Frictionless FX: Building Borderless Stablecoin Infrastructure

Hello everyone. Um, I hope you are more resistant to heat than I am because for me this is like too much already. But yeah, I'll try to survive. Um, great to be here. Great to be here again.

We're trying to be uh present at this at this conference pretty much every single time for the past couple of years. It's always great conferences. It's always great um conversations and I'm hoping this one is going to be one of the highlights um as well. So my name is Matt. IDBD for Redstone, which is an Oracle provider.

And with me, I've got a set of uh great panelists here. So, I'll let you guys give a one minute intro to yourselves. Um, starting with Marcus here. Perfect. And I can probably be a bit quicker because I just talked about Mentor a bit.

My name is Marcus. I'm one of the founders of Mentor. With Mentor, we're building an onchain FX platform um that is globally accessible. I'm coming from an economics background, studied economics, did a PhD in economics, worked in traditional finance for a long time and then for the past seven years I I've been working on stable coin first in the cell ecosystem and now with mentor on a on a um crosschain platform. Um really looking forward to this one.

Thanks so much for having me. Uh hi everyone. I'm Rob Hadock. I'm a general partner at Dragonfly. Um, I lead all of our stable coin, market structure, CFI, some of our D5 stuff.

Um, yeah, that's me. Um, if you don't know us, we're about four billion under management. Um, we invested through series B. Um, and love talking about stable coins. Anas, uh, founder and CEO at Bastion.

Have been in the crypto space for quite a bit of time. Um, more recently, uh, was chief security officer at A6NC crypto. uh and started Bastion as a regulated crypto as a service and stablecoin as a service infrastructure provider. So we issue essentially for uh large corporates uh stable coins and uh help them integrate crypto capabilities and stablecoin capabilities. Hi, I'm Martin.

I'm currently BD for curve finance and I my background is uh onchain. I'm have more than a decades of living on chain and uh since four years I'm like full-time I work for different towers and now I'm uh helping curve on the BD size side. Perfect. Thank you so much. So starting off with um I believe something that we can we can all agree upon which is um which is multi-stable coin future that's that's coming or is already already here.

The first question I've got is for Rob. Um I would like to ask for your I guess investment POV when it comes to um you know we are seeing JP Morgan with JPM that was like 2018 now uh JPMD so the tokenized bank deposits we expect other banks to follow when it comes to uh joining the stable coin craze right now uh either from the US from Europe from Asia of course. So from your investment perspective, if you wanted to bet on the infrastructure for um the multi-stable coin future, would it be a venture bet or would it be a liquid buy? Would you say that the infrastructure already exists or do we need new types of primitives to be able to to serve that future? Yeah.

Um so there are certain things of which are going to probably exist in some sort of you know bank infrastructure that is probably you know closed loop and maybe not on public blockchains that will continue to exist right so JP Morgan has been doing a pilot with uh the the monetary authority of Singapore uh with the central bank there to do you know kind of basically a crossber transaction um you know primarily around like large like bank deposits right like that will probably continue to happen And we will see a lot of the banks work within, you know, that type of framework. But if I think back to what do what do I think stable coins do? I think stable coins are essentially programmable money that are going to allow for a completely new onchain uh financial ecosystem to be built, right? Like they are the base layer for everything else that will be built. And whether that's US dollars or, you know, and obviously this this panel is about FX, you know, any other um stable coin as well.

And I think about okay, well like what are banks good at? Well, you know what? They're really [ __ ] bad at tech. Like, they are awful, right? So, and I had a lot of people reach out and say about the the Fiserve announcement recently, and they're said, "Okay, Fiser has their own stable coin, and they're going to allow the community banks in the US to use them.

Like, is that and they have all this distribution. Is that good or bad for your your you know, venture bets?" And like, I don't know if people understand this, but like these the cl the the banking cores at these places, like they're not uh cloudnative. They fall over all the time. They a lot of things are built on top of hard codes.

In fact, I was talking to one um uh one one guy at a who who deals with a community bank who was saying that they hardcoded that they cannot do any settlement on the weekend and they literally built their entire infrastructure on top of that and they do not know how to change it and like not have the entire banking core fall over, right? Like this is the type of stuff that we're dealing with. And so clearly you need new people to come and build better infrastructure and better technology if we're going to, you know, do what I think is going to happen with a stable coin future. Perfect. So plenty of opportunity just to help the big boys actually um use the rails that we are so native to.

