ETHWarsaw 2023: Governance Panel - Just DAO it the right way

hi everyone thank you for staying a little bit later for this panel I know that it's been a pretty long day today at the conference so our panel is going to be focused on governance it will take an hour and I think we'll have time for some questions at the end my name is Karina I am your moderator today and a little bit about me is I have some Dao and governance experience as well I was before um in the growth team maker Dao after that I started my own consulting company and recently last week actually I joined the defiant as the new head of growth so this is me and today we have um these wonderful experts in their fields from the web free space we have Muhammad from ens um hi actually I would love for you all to introduce uh yourselves sure uh I'm uh full stack developer in so doing pretty much everything like protocol infrastructure sometimes uh the governance tooling and everything yeah thank you um I'm julan zosi I run goem Foundation like the story of goldem foundation is so complicated that I will skip it here I just mention that we both um our main project is is octant which is a platform for um Community funding uh of um public goods project and also like a revenue generating for glm token holders um and also we did like quite a lot of research of other aspects of governance for our projects but this is like a mostly theoretical still like we you know like an you said expert so expert does not have to have like a practical experience thank you hi hi my name is Chris I'm from L2 beit uh if you don't know L2 beit you definitely should check it out especially if you're using l2s and as Alit we are delegates in uh many protocols including arbitrum optimism hop Unis Swap and probably some more coming soon uh yeah and I'm leading the governance so I I am the delegate from elit hi everyone Bianca bu here head of developer relations at Luxo you saw my column my colleague colum earlier so luo it's a L1 evm compatible Focus focused on Creative economies and also founder of Dev uni where we teach people how to start in developer relations thank you very much for the cro and I would like to start this panel with a question that I really really love and the context for it is that when I started working in a Dao it wasn't even a very big thing in crypto yet and nobody really understood what a DA is is I had to explain what the hell I'm doing to my parents and in my case this took an 8-hour Drive where everybody was locked in a car and they had nowhere to run for me to explain it to them um but I would like to ask you how would you explain governance and Dows to sort of a 5-year-old or a parent uh because I feel like summarizing this kind of work is really important especially if we want to expand the the work that we're doing with uh new governance tools who wants to start I want start I can start so like I I don't think that there is a single description of the Dow because it depends on what the da actually is in question uh however when I describe what I'm doing like I'm I'm simply describing that what I'm doing is like coordinating and decision making within a group of people and uh depending on what exactly I'm explaining it's usually also with some stake at hand that that needs to be governed so yeah that's B basically decision making uh and I I think that the closest metaphor or closest you know uh something that is familiar to everybody is politics simply so we are experimenting with politics personally I think I would probably use an example so I would say something along the lines like you have a group of people sometimes these people can be spread all over the world and they have like a common goal that they're working on and the difference from a business for example a traditional business is that no one is in charge so instead everyone votes and based on the results of those votes then they use computer software to kind of execute those choices so uh I try to explain many things to my parents but never thought about all uh and uh so if I would try to explain I think it will be not that hard because I'm living in a country that the the nepotism is just super high and you know like we have rules but these rules for not not for everyone so we have rulers these rulers are quite VIP what country is that turkey okay yeah and uh what I would say probably you know like think a world there are rules but not rulers and I also probably would give some sort of examples uh like and it will be possibly from the you know like the nature like a swarm intelligence like you know how bees are working how the fishes are working or the ants you know like there are like really simple rules you need to follow there is no rulers that telling you like do this do that but they are just sharing all the information and all the intelligence together when there's a food there's a food and the the dress just goes and just grab the food so they you know keep living so I think I would go with that thank you yeah I I really like that definition and but I don't really like the term um da I I think this like a little bit misleading but I think it comes from the like desire of our space to have um a ways of like a deciding about things because if you if you if you think like what the centralization really is on the like a philosophical level I I I I think it is about like a putting the the power into the hands of the people or the users in term of like a software product and and then you know how it is implemented in a form of a governance that can be named da or you know whatever or or whatever other name is like the implementational detail but this is in fact about like you know empowering like this these people who are not empowered in the in the Legacy model MH can I ask you to elaborate why