Paladin, Venus Labs, YieldNest, Morpho Labs - Advanced Stablecoin Yield Strategies & DeFi Risk Mgt

next up we have a panel optimizing yield Advanced strategies and risk management for stable coins and Defi and here we have Roma the co-founder of Paladin Brad the head of Venus Labs uh Amadeo of yield Nest Paul the CEO of Moro and a of token Dynamics let's give him a round of applause Hi man hey are you hello cool hi folks good afternoon and Welcome to our fourth panel of the day today we're going to spending the next 45 minutes diving into advanced yield strategies and risk management for stable coins in defi we have an exciting panel lined up this afternoon for all of you and I'm really looking forward to diving into some of the emerging Trends and Innovation that's been happening in the space in the recent past uh but first let's start off with a round of introductions my name is AJ and I'm a token Economist at token Dynamics token Dynamics is a web 3 design firm specialized in developing censorship resistance protocols and Advising Economic Security issues we'll go uh from left to right fig do you want to go next sure um I'm fig one of the co-founders of Palin we help projects grow their liquidity on chain um I also sit on the liquidity committee at a and I'm an adviser at usual basically 90% of our business today is helping stable coins scale in term of liquidity to be able to provide uh sufficient liquidity for them to uh Thrive hey I'm Paul I'm confounder and CE of moral Labs uh we built the morha protocol with a permission and decentralized landing and baring infrastructure for anyone to build like the landing and barring use case uh we launched a year ago and today we have $2 billion deposited in the protocol hi I'm Amad BR the co-founder of yield n the liquid reaking protocol that offers the maximum risk adjusted Returns on your uh on your base assets hi everybody my name is Brad Harrison I work on Venus protocol I head up Venus Labs we are deployed around uh six chains now uh closer to eight by the end of the year probably where a multi-billion dollar protocol deployed 4 years ago already in 2020 brilliant so the first question I want to talk about is around yield and specifically looking at a base rate for yield so um obviously the base rate um for yield in in the past has been the E staking yield and what I'd love to hear from the panel is how do you all interpret the role of a base rate in defi particularly in guiding yeld expectations and in managing risk fig do you want to start um I'm a person that's triggered by the concept of Base rting crypto uh first of all because stable coins are both fatp stable coins floating currencies and you could even argue that lsts are stable coins right um the problem is the base rate is not if staking for a dollar stable coin if you're a dollar stable coin the base rate is going to be treasury builds the same way that if you're a BTC uh user the base rate is going to be nothing so the whole problem is that we do not have a base rate for crypto could it be an average of the lending rate on all lending plat platforms I think that's something interesting to look into is it if staking as you're saying because it's the base rate on the ecosystem I don't know uh I feel there's eventually going to be a lior moment in crypto if it just hasn't happened yet so um my mental model for base rates uh in in def5 uh depends on like the coin so for stable coins I see it as like the maximum between the real world asset like T rate and the crypto leverage rate whatever like the per rate on on a Moro penus um usually you know when when Market is bullish that rate is above the treasur bills rate in which case like the D5 base rate you know is that and and if if this rate you know Market is a little bit less bullish and you know rate goes down treasure Bells then can expect like you know rward asset leverage uh that takes the rates you know very close to uh T bills rate uh so that's for stable coin like USD stable coins um for E it's the same thing but you replace T bills by staking rate and you know most of the time you know people are not short if so the staking rate rate is always above like uh this um you know East per rate uh and then for Bitcoin is like 0.01% like just just because very few people like arbit I mean like short it but still there there it's not zero right like it's it's you know there's a little bit especially with like those like raking like points narrative and like as the utility of Bitcoin grows there just like a bit more demand for borrowing Bitcoin in general uh but yeah that's my quick yeah I think I couldn't add more to that I think I I would agree with what you just said I think the the e base rates e staking rates and the stable coin rate depends on like the the arrogate of all the different landing and borrowing markets um and Bitcoin yields we'll have to see where it comes from yeah in general I think this concept of the base rate is interesting because in traditional Finance they have the t- bills and uh a couple of guys on the panel already spoke to the idea of of a token Centric rate right or it depends on what token you're talking about and if we take on uh a a kind of view of like the next five years is it just going to be about eth or BTC we're going to have a proliferation of assets we're going to have a proliferation of Base rates and that just follows with the principles of defi right that it gives you more user choice that there's going to be more fine-tuned risk profiles depending on which asset uh you're basing your strategy around and so in the traditional