Standards in Ethereum - how do we make them, how should we? (Devcon5)

[Applause] [Music] one second yeah the basic I hear the whole session is okay the different ways that we make a standard variable is there different bits of the puzzle different approaches to doing it what are we doing in each place how does it work what do we like about each approach and learn because each place has different constraints different factors that influence what you actually can do in that environment so we I'm Charles actually it paid by Pegasus to all intents of people so it for the enterprise of the airline's my job is making sure the standard stuff they works dan Burnett I've been doing web and Internet standards for about twenty years I got a dozen specs to my name they're currently working on decentralized identifiers at w3c some of you may have heard of that may not know my problem I am in the yeah I'm in the Pegasus standards group with Charles Foundation hi my name is Joey person to area might come to you only on JavaScript the standards in the language and I also work with a number of different open source and standard notably the one I'm going to talk to you today about shared one minute I'm Nick Johnson leads the Nexus yeah yeah so you know we I'm the one who put this bowl little stuff up on this slide so it's interesting if you asked someone what a standard is there are very very very very different definitions depending on which group you're talking to and what they want to accomplish and arranges all the way from someone saying well basically the two of us agreed we wrote this down we have a standard okay all the way to our way you know one of the most extreme is sort of if you look at ISO you know you have five years of discussion through a whole bunch of working dogs committees drives international standards and eventually you have boats from member you know member country standards organizations to publish and so there's there's really you know basically virtually no process to kind of extreme process and so we didn't really want to start with a a definition more than just to say that there are disagreements about what it means to be a standard and so now as we talk through different activities different approaches different factors that you can use to distinguish among different standards organizations and processes you can see what the variety is and we can discuss you know as a group what are what are the aspects that we would like for the etherium community aware [Music] so basically we set this up in pieces a couple of us would work with two or three heads on different places over there presents some basic things that we do in different organizations hopefully what briefly just enough to understand what actually happens and then it's about discussion about what what do we all want to do right how do we want this work so today we'll be kind of looking at each of these organizations through the lens of a few different factors that help you think about the differences between these organizations so as Dan was saying earlier if you think about the definition of standard just simply being for our sake here in this classroom today agreement how did we reach it there are a few different ways we can look at reaching that goal reaching microbrew : agreement and we'll talk about the w3c EEA the EIP process these the methods they use the factors save you to reach that but and the thing we want you to really take with you is that that process that standards / agreement making a process is one that we all known as as a community of technologists so if you don't like the process you can participate in changing your process and that should also be part of your consideration so these are some of the factors that you'll want to bear in mind and that we'll talk about and the first is governance that's often a bit of a buzzword I think this is simply to simplify it we are talking about policies that support decision making could be a process for how we decide that a decision needs to be paid it can be a process for the decision itself it could be other policies that support who gets to make that decision it doesn't and I had one thing that yeah this is it governance mean and for standards organizations comes down to what happens when there's a disagreement who decides right that that's ultimately and there may be different levels you know that you go through but in every organization if you want to know in the end how it works you look at the end of the chain and see who is the final arbiter who makes the decision is it Tim berners-lee in the the web world is it is it mythology okay I think anyway so and I'm not arguing that either one of those is actually correct I'm just saying you know it's good to know where the final decision lies and that's largely what we talk about governance although it ends up getting expressed in a variety of formal 7:01 informal ways so the next factor we want you to bear in mind is an IPR which is a acronym for intellectual property rights and that may be important to you it may not be but in the world of formal standards setting it ends up being extremely important and it's one of the key differentiators between a lot of the standards bodies that you are familiar with like the debaters and they're different because they have different approaches to this topic which is quite less so they have a lot of legal support a lot of staff who focused on policy segments setting here and understanding how different specifications how the copyright over the patents are are granted I really do which is we put this out in the public domain and anyone can use it is not a patent policy it's a [ __ ] disaster waiting to happen oh yeah doesn't do the comment I was gonna make not known as that every standards organization starts with no rules and there and no process and actually want it that way if you look at my ETF when it started they were very loose and gradually they had to get more restrictive and you'll notice if you go to any IETF meeting that internet engineering task force meeting they put up a no well slide at the beginning of every working group every call every everything and they say if you know do not understand the contents of this slide do not speak do not give an opinion in any way shape or form okay that's not an accident they got to that point because they because there were lawsuits that eventually forced them together that w3c hated the process based on the I 80th and one day through C was formed things were fairly loose and open and guess what a company came in and they actually argued for specification being developed a certain way and then once the specification was done and all the implementations were out they sued all the implementers because they have admin on a core piece of technology that they pushed into this back ok so you know what I hate to say it every every or go students look we don't want to deal with that stuff until I read get sued and then you're like oh shoot we got to do it too so we're going to talk about thing to note about this is these assurances these policies assist a specification or standard and being accessible to certain levels of business and governments right so they are very very concerned with making sure that the provenance of the IP is secure and that's what this that's why this ends up in an open source where you're just sort of rapidly anime but once I was businesses start to rely on actually I probably should okay loco again but we had a conversation a diversity of learning foundation security movement that RN and he said that actually is number one problem that he has with donated code for projects implements foundation is the provenance of the code they because when people start projects they don't track it at all but when it gets donated he's the one has to go and actually check every essentially every commit going back into history to find out where it came from and what intellectual property restrictions there might be on it he says it's just an absolute disaster and nightmare for him today so he's working on I'm trying to come up with a better way in exam so I know we're spending a lot of time on that it's because nobody likes to talk about it but I think it's good for people in this room to understand where it comes from you know and why we end up having to deal with it what's the right level process in the journey like you said with over three sit as a function always all these things know know what they know now would they upon day one added all those processes in yeah yeah but I've a single one of them so you aren't even be for today in this community beverage had all these perceptions on census me you should have the minimum an anniversary as possible to not get caught out like do stuff because we don't like marching in lines it's about we want to make sure that the problem does not come because we stopped it before it's done so you should have fairly lightweight thing as we go through the different organizations we'll look at what they do and that's you now III see patent process which on any with any major sort of it many many times is actually not very painful at all very lightweight if you're doing the right thing completely trivial when something bad happens and turns up with a patent there is a mechanism for dealing with it that is about as painless as you can get dealing with patents which is life that's not sticking red-hot pokers into you there's a little bit but I also have explanatory it will be obviously a disgusting idea in that review process really by that these organizations some review period by the public by a broader membership by an outside is or by a group of people concerned about for example accessibility or internationalisation for security and a lot of times these organizations will require other kinds of review so that [Music] and the last factor that you'll want to consider is which other people or organizations or industry partners to participating in that group because that will make a difference on whether it makes sense to bring your