The next question would be to Nasim. Um Nim, you're in the in the business of of making new stable coins as I as I understand uh the vision behind Bastion. So how how would that work in your specific perspective when it comes to uh liquidity? Isn't your, you know, your your business vision is it, isn't it directly leading to what everybody calls liquidity fragmentation, but in general creating a lot of very illquid markets that can't really be used in a you know sizable manner? Yeah, I mean it's it's the the hardest question.

I would say that um stable success uh is very much a distribution and liquidity game. um the distribution typically the larger players already have that covered. They can actually hot swap uh stable coins as part of the the money flows uh that they manage fairly easily like less easily on the banking side, more easily on the tech kind of large consumer tech side just because as Rob was mentioning, they're just better at it and they can actually have the the engine that actually powers the the settlement um be hot fairly fairly easily. um liquidity is the the hard answer. And so I think that whenever you're you hear about the large u you know in the news like large player X wants to not X the company but XYZ wants to launch their actual uh their their own stable coin.

They're not necessarily thinking about only using their own stable coin. do understand that the vast majority of the liquidity especially in the emerging markets where people are hard to reach and where the value of stable coins is uh you know even greater. They need to leverage existing stable coins that have already this liquidity built right and for them to actually concentrate the liquidity that they would have to build that they would have to manage to that they would have to incentivize with a single asset that is easily accessible. Um and whether that looks like an onchain uh liquidity or you know something that is managed by themselves at the end of the day they understand that they need to build for example strong liquidity at their own stable coin and USDC their own stable coin USDT and then leverage the existing um you know rails that have been built um as part of all the on and off ramps and exchanges and so on that we all know. Um so we're seeing a lot of that uh to at least do the work of bootstrapping the liquidity it would be concentrated at the like branded stable coin to USDC for example and then leveraging the all the the the paths that USDC has already built.

Would you call it then a major tailwind for the existing existing stable coins um when it comes to you know I still have to be paired against the biggest assets right now. So I still have to either hold them or I still have to market make the mark the the markets against them. Would you say that this will strengthen the position of USDC USDT on the market against the competitors that still have to kind of be you know in that game with them? I think that the network effects around liquidity are just gigantic and they probably grow faster than the new entrance can eat their lunch or at least like that's what we've seen so far. Um you know if you look at PYUSD, if you look at all the other stable coins that have been uh attempted so far, you can see that the growth uh the even the relative growth of uh Tedar and and and USDC have been you know outpacing them by an order of magnitude.

And so I do think that the the stickiness at the especially on offramps in emerging market is absolutely gigantic and it can play with the redemption fees essentially to dictate how much flows out of the ecosystem and at which pace and forcing certain relationships and partnerships to be built with with them. I don't know if that growth point's true. Like if you look at the growth of like RLUSD, M0, um you know, Agora now like and you look at the the recent growth like we we think about it for the last like you know call it like 3 to 6 months like as everyone's starting to get this like fever like we are starting to see the relative growth get bigger as more people just basically try to like bootstrap and and uh I mean really like dog dog food their their own their own products. How much do you think Okay. So on the supply side, sure.

How how do you think about actual usage as part of uh money flows, right? What do you what do you use as a KPI for example for for success? Yeah, I mean I'm I'm using TVL or or issuance right now. Um I think obviously hopefully it's all you know eventually real world transactions obviously as well. But I I get your point that like okay well tether's being used more for you know peerto-peer transactions and C5 trading and USDC and DeFi and um and things like that.

But I I do I do see a world where everyone is starting are trying to dog food like their own usage, right? Yeah. And what we're going to see is like a a lot of people to your point about PY. I think that has more to do with like PayPal just not being a you know particularly good at figuring out how to put this in like if they just put it into Zoom right now and they get into every wallet for every single person who's doing remittance in Zoom, it'd be a multi-billion dollar asset. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think everyone needs to dog food or incentivize their own usage because often the the infrastructure is not ready that it's actually easier and faster to actually use stable coins for these use cases. The infrastructure in many cases is then still either uh so hard to to access or in in many cases simply just doesn't uh exist that it's even though theoretically stable coins are cheaper and easier to use, it is in reality it is not. Um and and when it comes to for example local currency, stable coins, we have seen um okay before we actually can go there and have stable coins in many different currencies um we we first actually need to to build that infrastructure that they're easily accessible because it doesn't really exist yet.