Finance system one base rate and defi many base rates and there will be a discontinuity and that asymmetry will grow right because we have more efficiencies in our system we're going to be pulling away at warp speed and I if trafi could deploy Capital instantly into Dy now they would but there's no technology or Bridges to do it right there's frictions there's on on ramping and all this so there's going to be R between the two that's obviously a source of yield as well that we'll probably get into I think I realize we haven't really even defined what the base rate is in the sense well basically it's just the rate that the main Central emitter of an asset is ready to pay to people so for the US dollar it's chil right well you know if you if you define it as like you know the D5 base rate I I would argue it's like the deposit trate you could get on your stable coins for a very large amount uh you know meaning in def5 below 1 billion you know around and if it's that then it's probably the max of like Leverage rate and and you know uh TS then it's if it's above like 10 billions then it's surely like you know central banks right obviously so yeah I see what you mean I was really talking about the large scale what what I meant with this was that uh if you are dollar stable coin and I know 90% of the isses are here at this conference uh you are basically uh subject to the dollar monetary policy from the central banks so you are bound by their rates right what's interesting is that we're starting to build mechanisms uh that would enable us to basically unchain ourselves from this and an example is the interest rates that are created on the moro protocol with the I think I'm not sure exactly how vus work but I suppose it's the same with basically the more demand you have compared to the actual outstanding supply of stable you have the more the interest rate go up right another version that's going to release soon with liquid TV2 is user set interest rates so what's happening is that uh current base rate in trfi is set by the central bank and the central bank is not perfect it's actually people uh basically asking Bankers asking business owners how the market economy is doing and setting it up man manually what we're seeing on Venus Moro and then liquid in a different fashion is that we're doing Market driven mechanisms so what's interesting for me is are we actually switching the base rate for something that's set up by a central entity to uh not even a smart contract but an actual uh common uh behavior from all of the actors in the ecosystem and I think that's uh What uh that's a question that until we have answers we'll have a hard time in building very large and scalable Advanced strategies for stable coins over 10 billion I think uh it quite a few different perspectives uh where shared there but broadly um if we had to talk about it we're looking at base rate that could be set by offchain sources or centralized sources um which would be your tbls right whereas if you're looking more on chain this would be demand for example driven by lending markets so maybe that's a that's a framework we could start off with um to uh proceed with further discussion so the next question I want to touch on is more around stable coin yield and i' would love to get your thoughts on which markets sectors or iies you believe have the highest yield potential for stable coins um and love to understand why you think these sectors of strategies provide more sustainable yield than others it's probably context dependent right like everything changed uh this week so so uh whatever expectation you have for the market for the past year just kind of throw that away um but in general we have some Clues right so so this kind of Athena model of bringing yield from offchain and using the stable coin which is the killer app of yield distribution uh to uh uh to boost yields from uh things like a basis trade uh that's an interesting hint about where things might be going I think we'll see a uh expansion of this and we'll see more Athena like models uh and it's super interesting because you know anytime you have a revolutionary technology that's being adopted uh it it's not from you know zero to a million right there's like incremental steps and uh the the Athena model is one such incremental step it's a hybrid model and there will be more of these um so that's an interesting and promising sector and anywhere where there's more risk I think we're now in a very much a risk-on environment people want um uh high yields wherever those might come from I don't know municipal bonds uh whatever it is uh that that will be a promising source for sure yeah speaking of like the highest source of yield we have in crypto for stable coins my shaling is that it has to be so it's not entirely in defi but uh centralized exchanges like uh per uh just because like the demand for leverage over there uh is very retail oriented and you know for better for worth they're paying huge fees right like much higher than than in in defi and so obviously the people orbing this you know whether it's like through talized packages like you know Etha or like directly on the centralized exchange is like probably the highest source of yields that is you know that that can welcome decent size obviously like you have all the farms and everything but it's hard to have like scalable ones uh so for me this is probably the the biggest like most scalable source of yield but it's getting arbed like every day a bit better so so yeah that that would be my take yeah I agree with that as well you can AR that but I hope