The Dawn of the Yield-Bearing Stable (Panel)

all right hello everyone welcome to this session titled the dawn of the yield bearing stable coin uh today we're going to be examining the potential of IBT ibts so interest bearing tokens on enhancing composability and liquidity and defi I'm your moderator I'm Amal I'm on the business development team at Redstone oracles we the fastest growing modular Oracle we live on over 60 chains pricing over 1,250 assets and focused on pricing yield bearing assets and collateral for Lending markets today I'm joined by my esteemed fellow panelists I'll let them go down the line and introduce themselves starting on my right thank you um hi everybody I'm Ethan one of the core contributors for IBU Finance we're a CDP on ethereum that lets you borrow dollars against um various Bitcoin eth USD pegged assets at the most competitive interest rate and like yeah some of our collateral are yield bearing so that's yeah our relation to the topic my name is Garrett Hall I'm here on behalf of curve Finance who is also uh generously throwing this event um I've been working with curve on developer Outreach and relations so I've done a lot of tutorials on how to integrate with curve using Titan Boa Viper ape framework all fantastic Frameworks and um in my free time I blog about curve so I'm very much curve maximalist hi my name is gas Papi I'm one of the co-founder of Spectra protocol we introduced principal tokens and Y tokens back in 2020 another the apy name and rebred to Spectra which is doing permissionless Shield tokenization hi um I'm fig one of the co-founders of Paladin and Rings we basically try to help stable coin scale first with onchain liquidity for bin and then as a utility sync mainly on Sonic um with rings which is basically a meta stable coin okay thank you everyone so just diving right in um for a bit of context with crypto going through a massive systemic shock over the past six months and a lot of the political landscape in the US shifting increasingly favorably towards crypto and its long-term viability there's been some talks in the that the defi sector that ends up mirroring traditional trafi yield bearing strategies the most could end up being one of the big winners of their shift hence bringing us to the topic of the dawn of the yield bearing stable coin um a lot of the questions will be addressing how defi assets like stable coins can be valued specifically under these traditional Financial valuation models where the asset value is now tied to the Future yield well but diving into the first question as more sophisticated and traditional participants enter the market something we're already seeing now today do you guys expect the demand for yield bearing stable coins to increase um substantially why or why not and what effect can this have on the space I'll just kick it off to my right and see where we go from there yeah I think broadly um we've seen a proliferation of yield during stable coins especially like uh I think it was mentioned in one of the last talks when um you want to prevent devaluing of your assets relative to inflation having some yield on your on your wealth is nice but I would add some Nuance like uh when we say yield bearing assets it's a it's a broad category and um it's really important to understand like how is the yield generated uh and also like the underlying how is the underlying stable coin generated because there's like respective risks to both like how the stable coin is produced and the strategy of the yield um yeah risk in terms of like how stable this yield is how scalable it is um how it performs in various macroeconomic contexts so I think broadly yes but needs like a it needs a more nuanced risk underwriting yeah I agree that Nuance is key and it's really difficult for people in the space to understand because apys tend to be correlated with risk and yet people are just so excited about high apys that it kind of blinds them um and that leads to you know a lot of tragedies where people keep getting greedier and greedier and go for the riskier and riskier attempt to try and get yield but it does continue to work uh so I don't think we're going to like ever get away from that fully um and I don't think that institutional players are necessarily different from retail on this front I think that retail is you know very risky with their own funds but I also think that we saw during defi summer a lot of Institutions saw high apys and they got excited and they moved in and they might be cautious now but at the end of the day high yields is like a bat signal once you see a high yield go out like it's an immediate like signal to for people to swarm and try and attack it yeah um definitely agree with what was said from a perspective of a protocol integrating yield sources we have most of our TBL in stable TBL in stable coins at the moment we've seen this Market completely exploding like lots of different protocols you know likea doing tremendous growth and that aspect as well but um from the institutions that comes and try to use a protocol we see a lot of Demand on the fixed income instrument so maybe joining what was said previously they want to have more control more certainty over the return and Def is still like very wild environment where you see like a y unsustainable yield and um not only we see the demand for stable coin increasing but also stable yields um yeah I think it's important to put it in perspective in the sense that it really is the dawn of the yield bearing stable coins uh right now we just crossed a huge threshold which is 1% of the dollar M2 Supply is in stable coins so that's huge that's $220 billion out on top uh on this how much is you bearing stable coins the answer is less than 10 billion so we actually