why did you say that the term da is misleading in your opinion because I I I think the ER This this term is like der from the centralized autonomous organization as I think um I believe it is more a description of the technical implementation of the concept and not the description of the concept itself so so you can have like a Dows about like many different things many different governance models Dows that would I can imagine if Dow that would replicate the some some parts of the thing that that that Muhammad does not like about turkey so so so so so this is like a a rather like a technical like a cut cut all term yeah and and then and then what I'm fascinated about are like a different like a mechanism design different like a procedures or algorithms you can use to solve like a governance problem s i very much agree with that view actually I feel like we're in the state of the Dows today we're kind of missing the a in Dao like the autonomous part because we usually decentralization is about in in community is about involving a lot of people and the autonomous part is about not involving as few people as possible for decision- making um I'll also give you my own term that I use for Dow uh for people normally I just try to explain it like imagine if you owned a stock in Apple but you could also see realtime data on what's going on inside apple and you could also use that stock to vote on what should happen next in apple something like this okay um and then we've seen sort of the rise of the Doos maybe around 2021 we've seen a lot of communities started starting it it's a little bit of a buzzword as well and and I've personally seen a lot of use cases or uses where protocols or DBS don't or communities don't necessarily need a DA or a governance model with onchain voting for that what are your opinions on the actual use use cases for governance voting and when is it needed for a business ens um so like it's really depend on the use case I would say so the is a protocol so it's just applies very well you know when there's a you know like the governance uh they just giv giving a decision about how the protocol Works how the smart contracts needs to be updated the because you know like we have the upgra upgradability of the the smart contracts level so for us the the lines are pretty clear and probably I would I couldn't generalize the you know like the way how the governance should work for every everyone or everything and for un it just works fine anyone else I if the question is like when do you need governance I yeah yeah think when is need you you always need some some kind of governance and there is like a great term by Cory doov where which is like a called entific of um a platform and basically like the concept boils down to um a notion that if the platform has too much power then it's starting abuse that power towards the users or the clients and it becomes like a shitty platform that that drives on the network effect and like a monopolistic position and and and then obviously you need like the the governance for that probably like a governance from the users really and um what sort of governance that of course depends on the case but I think that at some point you know like you need that governance from the people who are most interested in a given like a software product like a platform protocol uh to prevent that thing turning against them because I I think the the what we could see over the like a many many years of like the um capitalism is that like a companies turn against their customers when whenever they they can like extract more profit so so so the this this model does not work well in the in the in the in in the monopolies in the asymmetry of information and in many other cases that's a good point yeah like I I basically agree and uh I also agree that the dowo like the term Dow is basically so overloaded and it's so cryptic that it actually creates more confusion that that helps uh and for me like where do we need governance everywhere where we have something to govern so interesting fact for everybody outside of Poland and outside of waro is that we are actually here right here we are in the inside one of the biggest Dows that I I've seen because interesting fact for you is that in warso we have something that is called citizens budget so basically there is a budget reserved for citizens to decide what they want to spend it on and citizens actually vote every year on projects like everybody can Pro provide some idea for a project that budget should be uh funded with that it should be funded from this budget and then citizens vote on the projects that they like and after that those projects get funded so we have a waro dow at some kind like with three million voters and we did have Dows even in software before like 20 years ago when we were developing Linux different kinds of Linux uh distribution flavors each of those distributions was a dow like when we were developing Linux P for for example in Poland we made decisions simply we didn't have voting mechanisms we didn't have Smart contracts to actually automate how the decisions are being executed but we did decisions simply on uset and in you know in private email communication but they were also D and we were governing this public good which was a Linux distribution and that it's exactly what we are doing right now for example in optimism arbitrum and so on we are doing exactly the same but we have better tools and that's where I that's why I'm so passionate about governance actually because it allows us to experiment with better tools for decision making at scale amazing that's really interesting information and about the budget that you refer to in waro this is uh this is coming from the government or the local like I I think it's from the local like the