PANEL: Managing Fragmented Liquidity in a Multichain World

baby [Music] [Applause] hey hello my name is Chris and as you can see I'm from L2 bit if you don't know L2 bit we are this website that compares different ethereum scaling Solutions and we've been researching multi-chain assets recently a lot as we are working on something coming soon and one thing I can tell you about multi-chain assets that we have much more questions than answers that's why I'm super excited for this upcoming panel and let me introduce to the stage our great panelists Irene from layer 0 Danielle from ovix [Applause] Jody from mantle and seraphim from Lido [Applause] let me just distribute the microphones yeah and let's start with a short round of introductions and by the way I will be looking at my phone but I have notes here I'm not tweeting at the same time uh let's do a quick round of introductions uh please give us a little background about yourself and the project you're representing Irene for sure hi thank you guys so much for having me here today my name is Irene I am head of strategy at larizer Labs layer zero Labs is the creator of both layer zero the protocol and Stargate layer 0 is an omnichine interoperability protocol and Stargate is the leading native asset Bridge thank you very much seraphim hey I'm sorry for him from Lido I call myself D4 expansionist means nothing really uh and Lido is a liquid staking protocol basically So yeah thank you very much Danielle uh hi I'm Adele I I'm I run a research team for a landing Market on uh polygon POS and polygon zkbm thank you very much Jody hey so I'm a strategic advisor to mantle so L2 L2 beats so mantle is going to be new L2 uh and some testnet have announcement very soon um and I'm advising on all kind of strategy matters and ecosystem uh matters and we're really excited with what's going to get launched it's a dial-backed um Layer Two which is quite new it's out of bit Dao which was you know a very large Dao it's been converted to mantle so yeah thank you very much and I want to keep it not just like me interviewing each of them but but rather as a discussion in which we can learn different perspectives from each of them so let's start with you know understanding what's going on D5 is definitely not an easy task and for example stable coins seem to be pretty simple concept at first but then like especially last year you realized that the family stablecoin is collateralized stable coins and Argos table cones and last year we realized these are not the same and that's even before we get into the details so today with the multi-chain world we're in it's even more complicated because we have all all those different types of the same asset we have native assets we have bridged tokens we have omnichine tokens Can you shed some light on how all these work together from the perspective of your projects and I will start with Jody yeah I mean like you said we have a lot of kinds of stable coins and um it was touched a little bit in the last discussion but they all different use cases and my opinion is that we will have specific ones designed for different use cases I think um you know the initial kind of stable coin that we had that found product Market fit was basically a checking account you know you have these coins that a bank is holding for you and you have them there you can transact with them but you don't get any yield so that's kind of like something that was missing with usdc usdt and then you're hoping that the bank you know doesn't go broke and everything works out um then you have something like Luna which you know was was an exciting part of last year where it's sort of algorithmically has this loophole we can get into that if we want to um and then the third category of something like die you know uh algorithmic but backed by a volatile asset that also has problems as we saw in multiple points so I think now the next generation is going to be first going from checking account to savings account so that's kind of where the multi uh chain world comes in one way which is for a checking account to become a savings account it doesn't really have to be about transactions you can just have your money in your savings account getting yield and you don't necessarily have to like move it to your friends it's not going to be used for for venbone for example so those assets can exist on multiple chains and because they don't necessarily need to move around all the time you can have different ways of getting yield so either you know something like um staking uh eth and getting using that yield to get a stable coin out of it you can uh you know use something like CRV USD where it's getting yield from transactions there's many ways to get yield um hopefully sustainable ways but those don't need to move around so I think for uh that category it's kind of okay and then you know Bridges and and things like messaging Protocols are needed for the second category which is uh the fungibility type of stable coins and and those ones you do want to move them around you want to transact and do different things with them so uh that's that's where everything else comes in the multi-chain world yeah and like what are difference between those different assets because like I like I would assume that W if is exactly the same as if like or at least very similar but is wbtc exactly the same as BTC no the answer is flat out no um and to kind of tie into his uh his answer it's not just the stable coins are uh fit different purposes uh we've had like great definitions of stable coins by the way today I think that my favorite one was was posted earlier uh give me token I give you USD or give me USD I give you a token great summary uh it was just missing the Algos which you brought up with Luna uh um I would add that on top of satisfying different use cases from um like from a lending parting standpoint um they also highlight different um uh like risks uh different risk profiles uh obviously uh Bridge tokens carry Bridge risk in the case of rapidc on on a polygon chain for example you carry you carry like a like a double risk right you have you have both the the bridge aging restaurant to polygon POS Plus on top of that you have you have the counterparty risk with uh um with bitco that's that that's the counterparty that that holds the actual Bitcoin in I might add a U.S jurisdiction so you have the this well part of the part of the counter priority risk is the jurisdictional risk and now to look back to stable coins the one thing the