We cannot just say okay now we have stable coins and now everyone is doing FX trading on chain. No, the the infrastructure is is just not there. And then of course liquidity has something to do with it. And liquidity in the end means being able to access the right amount of assets at the right price. I mean for for certain prices for 88 8 uh an apartment here in Khan is also very liquid.

Someone would buy it immediately but it needs to be the right amount and the right price and often basically these markets are still not ready for institutional liquidity so that the right size can be actually accessed at the right price. So this is why I think we need to build the infrastructure that then this can actually happen on an institutional level. I think this is a a great segue and Marcus before I come back to you specifically on that because you sort of touched upon this a little bit in your in your speech. Um let me actually ask Martin on on a more technical level just because uh when it comes to curve your guys' stable swap algorithm um it's very battle tested at this point. you could you could tell especially for stable coins that kind of look similar from the outside when it comes to the risk profile or their behavior.

But then in a world 10 10 years from now when we have like really different types of stable coins on chain with super different risk profiles would you say that the same kind of technical infrastructure that we have right now the this algorithm would it be enough or would we have to add some more variables to it? would we have to change it anyhow? Yeah, this is evolving. You know, Mitch G the presentation today of YB and the crypto swap, the new version of crypto swap where you can shift basically the density with that kind of donation is also very suitable for ethics. Basically this one of the core like we as curve we are waiting for onchain ethics like since quite some time and what ID see is more some kind of hyperolization basically in in a moment and uh but it's also some kind of bootstrapping issue in the sense um yeah I think we we steadly improve our technology and the crypto swap version two is a very good solution for this because at the end I guess there will be we go for the biggest market first.

So there will be some yeah euro um USD is like one of the biggest market I guess in ethics. So he's basically the the pot to win and if we are able to construct one um big pool whoever then yeah we pair with then we have a chance to have a very good solution and yeah it's not that we stab is something we have since like the start cryptops around since like quite some time but now we're still improving uh our infrastructure and I think we have good uh we on track basically. Okay. So, it's a it's always going to be an ongoing battle with uh like trying to kind of frontr run the market and have the the right infrastructure when the boom happens. So, so then um Marcus coming back to you and especially the the the angle very interesting for me here is the the regional aspect.

I know you guys are very big on the regional regional stable coins in Latin America, in Africa, in other places in the world. So talk to me more about what really is the added complexity when you want to switch something like a JP Morgan coin or whatever stable coin issued by a by a US based bank with something local something based out of LATAM for example or or Africa. how much of added complexity that is and what is the kind of infrastructure on the technical level but I assume also on the legal level or or the operational level that we have to have in place. Um yeah and I think for for quite some time um oracled pools have been not super popular in in the field because of course how how an AMM and constant pricing models work. Um it was really a great new infrastructure on chain to to trade new types of assets that are very volatile that uh maybe um are assets that only exist on chain and where also price finding happens on chain but how I what I mentioned before also in in the talk in in the FX markets this is different price finding happens offchain um the price of yen in pound uh is is uh determined at least for now offchain So I think um the friction then often is to go between one currency to another.

Currently on chain the prices are just not the most efficient prices. You need a lot of liquidity providers. You need a lot of arbitrageers that actually step in and balance these onchain pools so that they match the off-chain prices. You need in the end a lot of of trading um happen. And then with newer infrastructure um that works crosschain on many networks including Redstone for example providing um FX prices um now we can actually set up a different way how like where an oracle resets these pools at the offchain price in a very high in very high intervals and only in between these intervals these these markets can fall back to an AMM solution but you actually have the that resetting at at really high intervals so that you actually can provide a bit or actually much more efficient FX market on chain.