standardization project to that area and you'll want to look for places where there's overlap or their companies you might want to work with so I can people just probably go right into our different standards activities and as pertains to [Music] so asus is fairly new this they are new to bacteria not very long ago the research team along with consensus and yeah I purchased about starting this and this open project and you can check out but the purpose was really to try and start building what we thought might be a gap to help support standards making where the idea might be that the group wants to produce a normal standard is something that would eventually be able to go up through to a national standards body or an international standards body like the ISO and and check out our abstract there on the repository but we want to basically provide some guidance and some support for folks who want to produce standards in that way Oasis itself has been doing this for a really long time they started actually in the nineties sgml the standardized generally standard generalized markup language a long time ago and related XML standard spectrum everything now a lot of their standardization activities focus on security and privacy it's a pretty large organization there are thousands of people who have contributed to these standards and there's several hundred standards that they produced this is a canvas or shop so if they're typically industry members who come with projects that want to work with other folks in the industry to produce Oasis standard and move along the national standards track up to again the national international bodies like I so arrays not very long ago at all actually back in March we announced and open projects programs so if you can think about it in a traditional standards development there's probably a number of different [Music] stereotypical sort of thoughts you might have about that but they aren't really known for doing the open source work Oasis has been supporting open source projects that assist its technical committees for some time and we wanted to open up a program for open source projects that want to benefit from a standards track possibility so which is a growing number of open source projects the program helps provide technical governance and Fiscal agency so have you're part of a service project you want to be able to spend money we provide the intellectual property rights the development support so you need legal supporters we need community management and to it it's not a membership organization and this program is not a member or it operates on the sponsorship do so companies can come in and she was to sponsor projects like etherion as SME and the American Foundation have done and that cost is on a sliding scale and I think a lot of times in our communities we're very concerned about where the money comes from and that kind of thing so just being transparent here but anybody can participate in the other projects cerium open project there's technical activities to do so however and again this gets back to that provenance concern you care about and IPR they must sign a CLA that includes a patent on the cert when you met stick anything in there and go sue everybody looking at the those factors this group is as open it's free there's no cost to participate if you're a member of the community and we want to contribute to that committee of writing a specification because it brings you joy and happiness and please you can do that and if you are a company or an organization that wants to to support it in some way and wants to help drive a longer-term direction for example sponsor and participate from the project governing board IPR it's is royalty-free and our projects have to use one of several other image open-source licenses members to be scared about now Jeju and MIT it works like that it works Tyler for the group is very similar to how you work in an open source the capacity to move out of activity on github mailing lists teleconference calls as needed effective things the decision-making standpoint the steering groups operate on consensus but again for the formal piece of it a standard through a standard strike it has to be bringing rise the project is able to develop and improve their own specs that you can stop there but choose to make a project or make a specification a normal standard with oasis that means it has to go through choices approval process which provides member and public review periods so the work areas that we're looking to get started on started with our JSON RPC so if you who want to get involved with this I really encourage me to become you know file an issue of the repository where come chat with me because these are really good strapping right now we don't have it's like a green field in space we'll give you this wives and then you would be interested in so there's also roughly it's like this is a piece of work you want to do so we have in our 70s technical steering committee to say we have steering the defeat of the development or but that's the group that does them yeah it's not a planning they actually the world just like a working room in IETF or nbc/universal I'm sure yeah he had posted three Milan's basically we trying to what we're trying to do is extend the theorem architecture the thing I love about a theorem piece is based on stems and so we happen to take things that that Enterprise by which I mean both giant fat cat million dollar companies and organizations like your local government run garbage collection service health service if you live in a civilized country any kind of organization who wants to build stuff wants to go out of the etherium but once permission networks wants private transactions and so on you could do these things by yourself and build by yourself the point of a EA is if we have an agreed way of doing it we have half a dozen different clients different bits of software you can use you're not tied to VIN if your developer decides to go off to Mars or retire to the mountains and get another developer because this is all standard stuff people not in the same way that if your developer decides to go to mountains there are other people who know salinity we controls EA like Oasis has liaison things and a little we're just a liaison we participate in DC 307 which is my sirs group working on international standards for blockchain very much about ISO except we don't want to go there it it's a place where people spend a long time working on things like the glossary what is a blockchain is it different from distributive in technology is any subset superset overlapping said after 18 months of discussion or something we as a liaison participate in this discussion but then it goes to a vote by country representatives so it's literally how many people watch your vision but let's talk about 12 points and that is how the decisions are formally made and so one of the reasons for the discussion is to try and get a point where we all agree and it's not going to be a contentious vote because we not in paralyzed those situations what happens is some country with a pile of money goes to a bunch trees with money at all and says you will pay huge event you and you and you to be members of this group will pay for your representative together meeting so if you vote with us on some crazy student ID that that's when I say that is wrong that doesn't normally happen thankfully a little very slow process it's very very good moment yeah not so much so the governance is American solution you pay to play we provide a staff who assists of about five or six people how often basically do marketing and talking for members my job is make sure the standard process actually works that's like that I spent twenty years doing this stuff have an idea about how these processes can be is an agreement that members sign and so we can hold them to seventh day by specifically of course yeah if you remember then everything you do goes with a grant of patent license anything that you put on the promise that anybody can license their for free you can't come back and said are we change our mind we decided we want to charge you for a patent not do like you signed it away leave you leave already a copyright story is frankly bit down if you take aspects you can read up publicly into this dress specs but we've taken the license is one of the base have a long to iscandar let's copy this ugly thing with it why is that dumb because if you're on a development team trying to implement it well you'll probably do is take the space jumper into pieces hostas pieces around your dance with some common trainer technically that's a derivative work technically that is something you have to ask us for permission to do absolutely yes unless you're going to publish like da version like one a yes we did shot just usable and that's the discussion we have within the board there's important directors who have performed good well now work style like most people stuff is gonna give out requests where where we can we were quite lazy consensus which is so I'll puts up an idea looks like it makes sense we agree that's great but we do have a formal decision-making process and we have a weekly meeting teleconference the agenda for that meeting is published days in advance so ever I can see it and you can always say that kind of the meeting that don't do this and that is enough to stop a decision from being made the first time if you just keep saying don't do this without justifying it we will put it up for a discussion at the meeting and eventually if you've got nothing except we're deciding to do this we discuss it and agree so some stuff actually gets discussed at teleconferences most of the work is gonna be this the encounter agreement that it just works the the review process is essentially continuous we published our specs on a 6 month schedule like at DEFCON we will publish be release and the theme of this new release is whatever may be that we finished but it's how we get to DEFCON so through years just like a open source project literally