have less than 5% of the stable coins that are actually yield bearing today and 80% of them is actually just IFA then it's usual and then it's projects that are lower than a billion so there's massive amounts of money in that ecosystem for sure the only people who are not sad today are the one who are building stable coins so it's most of you guys considering the market but um the reason why I'm going to this is there's a lot to be built like do people actually care enough for Guild bearing stable coins to take over or are payments instruments like Circle and tether because that's why they are uh will they dominate in in a sense it's about distribution right they were first mover uh they have a huge Advantage can the yield bearing stable coins by externalizing and giving to usus their their yield uh compete and win I don't know maybe it's too late I think it's someone else here has better insights than me on this I'm curious why you think it's too late I'm not necessarily saying it's too late um hinting at the fact that it could be because if you look at the stable coin growth over the past two years it is 99% th in circle like we're self congratulation what epina did and it's impressive what usual did and it's impressive all of these in term of growth but uh how many other stable coins have the reach to actually go to a billion and over I think it's a lot about distribution I'm really speaking for experience we've been working with stable coins for more than three years uh we release our own meta stable coin it's not a stable coin on Sonic two months ago and we're trending roughly at the $120 million TBL in two months and this only works because it's happening on Sonic and they have a distribution channel that enables us to go to that Scala so it's not really as much about the yield as it's a distribution can I add yeah please um I I think it raised a good point like what's the point of stable coin I think there's two use case payments and then savings for payments you want to pay someone in a asset pegged to a dollar because that's what we do business in for the savings use case that's where yield is nice you want your money to grow relative to inflation but the key question he raises is it does the savings need to be denominated in a yield bearing coin or can it be in a dollar that is Lent in a Yi yield strategy and you withdraw and you earn yield on uh you withdraw more than you put in that's that's yield and like at least from our perspective at Abu it's like yield bearing collateral yield bearing stable coin is useful if you want to collateralize with with that yield bearing asset but if you're not trying to collateralize and you're trying earn yield yeah it's it's a it's a nice question like why would you have a yield bearing asset versus just deploying a pegged asset into like a yield strategy I'd add to this and just say that another really emerging use case for stable coins is actually onchain settlement which we're starting to see evidence that this is why some of the stable coins are being minted is for the purposes of settlement so I mean I think that's like exciting we're seeing Ed stable coins filling out their use cases yeah and we are seeing new sources of yield right because Spectra is specialized in token in these yields but uh initially when we started like last B market in 2021 22 we had swap fees from a lot you could get for example from curve and lending fees and that was the two origins of yield now you have delta neutral strategies like anina you have t yelds and you're going to have more and more sources of liquidity so what becomes interesting is that you can have Diversified access at least that's what we've been focusing on for the past few months is hey there's a huge amount of interest in stable coins it's obviously a superior technology to uh the dollar equivalent that you can have in a bank account so the question is what's the best service that you can use and there's hundreds of solutions our answer is maybe we can offer an aggregation service that just gives you the better average of all the yield opportunities risk manage of course uh on the market and that's what we've been trying to bring to the market yeah I think King off what you just implied um looking at like the aggregation of different yield strategies let's talk about the design of yield bearing stable coins from an end us user perspective in your guys' discussion with users what demands have you seen when it comes to yield structures and are there fluctuations and user demands based on different yield strategies like do you expect this to change long-term how how do you expect it to play out yeah so um I think like yield bearing assets is like ice cream shop there's different flavors of ice cream it's all pegged to $1 but the flavor is different like the type of yield it offers is different like he said it can be like T delta neutral from lending whatever and it's up to the user at Abu we let the user choose okay what flavor of ice cream do I want and they can bring it to us and they can borrow against it um I think they would want to borrow against the yield bearing asset because if the yield is higher than the interest they're paying on the loan then the loan self repays um but yeah I think uh I guess it's up to the user like they're they're they're the one who who gets to choose what kind of types of risk they want to take on um yeah I mean it's uh it's very interesting because there are so many different flavors and I wish people did more research into it is my like one wish for people because I really feel like that just boils down to oh that's 20% I'll do that and that's 5% um there's so much going on under the hood it's just like fascinating mechanics um it seems to me that like uh kind of building