other thing is um you have different different kind of risks also in terms of like where different kind of counterparty risks right uh so we've talked about the usdcd pack today uh usdt is no stranger to deepegs I'd like to thank Paul Arduino is the the one person in crypto that has had to deal with it the largest cumulative amount of fud uh over the course of his career um in all of crypto someone correct me I I stand to be corrected by I don't think he can be beaten um uh and but we see that like the flood between USD and usdc can go both ways it doesn't just go do you just towards usdt because usdc lives in the United States usdt doesn't does not at least until now it is it is unclear how what is the extent the extent of the reach of the US government to usdt's um actual dollar reserves dollar back reserves assuming that you believe that they are fully backed I don't want to get into that so yeah there's like a lot of different uh risk profiles that have to be uh taken into account uh when when onboarding these tokens in into into D5 for for actual use you call it a really good point around Bridge risk and Bridge tokens and I think a lot of times people don't realize when they're using certain bridges that they're locking their value in a smart contract and getting an IOU on the other side or a synthetic asset that says uh you know when you want to come back across you're trusting the smart contract to protect all of those assets and uh when we at layer zero were thinking about how we were going to construct the protocol we were ultimately thinking about the use case with stable coins and that's what inspired a lot of our design principles and we thought to ourselves the risk should not be Perpetual in the hands of of users it should feel like interacting with uniswap in a way and uh when you make your transfer between chains you shouldn't always carry with yourself that uh like potential breach of security and then I think like native versus omnichine because you're asking about these three differences with circle they natively issue on particular chains and nearly every ecosystem we speak with that doesn't have natively issued usdc is like bad circled in their DMS every single day wanting that but Frankly Speaking issuers like Circle move very slowly so then you end up having wrappers actually today go of a stablecoin is launching and they're launching on Youth mainnet and one of the strategies the or conversations they need to have internally to figure out is how do we disincentivize rappers because once you have wrapped versions of your stable coin you as the stablecoin issuer don't have any control over it there could be some sort of hack and it affects your brand and you know users are harmed and downstream effects like what we're seeing with Phantom and we'll talk about that later with with multi-chain and the hack there will occur and then omnichine is is this new uh primitive and you know at layer zero we created something called the omnichine fungible token and it's a way to launch or convert erc20s into ones that are native on multiple chain chains and transfer seamlessly just by paying gas there are no pools of liquidity it's uh you know simply managing State between all of the the contracts that are deployed on different chains so you know we can dive into that a little bit more but I think understanding the difference between native bridge and Omni chain is really important if you're building a D5 vertical but also if you're managing an entire ecosystem like mantle yeah we'll we'll tackle security later on definitely is there anything you would like to add to this yeah I guess every chain once stake teeth that's the case now um probably the biggest use case of D5 now is just looping state of yield so every single layer to every single layer one need stake teeth and how to get there is a bridging question obviously and um they may there may or may not be something like a cttp for stake T from the next coming months I'm hoping that's going to be brought out uh before the end of the year and that way we can kind of go to BNB go to uh mantle much quicker you know um because yeah if you look at stake teeth on Layer Two this is absolutely exploding and that could be multiplied by going to mantle zkvm scroll BNB Etc so uh bridging is a big conversationalido at the moment yeah the fact that that we have all those bridged assets on every chain because as you mentioned like every chain wants this assets and every chain wants this their own version of the the of this asset but from the user perspective like what are the challenges that the users are facing with all those different Bridge assets all the different versions of this asset well for stake teeth specifically and I guess that applies to everything there should be one version of stake teeth everywhere otherwise it's a pain in the ass like it happened before with other assets and you had to like do a bunch of stuff you know to manage it basically ideally lighter Dow owns the keys to all that uh to you know stake teeth across the crypto ecosystem bridge should be upgradable and it should be one version of rap sticky for stake teeth across the board so no fragmentation is ideal yeah I was going to say you had mentioned that ecosystems want their own versions and I would argue that ecosystems all want the canonical um well regardless of fragmentation that's more risks uh from from a lending Market perspective uh because obviously uh the the main premise for for functional Landing Market is liquidations and uh for locations to be as healthy as possible you need ideally to have as little slippage as possible to swap in and out of um out of out of tokens so fragmentation is is definitely a problem from that perspective um however when it comes to the stable coins since there are so many stable coins it also comes with some pros uh the the risks that we've mentioned until now can also be spun around on their head um if you are short the dollar versus crypto uh Michael had this as a closing thought before as an answer to a question uh it's it's actually in your interest to borrow as many different stable coins as possible uh to to have the lottery you have a free lottery ticket on on on any given one of them depending at any given point right and you have effectively no downside to this thing unless you there's some reason to believe that any of these stable coins will I don't know Skyrocket and like deepeg upwards which is I was the the more unlikely of the of the two scenarios for