we will live in a future where the price can be made on chain of course that we all want that because that would be actually better for our whole EOS system to have onchain price Discovery and onchain yields and make defi more efficient and I do think like the highest yields are indeed like Howa does it and centralized exchanges but I also think in defi there's also a lot of inefficiencies especially with all the abstraction that we're seeing there is a lot of assets on certain layer twos or there there's a lot of arbitres in between on chain that I think are a little bit underutilized still uh and will also be net positive we if we as an industry focus more on onchain price Discovery and uh try to not get carried too much away with the yeah and I I would even add to that that uh exchanges are all going on chain and uh you know over the next 6 months we'll see more and more you know burs or borrowing products uh coming directly from from centralized exchanges and you know that means that you know there will be no ARB anymore and you know they will tap into like onchain pricing onchain liquidity that is you know supposedly more efficient more active Etc so so I'm very excited for that actually yeah the Kraken L2 and binance with binance chain I think it's all going to move on chain because they all want that everybody wants that so I think it's going to move there and the protocols that do the on like more for Venus like everybody will will it will be better for the industry and it will be better for for everybody basically def5 will be easier to use things will be cheaper and we have higher yields as well essentially there are only in my mind at least two yield sources in crypto it's lending and providing liquidity Market making well yeah it's yeah for me it's the same uh what I mean by this is everything else is structured on top of these two concept for example funding rates from burs is a type of lending right so the question is uh what is the most in demand and what scales the most because if you ask me today uh and I'm speaking in a biased manner there is more money to be made by providing liquidity but it's also riskier and the third thing is it scales less there is a limited amount of liquidity that's needed in the ecosystem as a whole each time a new stable Co project appears this grows and you should call us because we'll help you but at some point there's a limited amount of both liquidity available for this specific risk profile and in general uh liquidity that just in general lending is a bit different for two reasons the first one is that uh lending is the basis of Finance it's the core concept uh that builds we build everything on top and it's infinitely scalable as we create value because you can borrow get those assets that are tokenized today so I think that the market for Lending is much bigger but I think there's more money to be made on providing liquidity today so we've had a few uh responses there touching on the importance of liquidity and we've also touched on exchanges now moving on chain and the next question I want to touch on is around fragmented liquidity and I think we touched a bit around onchain efficiency as well and I want to dive into both of those topics a bit more so the question is do you see challenges with fragmented liquidity with the um a lot of uh uh movement on chain and with all the new l2s that are popping up around the place and what Innovations um have you seen that help address some of these challenges amadea do you want to start off yeah yeah I can I can start off and can follow on like I I I'm very bullish on on that because I uh yes it's now all fragmented and it's like we we launched this L2 road map and we we're still working on all these ZK provs or these glues and all these things that will glue it all together magically with Cod processors I know it's not here yet right but if that that comes there there will be huge yield opportunities because then we can start to build uh you know credit default swaps we can start to build like we can start to remove the different time duration risk between different products uh and we will start to do proper risk trading between these financial instruments um and I'm looking forward to see that come more mature right now it's still a lot of work to do there because it's super fragmented and there's a lot of Base Primitives this will need to be figured out uh but I think when we get there it's going to be this like also the way like the new yield n vaults are designed like the the accounting all happens on layer one right and some sort of a glue that will work with uh I work with Cod processors but that's of course something more futuristic but optim optimistically works with different strategies that sync back to this L1 States and then you can theoretically do a lot of Arbitrage between all these different chains different Moro markets different Venus markets you can AR the funding and borrowing rates and make defi more efficient for the daily users make it easier for people to swap and use different products and at the same time earn a earn earn a nice yield that we can feed back to the users of the of the of the protocals in the systems yeah yeah I would definitely second that like uh I'm super super bullish reaggregation in general uh I believe in a def world where you know the protocols are completely ungoverned completely immutable and if you go in that direction you have to have fragmentation right each you know uh it can be a wall monolithic pool like like a that is managed and controlled by a few individuals it has to be few