off what uh Fe was saying earlier like we have this like really interesting situation where the like basically stable coin is an insanely profitable business whether you're tether whether you're a small protocol just getting started if you can get stable Co off the ground it's great tether is not giving away any yield and they've made that work for them they got 150 billion roughly in their market cap and they've done it keeping all the yield for themselves and then at the bottom not like we're like compared to other we're all on the bottom and we're figuring out where we can strategically give out that yield within our ecosystem to best grow uh and as long as there's people like us innovating and like trying to like dish out yields in various ways um you know I think it doesn't matter necessarily whether it comes from a delta neutral strategy or whether it comes from a lending protocol um reshare you know sharing some of the yield like I think the important thing is like if it's a good sustainable mechanism and you're willing to reshare with users like we're going to see growth in this kind of bottom wrong as we kind of work to get our way up to the big boys Garr I'm curious just to double click on what you said you said you wish users did a little bit more research on these strategies so would you say that like at least the state of users right now is that they're a bit more reactive to what the market presents rather than like um a stable coin issuers designing um yield bearing strategies based on user requests like basically the question was how do you respond to users needs is the answer that users are actually just responding to what we put out yeah I mean um in the talk I gave earlier like I kind of gave the analogy of a yield bearing stable coin is basically like you aim a fire hose of money at your stable coin and dare people to Mint it and people will take you up on that down to like a certain kind of like wherever the risk reward ratio isn't quite there so for like you know a safe for stable coin that's probably going to be nowadays like 7 to 11% if it's like a completely risky mechanism then it might be 50% um now I what I wish is that the people who saw the 50% and still aped like I wish that they actually did the research at that point to say like why is this so high because usually if it's sitting at 50% um it's probably not because you just like stumbled across a gold mine it's probably because smarter people looked at it in the past yeah can also be new right there's a whole attention again in crypto where distribution is keing and uh there's so much noise that signal is extremely hard to find uh one interesting thing uh I've realized recently is that we've Associated leverage with a DG Behavior the thing is most of the hedge funds are 7 to 10x leverage on all their stack when they're doing e for stable coins or dollar or Forex that's an average no I'm saying Leverage is the common farming method that's what's underestimated the cap ratio basil three capital ratio imply I think you need 5% leverage ratio which means you're not allowed to lever up to over 20x you're not allowed to that means that banks on average depends on the countries and the types of banks they lever I think it's between 8 and 12x depending on the opportunities like the job of a bank or even a hedge fund that's why it's called hedge is that you're going to take very little risk and you're going to lever it up to maximize the yield you're getting so why will focus on huge numbers for yield bearing stable coin and that's I think something very interesting with aisu for example you can actually just get a small yield and lever up but it's not for retail users like honestly Finance in it as a whole was not built for retail users that's why in traditional Finance you have so many intermediaries I'm not saying saying we should not interact with them I think the opportunity of doing it is great but I'm trying to s that complex strategy it's in the name very complex one of the cool things I've seen emerging with um curve lamal and I'm sure you can like weigh into this in Spectra as like stable coin leverage trading is actually an amazing strategy because a stable coin will like dpeg by a penny and if you think that's actually a really solid stable coin and it's going to repe you can lever that up 50x and like that becomes pretty significant so and I'm sure you've seen similar stuff with yield trading on Spectra like this yeah yeah definitely it's like I would say there is like leverages Associated to different things in IFI and um I think we're def is very powerful in terms of composability and when you see eth as grow like really you know almost parallel to pendal grow for example in terms of integration and and that kind of Leverage where you just stack heal as well and like from different layers is also a great way to um be more attractive to um uh insert your token at the lower level of the chain make it um completely I mean we've seen you know like usdc yield you know um everything is getting Arbitrage eventually and you see like the interaction between first the initial yield strategy the stable Co inter being token and then like um protocol producing basically bones like a yield oranization and then that integration into lending market and like that kind of triangle produce like I guess is a great factor of growth for most stable coins at the moment uh it's also some kind of Leverage um It produced it owns risk but I think like that's maybe something that you know more yield bearing stable coin defi stable Co have been using a lot that maybe more traditional conservative other stable coin you know that are more on the user payment side have not been tapping too much yeah I think that brings us to an interesting