How Technology is Enabling Institutional ESG? | European Blockchain Convention

foreign [Applause] [Music] doesn't know what ESD means so raise the hand if you do not know the meaning of EST be brave okay a few hands raised yeah ESG sdg is two different acronyms but still a little bit of different meanings so ESG stands for environment social and governance and it's a state of sundars measuring a business impact on society environment and all transparent and accountabilities to discuss this topic I will be discussing with Gabrielle who is uh let's say the refri here he is a general counsel and joined Hive in 2021 as the Director of legal Affairs further to the acquisition of GPU Atlantics data center site in New Brunswick Canada and he has extensive experience in the field of cryptocurrency mining data center operations and management so welcome on stage Gabrielle then we have Max the serial entrepreneur we have you have actually five time funded and Enterprise in sias fintech web screen climate a new all x i exited them you're also an angel investor in more than 100 companies and you have a recent focus on refi with a small vehicle called ethos if I'm correct false launching a larger Venture fund then we have Dr Andres ruis Vargas or meditation expert is supervises research projects at kodos we focus on discrete Choice models to economics and smart contracts he has a proven research track and Industrial experience in financial applications his love for nature and mountaineering give him a genuine interest in climate friendly Technologies and last not but least Dana who is the girl poor here on the panel she's the CEO of flow carbon which she co-funded in 2021 with the goal of scaling natural climate solution to preserve the hair's natural carbon sinks she is involved in several key carbon markets policy working group addressing the incorporation of new technology into the market so to go back to the ESG meeting I think it's quite interesting to know as well that ESG investing consists of investing in companies of funds based on how well they perform on environmental social and corporate governance measures it has grown quite a lot lately in popularity especially due to the climate change and the regulatory scrutiny a report from Price Waterhouse Coopers published in October 2022 states that ESG focused institutional investment will be seen soaring to 84 percent to reach approximately 34 trillion in 2026 making up 21.5 percent of the total Global assets under management so definitely a topic that is uh billing gap and let's Deep dive into the to the topic now so a question for all of you uh who wants to speak first is up to you we'll say that today it's quite normal to associate blockchain as a mean to help with ESG so what are the strengths that make it the technology to use for ESG next sure I'm happy to start I mean I'm not sure it's the technology it's it's one ingredient yes probably one of the more important ones I think to to solve our climate crisis if we just look a few weeks back when we uh had the guardian um article about the quality of carbon credits uh where um yeah I think 90 90 or 95 of those carbon credits were um and um well is there a technology that actually has like as one of the labels uh written on transparency yeah it's kind of a blockchain so that's just one element why a blockchain makes sense and I can go on and on to see the quality of a carbon credit to see actually where it results from where it comes from in detailed level and I think that is just one of the the areas that we focus on but there's others I mean as we know web3 provides means of of better resource allocation better funding um that's what we did for the last few years in D5 and now applying that to our climate crisis um those D5 decentralized Finance tool to this new refi World sounds natural and feels natural and mandatory so we're coming from a little bit of a different angle and to go into the angle that we're coming from I'll just touch on a little bit about what we're doing at Hive so um Hive is a green focused data center Builder and operator uh we're a publicly listed company and uh we listed in 2017 and since Inception in 2017 we've had an ESG Focus so um with that in mind what we are doing is we are mining digital assets uh primarily Bitcoin and we're doing that in cold climates with resources that are sustainable so hydroelectric geothermal power that is either Surplus or stranded and and those you know Surplus and Stranded those are keywords and I'll touch on them a little bit later so um what are we contributing with blockchain technology towards ESG there's there's quite a few things but two of them to start off with is we're providing demand response and grid balancing essentially as a service two municipalities and we are also enabling them to monetize a resource which is right now underutilized so that's where the key of stranded comes in so we are seeking out power that is for example one of our data centers is is in the North of Sweden so that power is not going anywhere it there is no infrastructure to send that to Stockholm to send it to neighboring countries it is stuck up in the north of Sweden the local consumption or the demand the base load is actually quite low during most of the day and then it will peak in the morning and in the afternoon when people get home from work so basically what the grid needs to do and this is happening all over the world where there's we're everywhere everywhere there are grids and everywhere people are dealing with the same problem is how do we respond to Peak demand and even if you have renewable sources usually the response to Peak demand involves non-renewable generation because you need to be quick you need to be able to respond to the man as fast as possible and usually there is a lot of management and and time to be able to take that hydropower take that Renewable Power and Get it up to where the peak is at just to bring it back down so we come in and we take the base load so basically what this local community is using and we raise that so we come in we'll use enough power so that during these periods of peak demand they don't need to kick up non-renewable sources to make more power hour to go around we're plugged in together and it redirects the power from us into the community so that saves them money and on top of just saving the money we're monetizing all that power that would otherwise just be wasted and what that means is the grid is essentially balancing um degeneration to the demand so if you're working and if you're plugged into a dam they're just flowing water around the dam so that is a resource that that has potential to be monetized that isn't being monetized so we come in and we do that we monetize that power and and that has consequences that are very positive like the utility will have a healthy balance sheet and with that healthy balance sheet they reinvest in their infrastructure and ideally in new renewable generation thanks Gabriel we will go back to that at a later stage but uh Dana what is your point