whatever got through the yeah this is good enough to put in goes down in the nascent ship and and one thing is DEA is paid at what it's like to join our be it's basically organizations the starting price is three grand a year if you're a library or government or a research organization or a small company the top price is something like 25 all right want to do that and right now and you have Reaper is restricted to members can actually see what's in there we have heard the feedback that we're not sure what's going on and we don't like being that underscore we would like more visibility and so we are going back to take that feedback and say well how do we provide more visibility the concern that people have is right now we know who is bringing content in we know who is influencing the direction because their members they paid their money we know who can really get that frequently they sign the agreement if we open up they get a Reaper can we still keep that control to make sure that people are driving IPR stuff that's bad that's an open discussion inside EA why there's no feeling is I suspect we can go seeing other people do it but right now that's the situation and yeah involved you can you can follow this is a compliant spec and we have the trust of computers both chained framework we change clients path update this and we will have some more space coming out soon at NTP monster-dog you can actually find release documents but these are edits a specialist assistant live off github whatever we have changed that week they continue you become a member [Music] the VIP system is which are based on the VIP which itself is based on the IP system which is basically lengthy changes because VIPs were originally designed to apply for every language they're all the slightly different nature to what we try to standardize in here in community and this kind of a dichotomy inside VIPs as well because there are two main types of things people try to standardize what is more or less contracted devices and how that application last evidence and the other is changes so there's a lot of of the Lakeman in how these processes operate but the end result of one is a standard that basically anybody could volunteer to write the contract adhere to the identity enter or it's a standard for an RPC interface to another world of devices like that and the other is something that provides a team so they start off similarly they have a similar discussion processes and so on but while one basically just requires that only technically sound and that people come to general agreement what you obtain the other is a much more sort of all persons movement of gathering consensus for a hot war so we have those two signal paths and there make some changes as results to how vips local theater VIPs or counties and we'll try to adapt some of the items and building consensus and building usable standards so yeah this is a job as we see it is mostly provided almost exclusively to providing the toriel services so we have you been coming human wastes we make sure that the little doesn't break you make sure that it has a reputation for the makes may succeed so that's something reading it can understand what you're trying to write and we try to see the standard for when you drop very low again kind of following the IE to give us approached his way anyway needs some draft and then we we try and help the field you know standing through we're not trying to be the averages of what makes a good standard me ever trying to make their that could see this as a community driven process so we try and avoid doing technical decision making part the same process as mr. since its dramatic some things so in fact it's the government's against it try to be trying to look like anyone people to spank anyone to break draftee with faculty draft and company although our some of these other processes here for like the way this is appointed how is the young person's itself behind yeah so at the moment most of you do like yeah so this kind of functions about how do you make changes to be a key one because what you do is to EOP one that answer as near as na and you say things believes it's full request and maybe wait six months for people like you over there's the right to like an assassin so forth so that's something we need to establish Peter the main issue is anyhow the chance to ap1 view this is a channeling comfortable lisa sizing their judgment both changes to a neutrally ids or questions about them so long at least comfortable about to the amantha changes the entire process understandably and because we have because what Mary this is about time there they were rocking like other things they might be out responsibility not to get into the scenes of some idea distance to end anita strangest and so this is defending area area which the precious is currently weakest actually where the consensus it's rough consensus I'll talk more about that magnitude every to be seen because their what they mean by consensus is yes and your computer village of describing liable to say so IPR and atlases please don't hurt me all all the yuppies have to be released you know oh I see zero that we don't currently have a peasant assignment process and partly issue recently and there's nobody I peas incorporated with no organization that can sign a contract with you know giving up that rights so that child do my letter make knowledge here at least is that without a body having an encouragement that's enforceable there's no party elegance that consignment and then continue the cause of you tried a certain test so I'm going to be out insight into their nature whoops all everything's I'm not going to have vital wastes and so on and right when to writing a draft juices will assign you a number which is generally the number of the next poll request it gets moved it as a draft after that we have a lot of his job is basically to allow you to make changes to a draft or to allow you to accept changes other people who want to make you a draft discussion takes place on a basically a forum nominated by the author of the draft and if you want to progress your draft class that are after they isn't into a statement we have us lightish wait process by which the draft author can nominate it because a final call they have to provide a certain amount of time I think that during that time people can provide technical feedback and be in the last all the authors and speak to provide a summary of all teachings were raised and how they address them and then we'll be users look at the best summary and decide whether they think this changes if you want to dissipate next slide please please open the PIR if you draft I've been at the air if you want to a meeting the process and then we can argue about and how we see our approaches of infant processes and likewise if you go to the comedy there's a talk to us being way too small volunteer help be aware but it is you get very little eggle eight or a ten and a lot of stretch work comical second please come join us [Music] documentation and other other leg yeah so so partly because we believe in its making the person's identity centralized and happy because we have not volunteer their hours and we try to make this assumption community jokes that the community's job as possible and that's final thanks is supposed to sort of help resolve but really the governor's that doesn't get accepted as final and Mason is than they described it is necessary station as they you know it's a standard where somebody could read us they're moving something compatible but without having to import discussions with the author it's awesome and ultimately it's the it was his job to make sure it doesn't get through and missile eats that but we try and make that as lightweight as possible buying by exploiting this is is there any of my kids and I write the IP for some crazy idea ahead that my university will affect both obedient to the end of this process justice not really no I've said before that you know we try not to decide we like your standards a good idea reading whether it is irrelevant we might have been including to Bolivia so if you want to it's so so you know there's no officially required place that you have to like heaven you have to have a discussions URL there has to be possible pretty matters there we don't have a requirement but it must be able to place the three petitions very popular place to do that but we're together again of people who we have to be inside 20 time long term I we really love to see more like magicians greatness which only covers working groups I would love to see them take up the reigns for sure they know standards I again sort of borrowing them or from a native if you want to write a statement that does because it would be nice if the others say that's great please go talk to the magician's wouldn't be written for you and if you want to do it on your own you should have good reason why you're at that time today that's about going to order to be experienced some other areas in which there are some other areas in which even through VIP process panic what I think I think the most important thing is that these approaches around modifications to the process because if we don't have that box down there you know we have a quest but I would like to see more lights to make it more systematic so please it's based on how much time and a teacher they do this I had available to spend on and on ways to make it procedural terms of making sure the people of the sample make statements and analysis I do you think if there is a shoe can you hear that there I'm saying if there were more incentivization layers and the yaki process for editors or people kind of adding to the the whole program you think it'd be more engaging and more efficient if it's it's difficult to say I think was the psychological page where if I ask you to pass me a glass of water you do if I add also you five speeds to perhaps maybe that's what you're insulting to just say no and I think so I think you need to be very careful about you know but if you a