point about the seasonality of um these yield bearing strategies um given like the vast variance among yield like in strategy of yield bearing stable coins how do you see these new institutional traditional investors that have moved into the space reacting to this variance if at all um real quick I think like we we said okay consumers AP whatever is the highest API and maybe that's true for some Deens but majority of the wealth is not by D it's like by big boys who are really smart and when I talk to like institutional LPS like they're they're going into the weeds understanding how the how the yield is produced and what is the the risk reward trade-off and I think um yeah so they understand it perfectly they can respond to seasonality quickly um that's their whole job and for the norm user maybe they'll be just like abstraction layer like a vault or something and the Vault rebalance is based on seasonality to ensure the end user is getting the most um the best bang for their buck and the curator is like clipping a fee in the process that's probably that's kind of where defi we've seen defi trending um yeah so I think on the question of seasonality it's really interesting because as we all know crypto is so temperamental like it was just a few months ago we were convinced we were in a bull market and it was going to Giga send and the like quote unquote like safety if I write on chain at that point was kind of set by Athena so it was not uncommon to see 20% 30% yields on stable coins um because there was such intense demand to borrow and now here we are just a few months later and it's a brand new season we're all bearish we think it's going to zero and all of a sudden you get like pretty good rates on uh on this so I don't know I don't know if there's any wisdom in that I I don't agree I have kind of stopped thinking about the bull SL bear feces because um I was one of the first in denial thinking we're in a bare market and nothing was happening and then you meet your friends on salana who were all getting stupid Rich farming 30% getting crazy air drops doing mem coin trading then it moved to base now it's on Sonic the truth is that capital is moving around it's very liquid so either you stay loyal to a chain and uh if it's worth building on uh if it's worth having the capital and etherum is obviously the most liquid one but the truth is that basically Trends move Trends change it's the whole point is where are things happening right now and right now it's happening on Sonic to be honest and it's going to keep moving around that's the thing the whole job of a foundation of anyone is making these but our job as project is to have a very strong value proposition being able to work with these chains in general and just having a stable product yield bearing stable coins are not going away the problem is adoption how many people are going to use yield bearing stable why do you have usdc in your wallets instead of scvusd SDI even scusd which is our met stable coin the reason is simply we think it's safer it's more liquid there's more defi Integrations that's the whole thing right so right now if there's 220 M billion do of dollars of stable coins uh if there's a, billion what does the ratio look like and if it's still this small we'll already be very successful because it's a very profitable industry probably the most profitable actually in crypto right now but uh we'll have lost in the sense that yield bearing stable coins will not have taken over and I don't necessarily think that they can win unless they focus on the distribution channels or at least the right Partnerships I agree with you and the fact also that um I mean the best yields were um being collected and funding rates Arbitrage and so obviously like e was driving you know the the the St of like what you would be expecting on a stable coin but also that's just like the tip of the iceberg and as you mentioned like capital is moving and one of the reason why capital is moving is like this is the public apy that we see but when you're talking about stable coin project like they you know there is the apy behind the curtains there is the points there is like the VC Capital being flow into yield you know to be able to get market shares as well and like I guess that's also seasonal in some ways because you know this Capital can only flow uh during a certain time and at some point you know you have to be back to an organical generation of yield and so I think that's where like just having also more yield scores you can diversify a bit but until now you know like fing right have been producing such a high yield um that it's hard to compete but um I think it's also you know as you mentioned a question maybe of why do you find the yield and whether or not is it is organical as well that's something we see a lot integrating project like this is Project you know close to TG spending a lot on apy is a great integration for us but you know we also know that after tge the yield will not be the same and even with the same yield you won't have as much LPS because those LPS have different incentives that the public cannot see yeah it's true that uh when we meet yeld bearing stable coins a lot of what we see today is incentive infused for points through tokens um it's not that it's unhealthy it's just that the more you're emitting token the more price pressure you're going to have so it's going to kill you eventually we've learned that the hard way um and you need endogenous like you need a real source of Y like scvd has its own source uh sky has its own Etc all of these projects they need their own and I think what's interesting is that there's going to be tens if not hundreds of different sources of yield for stable coin and then as you mentioned as a retail