the the capital government so it's from coming from the city city budget amazing I believe but I'm not sure really interesting um Bianca do you have anything to add yeah I also agree that some sort of governance is needed but this doesn't always mean that you need a token for that there are other uh means to to do that uh governance and also I would add that a lot of the So-Cal Dows we we have uh nowadays most a large number of them are actually communities so again you don't really need a token for that yeah and understandable so let's dive a little bit deeper into different governance tools and modalities to run a governance actually and we have one of the biggest Dows or well-known da CNS right here and I would definitely like to hear more about the governance tools that you're using and how is how does your process looks like sure uh so the in uh creat like we like released in like 8 of November in 2020 21 and on that time we did a huge air drop and there I got it yeah like thank you there was 137,000 addresses got the airdrop and then after just right after we just uh I mean the Dow just started to work on the Constitution and everybody who is involved in the air drop was eligible to just assign that Constitution so I actually want to show I just course oh you have it yes we have a constitution here guys this is DNS wow amazing that's a huge one like a uh I think uh 84,000 addresses signed for it oh wow yeah and like the these are just really simple rules like five five of them and it just tells about like it's super simple it tells about you know like how the how the ens St should behave amazing yeah how many copies do you have of this uh I think that this was the 50 but you like you can download the digital copy if you want and there's also another Edition this is just um how to say like some Premium Edition amazing yeah uh so uh yeah like after the Constitution we start to just divide the people to our working groups okay I'll just leave it here and cl her huh microphone closer oh sorry yeah uh so the there are working groups uh basically they are using the the regular forums you know like this discuss and the other forums uh or other communication channels to just work about the the the the the things they need to work like the ecosystem group and The Meta governance group and public good group so each of them has their own Duty and their own budgets uh and for the Dow itself we have two types of voting the offchain voting uh this is uh more like a social consensus W thing and we just use a snapshot for that and everything is kept in the ipfs and we have the onchain voting so we call them like an executive executive woing so the anything needs to be executed on the you know like the blockchain level the people are using to tly as a tool uh and uh apart from that the as an enss lab we also uh time to time you know like building our own tools to help the da to to better govern or or delegate the people and currently I'm working on one project called uh the multi delegation uh manager where is that so it's um uh like currently none of the the the delegation managers provide you to to the way to like multi- delegate the people like I have I have right to vote I have tokens and because the ens is the token weighted uh basically and uh the the in the current implementation in open Zeppelin you just go to the the delegation manager and just you just pick your delegate just only one or you have to divide your tokens and just uh manage all these assets uh instead we I'm just creating a sort of uh smart contract that will handle all this multi delegation from one address so you don't have to worry about you know like dividing your voting power basically doing it manually okay interesting now that you started speaking about delegation um Kristof here is a delegate in different ecosystems and we have seen actually a big rise in the demand for a delegation ation Services we've also seen a lot of new companies offering these delegation Services uh can you tell us more about how it how it is like to be a delegate and um what does it what are the responsibilities uh of a delegate this is actually a very interesting question because uh like I believe that we we need to discuss it more like what what does it even mean to be a delegate like what is expected of delegates like if I'm a delegate what what what what should I be expected to do and right now it's not very clear and if you look into all those systems and look into delegates there are sometimes random people who who like who became a delegate because they were popular in the time of err basically so so that's the history right now even and even though we do have some like there was this delegation week recently uh which which goal was to to you know encourage people to red delegate the their tokens to whoever they find more suitable than their previous delegate uh but like right now I would say that there are no clear expectations of what the delegate should do and we we need to change it basically because like we need to establish expectations of what delegates should do especially if those delegates are managing like $4 billion treasury like in bit's case or if they decide on the future of the protocol like optimis or bitro def then definitely like I would fact that if somebody has a voting power I treat this voting power that we have as a responsibility so and I experiment with different tools that allow me to actually be a better delegate so one thing that we recently launched and and we are experimenting with is office hours so similar as like the Parliamentary members that are open for the citizens to you know to come to them and raise some issues that they have so that they can raise it to the council we are trying to do something like that so right now at this moment we do