for a DPAC um and and so you can actually benefit from from these from from these kind of risks depending on what your what Your what your user case profile is anybody wants to add something to this like from the user perspective like how how the how are people supposed to manage all those different types of assets I think like I said it's more like looking at the user's intention and not like okay there's 50 stable coins what do I do it's more what are you trying to achieve are you trying to just save your money somewhere and earn yield are you trying to like you know have it so you can transact are you trying to use it as collateral for something else are you just trying to farm you know Degen Farm each one of those has different um designs that make sense and some of them need more fungibility some of them liquidity doesn't really matter because you're just kind of getting yield on something and I think we're seeing interesting things now like something like Pendle I like because it starts to break up things into like the the constituent parts and you can you know you can break out the yield component and it'll be a separate token and it'll be the underlying can be a separate token something I'm personally interested in that we're working with an app that will deploy a mantle is actually avoiding all the liquidations so when you have something like die you know it goes down they have to start liquidating Youth and you know there's a whole mess and sometimes it gets systemic as we saw a couple years ago so another idea another completely different design that hasn't been seen much apart from blend a little bit is having non-liquidation loans where you can create stable coins out of a volatile asset so that sounds strange like how can you get non-liquidation you know dye type of asset from ethereum if ethereum goes down then like what's going to happen who's going to take the loss so the idea is sort of like Pendle you break these things out into two different things so one can be a put option that somebody backstops and you know puts a price on it maybe they want five percent yield to you know let's say uh ethereum is a two thousand dollars you can issue stable coins up to one thousand dollars and you get a separate institution that kind of uh at a discount buys the one token at let's say 95 so they're earning five percent to say if ethereum goes below one thousand we will backstop it so there's no loss there's no liquidation needed and you started creating these dynamics that are a lot safer you're not having like you know uh Oracle manipulation risk you're not having these other risks so we're kind of looking forward to innovating and creating more like safe user experience because users don't want to go to sleep and then worry that you know they're going to wake up and the thing will have Wicked down and like liquidated their their asset so um I think it'll be more development in that space I love the Pendle team also and they converted their Pendle token to an oft actually using layer zero but I think when you're talking about user issues you also want to reduce the number of clicks as as possible like we don't often talk about churn in in defy and building these user experiences but if you're trying to execute a DFI strategy across five different chains and now we're in a world where they're like so many l2s and users want to move their tokens between them quickly and they're willing to pay for that convenience by pricing their risk differently you have to design those those user flows to be friendlier and I think that's that's a huge issue and so if you're going through wrapped asset Bridges or have to go to centralized exchanges and and exchange their uh it's just way more likely that you'll end up churning from whatever you are intending to do in the first place yeah I saw it a lot like me using many different many different you know chains I often get caught in like I want to do something but oh I have it on that chain and now I have to bridge so now I have to wait for like I don't know 15 minutes let's say and yeah like how could we how can we you know help it how can we fix that well I can speak to how Stargate was designed for example and and right now it's uh on D phylama for example the most uh widely used Bridge per 24 hours of transactions and interestingly the most popular pathways are arbored from to optimism back and forth and so the L2 to L2 bridging experience I think what we've seen uh proven is that users want that to be quick and so they're using a bridge like Stargate more than they use native Bridges and how Stargate works is Unified pools of liquidity it's only native assets and ofts so for ofts there doesn't need to be pools of liquidity it's just like I said gas transfer it's a message that gets sent and the state is managed between all of them but otherwise we use the the Delta algorithm which is like an accounting and balancing algorithm across uh the the different Native assets on on the I think it's eight chains that we're live on right now so that's one way that we're trying to solve for this yeah I guess ideal scenario is that they don't even have to think about bridging if they live on arbitrim there's a ampodex liquidity to buy from uh theoretical scenario you can mint State on that chain so hopefully they're not even supposed to think about that stuff we just have to create ecosystems in every layer so one ideal scenario maybe for bridging would be that uh people from other chains find a way to migrate to ethereum like there's a huge B and B ecosystem obviously that I like a lot and it'll be kind of cool if they learn to actually move their funds to ethereum play around there that's just my but that's just my view really the reality is they shouldn't think about bridging much they should be just developed ecosystems to tap into I do hope that in like a year or less there are applications that have abstracted away like all the clicks that are involved in bridging in the the latency there and uh we're seeing some of those like I mean I don't know if you guys saw like the Keynes announcement for the like the the new synthetics uh Dax that he's doing and you know some of the things we're going to be seeing are going to be maybe more C5 onto D5 at least experience wise and maybe you know not your keys not your coin maybe you know that's great phrase for you know hardcore Bitcoin or is trying to uh maintain their wealth but for just an app experience maybe it is going to be a little more centralized on