gold star every time you agree to an important placed or something because I don't think that's why most EIP and there's a small tear but also we do it as well you know I think with rather than like two rates incentivisation that basic thing might be if someone might be able to just say we have a budget to hire a full-time out yourself you know that is their job now you know and if they don't enjoy it it will sorry two jobs sometimes you don't check sure your job you know that might be a better way to make sure things moved ancestor think it's also the case that if you if you provide incentive to people that you said we're gonna pay you for putting stuff into a spec and say hey I give free money for making work for other people who does this benefit the answers of the people you make work for my be ecosystem where that work certainly becomes a big distraction I'd be the person who's actually taken by the money to do stuff that's essentially useless a bit before you end up with a reverse effect where I'm in suits by suggesting safety reform equates now they know how bad I was like a day by basketball right that's right is let's say the working group fills the stack and does the development side of it last night hey I'm not against incentive schemes except that I don't actually know of one that is well have to work basically so only last question I have on this and we should move on so we can get other survey get some when there are disagreements did you talk about a time when there are maybe controversial subjects and how those how those have been getting resolved so some degree they simply to reform the ie purses so they're really the big ones that come to mind there are things like risky VIPs I think it was nine nine eight you know which proposed to rescue some parents and so on at the time we beliefs flavor about the Roma beauticians and so on so the scenes that like if any of this or approved this is a draft they look giving the same political justice a that this is how we should govern you know this location doing the next time for itself so when things are being on traditions because there's a perception of the IP it is to exercising controller validating operates or over water should be accepted and our response has been to try and separate those concerns to say that we're trying to write standards we're not trying to tell you that you shouldn't prevent standards or forced people to practice standards and so that's people main source of controversy assembly this cases where people have strong disagreements over busy medical teams or something so you try to finalize this and they say oh they did what it is this is a bad standard and ultimately I think you there's no easy solution to that you just have to build a process where generally technical concerns addressed in a typical manner rather than the personal manner and if somebody is sediment and standing the ground then you have to have people who can you can I could write all the div today but since ads on block number X my accounts it's ten thousand beneath them and I believe there's that should be standardized aboard but I also believe that all things should immediately summarily rejected you know can you just fantastic question dinner let fall these bodies do you do you guys publish all your processes in a way that anyone can actually read them and fight their way through survey everyone is with us yeah thanks basically to find the EAS process we have a full process we don't use much formally there's a procedure for things really get bad we can have a fight on stuff that's damned hard to find if you have access to you know repos if you remember and we have documents about a basic working style and we have get the tenders out he can obtain to stuff president everybody else's stuff is to public you could read that as press discus in the case VIPs what tell me privately I need how standardized exam as I say it doesn't describe how is itself should be notified and the reason is have received wisdom that just doesn't make it into the eiv you know the convention of this is how you do those things it's very stuffy in it is no right there yeah that's that's actually why I was asked to because I was trying I was actually filing a change for Epione some time ago they found it kind of hard to actually from ERP one get to an oval process view on what am I expected to deliver and what has what stages do I have to wait for others to actually provide comments on it or do I even have to go pop on a codex call and show it there as well and even though it's just a change to you people and why is it in the cloud and calm because of its kind of very confusing I ended up trading my own process diagram for it so so I can just follow it and go through because you should put that actually I actually sent this over to you people PDF already wrestle I can also edit this so this person started six months ago maybe and all of these record everyone and said okay to image and still has any major event whether the change about adding security so that generally good change is another big it's like something that it just used today yeah very simple change in you yeah and also that those charts that is like the word was present that idea and was interesting idea Michelle they don't want to talk about so I would give you one thing a very simple change that requires spike there are 1000 users if you want a thousand we have these to change a name special I do want to vary in the details but you if we go back for example for where he comes from protocol bit for Bitcoin that stuff um from heaven that has security considerations did clintus got rid of it for some reason yeah because it it didn't make it into ELP because it was amended so that's actually just fixing what would what we lost on the web now I swear he said that you runs into that hole where the modifications really one itself are described and I as an individual you deserve also don't feel comfortable urging something at least I know the other users rotator that may feel the same and we we need to be like we need to actually which I I think I got a session stuff in in some of the company of jeans been for security considerations and privacy considerations and they've since been removed so yeah this is a it's a bigger discussion security considerations are always addressed it's just not proactive it happens at the end of the lifecycle of the IP or whatever it is that's why majority of beginning you can drag all this information along basic things that I even like us all it does we could jump in there without reviewing your earpiece or whatever is in there but like the main people that I want to believe four-year please those of us in many stages unclear for me like in what state is might be able you know it used to be in liberal mode for some months because I was actually waiting for someone else to do which was kind of unexpected for me because like a final request I had discussions on the magician's forum there was only like positive feedback for that it was only like formal changing something that is really however we want to have it in there and I just didn't know like how to push forward at some point what is the forcing function to to make it keep going okay so w3c that's the World Wide Web Consortium it's the group that defined HTML and related specifications okay so you all know what that is so governance they're basically two I'm there there are more than two kinds of groups but the two main ones that most people care about our community groups and and working groups so community groups are completely open completely free to participate in they also require no resources or support from w3c which makes it easy to provide them that way the working groups are membership based and I put corporate detection organization my child says so you know it could be 50 governments or schools and libraries whatever but when is it's a paid membership allows members of your companies to work in working groups for anything that is a standards track specification the APR is essentially a custom grant there's a royalty-free license required for anything you contribute in a community group so if you contribute to us so actually to contribute in a community group you have to sign an agreement this Hetal that any contributions you maybe will you will grant royalty Frater once you get to a working group it's actually a royalty-free license for anything in any of the specs produced by that working room unless you disclose so they've been working group you have an opportunity to disclose that you have a patent and request an exclusion from the policy and the reason for that is there let's say well that's fine but the group needs to know so now they can make a decision whether they want to change the spec or not okay so there's no surprise dirties and there are served mandated points at which you get an opportunity to do this exclusion and or disclosure working style like the others in list if a number of groups have regular teleconferences but this is what I wanted to talk about consensus w3c has one of the longest census requirements of any standards organization I've ever seen ITF started with the days rough consensus okay I'd like to say rough consensus and running code and you know the theorem groups in general have adopted that rough consensus does mean though that you might you know you or five of you might just be out of luck right and in fact I believe you see that I need you feel so strongly about that that that the way they get they determine whether there's consensus in a physical meeting is through a hump and you might think that sounds really strange okay so they say hum if you want this on if you want this and the reason they did that is so that if you and your boss are sitting next to each other your boss cannot tell what you voted for okay so that they really want people to be able to give an independent opinion but to be able to get a general sense of the room okay and they had to do that right so they go oh yeah it's pretty clear there's like three people