have arbit room office hours for example and my friend from the team cus is available at Google meet if if anybody has any issues with arbitrum or any ideas for arbitrum that should be you know launched there uh anybody can come to this call and tell us that and and we are actually taking it further higher in the in the hierarchy but like speaking about tools I would say that the the most important tools for me is Telegram and zoom and Google meet like because of course those voting mechanism like T or open SE in Governor contracts these are important like are these are important especially in our space but governance is not about voting governance is about decision Mak making and coordination for some cause and for that we need to use old you know oldfashioned tools like discuss things meet in person simply raise issues get another people's opinion and so on and you you you asked me about like what what is expected to be a delegate I think that delegates should be serving for the community that they are being a delegate in so if I'm an arbit room I should be doing anything I can so that I can provide the community more power and more you know possibilities in order to execute actions thank you so much actually um I will ask one more question here I'm very curious um what is the process of selecting a delegate on in different ecosystems well it it depends on the system but usually like the usually it is that like during some time usually before the air drop uh there is a delegate thread on some discourse on some forum and people either nominate themselves or they nominate some other people it depends from system to system and and usually there is some form like there is some template that you have to use to say what you will be doing but this like for now all those templates lack the commitment that the person is you know do doing so what they will actually do and for me the most important things is commitment of time being a delegate and really actually doing your job as a delegate this requires a lot of time and also resources because you you don't know about everything like if even we at a bit we don't know everything so there are some things that we have to ask others about and probably maybe we should like get some paid opinion like we are knowledgeable about risks in L2 and you know security assumptions like attack vectors and so on but we do not know that much about economical models and economical parameters so for that but still we have we we are we are making decisions like if if I make a decision on an inflation uh of a token in in a given ecosystem how do I make the decision I should have a budget to to ask people that actually know about it to get some informed opinion on that amazing thank you and now that we talk about delegation and governance I just remembered you know at the very beginning and maker the very first problem that we had in our Dao was that the um the voting Ratio or the number of Voters was really really low a lot of people would own uh our token but very very few people would start voting and this is why then we introduced the delegation system so we'd have you know C specific delegates that would say okay if you guys don't have time to vote we're going to do it for you and we'll make responsible decisions um and we've all we were always you know in in search for ways to incentivize token hold ERS to participate in voting and I know Julian um you told us that at Golem Foundation you recently found a new way to also incentivize your token holders yeah so just a disclaimer like we we started but we are in the middle of the first Epoch so we are still like you know testing hypoth around around like how how it's going to work uh at the moment like the system works like that that you have to time lock your token like a colum Network token and then in time you're um you're entitled to the reward that the reward in in monetary terms is similar to reward you will get from E staking because this is done against like the E we stake and then the user can take decision whether to claim that uh e for themselves or donate them to projects if they donate them to like a public goods project then it gets like a matching fund funding from um from the rest of the of the pool of the each Stak and depending on the parameters that can be like even like a five to 10 times like the uh as much of this mat fun than than what they donate so so there are like the and and and so far you know like people are coming in locking for the first EPO so this is like is still growing we we admittedly don't have that many uh tokens locked yet we have about like um I think a couple hundreds of users uh and about like a 3% of the of the token total token Supply although I think the the number is here more import important than the total total Supply because you always have like a lot of things like a locked in the in in the cold wallets exchanges and so on um so but there are apart from the like obvious fact that this is like this like a monitor incentiv mechanism that you have to come and luck to to have this this yield mhm and then like when when the like a allocation Windows come when you're to take your yield you actually have to go there and see all the projects you can you can donate to and decide no no I'm not donating to those projects I'm taking everything for myself so this is like a first like I would say like a psychological like a trick that that you have to like make like a conscious decision that you know I'm not self selfing myself self and in fact the self taxing is the like a governance process because that's that's where you decide like which project will get how much um and and and and and the best part of it is that if you do not come in this like a certain window then you then you do not get this Tak uh this this