the experience maybe your keys get held in your browser or somewhere else like you know we kind of find find a safe way to do those things um and I think with bridging as well you know obviously FTX went down a lot of people using FTX to bridge onto um Solana right so that going away we're seeing Solana tvl kind of struggle a little bit like how is money safely get onto Solana at this point um so looking at a multi-chain world you know maybe there will be some centralized players that have to play some part in getting people from Fiat onboarded into like the broader ecosystem and kind of bridging everything um obviously you know mantle is closely partnered with by bit so there's there's some uh benefit for potentially doing some bridging from Fiat uh through there um you know other exchanges participate to a certain extent uh I mean you know with l2s they're all trying to get as many you know you want binance you want like all the different options as well um ultimately we just want users to have a good experience and to your point you know it might take 15 minutes to get from bridge to bridge like if blockchains are cities it does take some time to travel between the cities and you know for the l2s they want to create a good city so people want to stay there they want it to be safe you know you don't want like a Chicago kind of city where people are getting rugged all the time you want you want a safe City and hopefully people stay there and the ecosystem grows and there's enough liquidity to do you know more um activity um I like that there's also that uh you know with all the the developments happening in the the zero knowledge world and even on bitcoin with discrete log contracts on the lightning Network um we might not get to a point where we can have Atomic transactions between all sorts of tokens on their under various native chains uh but we can we can get to like hackie in between solutions that then that then iterate over uh over time um whereby you could you could you could get bitcoiners to effectively um uh access a perpetuals protocol on on any on an evm chain uh with a discrete law contract because as long as as long as the bitcoiner agrees to who's going to be uh the the like the the Oracle for the specific value transfer on their on their Bitcoin Channel like which can be anything it could literally be anything um uh you can you can get bitcoiners to play around on on evm chains because like like from like from from the Bitcoin standpoint the Bitcoin ecosystem standpoint they like the the push there is to figure out how to build default on top Bitcoin which is which is way harder to do than it is on on an evm chains for uh obvious uh obvious like smart contract language reasons um but um there's a lot of capital that is tied up in the Bitcoin ecosystem and um figuring out how to get access to this capital in in while still satisfying as much as possible the not your keys not your coins uh um ethos uh I think there's a lot of Headway that can still be done uh in in that Avenue I love that and will actually dissect both like first let's uh let's get to it what Jordy said like you you mentioned that yeah sometimes it just has to take 15 minutes because it is what it is and I like this approach because I think that uh you know while trying to figure out how to fix all those issues like usability is very of course very important aspect but if what's even more important from from my perspective and what is a huge Focus for LD is security and risk profiles you know associated with with all those different cross chain techniques and you know securing smart contracts is tough in itself and multi-chain brings another set of challenges and you know we can't not mention uh recent events with multi-chin hack and what happened to Phantom liquidity due to that and this reminds us that all those assets like are not like all those bridged or you know cross Gene assets are not necessarily exactly the same the native assets that they represent so what is your take on this like how do how should we how should we approach security and securing and informing users about different risk aspects of all these multi-chain you know tokens it seems like the CEO should not own the whole Bridge that's my takeaway let's start with that I mean this is a big problem right because like you've got other Bridge bridging Solutions and which this is a Chinese situation but this could also happen in the states right like if some big bridging provider completely based in the states SSC or FBI knocks in the dawn like oh yeah shut it down like what are we going to do now right so um that's something that's not just related to Chinese um politics and well no because what you're describing is a service right like it's dependent on the Creator company to maintain the Integrity of it and so if the Creator company you know gets into a horrible accident or is arrested then if you've integrated this or your stack is based off that bridge you're screwed uh it's the difference between a protocol and a service like a protocol should be an immutable primitive that exists forever anyone can uh compose it integrate it into their protocol and regardless of the liveness of the Creator company can continue using it and so like that in itself I think is a really important design principle for cross-chain messaging and bridges um and you know in the case of phantom they treated multi-chain assets as canonical even without a prefix which I think was also quite harmful for user awareness and like consumer safety uh because ultimately those are wrapped assets and now they're like horribly depegged and users are have no idea what to do with those assets actually same applies to oracles when you look at top three Oracles in this space what are the chances that one of these oracles get prices from like people from the same building you know like we all know there's a bunch of these kind of solutions out there in in the top five right so theoretically someone walks it walks in a regulator says shut down the oracles what now we've got no bridging we've got nothing you know we're [ __ ] so yeah at one point you had mentioned uh Bridges and wanting them to be upgradable and I think like a slight pushback I think that it's so important that uh cross train messaging protocols and then the one layer below above those are actually comprised only of immutable smart contracts like only with immutability can you uh be assured of forever permissionlessness and also perhaps censorship resistance uh