back there trying to come really loudly okay but the rest of the room just doesn't want to do that now majority would install [Music] No is not about now NNW okay so right like I so it's a vote and India's he said you're trying very hard not to go there we we have a very procedure I'm very happy that in Oman time we have never had a post it so it babe they give to consensus so w3c goes with them and just an extremely strong notion of consensus and it's great deal on rough consensus basically remember when it started I think you know sort of the look that I to tell me the idea yeah but there they said you know if there are people disagree you need to talk and so that's what that came from and it's just so it can take longer to get some things out and it doesn't mean that things don't go forward without a few people disagreeing that where you really don't really have to work to make sure that you accommodating disagreements nobody that sounds like my understanding it seems it's doesn't mean you just ride my friend reveals that if you want to go to pass those objections you have to assist them in the man doesn't either take them into account or say that I've started necessarily I've been in lots of iron that means and usually they will ask those people but their needs are but in many cases by the time you get to that point you already know what their opinions are it's just that they disagree with the rest and if they're really there's just like a couple I like I hope I don't do this and and it's been open less extensively then they go ahead in principle that very similar in practice w3c enforces a much deeper little welcome you really have to explain why good run this thing now if there are two different camps clearly idea real real deadlock and so it gets resolved okay but as far as a rough consensus they will they will go over the the small bit rough that's what rough consensus means yeah so Rudy process yeah working drafts which don't imply consensus and their review process and implementation and implementation as early as you can but it's not want to talk about the review process and know you see there are basically three things that that you see is really known for one is royalty-free specs okay so that the specs themselves are free and open to read it's not like I said where you have to pay to get them and then - it will let them everyone who worked on it at least will give a royalty-free license to it to implement it these funkin census is another one and then the third one is their review process is a formal review process where it's this you know your works that may require that other groups at w3c look at it and actually outside of your community you're required to demonstrate than anyone else you might peripherally be connected as when you did and then they specifically now the accessibility internationalization security and privacy groups and every three seed who must sign off now ITF does the same thing actually IETF iesg does that effectively the other groups and IETF have to agree following and this is one of the things that I think could be looked at whether it's I don't know whether Keith once that needs it but for me to I I think I eventually they're going to need something more like this where there's a clearer you know to find time when security people get in there people who are agreed to be yeah we're gonna be security review yeah so WC has a lot of different activities and I just listed you know between ten and twenty four of these community groups many of them are not even active they all got started rapidly a few years ago and you know things were hot but they could all be you know kicked up anytime anyone wants to there are a couple of this group that I've mentioned that I talked about these centralized identifiers I'm not gonna say anything really about what it is more than others to say you don't like email addresses Facebook accounts and your eyes as identifiers than compartir thanks okay so work is done public mailing lists if again that readers and this is vote for community groups and and working groups now so you can follow it very easily to contribute so as I mentioned there is an IPR commitment at at some level so it's a community group it's a personal commitment if it's a working group it's your company's commitment for all specs that come out of that group now to submit pull requests in requires membership and again that's because of really serious concerns about about now there there are other venues if if that becomes a problem but but in general is direct contributions that require partnership absolutely said because the 33 skills has a concept of any fighter they explain it yeah so so that there are cases where if you are an outstanding individual and yeah you've worked for a two-bit company that it doesn't have the money to join own or you work for that company that has nothing to do with the web and won't join there is mechanisms saying we want this person in the group so bad we will give them the right to do it but it's very much cold as a privilege or excellent if you wanna leave yeah it's just like every relative you just do more you volunteer you say I want to do this now if you're going to do that working group or community member or advisor okay okay so I'm gonna talk about you two also I do short straw here so please don't shoot the messenger like sure I got something wrong because I don't know that you want even agrees officially what the process is I thought we were a couple people and they're like yeah that's kind of what it is kind of sort of maybe so these are some statements along those lines together this is very informal pretty too okay it's basic I did reporting by a barrier foundation and and developers okay and of course influenced by you know individuals who have been instrumental in aspirins of material interestingly you know if you look at who has final say I try to talk about this 4:30 to see in the end right they don't vote if there's a disagreement and you get all the way sorted to the end if I'm director will decide where the director is Tim berners-lee Tim berners-lee right now is on sabbatical these emails about it for a long time there's an experienced person representing him who acts as the director now that may change over time okay so he - it's actually the editors that have final say right now for Egypt and that's only because they're the ones who put it in I'm not saying the arbitrary I'm not saying they're inappropriate but today they are the ones who make that decision there's no other group it's you know that can save the editors you must undo this sorry did you expand on for the illnesses on every one should we not talk about the inhibitors not you to document so this beacon chain and so on right so Danny Ryan I uh you may need to trust our each other whatever I say the editors not be each two specs you thank you question right so and I say as editors I posted thinking if editors any Ryan is kind of like one of the primary ones he's not the only one but the BEF has has taken on itself the role of coordinating and making sure that progress continues to happen so that's why I ER so all of the documentation everything you could expect these licenses cc0 of whatever Universal there is no IP are Kevin no bad policy rigging so you give up there on by weekly teleconferences but that's for discussion but again all the work really happens in you for the review process that is normal you know the community just reviews and talks I am not aware of any any kind of formal review process there there is not any formal stage at which it will get a security review or privacy review or whatever although there are when that tends to be requested more than other times you know from my perspective this is dissident area where eventually that they really should look at actually maybe and these saying hey now is when we want to see that and the advantage of having that not just get lumped in with all of you is that it lets the people developing it about the upfront get to have some time working on it before you know it's it like coalesce their thoughts before it gets the detailed security review okay so the other thing is that just like each one the work is very community focused so there's this kind of belief you didn't you didn't talk about this particularly but it's more about implementation aspects there's there's always this kind of implicit what you can always pork it you can always board because you don't like it just for me no big deal okay the truth is that a very large scale confection would be considered filter okay so no one wants any kind of before if so this is where the rough consensus thing happens right so you get a few people who disagree and they're really disagree strongly they're just going to go and they're going to make their own coffee and they're going to try to convince the world that every walk away from those losers you know over in the room over there and follow them but if there's two bigger group than that's considered about me what did I miss because for me to talk about you two is kind of embarrassing for me the reason you go the job is like attention okay yeah it's been off and on for a while okay oh yeah all of you know this you're a duck on okay phase zero phase 1 phase 2 phase zero implementation is actually happening and there has been a an interrupt event which is really really really cool and it helped them a lot as it does every group that does it when you get stable enough apparently the phase 1 spec work is is stabilizing and phase 2 like I mean even coming up with a list of what - - is doesn't work and it's running out of all this great sessions on this yesterday and the day before everything you ever want to know how okay oh oh there's getting involved but yeah so you know there any number of places you could go look I I am a little biased I get some information from Ben Edgington and census because Pegasus because we won't work there but he actually has a really good blog that he maintains the updates regularly about the status of these two