Um and then these in these regions that I mentioned um the interesting thing is that in many of these regions or that you mentioned in many of these regions don't even have any FX market. So the dollar is is popular for many reasons also for the reason that it's relatively stable um when it comes to purchasing power. But the dollar is also popular because in many of these regions you actually have to do an FX swap always via the dollar because there are no direct pairs that that exist in in these regions. I I mentioned in a talk before there is just no Kenyan chilling to Ghana and Sadi market although there's a lot of businesses that work in Kenya and in Ghana and have to do the FX conversion or that have to do FX hedging and so on on a constant basis and web 3 in general is perfect infrastructure for that because in contrast to that um offchain FX market it's available 24/7 and it's available with a common infrastructure in every country so I think there's huge um potential uh in in there to bring this on chain. Perfect.

And bringing that back to to Nasim, we've talked about the deep liquidity that you've got to establish with your own stable coin against the biggest ones right right now. Um to be able to have a market and an asset that's actually usable. But from your guys' perspective at Bastion, is there anything more there on the technical side of things that you are also I guess working on or helping the issuers with to be able to do it or would you say that as long as you have the liquidity it should be all you know all usable all good for the user? Yeah. Um the uh a lot of the kind of a lot of the the companies that uh we're talking to are also pretty excited about leveraging the assets um in a way that is uh where for the first time they don't necessarily need to um have the tradeoff like a hard compromise be be done between liquidity and and yield at the the treasury uh kind of like the treasury management level.

Um and so for them either holding the the stable coin within the global corporate treasuries because you typically have like you know large overarching group a bunch of sub entities all around the world constantly moving money around and for them the the process of um you have a corporate kind of like treasury on of one entity selling that into local fiat sending that across the globe repurchasing somewhere else uh is like extremely expensive. Uh something that we're discussing with pretty much every single company is having the ability to settle directly not necessarily at the at the stable coin level. Um but having that done at the reserve asset level. So the tokenized treasuries where you would have the send essentially on the tokenized treasuries uh behind the scenes of from the reserve to the corporate treasury um and then the the stable coin being burned without necessarily having to have any sort of swap to a local currency uh or like a send to the to the local entity. So I think that not necessarily just thinking about the stable coin FX uh where it's stable coin to stable coin or stable coin to fiat or you know having the stable coin sandwich between two fiat currencies but sometimes just having tokenized treasuries that can also be sent across the globe 24/7 and used as a settlement asset for the corporate like uh intracorporate use cases or intercorporate use cases is actually a pretty big one and a lot of them want to expand that to the merchants that they work with if they all share um you know let's say that they all use bit behind the scenes or like some uh you know common type of asset that forms both the the corporate treasury on one end and then the reserve or the stable coin on the other end and there's interoperability and they can actually optimize the flows that way um so those are some of the things that we work on integrations with on onchain effect systems I think everyone is looking for just some smart order routing um at the you know built-in as part of all the the flows that they have for on-ramping off ramping um yeah I think that like those are probably the the biggest things that we're we're working on um when it comes to the um the intracorporate level uh or or the use case um DTCC out of the US they've made um they've released something called the great collateral experiment lately which is basically uh this this big um simulation of showing how an investment bank can work on the blockchain rails.

And they show in real time how different that would be if um a subsidiary out of London could actually touch the liquidity of the the main um the main body of the bank in the US in real time. And this is exactly what you what you were describing here just like moving moving the treasuries on the decentralized ledger uh as opposed to trying to um to do the accounting on both sides. It's very very fascinating to to watch it in real time and they've done a great job in in actually explaining this. So highly recommend it. Um, good Rob.

When it comes to kind of staying still in the in the realm of infrastructure here, as you know, institutional FX traders um are very much used to to very deep deep liquidity and and tight spreads. But then uh here over in the the blockchain world, we are still kind still kind of uh figuring things out when it comes to uh capital efficiency for traders and when it comes to maintaining deep liquidity for markets. So how far away are we in 2025 from actually onboarding the FX market? Like maybe totally on on the blockchain rails. what has to happen on the technical side of things um to be able to serve that kind of use case with the same kind of UX for the institutional players to be trading on.

Yeah. Um it's a good question. I mean there's kind of two parts to that question which is okay well like tokenized treasuries. Uh to your to your first point I'm sure don't know if anyone here is and I'm sure there are people in here kind of run um you know a a some sort of you know protocol that is uh trying to mint and redeem you know call it like BL or one of the large tokenized treasuries. It's actually quite easy to get into Biddle.