if you wouldn't accept an upgrade to your Ledger or to your treasure for example which would be like such a strange and disarming thing uh why would you accept the same for your D5 protocol and for a lot of these Bridges they're made of upgradable contracts and even if it's a benign upgrade something that's meant to improve the protocol oftentimes there are bugs and those those upgrades in fact nearly every single hack from 2022 is caused by smart contract upgrades not its inherent architectural flaws and so I I think when you're you know selecting your Bridges or designing them thinking about immutability and whether the technology itself was built to withstand regulatory crackdowns for example like if your technology is built in a way that can make it perverted to whatever political environment we're in it will be changed to to you know censor messages for example but if you've built your technology so that's immutable and it cannot comply with a different regulatory environment then it it won't be and and that's something that was really important to us when we were designing our protocol uh so like I want to push back a little bit on this I agree I agree with the majority thing you said but what if what if the upgrade um is an upgrade that reduces uh the the rule set of the protocol uh and is only opt-in I think opt-in is is a really important piece so for example how we design layer zero protocols so that it was comprised entirely of immutable contracts but could evolve with research was that uh we created it so the off-train infrastructure is is always open and permissionless anyone can run those components but the endpoints which are the smart contract libraries we deploy to each of those chains are fully immutable but we could deploy new endpoints that applications can point their contracts towards so that means you know five or ten years from now maybe there's a different validation technique that is trusted by our entire industry maybe there's a smart contract library that leverages uh optimistic rollups or ZK and applications can take their time to vet how long the security has been uh like how long it has secured the value for and you know even read the code themselves and then opt in and we actually debated this quite a lot at the beginning of the year I want to repeat it right now but I want to ask you like in this all multigen world isn't it like that if we have those interconnected interconnected assets that are representing all those different chains isn't it that they you know the the uh the the lowest security chain of of those is this weak spot that you know compromises all of them for bridges that are designed in like a hub and smoke model that that's certainly true or bridges that are sort of like ultimately middle chain I'd be curious to hear your guys's thoughts as well she's the bridging expert right I'm just I mean I'll say just like in general you know users want a stable coin to be a stable coin they don't want to like deal with any kind of risks like whether it's bridging risk whether it's depeg risk or any of these risks so it's up to builders and like the providers to really start abstracting all of them when I say all of them I mean all of them so like I said like there is a way to get insurance on certain things right like uh even Luna had like some insurance on UST Depot um there's a way to get Bridge insurances at some point we just need to get these things to a scale where it's cheap enough so that third parties can potentially like um backstop certain risks that exist and create the user experience in a very you know dumb way or like something like anchor could Thrive because all people needed to do was just you know click click and that was it um of course that you know uh it didn't didn't actually stay stable it stayed stable at zero in the end so um when it comes to like bridging risk and things like that I really think that we can't that the future is not going to be like the last few years where we have these massive hacks 500 million like this can't happen that's existential if that is the future and I would say like even more important than insurance is uh if you're a stable coin issue you should own part of your security layer uh certainly not unilateral control but I should be able to just like you know how we talk about uh actually like owning testing your own funds uh you shouldn't be relying on a service like I had said before to to manage the movement between chains for your stable coin but one thing is that like the the bridging but other is like the origin the the origin of the of the asset like for example if I have things that are bridged somewhere but they are based on the ethereum I realize that okay even if the bridge does something weird then still ethereum secures my like the origin of these assets but what happens if the origin is somewhere like what is what happens if the origin is some chain that I can't really rely on that is controlled by like three out of five multi-sake and what how should I tweet treat no assets Bridge from this chain um [ __ ] around and find out literally the same literally the same thought look around find out get wrecked it's it's crypto it's like it's I mean if you believe if you believe in in like I don't know the open market capitalism of crypto that comes that is born out of you know the modularity and the in the permissionlessness of crypto that this is part and parcel it's like people that one argument is that um people getting getting getting rugged getting wrecked getting screwed is is is is part of comes part and parcel with how we we evolve as an ecosystem like someone has to take a hit for us to court like for the information to coordinate around what the best practices are if nobody got wrecked we wouldn't really we would either have to be Immaculate at conception which we aren't uh or or what we're we're not really serious let's be honest we enjoy getting wrecked we love it yeah two two two wreck people on stage oh we love it you know we've actually I will say I I've seen a few protocols go through a really painful transition it having made that exact mistake um and uh you know like we're talking about stable coins here today but for example there are so many games that invest in maybe 100 million dollars to build their game in the Terra Luna ecosystem and then after the whole collapse like their their project is stranded or their nft collection that whole community's stranded uh and you know the way that we've tried to help them move off