Primitives but then if you have you know different like immutable Primitives you have to choose you know you put the complexity on the side of the user and the user has to decide what's its uh own risk you know and then it becomes all fragmented and all complex and so that's why I'm so bullish on reaggregation you know you have the same concepts with Unis swap you know unisoft V2 was pretty aggregated you know very easy to interact with it on chain then unisoft V3 you could trade on it on chain but you could not LP on chain you know very easily you had to go through like market makers will be quite Advanced and now unisoft before you know you can't trade and passively and you can't LP passively in both cases you have to use reaggregation right like unisex reaggregates for Traders and you know the the arist of the world like they reaggregate for LPS right and I do you think that's going to be the same thing for all defi in general like trustless and opin unated and govern immutable base Primitives that are super efficient that everybody can rely on forever and then on top of that very complex and efficient reaggregation we've built some of that with the morph volts but you know everybody is building you know reag I'm super bullish of that this is going to happen like over the next six months and the level of you know efficiency increase that's going to happen in D5 thanks to those reaggregation layers is going to be quite insane right and to me this is how like you know the main incumbents with like all the aggregation through governance you know at the core like will fall eventually I I thought I was going to have a controversial opinion here but it's the consensus um yeah all the all the tech that's arriving now I think we saw coming and we anticipated over the past two years when there were these growing pains driven by liquidity fragmentation but I think when people hear liquidity fragmentation they should think liquidity in Innovation right that liquidity is going somewhere it's trying something new it creates this laboratory effect which underpins like all of the Innovation that's going on in defi so more I think of it as liquidity Innovation liquidity expansion and we were dealing with these growing pains more like a year or two ago and we didn't have the tech coming online that everyone here's now talking about right and of interesting projects like cluster socket across all this and it's like going live now so wherever the liquidity wants to go it will get patched in it'll create new opportunities more yield opportunities you know we have you know people have described some of this liquidity fragmentation on Venus because we have isolated pools and but uh with with less liquidity but in reality you get other yield opportunities uh exactly like you said so um more user Choice more Innovation better for everybody so I did not expect having the controversial opinion on this uh I think fragmentation of liquidity is a meme um if you think about it like 50 or 100 years ago Capital markets were separated by country right there was regulation but there was also no way of actually moving Capital around different markets outside of just taking a luggage with the cash in it and depositing it from one market to another what happened is that we had internet so now information became Global and information became less fragmented it's now very unified in a way everyone accesses to the most uh most of the information together right capital is not the same yet there's a lot of capital on the internet uh but it's still fragmented between different countries with capital control for example you're never getting capital from China or India it's just they can't take money out of the country the the interesting part about it is that if you frame crypto today this way you realize it's a bit like nation states with geographical implementations actually digital implementations with specialized Capital so for example you're going to have base with the coinbase capital you're going to have ethereum with a maxic capital Solana etc etc and uh we're building bridges what Unis swap is doing for example with a cross is extremely interesting to bridge all of this together but we're forgetting and this is something I realized extremely recently by the way when you go and talk with this huge liquidity provider because 90% of the liquidity is owned by 1% of the people they're not all profit maxing they want a certain thing with the base rate are just above but they want a line capital and a line primitive so when you you're going to want to create your own protocol as a stable coin provider you're going to think I'm going to create the best Y and this is going to how I'm going to attract so many more people towards my project you do this you have the best deal for maybe three months and then you get out shine because context change right and you don't understand why you why you didn't get capital in the meantime even despite your airdrop that's because you built a solution that only you care about or profit Maxes care about but when you're going to see big treasuries they want something inine with their ecosystem maybe they're an L2 maybe they're an L1 maybe they're centralized exchange maybe they're a state fund all of these guys have an actual agenda and you need to align Capital with them so if you look at it this way liquidity is fragmented for ideological political economical reasons and you have to take this into account to actually build your Advanced strategies yeah I think that's a very fair point brilliant yeah the United States of ethereum