of view on on the blockchain as the technology for ESG yeah thank you so I first of all I'm gonna be loud because I've been in this room earlier and I know that uh you need to be allowed for everyone to hear um so I very much agree with where both of my colleagues took the question which is to offer a very specific example so to say that blockchain is the technology to solve ESG is a very I think way too broad thing to say and I know it's just a prompt I think the key is to find very specific use cases where blockchain is solving a real problem uh and is the right solution to that problem and so where flow carbon is active is uh like Max in in the carbon markets so the carbon markets for those of you who don't know I'll take a minute to explain what this Market is um the carbon markets especially the voluntary carbon Market is essentially the only market-based mechanism for funneling private Capital into essential projects that have the effect of removing carbon from the atmosphere but are not financially viable that's a gross oversimplification if I have any carbon markets experts in there room and I know that but that is essentially what the carbon markets are so there are projects like nature-based projects conservation reforestation Wetlands restoration and all kinds of other projects renewable energy projects uh technology-based removals carbon capture direct air capture that remove carbon from the atmosphere or prevent uh emissions that would otherwise happen they're not financially viable and so these projects can be certified through globally recognized carbon credit certifiers or issuers they can be certified and their carbon impact can be Quantified and they receive credits in that exact amount and those credits then need to be sold into a market in order for them to recover the revenue needed to make their project financially viable so this is phenomenally Innovative and essential because these projects are otherwise not financially viable it is not financially viable to do large-scale Forest conservation for example which is why we see most of our forests being destroyed at astounding rates which we all know ecosystem destruction major problem both from a climate standpoint Wildlife Water Systems Food Systems Etc um and so the carbon Market essential mechanism when we at flow carbon looked at this Market when we started the company two years ago we saw that the fundamental infrastructure for this Market um was nascent at best highly inefficient so how do these carbon credits get created through very manual processes of data collection aggregation third-party auditing of the data from the project what is the carbon impact of this project it's a an amalgamation of data that's happening right now on PDFs and emails and all kinds of inefficient processes the carbon credit is then created on the back of this really inefficient non-transparent data um and then the credit trades or is sold through again through non-standardized contracts in an OTC market so blockchain infrastructure is really really great for solving the problems that exist in this kind of Market ecosystem which is illiquidity lack of transparency about the asset which is a digital asset created as a result of data illiquidity lack of price transparency lack of transparency about the Providence of a credit um and then uh lack of access so accessing these things right now is done all through intermediaries who often take like a 30 cut so uh in response to your question I think it's essential to find real use cases in this case in an off-chain Market that is essential from an ESG standpoint a climate standpoint but has been prevented from scaling and achieving its potential and is also riddled with a bunch of transparency uh questions that stem directly from The credibility of the data used to create the unit the carbon credit um so you identify that challenge and then it turns out blockchain is a really really great solution so at flow carbon we're tokenizing the carbon credits themselves um doing a lot of work in the pre-issuance process as well well around the data used to certify them and I can talk a lot more about that thanks um Andres actually that brings me to this question with we'll sing and we're hearing that blockchain can is can be more used as a catalyst more than just the technology you know there are plenty of them this Catalyst how do you see it for the reduction of CO2 emissions and how does did fit with this goal of reducing the emissions I think that blockchain comes with the idea of trust with decentralization there is this implicit thing that if it's on the blockchain we can trust it and compared to even though for example last year there were plenty of stories that would make you think we shouldn't trust it still people are believing in it and I think if we bring it like then asset to specific examples to try to solve a problem we can bring that trust with it but kind of we need to be careful to do it properly because else it's just like FTX or Luna so uh on our concrete example what kodos is trying to do after we I mean first came Bitcoin then came ethereum and then smart contracts and daps and taxes and everything we were thinking how do we get to the next step so there can move to earn which uh some technology where people are being rewarded for moving for doing something that is positive for themselves what we want to do is something called safe turn or proof of sustainability we want to create an economy a token uh that will reward people for doing something sustainable and what we are tackling is actually commuting and people might think okay commuting is just such a small thing but actually five percent of global CO2 emissions are just from the act of commuting by car to work so we would reward people uh by checking how much CO2 they avoid by taking a sustainable mode of transportation as a biker training bus and with that incentivize people to I mean first of all reward the people that are already acting acting sustainable uh and at the same time try to nudge people to change their behavior and also with blockchain comes a lot of uh education somehow a lot of people are interested what is this blockchain so you can leverage that to get people to the idea of environment and as opposed to right now a lot of people have the idea okay blockchain is bad for the environment because we have Bitcoin and that's great when there are projects like what uh Gabriel is doing or what Dana is doing what Max are doing that are all trying to clean up somehow the perceived idea of some people about blockchain you mentioned that trust and the that we hear quite often every day there is a new Scandal or new article and trying to punish a blockchain and Gabrielle um I would like to know your view on the fact that energy consumption of the mining activities I've been highly relayed in the press this coming months years the European commission tried to ban the use of blockchain so I wouldn't like to know whether you suffered from this bad press and whether you think the adoption process is actually