was actually the Inception of our oft and omt standards like you should not have to uh like style your project or make your project dependent on the success of a particular chain like sure polygon or Avalanche or any of these chains are are very trusted today and and you know we love working with all those those ecosystems and Foundations but this is a very rapidly evolving ecosystem so your assets shouldn't be tied to a particular ecosystem if I can add a point here this is where um like dap chains and supernets and and all those things come into play right because then if you run your own adaption you also have the freedom to potentially commit the state of your dap chain to whatever blockchain you care for it could even be multiple blockchains so if one blockchain goes down you could in theory you know like trustlessly reboot from another on another with their state on another blockchain you know or just not be affected by the main but by any given blockchain that you're tied into yeah you still have the problem with the bridged assets though you know but that still exists thank you very much so we've covered disability we covered security and now let's talk about a bit uh about Capital efficiency because like spreading attacking across different chains through different Bridges makes each individual liquidity quite low and on the other hand concentrating liquidity in one place likes make it hard for newer chains to attract Builders like everybody wants to build on ethereum because the liquidity is an ethereum and how to how to address this like especially I'm curious for Jody like how do we address the the fact that that we have to somehow attract this liquidity that we have to what attract the liquidity oh um yeah I mean each ecosystem is is all thinking about liquidity I mean uh you know fermental it's a little bit easier because there's a dow that has you know billions of dollars of uh assets under its treasury that the Dow manages and so a lot of that will kind of naturally go to uh to the mental ecosystem um I think you know Arboretum was in a good spot where they kind of got a flywheel of activity and they managed to have people bring liquidity there um yeah I think ultimately like there there can't be infinite versions of each thing that does have to be like some liquidity constraint obviously with Lido we're seeing that people generally prefer to um kind of congregate something that is very easy to transact with in different places but you know there is space to make more illiquid assets and stable coins like I said if if the point of it is yield um then it doesn't really matter so much you can just hold it there's no Capital efficiency in that point because it's just one-to-one you're just holding it and earning yield um Capital efficiency otherwise you know with D5 we like composability we like using as collateral on dexes there's some cool dexes out there that are already doing like the FTX model of cross-collateral and those are going to become more and more popular I think so you know you can just put your stake teeth and trade derivatives and it'll use that as a collateral that's very Capital efficient for example um so I think those things will kind of like naturally evolve I think Capital fish is an interesting in terms of Lido because uh last six months out of nowhere we have a bunch of these uh liquidy Forks backed by steak teeth and our AFC beef Etc and I think they're kind of cool it's just that yeah some of them can scale a lot but I don't think they can scale massively just because yeah it's not Capital efficient we're going to see the same situation as with decentralized stable coins most of them at least but whoever figures out how to you know be backed by osts that is earn yield and at the same time have a one-to-one backing as a stable coin would be well that would be amazing right that could actually not compete with tether per se to start with but get as close as it gets to that you know yeah to your point about driving liquidity to new ecosystems I mean having spoken with the polygon supernets team with the Avalanche subnets team op Labs with with the super chain and even like arbitrum orbit now by the end of year we're going to have like 50 new chains that have you know thriving or are trying to have thriving ecosystems and so we we simply cannot assume that there will be significant pools of liquidity that are independent on each of those and so uh I think this is actually where omnichanning tokens come in like it's incredibly important that tokens can just transfer seamlessly between all of them without needing pools of liquidity uh and btcb is an interesting example of this avalabs issued a version of rap Bitcoin via their C chain and then converted it to an oft and and since the conversion the token supplies doubled and new ecosystems like uh cordov for example I asked or asking the team for btcb and you know they just deploy an oft contract there and and now they can move seamlessly between all of them and the like deposit volume of bgcb has also doubled since then in protocols like like Ave and the velocity of usage has gone up as well so again we just cannot rely on Independent pools of liquidity if by end of year we're going to have 50 new like bases or a chain all of these others and will usdc be you know deployed natively in all of them I think highly unlikely uh we have cctp now which is the attestation service with circle launched and bridges and messaging protocols can plug into it but I I think by end of year it'll only be on maybe three three chains and that's that's really exciting uh but for every single one of these these new app chains like super nuts and subnets don't have native assets there unless omnichine tokens are deployed there uh so you know for for a game like I said or uh a D5 protocol and an app chain they need to have some form of native stablecoin as well maybe it's Heather will no actually they started prioritizing D5 finally so uh we might see some tether cctp coming out by the end of the year maybe I have a question for the projector uh what about um uh light climb Bridges what about light climb Bridges as in how can they fit into all of this yeah yeah um well elaborate a little bit more do you just mean like why would a would a project want to use a light client Bridge or yeah yeah I from my conversations with all these teams that are launching their own app chains they they are actually more interested in having like native versions of their tokens there and so the