reward so so you are left with nothing uh and and and and this is of course on purpose uh um then there are some other like a fancy mechanism on how the marginal effects work so this is like a more um um interesting for people they got like a bigger leverage at the smaller amounts of like a number of tokens uh locked in total so that incentivize coming to to to to to the project to to octant itself other thing is this like a that as I said this is like a Time paste so so things happens in time on the regular intervals and then you can got can got accustomed with that but I think at the end of the day you know this is like for people who are interested in that we cannot for people into governance if they are not really interested about that so this is why I think like things like the Del the delegation are extremely important perhaps we'll be doing something like that in octant in the in the future but my the general remark is that you know like if you look at democracies so so basically uh and and this is also how I think we should look at the at the governance so so governance is not necessarily about like taking like a really like a fine grain decisions on how to do things how to build things like a people usually don't have time and don't have like a competences to do that yeah and and and like a modern like a western democracies are not really built around like a choosing the best guy to do the job they are built around the notion of like of the peaceful change of the government so whenever people are pissed off with the government they can like induce like the like a change like um in in a peaceful way and then the government if the government knows that they will be changed eventually and there is like a rule of law then that uh limits what they what they can do and if that mechanism start failing like in Turkey or in Poland or in many places then you get into troubles so I would say that we sometimes would need like a very simple like a mechanism for governance to just achieve like a very very very great results if we only are able to build like a simple mechanism with simple incentives which is not actually the octant case but we have some other ideas that we that purly theoretical for now amazing thank you and for everybody in case you want to note he was speaking about octant doapp if you want to check out the app and the incentives that he was speaking I will give like the half an hour Presentation tomorrow at for like a main awesome yes what time excuse me what time uh 4 4 P p.m. 400 p.m. be here and listen about octant app amazing and uh actually what you said I I found this initiative quite interesting it's similar to governments when um at least in mova where I'm from uh the government allows me to think to give I think 2% of my taxes instead of them going to the government uh to donate them to a charity except I cannot take my taxes back in my case as a citizen and speaking of tokens actually what are your opinions do you feel like every da is not a DA until they have a token do you feel like uh tokens are important in now governance no I don't think the token is necessary like one of the OG's Dows like m Da like they didn't have token and still like they were probably one of the most successful ones personally I feel like it matters a lot what type of Da it is and what does the Dao do so for example in DS related to the defi world yeah in most of the cases it makes sense but for example for for a social Dow probably you don't need a token and for other use cases how do you incentivize people then what what kind of incentives do you feel like would be um for for Dow participants and sort of members I think uh reputation plays an important role uh here personally I'm bullish on Dows where you can have that are coming uh where we can have identifiable uh stakeholders and this is something that uh it's happening right now you can you can have this with the universal profiles uh on luxu for example so instead of having simply a key you can have like a smart contract account and what's interesting about that smart contract account is that you can have your identity so you can put unlimited meta metadata basically you can have like a profile you can have uh description tags links so it really allows you the flexibility to build an identity instead of only having a key so it's much more easier to kind of build a reputation and that's like your power yeah very good point and this is a question for everybody what do you feel like is the state of the Dows right now and and how do you feel about DS now and in the future fure do you have a optimistic um view over how things are developing so maybe in short like things are developing that's a good thing so I definitely see that you know we're going to see many many other use cases for the Dows and like they're going to be much more easier to manage and I always believe for example like um not everyone using computer you know like every day so we should definitely have this you know like this decision making much more easier as a tooling so we have mobile phones and like we should literally have you know like the tools for it and this is one thing and the another like the the the bad part of it so basically everything is unclear uh you know like regarding the lows and you know like uh like tax liabilities and everything or uh like regular liability so the the delegates or the voters do not know if anything will happen to them after the decision so this regulations should be in place then we may say more about you know what will what will be the future of the I guess understandable so you know if we replace D with governance then I'm optimistic um I in fact like the the potential of the ethereum as like a governance tool was one of the reasons why I got interested in it like