right that's why you we should not build dollar stable coins to be on everyone is building this because it's the most scalable and uh there is no real direct economical incentive in building something that is not dollar backed because that's a prime utility but the truth is we will never have a defin native base rate on something not as volatile as if if we don't actually build floating currencies and uh that's the whole you're right the United Nations the United Protocols of etherum is the ideal we should create it there we go United States of ethereum um so when we're looking at yield there's usually a relationship between the risk associated with getting that yield and the um the size of the yield itself and so as defi grows and matures we need to be more cognizant of the different risk profiles um that users of defi would be uh after so for example there'll be certain users who prefer more the conservative uh approach those who prefer the more balanced and those who prefer the highrisk high yielding opportunities I'd love to hear from the panelists how you see protocols approaching this maybe Paul you can start off um yeah of course um so you know obviously before building Morpho as we are right now we had another protocol uh that was called Morpho Optimizer was actually built on top of a uh and optimizing the the rate of a uh we had $2 billion deposited on I were the biggest user by by quite far both on the borrowing and on the landing side and you know one of the biggest limits we had at the time is that we could only offer you know one risk reward profile to users uh and when I say risk I include everything like compliance like restrictions Etc like there's only one profile it's a one siiz fit so model for everybody right so you know that did not look very scalable to us like if you think of defi not as supporting you know banking for crypto users and the jents but you think of defi as true Financial infrastructure for the all you know the banks or everybody in the world to you know build on like decentralized Wells well of course you have to build infrastructure that supports different risk profiles different compliance profiles as well um and so that's why we decided even though we were growing with this uh Optimizer protocol to you know sunet it and to build something uh completely different that allowed for the expressivity of those like different risk profiles right and so the big questions when you you you you you start expressing different risk profiles is like okay uh the things we were just discussing before is fragmentation like every new risk profile uh you know new fragmentation so you have to build solutions that you know factor in uh this liquidity fragmentation whether it is through reaggregation or just by limiting the dimensions like you know yes we need risk diversification different risk profiles but you don't need an infinite number of risk profiles that would be like unuseful you know fragmentation the same way unisoft fre doeses not allow you to set like any feet here you can just use four right now they have Unis swex so the reaggregation is perfect so they can allow for a lot more but anyway that's another topic uh so yeah definitely needed as with scale and you know I can't imagine that you know some some protocols actually think you know until not so long ago we're thinking you know it was going to be a one siiz fitle you know now you know people like moroc games or you know the aves of the world are trying to you know create new pools and and have like bepoke like RIS profas but it's clearly wasn't made for that in the first place but yeah definitely needed I was very surprised I started in corporate law before going to defi about the risk profile of most people so as Paul Paul mentions there's not that many different risk profiles no it's it's actually if you look at I expect the deal trading something on Pendle or Idol Finance where Junior and senior trenches to exist in crypto the principle for those who don't know of trenching is basically you're separating Yi and risk from a senior trench that's going to take uh a lesser part of the risk for Less yield and a junior trench with more yield and more risk um in trafi funds love the senior trench because it's good yield very safe in crypto everyone goes into the junior trench and there's no Capital into the yield senior trench which makes no sense in traditional terms because everyone that's actually core users is going to go fully risk on so sometimes they don't even realize the core risk that they're taking in providing liquidity for example and the people who are not taking risk if you're thinking I'm I'm unique it's either because you're provide you're a treasury manager or a risk manager it's the only two categories of people who are not taking the risk on approach in crypto or you come from trifi so in a sense uh risk management in Defy is not that uh I don't want to say important but omnipresent because most people haven't developed the acument to actually think of it this way they look at the yield but they don't take into consideration all of the risk I mean for now right for yeah I think it's fault of the industry right because like if you look at the interfaces like how they build it's like everybody's pushed into the junior trunch like it's like everybody's like guided into the no for example on idol Finance it was like purely really neutral and they had this whole problem you see 10% risk or 20% risk 20% is made it just a little bit bigger people don't see the risk that's the thing the risk is not quantifiable you have to do the