Omni chain token model makes a lot more sense for them like take mantle for example there's a stablecoin team that we're speaking with and uh they know that we'll be live on day one for base and Linea and uh you know unannounced but likely mental like we're a huge fan of of their team and project and so as soon as as we're there they simply just deploy of T contracts there as well hook them up with the set trusted remotes and now they truly have these native stable coins there and as we talked about or as seraphim said users eventually shouldn't have to go through a bridge and in fact with only chain tokens you don't have to go through a bridge uh protocols can can build in a user flow where it's simply just one click and it's a transfer we are running out of time soon so there is one more thing that I would like to discuss because there was something that actually we tackled a lot recently and how do we measure all those things all the liquidity in those cross train crossing environments so like imagine if I have a token on chain a and I transfer it to chain B and then I move it to chain C and then back again to chain a and assume that I'm using different you know different methods of transferring these tokens through all those chains like what is the liquidity of this token on each of those chains so my naive answer would be assets minus liabilities whenever you do all these things there's there's liabilities going all around the all around the books uh take the source assets subtract all the liabilities and that's the true value of the token so but if I if I have a let's say usdc Bridge from bridge not natively like minted on another chain if I Bridge it does it mean that there is like it's an IOU like should I should I count this uh this asset on this second bridge on the second chain as well and how it it goes through a wrapped asset bridge and it's an IOU it's it's not like one to one uh and I think with some D5 protocols it's hard to uh like with lending and borrowing protocols it's it's hard to accurately represent the fact that like wrapped asset versions of a token aren't actually worth the same value as as the real deal but I think tactically I'm not sure if you're asking this in particular if you have an omni chain token it's moving across all these different chains without needing pools of liquidity how you would calculate the total Supply is just the aggregate circulating Supply and how we actually you know we we don't discuss tvl metric uh as much as as we should probably we rely on it all the time but you know right now if if I have usdc in uh you know in ethereum and I Bridge it to optimism actually right now it's counted twice usually and if I if I Bridge it from optimism to some other chain usually it's counted for the third time because like it's content is locked locked token in optimism and then minted on the second chain like have you seen any approaches to actually try to figure it out what on the Practical level I would only care about Dex liquidity I think like the actual TV are available for transactions and the rest is like don't think matters as much to be fair um so yeah I think the solution is just the June dashboard with all the layer tools and see what the Dex liquidity is in um and uh yeah Bob's your uncle you know I mean tvl is this like weird metric there should obviously be a star because you know not just because like Alameda we'd know would put like a billion dollars and then take it out and then put in the next one and you know like on Solana like the the same one developer would just make 10 protocols that would use each other as rap tokens and then suddenly there's like 100 billion of TBL um you know we see that with trading as well like if you can get a situation where the trading fees are zero or not zero you can watch Infinite Back and Forth not seeing any anyone does this but you know uh even like when it's transparent like hyper liquid you know sometimes it'll show like 300 million volume in some you know coin nobody knows about and it's not exactly like that it's because when you don't have transaction fees metrics change their meaning and so like you know volume traded volume that has a different meaning and tvl can have a different meaning if you keep like counting wrapped uh tokens so I think it's a bit of education and and you know the providers of uh dashboards hopefully can clean up and be like reliable sources of information okay so I would like to leave every one of you to allow you to do a round of one last thought I'd like to leave the audience with regarding our account topic Irene yeah sure uh tomorrow I'm speaking on a panel about real world assets and I I'm really excited about tokenization of T bells for example and I think the omnichine approach is particularly creative to that and so my parting message is just like that's a space to watch and I I know of a few really really exciting initiatives coming out that I think will bring net new users in uh and that's exciting so so adding to this like my question is is tokenizing real world assets actually bridging like and the native bridge is simply the real world like the native chain is the real world yeah for sure meet space is a blockchain yeah okay so last last thought from from the uh for me well so again I'm I'm I'm odd one out here on the stage I just represent a lowly protocol um but um like I want to tie into a previous answer I gave which was on the the [ __ ] around and find out as to a way to communicate information and like we'll be we protocols will be there trying to offer Financial Solutions for people to effectively bet and gamble on all these developments because some will fail and some will not and that's where the opportunity lies and that's where information will be conveyed Jody I'm just excited that you know there are still people looking at Innovation and we're really excited about Innovation we want not just like copy pasting the same idea and taking a small contract and putting a different front end we do love Builders and people even not on anywhere that in the space are really trying to do something to push the avant-garde kind of forward seraphim yeah what I'm really excited about is uh Lila committing to V2 in decentralization so there's going to be a little panel of 19th about with b2p about um um kind of staking and I'm hoping that in the next one or two years we can make everyone proud of atlado and just expand the validator sets of thousands of people so that you can never shut ethereum down so