user which one do you choose probably going to want someone to choose for you get the best yield for you and that's what we're trying to get to so it's a safe place for people to get that yeld gared Ethan anything to add what was the question sorry no no just anything to add before I move on to the next question all right um I think uh fig I want to like tap into something that you mentioned here which is the key uh point of distribution right um we're seeing a lot of established Brands move into the yield bearing space and these brands have strong narrative onboarding funnels and they have massive stable coin distribution I mean like for example like uh usds formerly die uh traditional usdc Athena with all of these big players how difficult would you say it is to break into this market and how do you approach go to market strategy in such highly competitive environment like essentially what you've been saying this whole time distribution I'd love to hear you kick it off fig since it's been a key point you brought up either you have your own distribution channel so the example is Paypal there's been rumored that revolute is coming in the the business if you're in audience message me but uh in general all of these guys they have a huge Edge because they already have the distribution channel so it's very easy for them to come in and do it and that's why I think every fintech every bank has an incentive in creating their own stable coin in some way shape perform and not partnering with someone else that's the limiting factor uh for a normal stable coin let's be honest today if you're creating your own stable coins almost impossible to break in you're going to need to partner up with the distribution Channel with the blockchain that's what we've done with Sonic with a very large ftech with a bank with anything you're going to need that the exception that proves my point I think is a a is the largest lending protocol they've decided to launch their own stable coin some people think a is spending a lot of money on on go um I have bias I'm one of the contributor helping around that liquidity but the truth is is very simple today a makes between 2 and 10% of the interest rate that that are being paid in usdc and usdt Loan there's roughly 15 billion of usdc and usdt Loans okay so it means that if instead of doing 5 to 10% they're Ling out their own stable coin at the same interest rates they're multiplying their revenue between two and 10 and 20 10 and 20x with the same lending capacity zero growth just tending the the asset means that they they go their revenue goes to the billions it's insane so they're spending a lot of money but it's been growing progressively and they are only able to do it because they have a lot of funds so if you don't have the funds the reputation or the distribution Channel forget it it's not possible so the only ones that are going to do it without either having a winning product already the distribution channel are going to raise a lot of money it's the only way would the rest of the panel agree with this is it is it basically like end if you don't have money or a big name backing you well Fig's like the smartest person I ever met so I pretty much agree with everything he says and uh makes it easy for me um no I just wanted to add that um as far as like uh this question how do you gain traction like stable coins is like a really great place because of the composability of defi like of course where curve got at start was stable coin trading it figured out that if you have a good algorithm them for trading stable coins that match the stable coin's risk profile and they're able to deliver low slippage for high volume trades you can actually like build an entire Empire off of that and it helped curve with like its um ability to launch other things but it also means that if you can get some traction for your stable coin there are all the infrastructure pieces out there which you can like launch liquidity pools against usdc against usdt and stable coin trading is such an amazing business and it actually does empower people to go out and do things so if you actually do have access to the distribution Channel build launch it's a great time to launch a stable coin and we haven't even talked about Network effects because it's compounding the reason why you can't compete with usdc or usdt is they've been doing that for more than 10 years like how are you going to replace them on centralized exchanges you need to go on new centralized exchanges some tried with FTX didn't turn out pretty well right so it's in a sense you need to find this new wave of things to ride on you need the new trend and that's the only way that's the only way any protocol actually gets out is you find new hot thing and you write out which one is it going to be for C I'm not sure what I know is that with what's happening with the Trump Administration there's a lot more leeway what uh echoed a lot with me is when the administration was very adamant on the fact that they will not want to make a public stable coin happen they don't want a cbdc they want private stable coins to happen which means that either not not going to enforce very strong regulation or they're going to find a right the right framework there's rumor about it coming soon that's going to help it a lot so it's a good time to race to get into stable coin it's a good time if you have the distribution channel to actually go into it and uh it's a good time if you're already the top dog especially so so fig mentioned like uh distribution like unique distribution channels he mentioned cash like money that you can throw at your stable coin to grow liquidity um but as a new player like we are issuing a new stable coin it's a it's a CDP like how are we going