and it really is a good place to if you just want to follow without having to go read all the all they get up issues and that's a really good way to do it anyone can submit issues if you want to participate and all of us I believe this so part admit signing for this so for most developers that's not issue but one of the things that I have learned from many standards efforts is that there are often people who want to contribute who are not necessarily technical people they actually care about you know societal impacts and things like that and they may not know how to use get up at all much less figuring out how to how to get a signature on everything so that is something to think about and you know it started bleeding boy you need to be ready to live and breathe it because it's it's all it's all in issues and calls and people's heads and you know and random documents spread all over the internet so it's just not easy almost like a race right leading is easy you just gotta run faster than everyone else yeah very much so I ask then you know what to do when you gave me a list like this I said okay great so make 30 pullet points places you can follow you can contact Kenny Ryan a couple ways there and there's a live stream of the of them privately calls so I should just have to go eat hub has a really great overview of these two it talks about all the clients that are working on implementations and having to enter off-site and it's a great place to learn everybody to and get started so unlike all the current standards that are they've all talked about we have the privilege maker to start from scratch and learn from all of the mistakes that have happened in the past and take all the great things of work for you guys so right now we're doing a lot of research into how to open up the way to improve maker to the entire anyone who has access to you that I suppose and similar to the queue process it inherits from process to create a standard approach to proposing new improvements and respects and just overall changes yeah so there's a lot of things that we need to consider when implementing a standard for the maker protocol and overall ecosystem some things that actually as a breakup session I want to open it up to people's opinion listen so if anyone has anything that they think that worked happy really so standardizing the improved proposals there's templates that allow people to kind of propose it easily they have to follow criteria and put it up there and it gets her food review by an editor it makes a look if it checks all the criteria moved throughout the process of lifecycle and get on its way to being implemented governance overall I mean from our perspective we how the kickstart the program from the maker foundation and it would be governed by the community and the uncharitable ders so we've been really considering what is the best way to get consensus should we continue to use our airboats should we have kind of casual polls on discourse forums or importance in general or should we just hear a lot of waste on community voice turns the workflow everything would be focused around github we would have the entire process on there or people to spend the PRS be using the templates that we provide discussions would happen on this course where the idea is Amana get rejected at conception because it's been repeated or there it just is an accepted revival rocket chat to reach out to everyone involved and without the loading vehicles potentially to making sense us to decide on these things there you the review process would be a little more formal than the EIP where the others do review the specific criteria and make sure all the check marks are made in order to move it through the next stages and the queue would be heavily involved as well like I mentioned the idea of having polls and votes is it is interesting that you might want to consider that key stakeholders that I finally probably be likely involved are the editors people who check all their criteria to make sure this thing can go through the authors are typically technically to have an idea to improve the protocol in itself coordinators are the kind of managers who make everything happen they coordinate with the the editors the authors and other stakeholders involved such as implementers and they would also speak with others to make sure that the technical implementation is feasible and technically sound and no potential failure bonus so the types of changes are really interesting so the processes would be very different for a protocol chain with the smart contract player you have to go through very much deeper process a process to be a change to the program in general like we mentioned earlier the editing process for changing the epi one is intended to fine so it's less likely to get pushed through if you can find that at beginning it's a lot easier to actually improve it really there's just general requests for comments on concerns with security or failure differently in terms of our activities were very much in a research phase and trying to finalize their program in itself once it's finalized it all be accessible for github and a dedicated website somewhere to be a few website that tracks the history of all the entities immersion the categories that fall into the faces of the launch would likely be we would release the program all the documentation is there for read everyone can go through it and understand how it works the life cycle of them the people involve stakeholders and just overall the upgrade types the others would be more formally defined likely as I mentioned the mega foundation would be kick-starting this program so we probably have some internally to manage the editor process at first it would evolve over time where community members would be vetted in respect to key members based on their contributions in the past and they proceeded that way and then just forums to one location to discuss everything I suppose over social media Twitter everything happens on Twitter but you can really archive that and go back to those conversations where people rip on these security issues and forget where it is so having it all in one place is very important that's the purpose of the this discuss all these things and I think that's good and then we have our first use case where we to kind of implement it in dogs that are on process and make it simple for the rest of people in the community to do that as well so if you want to have a conversation with us about this you can reach out to us on our reddit make your chat probably the best source to do that and the telegram as well so I'm gonna pass it off to Joey - so one of the challenges that we run into in this work is competing the specifications developed at competing with our organization and famously is the the Shelf specification or it had what WG and III see developing different versions technology for a long time and it's only recently starting to that situation is really resolved in terms of those organizations working together again so was intended Wilson to talk about between different organizations here perhaps more pertinent to this group would be if there are conflicts between same specifications polymeric Richard that a he a because because we have to be on the inside to see what we're doing is we take responsibility for figuring has arisen you know a conflict and as a general principle the idea is you know on top of what a theory makes to a first approximation if if these things come in conflict it's our job to fix it basically no we are no longer creating conflict and any place where we do think we're going to seriously public ethereal liquid aetherium stuff policies we will go and write in the IPS we will do that work in the standard ERP process so far that hasn't actually come up maybe we just haven't had a place that's me well we're not mature enough and that stuff is not good enough to be like uranium change the public where theorem works we we may in the next six months or a year yeah this there are science that we will consider as we've talked about if we do this thing and how to do is we need to cut right the IP until the universe how we're doing we serve a registry for premium collapse of thing if we ain't pretty well we should be really clear to the rest of the universe what they're precompile is aware it is and if I don't know about how that risk web pages is this is a registry where we will put these things if we ever make them eat it but again it might happen but we essentially I think the conflict thing is our equation like that tend to about to be informal standards to which one it by that I mean like standards developed by national bodies or by the w3c by the EPA by these censorship groups they often will form these leaves and partnerships as well with organizations that they learn are doing similar or related work and what my understanding is that recently period foundation also developed a believes and ship air to start this process we service we set up a group which is the main networking group and very unfortunately they're sort of meet up at DEFCON to figure out what they're gonna do and how they gonna do it was exactly same time secession I have no idea what they eat a lot as possible to make it happen and so Mike we did Jerry tell us what they did yeah listen there was a session two days ago where we were talking to club there was an introductory session and the basic idea is just to have a group that's actually if she is the working group he's a member of EA so dear staff Conoco it was happening and that type they have a free membership basically they exhaust make sure that we're actually doing how they organizations deal with conflict you mentioned that often times when we do disagree and then there can be personal or personal matters brought to the fore which are not relevant there's care about WTC has one there's a Dakota compact passionate and have a positive working environment group that formed specifically to come up with so it's important it's amazing that you have to teach people what they should