It's actually really [ __ ] hard to get out of it in any size right. Um and there's a real problem right now that you if you want to run it fully on chain, you just cannot get the size to grow into any sort of scale that you would need for you know real businesses that to actually come on chain and and you know FX traders and the the type of markets that we want to see. I think on the FX side uh what we're really seeing is we are starting to see um pricing that is better than call it you know these like uh you know multi-deer single dealer like FX platforms that exist um you know kind of in the traditional FX pl uh world but that pricing is better not be not particularly when there's call it you know two in any real size number one and two when there's like two tokenized uh assets it's it's often happening I mean, because you have somebody in some local um jurisdiction who has a really really good partnership with a, you know, FX broker who wants to be in USDC and wants that, you know, USDC and that dollar access. And so they're willing to give you call it like, you know, whatever the peso or which is a really deep market or you depending on where you at for relatively cheap. Um, and we've seen a bunch of people raise capital who are, you know, essentially just trading desks with like good partnerships and an API and, you know, the venture capitalists act like it's like some sort of tech revolution.

uh and it's and it's not right. It's a just a financial product. I think the on the FX side, it really is just a liquidity but gets liquidity and it really is just being able to bring transparency and being able to bring kind of better you know APIs, better sort of like plugins and SDKs for people to access that market because the the you know the single dealer multi-eller platforms people exist today just are are really opaque and they are really they're built into old infrastructure. But as that starts to happen, we we'll we'll see this pick up. actually don't think this is a particularly hard problem to solve.

Uh it's just one that needs more usage. And then um Martin coming back to you kind of a segue from my previous question as well about the the algorithm. So the second question is is more about um I'd say liquidity. How do you guys think about uh just that? So making sure that whatever you can you can uh whatever assets you can use on curve the liquidity is big enough for institutional players to actually be able to to trade uh you know stable coins in size.

Uh either tying that to the um to the project that Mitch just just announced or in general when it comes to the strategy that you guys have for you know for the bigger bigger capital to be on boarded on chain. Yeah, inde I think in this sense we we see us as a infrastructure basically. So we don't we are not the market makers in this you know it's like all people make the markets on curve so we shift this to partners and they do it for us so they do it for we because it's a permissionless platform we don't even know basically who they are sometimes we know it them but sometimes we don't so we try just to be having the best argos for this kind and we still we are a technology company so we try to have the technology and there's still like design space to to make it better and I think uh Mitch showed like maybe several time that he's always able to ship something on top which is not easy. So it's uh that's basically our our how we work. So we we don't we we we we advise people if they ask us how they should it build best but somehow um yeah all are doing it for us and would you envision any form of opinion nation on your guys' side forming you know on top of that.

So what I'm what I'm talking about here is we've seen that especially in in in lending market lately coming from this very permissionless open model or you could say you know semi-permissionless um the old compound and a model of a a single pool and then we've seen things like morpho actually create this underlying level of uh permissionless markets but then adding the uh complexity level on top so kind of tying it all back together in the form of vault curators that actually are opinionated when it comes to what types of collateral they accept, what types of collateral they don't accept, the risk profile and stuff like this. Would you see when it comes to the different types of stable coins coming to curve in the future, um would you say that there is a space to kind of follow a certain path like this or would you rather rather stay on this very basic unopinionated level and just provide the best possible basic infrastructure for for trading stables? Yeah, of course we study this these ideas basically but the an AMM is very simple in in the sense that creation is what we can create based on AMM is the density of the liquidity and SEO is quite easy in this cryptop is more difficult to handle but somehow what we think about if there's like a model where we basic can have creators and they optimize the pools because you start with a certain size and then it also depends on the volatility of the assets which kinds of uh density you need and we basically we have like llamaris basically who's like um they're looking at the at the big pools who make a lot of revenue for the curve dow they optimize them but somehow we also think about maybe finding some kind creation model creation model that they somebody else can basically change this parish because now all the parameters change have to be over the hour so we make a vote and then then we made we adopt this as we change And this is not like it doesn't scale very well. So we think about having this more scale. So basically some asset issuers or mark makers we can um delegate the right to them to optimize the pools and that's uh yeah that's one way for us to to grow basically that we we yeah always do it fast and we think about this also on the AMM level basically.