a back in uh 2014 so this been a while and and I'm still waiting for you know like a uh something that will really scale and will really work we can see some like an early examples of successes we could you could see like a huge and really interesting like a d failers I don't know if who who who in the room remembers the the da like the not not not the da but the da actually the da was the thing that got me into crypto like I I was rejecting Bitcoin previously and I okay it was cool but not that much and then like when I first learned about the da like I was to like I was in of course like you know a month after that yeah so so so the da was like a the thing uh so if you don't know the story you should check it out but also like the that was like a years ago I when there was like a hype around the I I read like a blog post by vitalik who recommended by Daniel Suarez book I think that's the name of the guy called demon demon and yeah and and I read it and and I thought oh wow so this is what we are building um and and then later like a radical sorry is the book about governance or what is the book about yeah well it's you should read it like this is like this is like a this is like a no spoilers I would say like a technological Thriller but like a pretty good one um and then you know like the the the next building block for me like that this necessarily was like a radical um radical markets uh the book and and I think like we we have like a more or less like all the building blocks in place already to start building like a great governance solution I think the problem is that we don't really have like a things to govern in our space and that may sounds like a provocative but but I think that apart from like a protocols we don't have that many great projects that are not like you know uh financially oriented or like a for profit maximization that would make like a like a great uh governance um subject and this is why I got very much also with octant into like a this regeneration you know public good funding because I think that's where we can experiment with the governance method and will when we will figure out like the the next things I I'm not saying this is we don't have at all like the the great projects to govern we have there are you as it's one of the examples there are like many many others but um but in general we as the we are missing like a general use cases like a project that we would go outside of our space and the same is true for for governance because of that reason thank you so like I'm personally super bullish about Dows like I already mentioned that they Dow was something that brought me into crypto and I think that uh like when the society learns that we are not trying to scam everyone over there but we are actually using this technology to coordinate and to you know to achieve something some common cost there are so many use cases out there around us that that could actually facilitate this technology and those coordination mechanisms that like I can't imagine it not happening actually it is just a matter of time that people realize okay instead of doing those you know strange stupid crowdfunding things and then you know uh non-transparent like shady Shady processes behind the scenes of how to actually allocate allocate those funds we can do it in a transparent and effective way without paying everybody else to to just coordinate this from the technical standpoint like this will definitely you know this will definitely be a big thing and like I believe that there is and I believe that for the first time in in many many years even centuries we actually have the opportunity to experiment with politics on a scale with something at stake we are not you know we are not organizing our like hobbyist club we are organizing what are we going to do with a treasury of a you know $4 billion protocol how are we actually going to use it in order to grow the ecosystem how are we going to spend the revenue that this protocol is bringing like the the thing that you are doing is amazing like you're using those funds that you have to actually experiment with you know intents and uh coordination within people rpgfan house in in in optimism that divides where the RPGs is being allocated this is like one of the best experiments I've seen uh in in in recent years and you know I'm coming from the from the free software and open culture movements from the early 2000s and one thing that we lacked at that time was actually those models to sustain those systems we didn't have any any tools to actually you know make those those great projects long term um and usually there were captured by huge corporations anything of value has been captured by you know corporates and now we can do differently I don't think that we will actually end up differently but we at least have a chance of experimentation I also agree with experimentation and I think what we're going to see in the near future it's kind of a shift of where decisions are being made so right now most of the decision are still being made of chain uh snapshot is the most popular one I think in the future we're going to kind of slowly move to onchain um voting but to do that we need to ensure kind of two things first is like scalability of the blockchains and secondly uh low fees and I think we're working together as an ecosystem uh to tackle these two challenges and we're going to get there yeah absolutely agree any last words or predictions on or hopes about what do you hope with change in the state of the Dow and what do you hope to see in the future or to not see anymore I can start like I I really hope that we'll find new processes structures and we will experiment more with how to make those more effective and we shouldn't be afraid like of some centralization factors for example