that's something I'm really excited about thank you very much and let's give a round of applause to our great panelists today thank you thank you and I believe that we have still some like few minutes for questions are there any questions for our panelists um how long do you think uh think um layer 0 will take to take over like the the volume that multi-chain basically processed over the last year or something and also do you think well how long do you think layer 0 0 will take to will be able to offer to bridge to all of the the small side chains that basically multi-chain um was yeah offering yeah like the the tell uh and there uh well I'll start by saying that multi-shane hack is is truly devastating and I I I've been in Paris for a few weeks now and I have been in discords just like talking one-on-one with so many people who are affected and it really really is is a sad and colossal one um multi-chain is the sort of Legacy bridge and incumbent and many projects are reaching out now to ask for help in unwinding assets and moving over to oft I think the most uh recent and very successful example was the MIM token Abracadabra team uh luckily did this whole migration before the hack uh and since moving to oft I think they've reached like 1 million transfers so that's been great uh you know we're open to have those discussions with projects and so I hope that these projects can find stability and and uh you know get the support they need from all these other Primitives as soon as possible I don't have a a time stamp on when I think that transition will have been made but I also think the foundations of ecosystems that were particularly affected me to take a very active role in supporting their ecosystem this is not the time to do like a a tweet thread or and just sort of stand back um and then in terms of uh your second question was just broadly about was it layer zero growth basic process oh all the all the energy volume and yeah um well the really exciting thing is we're spending a lot of time with OP labs and a few of these other uh Labs teams that are now launching like very rapid uh app chain uh deployments to figure out a quicker way for example like with shared sequencers and whatnot to to provide uh arbitrary message passing but between these chains but for layer 0 to launch an endpoint on an evm compatible chain it's negligible work at this point for non-evms it's a lot trickier so you know for example there will be a non-evm that we intend to launch on very soon but the the difference in in code it's like 2000 lines of solidity for an endpoint on an evm and for this non-evm it's about 50 000 lines of code in in that programming language and so if you think about the risk there it's just a magnitude of like higher so that means you know we're looking to do 10 external audits do blue and red team testing internally private test net then public testnet um and you know take our time with it there's no reason to rush we have to get it right and uh our ecosystem can't afford another exploit are you also um how do I say correctly they carry on the flame that multi-chain actually was developing right now because as um like there were a few developments going on basically the first one was the ZK evm stuff and the other thing was the ZK router stuff which was developed by by shua I think uh or Alfred um as he's known uh and they were close to launching it already and as as far as I recall everything is open sourced um from the router and from how I see it it would be a shame like if all of those developments would not carry on in some shape or form um and uh yeah actually you're you're number two now you're number one the great thing about open source code is that any developer can go in and pick that up and so we'll be really excited to see teams do that uh our architecture and design and even just like ethos and core principles at layer zero are so different from that of the multi-chain team so I you know we have a defined product launch roadmap for the next six months and I you know are really excited to get that out but if teams have like requests for what they need to build in a more secure and efficient way cross chain reach out because most of our roadmap is just informed by the inbound and the DMS that I get every day okay that's good to know thank you do we have any other question yeah there hey my name is Nadeem um I have one question regarding um bridging for example as a service I mean it also accounts for other services that come from a protocol um I mean there is the end user but then there's also other protocols that are using this service like similar to a service agreement in traditional world where I have a contract and if my service sir is failing to provide I can sue and I have this layer of protection I think we are completely missing this because when we are for example I'm part of a team that is developing a stable coin when we are using another protocol as a service we are completely yeah we don't have any control we of course we can buy governance tokens but probably we don't have the money so like I'm wondering how can we um yeah how can what kind of mechanism can we introduce to protect the part of the service that we are using from another protocol that provides a service my off the cuff response is if you're issuing something like a stable coin like so so important and it is supposed to be the lifeblood of a defy ecosystem you should not be relying on services in your infrastructure stack they should be like immutable Primitives and if there's a security risk involved you should own part of that and be participating in it your your community your delegates whatever governance should also be a part of that too and there are ways you can do that and I think I had touched on it earlier and I'm happy to chat with you a little bit more after around how you should do that but uh no I mean even Services just run out of Runway like there are teams that can't raise their their series Aim so they're just going to shut down operations and what if that was an integral part of your infrastructure stack you'll have failed all of your users yeah I would add to that that we should rely on code like in distance like if if we can't rely on code that we are not building crypto there it is we should talk more hours yeah yeah is there any other question there might be but this goes over lunch time okay thank you very much thank you so much thank you [Applause] Reserve protocol kicking it off make sure you don't miss it enjoy the food