to uh compete against the liquidity advantage of incumbents um like there's like a third factor I would say which is um you you said something like endogenous yield or the way I like to think about it is like real value being created like if you're like how did Athena compete and like scale um so well when there's already usdt usdc uh SD around like they they they they fundamentally deliver some new value proposition to the market and if the market wants it um if like if there's 10x better than incumbents then liquidity will flow to that 10x better solution um and that's how new players can can beat incumbents so um if if you don't have distribution if you don't have money not all hope is lost but you need to be like innovating on mechanism and actually finding some sort of new value to deliver to your users but that's not enough on top of that you need to do all the Tactical things raise a lot pre-commitment from LPS uh co-marketing with your collateral co- incentive programs points all of this stuff is essential because if you don't do it your competitor will but I think no it's a waste of money to do that unless you're offering a fundamentally new like form of value to the market so yeah and just to build on that like I think there's still so much ability to innovate in this space I think we've barely scratched the surface of stable coin design I think that in the past year since I said this my previous talk like I said there's a lot of opportunity Athena is one of those that like no one thought about it until they did um protocol FX no one thought about that until they did there's still amazing opportun ities that are coming out on chain and there's still a lot of as Fe was mentioning a lot of institutional players that are looking at the unit economics of te's business and saying we want a piece of that if we get 1% of what tether's got we're in good shape there's going to be a silly amount of money flowing on chain and there's opportunities to get it from both the real world asset side you know touching those traditional rails and bringing money on and there's opportunities in the defi side to build more Innovative mechanisms to do it and opportunities to bridge those gaps so it's really exciting time for stable coins I think you hit it on the nail uh really in the sense that the unique economics of stable coins it's Tech right so it means that the cost to pushing out something unless you have to pay for the distribution channels are extremely favorable and you can earn two to 15% on AUM with a stable coin per year if you do things right so you have 100 million you're already making between two2 and $15 million of annual recurring Revenue it's crazy and as soon as you start having the right Network effects it's just very stable Revenue that's coming in so you don't need to be Ted even if size to actually create a profitable business um my personal conviction is that absolutely any project of a certain size has an incentive in building their own stable coin instead of accepting usdc usdt because they can actually get that margin out so as long as you have uh the right Network effects to write assets on your platform product Market fit build a stable coin what would these Network effects be what do you what would you recommend say someone's bootstrapping um there a big project wants to build their own native stable coin but they're not in a where where did they begin you need to find LPS I think Ean was very very clear about that you need to uh communicate properly what what else it's a challenge I mean there's use cases for stable coins and the more utility you build around those use cases like the more that you're going to see people saying oh I'm not going to stake it I'm going to put in X or going put in Y which is why tether can get away with it they've had these Network effects built up over 10 years so in long ways it's about staying power like the longer you stay in the game the more people are going to start integrating their your stable coin into their app um so anyone who's launching today has an advantage over anyone was launching a year from now just says anyone who launched two years ago has an advantage over anyone's launching today not a reason not to launch though launch it today Gasper do you have anything to add yeah um I mean I think think I mean obiously I'm I'm preaching for my own church here but like that you many St project that we've seen launching in like the past months so year they likeing liquidity Marketplace is a great way to gain traction see like gain visibility on your yield and you know that's like kind of what's about what this is about as well and like we we had this resolve case where uh you know we obviously were competitors to pendel and pendel was integrating mostly huge project or like half of the TV ASA um and so we integrated that that you know new St coin protocol called resolve and they were like a 20 million TV and actually for a long time and you know we we started to see more and more user like getting interested to that new yield um new stab coin new Dynamics like they have this two trenching system with a senior trench and then the junior trench the RP um but anyway and um we've seen like more and more projects you know starting speculating on that field which inevitably created more and more liquidity and Ling spectar the liquidity Marketplace Grew From like 20 million to I don't even know the number now but like hundreds of millions of TBL um and eventually they got a pull on panel and you know they're doing very well um I think you know as any defi protocol you have a stable coin there is an existing Playbook of things you need to do I mean obviously you will need liquidity because uh how do you evaluate your success if not you know by like