we shouldn't be afraid on establishing like working groups uh workforces to you know allocating budgets for specific tasks we should experiment more like there is too much you know too too much hesitance in the in the space of uh maybe you know well let's think it through no let's do it like let's let's let's try this and then if it fails let's try that one and then this one and we have we should have much more ideas and much more discussion about it uh so I'm super happy that we have a panel like this one and we should definitely have more and more of that uh yeah and I I believe that we will Pro we'll professionalize it a bit like we we will learn how to do it in a professional effective way and then everybody will be you know we be shocked that we used to do it in such a random um meaningless way thank you yeah I agree maybe sometimes we I mean that was my experience with d and not just th but any sort of new technology that came along um there are groups that are more idealistic and they might say like this is not decentralized enough or this is not um conf confirming with our ideology but I agree that we should just experiment and test out what works and then yeah scale from there thank you all very much uh we have a little bit of time for questions if anybody has any oh there thank you hey uh I have two questions first one is mostly related to the delegated uh part so if we we're talking about incentives and incentivizing uh users to vote if these users are being incentivized in any way and they are delegating their tokens to someone who is actually doing their work wouldn't that tap into potentially Securities or like tap into like how we test and wouldn't that represent a potential barrier later on since they are buying a token for a common kind of like entity they are expecting some type of incentive or expectation of profit maybe incentive and they are doing this or they expect this through the work of someone else who would be the person voting or actively participating in this my question the first question would be what are your thoughts on this if this might be something that might represent an obstacle later on or if this is just an erroneous stake and the second question or well yeah the second question was mostly on hold up I have it right here let's let's stop at the first one first does anyone want to take this question like you know one of the advantages living in Poland is that polish government could couldn't even spell ho not not even you know understanding it so we don't have to care about how we test as much uh I do see those risks I do see this you know potential um troubles with that but I like I wouldn't Hur it much at this moment probably it going to change from state to state so it's really hard to answer this question just directly but yeah as he said like there's always a you know uh this potential risk of yeah no yeah I I guess they could also be kind of like set up in places where it's allowed yeah exactly exactly but if I if I can add to this like I believe that this is something that we have to figure out like uh of course now we have those troubles with u legislation in Us and how they don't understand what we are doing and they're trying to basically use the old tools to our space but I I I treat it as you know some temporary burden that will that will pass simply like I I don't I I can't imagine a future in in which those you know this irrational uh troubles were persist like simply we will find a way to solve it to explain to those who are making decisions on top of our governments that we are not trying to do anything fishy we are actually doing good stuff and we are being more efficient in coordination and decision- making and that's what we are doing and we are not trying to scam people or your for us yeah I I want to add here I really agree with what he says we we see a lot of discussion with the SEC there's a lot of confusion around those but um I think every country will understand at the end of the day that if they don't collaborate and kind of adapt to the new times they will lose and they will scare off a lot of businesses and big investors from their country um I'm pretty sure there's many countries already in Europe where tokenized assets and uh digital assets are highly regulated and everything is very clear and this is exactly what we need I don't think the crypto space is running away from regulation I think we're welcoming it in a way that we want them to understand what we're doing like Kristof said trying to find the ground yeah perfect thank you and the second question a little more optimistic one uh what do you think or or do you all think account abstraction will have a big role in Dow like maybe making easy the participation in them or just kind of like more normies coming into the industry and and seeing this as clubs that they can just vote from their phone or Etc and not having to interact with a wallet per se I Contra abstraction and proof of uniqueness I I think those are like a two things that are really needed for like the mainstream more mainstream uh adaption but both of them like account abstraction is is not enough so like for me like account abstraction anyway the E the ux of the usage of the blockchain basically so if you know all the the features that's going to be shipped as we speak right now uh but apart from that is there anything related to dowo that account account abstraction SS I don't really know at this moment it's super early per personally I think that with the count abstraction as you said like more nuus will come to the space because it's going to be so much easier to onboard them like they don't want need to know about stuff like seed phrases or fearing that they're going to uh lose their account so I think once we solve these uh problems