The the reason I asked this because we are kind of also having quite a lot of strategic discussions over at Redstone in terms of what the basically the future of pricing looks like especially with things like let's say there is you know thousands of stable coins 10 years from now from banks from fintex you name it and then there's perhaps going to be a role of you know the role that Moody's agency right now has when it comes to credit ratings there's probably going to be an equivalent or even maybe the same company actually you know assessing the uh you know the default probability of a of a stable coin because you know when the JP when JP Morgan creates a stable coin like it's it's not going to default everybody knows that but when when the bank of of Kenya or a smaller country in general does it well the risk profile is probably going to be different so this perhaps creates a new variable in the whole pricing um and the whole pricing equation where you maybe have to adjust the price uh based on that probability as well. And I I kind of think about you know the the curation model that Moro has right now in a kind of a similar way. So you construct a portfolio as a as a vault curator of perhaps similar or different assets based on like risk you know risk but agree yeah but the risk you know you see the quality in the in the um what you have to pay for liquidity and this builds a market price it's not like we said not the price there's a market price if it's an open system people bring their asset to this pool as long as they think it's a fair market price so this is like the done by the market. We don't we can't set like caps on on uh um uh rewards on liquid liquidity because then yeah that's not our it's a market price forming and we see this all the time you know yeah better quality stable coins they have a lower price and and new ones who are untested they have uh they have to pay more for the liquidity for the same amount of liquidity basically. Yeah.

And if the Bank of Kenya for example believes that the asset is that they issue is underpriced, they can al always, you know, make the market themselves, right? Like they can always buy when it's too low and then actually have the redemption for the equivalent amount of currency themselves. Like you you have a lot of issuers that that will do this job of, you know, making the market and exploiting the inefficiencies on on the assets themselves. There's no reason not to. they're uh nearly zero fee, you know, on-ramp pay and off-ramp, which means that they have access to the equivalent assets.

Um yeah, like you can make the market yourself even as an issuer. I mean, like just to put a very fine point on this, like not all stable coins should trade at the same price. There's been like a lot of conversation about, okay, well, we need a clearing house and they need to be, you know, uh, inter not just interoperable, but they need to be able to like swap one for one if we're going to have with, you know, all of these different stable coins and we're going to make sure that they all work together. And like that's just not true. Like that's not how finance works.

These are different assets. They have different backing. They have different collateral. They are regulated differently. They are um issued by people who have better or worse credit, right?

And so they're going to trade differently. It will look like an FX market, right? Like it that's what it's going to look like. And I can see you you really want to talk about this, but the um that like that's what it's going to look like. And we need the people in the infrastructure to run that FX market.

But this idea that we're going to have some sort of like, you know, uh clearing house that is going to make all the stable coins like, you know, a onetoone transferable, this it's it's kind of it's fantasy. It's it belies how finance works. Agree. And I'm I really want to talk about this because I think this is a really really important point that these are um sometimes assets that are not traded at the right price and we've seen this in the past in many instances. So for example when Silicon Valley Bank went sideways then the price of USDC adjusted uh for a brief amount of time.