how many stable cones are in circulation but you know aside from the distribution channel in the part that I don't know much because I'm not launching a stable con yet um there is this whole like how do you integrate into Define to you know be a component that just routes liquidity to your pools so not yet is that Alpha no it's because fix mention like everyone should do a stable coin and you know but actually uh I know we're not doing a stable coin but but we do have stable coins that are going to launch working with Spectra assets as as you know like you know the one principle tokens and do mechanism can be very interesting collateral or like fix income instruments that can be used in different stab mechanics and that's something we're trying to push because as two even if we're not pushing a St coin yet um we have to to be integrated and as a Lego in the rest of Defi and that means you know having a stable coins and moru that's something we have for a while but um other Ling markets and like more structured product buil with Spectra tokenized asset like all these things it's very important and I think you know stab coins because they have a lot of competitions they need really need to apply the Playbook as well like um as a project launching a new stable coin and trying to build the distri tion maybe I'll like share how we're thinking about it like um I think the Holy Grail North Star kpi for new stable coin is like monetary premium it's like some uh structural demand to hold the stable coin for some reason and like as I said earlier you should have some unique value prop and that should create some demand but how do you create more demand um more monetary premium like d is famously incumbent because they have like so much people just like holding die um creating that monetary premium but anyways how do you create it is you need you need to uh build Integrations that let people do more things with your stable coin so step one you build liquidity on curve you let people swap your stable coin for another step two maybe you support the collateral as lending on Moro market like it's permissionless Finance we can create Market by ourself and like let's say in abu's case we are offering a cheaper interest rate than borrowing dollars on a so that means that lenders on Moro will require less less yield so then borrowers on our Moro Market can also borrow at a cheaper rate something like that and then what do we do like we have a Yi bearing tokenized stability pool token we put that into Spectra like it's about uh the the whole point of defi is like the Legos right so it's about being strategic about like how you can build things to do with your stable coin um to like solidify that monetary premium it's like this at least how how we thinking about it yeah Ethan I think you're really hitting home an important point that at the end of the day it all comes down to True unique value creation which is kind of sometimes ironically the hardest part of crypto at the end of the day um so gives us a bit of Hope for the new projects and the new players entering a very like incumbent heavy dominant space well we're on our last minute of the panel so I just want to thank everyone for coming here today and sharing your deep experience in this sub sector and if there's any last words you want to add um on the unique lens of yield bearing stable coins Now's the Time to do it but otherwise thank you again for joining us just buckle up I think it's going to be a great year for stable coins I actually think it's ironic that we're talking about Shield bearing stable coins uh because if you think about money there's three Bain features unit of accounts uh payments basically and then uh Reserve we're obviously all talking about the dollar there's no discussion about any other asset floating currency any other fat so the account is the dollar today uh when we're talking about payment it's very obvious that either fex or Circle has one and when you look at the reserve we're saying hey it's the dawn of yield bearing stable coins but today the biggest Reserve in the world is gold and Bitcoin so we're actually not competing with stable coins we're competing with gold and Bitcoin so I'd like to see I think the two biggest and most interesting milestones for yield bearing stable coinies will we be able to force Circle and tther to start doing yield bearing yield actually Revenue sharing and two can yield bearing stable coins become bigger than gold or Bitcoin become a better reserve next table Summit the million dooll question maybe for next year's panel Ethan gotp any last words I mean positioning um you know in front of all these stable con Market uh you you said it comes down creating value I think you know another way to create value is is performing Arbitrage essentially that's also what he is doing and I think you have a lot of Arbitrage to do you know like as a defi participant you go there's a lot of yield to enjoy but there's a lot of things you can build like on top of this and that's already very interesting you we've seen the growth of of integration of PT and lending Market all this like with crazy fixed rate we are talking to institutions that are like that want there is a huge demand for those rate this is because they're arbitraging something and so I think that's like very relevant part of of the ecosystem that we need more is like more arbitr on that that will essentially allow us to have like more organical integration and and and you know reset the scale a bit and not having to compete with the 35% heal because it's just fueled by thisy so yeah wonderful thank you everyone thank you to the panelists and thank you to the audience for joining us on this busy conference week have a great rest of your day thank you