have learned into the party do you remember that book and it's I'm sorry you didn't have to learn how to get along with people in you know in kindergarten have people forget it we totally have a form kind of connected beyond the membership agreement which as will be reasonable to Beth Israel and a bunch of what I actually do is whenever there are things reading to to rise up a bit Aaron and actually talk to people so look at you you get a situation where you and those other guys you disagree with them think are stupid also disagree with you and they think you're stupid stop talking to each other nicely then this discussion is just going to explode and nothing will happen a little make no progress if one of you walks out of the room we will lose some fairly important perspectives so and taking although we do want to get to some kind of everyone and it might be there yes sometimes you compromise is quite often a bit and the solution is to say now we're not going to have sort of your half one consensus algorithm and half the other consensus earlier than what I'm watching we one side will agree to lose completely and we will have one consensus algorithm that's just easier information for everybody but but you still want less perspectives to do what the email that one and so making sure that we're doing stuff in a reasonable and friendly way at us if you played out you end up behind a device to paint me we've never met the ones who decide things and that doesn't work out well in the past I worked on projects that accident pretty much as somebody said it would be nice to people if you're any of the falling racists like any comments like all these different things you should be warned you should be so so one of the tricky things is they mrs. self-organizing set up who is going to take responsibility for calling out a bad behavior and what happens is you call that x1 calls that bad behavior personally I think badly that around and say what what do you tell me that I'm doing wrong you're just being in high school and there are different ways of establishing some kind of authority that you see or any and we could basically say we establish some kind of authority because we have written rules in a naked since their communities color decided that they will do this inside they will back up one side or the other and what they decided methods to the influences out this community is going to function in future the personalities projects every project is required that's a non-starter the project can define what those behavior expectations are they want to use an English process like the contributor president there won't do that if they want to use something different that's also that's also fine but we do require but the other side of it is you want to be careful in how much you ask the community to do this attention is a limited resource they expected me to spend all of their time working on making your thing work and they're not gonna have any time left to make their own thing work and actually making their own thing work is probably why they're really there so so there is this really hard balance how do you make things easy people to to do the right things to participate and to put any do governance we rather someone else do it so we were talking about disagreements and governance really helped solve the technical disagreement piece so we're gonna resolve different opinions on parameter one and parameter two and then the other kinds of disagreements that we see mediated by organizations through standards are also maybe political this can certainly has interested parties for different countries that is always do you think that can really be a consideration and when they have like in China and then obviously disagreements over how as standard should be so I think what we would love to hear is how people in this room feel that standardization processes for aetherium could be you know improved how we can help remove obstacles to you for participating obviously we've identified a couple of things and there's the big obstacle with Yeti one that we've been talking about what are things that concern you what excites you what would make it you know easier for you to do your job frankly its selection certification thinking or and also generally what other questions might you have about how the organizations we've talked about today the process how'd it easier for you to like improve I'm like what do you want oh that's that before like the most important part is actually that is is that there's a process out there like there is publisher somewhere it's easily accessible for me and easily understandable me because also I myself I don't really have a lot of time to read through all these processes scriptures so if you give me a process chart that I could just follow and I just read up like I'm in that state so this is what I was supposed to do this well I'm this import this well I was my activity in this year and I should wait for some moments at this stage it's totally clear and what I have to do in that please step is not in the ERP in that case is not in any repo boat and nobody knows what to do with it so that this happened two times for me that's why I took from a big February when I started writing it until now and still not really proven about the process to actually get it that hard because I lost track of it at least three times because I was actually under the assumption now give you some feedback on it and there wasn't even sure who is going to give feedback but it's kind of just give me one big picture of how it's supposed to be just to be clear that what you were talking about now is that Arizona made that VIP life I usually find it as an eternity then I presented it as the Chordettes meeting and it was decided it just given it to you if you were and then turned around again with just more confusing Indian is this the security consideration yeah I mean I definitely shouldn't be able to be happy one might people who are others to make changes by I mean personally my patients always mean that the process could be hard enough to understand now but there's so much worse appeared to really run an ear to read all the other entities that have mean the idea and trying to figure out one that we just don't all that one's unfortunately some area to help us how many followers they have one document which is here's what you need to do and just that document when you need to know one of the things is you have each week and every week no one nobody for this they still they speak short enough to have a look at it understand what it says and more or less remember and and one of these is if you make changes since taste true if you change things every six months you should at least of these what we changed over the last six months yeah people would read the doc so we need a appear to be anyone that sees that modifies EMP what saying here is how you make the as to the IP one yeah and even we can have no play process so the big question and that is who can accept us a what what was the threshold actually only be considered citizen so I read here people I understood in the way when I want to change any process they have media Peters actually changing process so that's kind of like this is how what we are doing including the change to ear p1 them in the end but with a description of why and all the discussions alone you can even track the changes which makes sense because that's only editing it you might lose why you even introduced that change that you keep and you stick to your actual process that yeah so that's why I started with this one and at some point you know we all kind of decided that it only that only requires a PR to EMP one I put everything in the people requesting yeah and then we had lots of discussions a few changes they still want to change this pending right now to make it more clear what to do but then it was kind of a hard lesson to learn to follow follow the process but it was mainly because it wasn't very clear to me what the actual process is so saying expectation to make clear I like who is holding this thing now with the next just gonna do something precious what is help for you like I traded a process chart for myself just to be able to next time to swallow that one I can either post it to the magician's forum or pin into the earpiece forum somehow and we can together work on that one it's a toil think so we can elaborate the change we have you know so again just verifies this thing prices for writing the IPS versus purses for changing the IP one this is for writing you peace let the whole process also inches America so I feel under the assumption that whenever I want to amend the Miyake I should actually read meat the earpieces so if the IP one says that in my opinion it's a greater certainly if you want to change a draftee I pay you said yeah and the widening office in the draft and accepted if you want to change finally you should write a new IMEI P that claims to obsolete the other one describes or ideally describes the whole thing sorry yeah when it's not final I know the IP one is the sufficient state it's active because it would mean if you have another it also actually might go to the first one and I figure out that there are five things and most recently the generation side would quite easily generate a back leg missing everything that says it obsolete it's this food so far we've been feeling is there at least to push back that something Jones claimed to write me out the enjoyment of these bolts the idea at least Bob says yes that's okay you know because I don't want to get into a situation where something's like my stuff is way better than yours they're more uses obviously you know so that I think was room for argument there off with a anyone should be able to just save the substances and that's just an analyzer you think or whether it should require that the consensus of the original authors and that's because there is no official or arbitrary yeah I mean II and IETF there's a point when you're done apparently and so you can write as many