Um I think for many like or these stable coins often also um are called fiatbacked stable coins but in reality they are backed by credit and credit has a credit risk and then in the Silicon Valley case the credit risk materialized and then actually the price adjusted but it was not the case that ahead of time actually USDC was trading at a discount because they had too much collateral locked up in credit at Silicon Valley Bank and I think it's a really really important point that that um that The market here actually has to become more efficient so that these assets trade at the right price. In general, I think the price will come down for onchain liquidity because what I I have the feeling the cyclical of our industry somehow is hindering the growth basically because every time we go in a bullish scenario, liquidity gets very expensive on chain and this basically is then hindering the growth because then every new engine has to be the same has to bring the same pay the same price of liquidity and it's pretty high so people can't enter the market and I think it's very important to have more liquidity or more competition, more liquidity on chain because I guess over time price will come down on stable coin liquidity and they have to because otherwise it's just yeah it's not healthy for the overall market long term basically. I mean this is kind of getting off topic so you can stop me but like this is also a very important point which is that like right now for like real world usage of stable coins liquidity is really expensive right like if you try to people are trying to do things like you know provide basically credit for like preunding of actually like paying for stable and paying for things in stable coins and we're talking people are you know charging 15% plus like token rewards on top. So the liquidity providers are expecting a 20 25% all- in return maybe even higher to to go and provide this liquidity and like that makes payments uneconomical if that's going to happen onchain and so what we really need is we need people who do like you know uh credit card receivable securitizations who do that offchain to be able to come onchain and we need the right infrastructure we need the right people to bring them onchain and we need those people to feel comfortable providing the type of liquidity in obviously things like curve but then as we think about like okay well do we want to bring you know the trillions of dollars of payments that are happening and uh offchain onchain and my world I I think that's coming but like this is one of the most important issues that we have right now. So a good segue to last question as we are getting close to uh to our time looking at you know the future let's say 18 or or 24 months from now and maybe starting starting with you Marcus what would be the single biggest breakthrough that would have to happen for um the you know multi-stable coin FX to really be seamless as seamless as as as possible.

I think um as we mentioned before first of all infrastructure needs to be fixed um on chain so that actually then in 24 months from now uh institutions are actually ready or or willing to to do the bring all of the FX trading on chain. And for us this means we need to provide the right markets that are more accessible and more efficient in terms of pricing because yeah without without a a good price there's then probably also no liquidity. Um so for me it's like a big question of infrastructure um and probably also regulation and other things but for me it's like infrastructure is very important to actually um get to an institutional FX market on chain in 24 months. The regulation is obviously a big part of this but you know let's put that behind us that's boring. Um the the main thing that matters is just like real world usability and so that people can actually stay in stables on the other side cuz like what we see right now in like non- US dollar currencies and even in the euro which is the the largest um uh stable coin outside of US dollars like people aren't really staying in those stable coins, right?

They're not really using them. Like you know we we have a portfolio company that's doing you know uh like Brazilian like US dollar to Brazilian realale to to euro for a company and and nobody wants to stay in Euro. they want to then use step instead to go put it into their the Euro bank account. But if they get the USDC back, they actually will stay in the USDC because they people want to actually use that. And so we need a uh more people to be able to have ways to use and have stable coins be accepted in those other currencies in these local markets.

And if that happens, then people will stay in stables, then it becomes cheaper and liquidity will get much larger. And until that time happens, everyone's just going to be quoting, you know, some sort of uh um fiat FX pair and then, you know, swapping directly into a bank account, which is what every time you put money through yellow card, that's what's happening. I was actually about to say exactly the same thing as uh Rob, regulatory, but uh boring for for everyone in in here. uh just uh for context for uh everyone because there is this um I call that the the time to live of stable coin for the the stable coin to stay in the form of stable coins for as long as possible. you need to just incentivize essentially the the time to live uh to to increase.

Um and in order for the TTL to increase, you need um just distribution more more availability of uh uh of wallets globally uh to receive and and to send. Um and so for that to happen uh you need the large corporates uh who have this existing distribution both on the consumer side and on the merchant side to be able to send and receive stable coins. uh and they get comfortable with once the regulations are in. So that's the first one. The second thing that I'm hearing uh the most is uh spendability and so cards I think stable coin link cards are probably and making stable coin link cards as ubiquitous as possible is is going to be extremely important.

So very very bullish on you know rain and and and bridge and others essentially pushing in this direction. We're facilitating that through partnerships for all the companies essentially that we work with because they need to have more expendability via via card. But it needs to actually be on chain and not be wrapping an issuer bank and then swap into a fiat like like the bridge card. 100%. We'll get there.

I guess uh it's more maybe a wish, but I would like to see one non-doll stable coin who has like half a bill billion like TBL somehow. And I don't know if it's the euro. time Euro has like regulationally and now the show is in the US more maybe it's a emerging market one and I think this would be a good showcase for everyone uh where the uh where the space is heading but I I I think it takes a little bit longer than yeah one year or two maybe we are at time everybody so thank you so much for your attention and thanks to the panelists for great insights [Applause]