research and know I know but like I I I think people the the the the literacy and the information and and all that is not not given and a lot of time that's done on purpose and uh yeah it's it's very bad but I think that's something we need to change right we need to be very clear about like yeah this is a junior senior trch and I think we're going to go in that direction with more information and we don't need regulations and all that stuff but we we we will need to uh educate people more in a sense it's self-regulation I totally agree with you what I'm saying is that most of the people will never spend the required required amount of time to do the the due diligence I mean look for example on Venus or on Morpho you have Risk Managers professional people who do it why is the coure team not doing it and integrating for decentralized reason but also because they don't have the expertise or the time to do this there's a lot of everything and the re truth is that unless you're a huge whale you're not going to have an incentive to actually spend the time on doing this so when you start doing it personally you you've probably made it yeah I think there's like a lot of relevant topics here in terms of risk profiling and regarding tranching and there's a lot of opportunity that has yet to be deployed around tranching uh at the multi-billion dollar level uh and that's uh just a little tease of what Venus is coming up with next so stay tuned amazing amazing I also think it's not uh like maybe it's a little bit off track but it's not like transactions per second it's more like time to finality right and I think it's like if you if you can trade those risks of the time to finality I think that all all these things will need to be a bit more abstracted way but we can do a lot of really cool Financial products there where where there is some risk if the but uh if we communicate it very clearly to the users like this is the risky one this is less risky one I yeah I think that's good way to move into it is important because there is no yield if there's no risk you're being paid you're taking we see that now on lay all theing yeah on that we' we've gone quite deep onto like how do we improve user experience like on Mor you have like thousands of markets you know and and and vaults are like those kind of like abstractions where Risk Managers are aggregating those complex markets for users but even with that we have like you know 20 30 different vaults and people you know easily get lost so we've been thinking a lot about how do we you know aggregate that information of risk in an easy in simple way and you know don't want to spoil too much what's on the road map here but you know I I believe we found a decent solution to show in a quite decentralized way uh what is roughly the risk of like each of these vaults and I'm I'm quite bullish to to Rel that in like the next few weeks excellent a few exciting developments uh coming up in the in the near future um I think the question one more question I want to ask is on risk itself um but more around the role of dows in Risk Management are there any practices or structures that you think uh actually um help Dows be more effective at risk management or do you actually just see them as being more limiting and basically not suited to uh managing risk thoughts on that yeah Dows are not a perfect Beast right and this kind of plays into the theme of how much things will be different from how they have been so past does not prologue for the next few years of of Dow governance I think it's going to look really different I think we're going to have specialization even within risk management right so what you have now on the biggest protocols uh is a a single risk manager maybe two that's kind of dominating uh the the whole field of of risk uh that needs to be looked after in the protocol uh I think that's going to change I think I think you'll have more more diversity more specialization uh because in effect that you know one risk manager can be considered a point of centralization ation uh at the same time RIS these Risk Managers are innovating and there's some really interesting announcements that are coming up this week uh with Risk Managers um regarding making it more uh streamlined and helping us to be more adaptive uh to the speed of the market so we're going to go at warps you know we're now going at warp speed and defi we want to be at warp speed and the Risk Managers and the Dows have to follow that's the challenge to meet uh and I think we'll get there I think all of us who have a life token or live Dao have learned the hard way that uh I hope I'm not going to take too much for this don't listen to your community or your Dow like most of the stakeholders are simply not Risk Managers and I am not either to be honest so the logic idea of hiring a specialist is seems like the right one the question is how do you incentivize him properly you just pay him a service fee like a is doing for example uh I think for me there was a watershed moment in a sense which is when Moro Morpho introduced Mor for Blue uh because the curator model creates an alignment where Risk Managers can actually profit from doing the pro their own uh uh analysis and people trusting them the problem and I think we're yet to see this is what scale you need to reach for this to be profitable and I think it's a very big scale I'm not so sure I think most of the Risk Managers on morer right now are profitable or if they're they not is just because they have set their fees to zero so I guess my take on risk management is that fundamentally you