drafts as you want to try to obsolete something else but it's only when it's going to always be the process and its final but then it actually does obsolete that Oh you know the entire agency really does so if we follow the ietf process then the obsoletes thing becomes authoritative every winter that's a final standard the alternative is that we just say that this is this is part of mistake mistake size it's also it obsoletes they're sort of you want to follow the speak you shouldn't follow that's big I think the ideas persists probably being at 1 in this case yeah the probably getting to at some point in the second nature look at a is this big B is this big big newer and shinier what is the this is actually doing one of the important because if you have my five specs that you said well they're all as good as each other we don't want to judge anything I walk in with my new company and 50,000 developers to do some work you know what am I gonna work on yeah people want a random yeah it becomes an unhealthy situation and she slows us down it's people like that's big and this is where I really like to see magician was written because if you had a working group that says they are the working group for what standards or whatever then the business could say generally we won't accept what standard the open e drafts accept from that work you know unless you have a really good reason white everybody could come tantalum and the networking group could take all the job of trying to encourage standards and so on because I think it's a tractable to speak to editors to to understand the entire ecosystem and know when something's check there's more it's irrelevant globally do you have in your local service somewhere like we were processing how to give feedback to the process be a dozen three three speakers 33 cities process includes take this person CC has a process yeah it's a skies eventually he writes this and that's what they do is they discuss changes to the process and it does get update actually images take the AP process or informational there is a informational it's type of VIP transcend base chain wouldn't it be the suggestion to through a process I mean I think ultimately an informational EIP doesn't have any power to change a thing so if you wanted to change it I think maybe it just discussing it rather than saying it's the IP and in attempting to do you can see this it's not a change to the I mean what would be a birthday financing we can also be pretty interesting to that's been an active discussion reason they like me I my argument was for a variety of thing where we don't actually number need a piece State in that way you can assume that if it's big number that's kind of been adopted and will likely eventually make it to a standard and then your draft is just your draft you know it's not the draft that that was made objections so instead I think something like that we had if the drafts inside was a long enough estate you know about to create the payout would it be author it's going to be managed in a week that 90 minutes as stale as don't and then a week later manages that day you can if you want but it helps clear the clutter the tc39 we have separate repositories in the requirement that's that anything that's a draft that is a feature that's just strip being foreclosed from work done has to live and that in that repository with the repulsive - what's doing ever and it's only when it's finalized that it gets to move into the repository of the actual surface of that process I think in the github looking system it make it amazing it's just you've also trade you know you just look to the Arizona Sabrina to be merged the chain means its final but unfortunately that was I was overruled on that maybe it's time to reopen the discussion I think that's that's kind of how a lot of other exactly yes but we have to do it when it gets to final eventually so why no yes make that decision oh let's split earlier and if it leads to problems as people like file an issue that leaves you also train with like a 5 sequence description of their idea and they say please see 1 2 3 4 it's not me but it's just you have initially write some sentences you know this is I see you have to require office you know [Music] anything anyone else wanted to ask about over now you're all here for the next session incentivization basically mentioned before explain anything how to get more engagement so I said I'm generally very skeptical about one of these things about building standards is it's kind of painful boring work and what to do is sign up and say yes I would like more of that pain than other people and I'm not getting enough with my daily life but actually there's a method anyway I know of keeping the rubbish ocean down a bit today that doesn't solve the entire problem but as soon as you set up incentives for people to to do stuff this is like building bureaucracies yeah you don't want to build like a despot free approach or mechanism to my art that's where a really solid and healthy community ecosystem can come into play and so you know you want to unless an organization is willing to say but Brian from Microsoft in a position that allows him to spend 40 percent of his time and of a suspect and and that that happens with with particularly useful or important aspects you know that bigger companies will step up and and pay for the resources to do that but in a case where maybe the features where the technologies are less business critical you don't have as many companies rolling up to it willing to step up and give that investment so the community needs to fill the gap where and I would people should be paid for their labor but open collective and patreon and those things aren't going to really pay anybody salary to get get [ __ ] done if there are other kinds of community events community spaces where people can be celebrated recognized also I think in many cases they need to kind of get to have a little bit of that credit given them and a little bit of that light department like only Thank You Nick for all the time that you've been spending we're gonna kind of like defer a bit to your expertise because you've been owning this process one of the things one of the does make sense is that if you find people are doing good work not only do you get 50 or they should be based on that you said definitely Stefan we'd like what you need rather than pull you put its thing this is a one-time thing a foundation or or the open projects we can do something here tonight so these have seen me if do this the most sane people so what are the things that they can do is like you know maybe provide a thank-you gift I mean I did this for all of my maintainer zuv the Jazz foundation I gave everybody and thank you card and assured and some stickers that was like heartfelt Lee I appreciate the ship that you put up with and then to your point Dan like if you can afford it bringing them paying for their fair to come to a community event we're having a special event just for them at a Def Con for example it's not expensive to say we're going to have a lunch you know to thank you for your time and your colleagues in this space little things so one of our son was one of the things I have seen in here is people watch people do much work I see some other people get rewarded and they don't get what they think is their reward and they so often do [ __ ] and I say that money in other places it's like you alienate people who are doing hard work by rewarding other people and perception of injustice and and the problem is it's really difficult not to do that right because you don't know what people think they should be entitled to so if you start sitting at entitlements and it gets messy they're fast and so yet is pile of things encouraging people to recognize basically the whole point of doing this is we have a really should job which you probably won't get thanked for properly and you should expect it to be painful rather the man sitting anything up well you will get like rewarded that you will get Authority probably if you do and stuff you will in fact and you certainly should but but Wendy will come to that expectation you can really have set them in a way that if they come with this sort of it's almost better the way they you know them in a better place question to you how do you prevent silence across the word improves that you mentioned for exactly what some other groups what's the mechanism to be those separate entities so the moment they would still be very early they they haven't taken out of them some responsibility for their areas the way I would like them to do and so I think they can I mean so so 33c sort of looks of that problem seriously has done for 20 years and the answer is that what you if you bear in mind that this is an important problem that you need to keep addressing then you keep remembering you should have done you do nothin and it has been said they had what they call these horizontal review groups groups looking at accessibility privacy architectural consistencies interesting thing to hope for on the web where there is not security in specialization and those groups get because they look at all of the different bits of work the thing they're looking at quite often in those groups he white people are saying wait a minute like this thing in this thing with the same and it's one of those people whose is a US should be like not doing this two different ways that the same thing he thought about talking to each other but though he also has because it has a formal decision-making point at the end of it one of the things that they were gonna take to this is my well why are we reinventing this wheel that we already made a square one last week what's with this a second one we shouldn't do that and so is an objection like that comes up basically let's go see how they're about it and it might be the answer is here turns out no one like that square wheels we had tried once and but it's it's still good at Hopkins though like press this doesn't get worked up there you go thanks [Applause] you