with the account obstruction naturally they're going to be interested about those and other forms of governance thank you for the question hi uh my name is wuk I got a question about what do you think about uh the prospects of using the models the Lessons Learned um in the Dows that you participate in to extend those lessons learn to other things that can be governed other Goods other processes other public goods than those related to to to technology to to uh to tokens to to um to you know technological infrastructure so how do you see the prospects of expanding the the Dow processes to to like a real world um Goods or or or or objects can you summarize the question yeah okay so this is my my problem so sometimes I I I try to explain to like normies about the the blockchain and crypto world to to to to show them that it's not just about uh the multiplication of capital it's about the centralization about consensus and I try to show the the examples of gitcoin for example or now octant and show them that these are the ways of efficient efficient the funding Goods efficient funding of public goods and I'm being asked at this point what kind of goods are being found found and I'm saying well protocols technology infrastructure and so the answer is well so basically again the space is basically finding itself so my question is how can these these mechanisms that you are working on what are the prospects of act actually using them to to to efficiently um governing other Goods like Goods outside of the blockchain space I also uh when you I when I heard your question I also thought about gitcoin and quadratic voting I thought I think this is a very interesting mechanism of basically putting the power into the hands of many instead of the hands of uh the most wealthy ones so basically to describe briefly about quadratic voting it gets quadratically more expensive for a certain person to add an additional vote so you incentivize basically the crowd to have a say and I think this model can be used externally as well like to fund other public goods for example right now you don't really get to aay how your tax money goes and what gets fund it and what doesn't yeah yeah exactly so I I don't I don't think you know like a mechanism we are experimenting with or others are experimenting with in the space are like a blockchain specific so you can you easily imagine like can applying those techniques to outside of blockchain and in and in fact is happening so in both ways so so quadratic voting like is is not like the originally like the like the blockchain native concept it it was adapted from side yeah and I I believe that if anybody in in this audience uh any like worked with any in you know in their experience they know how hard it is to you know to actually get funding for for Nos and like this is like a per like in my opinion it's a perfect matching so that we can actually find those organization that are doing great job for us but right now they are struggling with you know getting Banks to accept donations recording donations like it's it's super awful and troublesome so that's why they're usually you know relying on government grants for example which in our country we know that it it it tends to be problematic uh if the government government is not not really uh cooperating so yeah I I believe that right now the biggest uh the biggest struggle we have is the public perception of crypto uh because I I'm working with a lot of NOS in Poland and I would love them to use crypto in order to fund their you know what they're doing I don't know if polls from the audience know the project vur like this project is like I am biased because I was cofounding it but this was like this is a great project that is doing so much good and it struggles to get funding year after year like we and and probably we could fund like 10 years of existence of this project just by a single giton round like so th those tools will be used but I would also say that it can go other way around as well like here in daos we can learn so much more for the real world coordination you know techniques and how we how we gather around specific topics uh how politics is actually being done like we should learn from each other uh on both sides thank you very much if there you have yeah just maybe one sentence it's a weird because I wanted to answer the previous question rather than ask a new one but what I thought about this a lot and one of the things I'm excited about is the idea of actually computer games being created and managed and expanded by the Dows right because there are a lot of abandonware games that nobody picked up or there are some games that people create but just leave later I can imagine a dow where people vote on code changes like there's new levels new graphics Etc if it goes through sorry f factoral one example yeah for example right and then you know if enough voting goes then the code can be actually pushed through to actually have a new version of the game right so I can imagine this kind of thing where there's no company behind the game just the community and by voting they actually go forward like for example tesos which the patches to the source code are actually voted for and going forward but sorry just wanted to com actually actually Austin Griffith uh was experimenting with this uh idea and he created this game in which players could vote on changing the mechanics of the game so imagine civilization uh multiplayer civilization game where you can actually vote on I don't know taxes or vote on the cost of Technologies and so on and so on like there is so so much potential there thank you very much uh our time is out thank you all for coming and listening and thank you to all of our speakers for this discussion thank you thank you thank you thank you