know risk mitigation is about trying to predict the future or like anticipating what's going to happen on the market and that's very you know different from decentralization and you know what we use decentralization for in general so this's obviously a tension between like a dow is like super slow super decentralized and you know frankly not so smart uh uh just because you know there's no reason for which like a token order should be like as you said a risk expert or should have like the right incentives to do risk management um the honest answer is that I don't know what's the best you know way to risk manage like lending pools and this is why we've you know modularized it in Moro like you could have on Moro We have maker you know they're doing the service model where the vault is owned by the maker Dow and you know I believe there're you know having services from block analytica to do the risk management or we have other vaults like The Gauntlet Vault you know Gauntlet used to do uh risk management as a service for a obviously had a lot of like politics involved because you know you have to be uh you know uh when whenever the delegates you know tell you something you have in some way you know there is a misalign obvious misalignment problem with this I'm not saying it's bad I'm just saying like you know it's not perfect right and so so they moveed to this curator model where they're like you know running their own vaults uh today I believe they have like 150 or 200 million uh deposited in their vault and you know they have no you know there is no politics involved like they don't get to like me or to talk to me when they run their votes on Moro I don't have any control over over their vote they own it they own their fees they own their risk management uh which you know in my opinion has has has proven to be an exceptional model we're extremely in line with our vae managers and very happy to to you know collaborate with them uh and even if we are not like we don't have control over what they're doing so yeah pretty bullish like open modular modularization of Risk Managers and a slight preference for like the curation model where Risk Managers you know uh put their Brand's name uh and also earn their own fees based on on the volume that they that they create yeah I think that's like modularization of Risk Managers is a really good Innovation I think Mor for kind of started with that with like specialized folds with separate Risk Managers uh and I think need to have specialized not internal in the da like external unopinionated uh data feeds of reports that explain what's actually happening um I'm a big believer in the 100 monkey effect so that means that even if a small group of people read those reports it will have a high impact uh and for the Dows and for everything around that organ decentralized organization yeah I think I Mis explain my point what I was trying to say is that it works with Moro it's likely will not work with most projects because they will simply not have enough assets under their management for this to be profitable for users if you make one sub dollar you have one unit for example you can start like that and yeah that's the yeah I agree with you but uh I'm seeing tens and tens of projects copying that model and I understand why I'm just worried that uh they will never reach the sustainable point for this to work right I agree like if if you're going the creating pass you have in my opinion for risky products you have to have 20 million a to hope to be profitable lowrisk products at least 100 million that's a rough like approximation you know then if you're a Creator you you know you could also go to like new projects you know trying this model and farm their grants and then maybe you know you'll be profitable thanks to that but other than that you have to Target those numbers grants you have Pol too much politics it needs to be this really this stream of money that they can do what they want else it's just cool so we have uh just under a minute left I think what would be good is if each of the panelists could just give um a way that folks in the audience can follow you for updates any new developments that you want to be sharing um what would be the best way for them to uh um stay updated I'm constantly shill posting on Twitter uh as I imagine everybody in this room is right now and we're going to soon announce uh the next version of Venus which has been uh underway for the past uh 2 years in waiting so we're ready to pop this out of the oven and excited to announce it amazing yeah you can find me also posting on Twitter uh find yield. Finance uh we are just uh yesterday evening released a new yield Nest Max E volts is a new kind of volt architecture that I'm going to experiment with and it's a 1 million cap uh we're going to experiment with a kind of new like architecture about trying to build the the the glue around all these different yield opportunities to make D5 more efficient for everyone and have a high yield uh on top of that as well yeah what's what's your Twitter handle I forgot to say mine it's Brad here now by the way yeah my handle is Amadeo at Amadeo Brands my full name very simple so on our end it's um Mor for.org uh I'm going to be a bit more ambitious than you uh if you want to follow a Frenchman complaining about defi fig uncore me SP on the agenda no um if you want to follow uh a new primitive we about to build follow myus m i t h r a s Labs it's our company Twitter it's stealth and otherwise it's p in that vote awesome thanks could we get a round of applause for the panelists quick