blocked by this or is it something that you do not see at the moment so there's there's no shortage of bad press there's there's a lot of bad press and it's based on misunderstanding in my view so before I go into the bad press I'm going to start with some of the good press and the good press comes out when you go to the source when you go to the local media that is close around the data centers that we're operating so we have data centers in Sweden in Iceland and in Canada and once you get into the local paper you'll see the good stories they are there they exist so in Sweden we're the primary sponsor of the Bowdoin hockey team our name is on the arena our name is on the journey the jerseys we are part of the community kids in that Community go to hockey games for free because we want to encourage youth to participate in in activities and social life in Bowdoin we don't want them to go home board after school we want them to be part of the community so there there's phenomenal things that we're doing uh socially in the communities where we're operating and then there's also things that we're doing um that that benefit for example uh CO2 reduction so uh in I'll talk about just quickly two projects X1 project in Quebec that is already already fully built out we're taking the heat from our data center in in lechute Quebec and that is uh basically coming out of our data center going across the street and it is fully heating a 200 000 square foot facility that is the biggest jacuzian swimming pool manufacturer in Canada so we are heeding them with the heat coming out of our data center and and just to be clear when you're when you're a data center that is operating on Renewable Power your your byproducts are are really two things value Bitcoin and heat so you have this heat that you could either not capitalize on or capitalize and find good things to do with it so we're finding these projects so in Quebec we're heating this this swimming pool manufacturer in Sweden uh we're working on a project right now last year we signed an Loi it's in development and we hope that it's going to be built this spring it's a project with a public company that is farming as a service so they're going to be putting up a a greenhouse and in the North of Sweden they're going to be growing tomatoes cucumbers they're even going to have potentially a fish farm for the local community that cuts emissions first of all we're reusing our heat we're recapturing our heat we're putting it to good use but also there is no more you know sorry to mention Spain but they're not going to be shipping cucumbers from Spain it's going to be local it's going to be in that Community grown in that community and sold to that community so these are the types of projects that we're involved in once we get really close to the source we'll about it what's happening with the bad press is is really the bad press happens as you get further and further away from the communities and and it's at higher levels of government and and generally the population especially in Europe that think that consuming power is a bad thing it's not a bad thing when there's a renewable source and when you're providing good to the community and monetizing uh basically a you know water flowing through uh a turbine so so whether or not we're in full operation or or we powered down during demand response there is no CO2 difference so um essentially we um are are seeing a misunderstanding in the general population about two things uh one they might think that because we are using power and a lot of it that we're driving up the price well I mentioned earlier that the power that we're using is stranded so if you're in Stockholm complaining about the price of power it has nothing to do with us that power is not getting to you it it there isn't the infrastructure or the transmission to bring it to the rest of Europe or other parts of the country that might need it so there is no impact on the price for the consumer on the contrary the local uh the local population uh actually avoid price increases because uh the utility is now healthy because we're monetizing power more than it has ever been monetized for them in less you know maybe 10 15 years ago they had a big industry industry which has since moved away and now we're reinvigorating that that that Community okay um max I would like to have your view on why the carbon emission I think three of you are actually dealing with this um why it can be considered as a fertile ground for the use of of this technology well um let's let's start with the fact because they build on what Dana just said there's existing carbon markers out there they're extremely inefficient pretty new build on pretty much email fax machines I guess OTC so um and so it's our it's it's a possibility actually to build those markets um from the creation of the carbon credits to the training trading to the retirement on the right technology and why should we do that well let me start with something else that I mentioned we probably talked about here um a decentralized finance so for the last five years with my company's centrifuge we try to move and still do to move the financial system on chain those decentralized Finance right and we're all here I guess hope big Believers that this will happen it might take a while though why is that well because um the banking system not the technical one but the banking industry or system around us is for decades hundreds of years or thousands of years depending how you how you think when it was invented is around we have like 2 billion bank accounts so it will take some time to move this system on chain I'm still a Believer but unfortunately let's let's work harder and wait a little bit it's slightly different in the carbon markets it's equally up equally inefficient but well pretty new industry and not as many uh companies involved technology involved and people involved so we can actually build the whole thing again from the financing of carbon credits to The monitoring of carbon to um eventually trading and the retirement on the right technology stack and this is clearly a decentralized one on the blockchain and when you meet with actors from the sector how they believers do you have to convince them I think it's a question for Dana in new Max because you have the experience yeah it's a great question so this is an existing off-chain market and at flow carbon we are essentially writing the blueprint for how you do advocacy and engagement to an off-chain Market to move them on chain and what's happening right now in the carbon markets I think is not I think I know is completely unprecedented and is even blowing I think all of us away so what is happening you have three of the four main carbon credit issuing agencies there's four main ones three of them the three largest ones have launched in 2022 second half of 2022 they launched Pub official consultations to evaluate and assess what a framework looks like for bringing on chain the assets that they issue the carbon credits themselves so these are off-chain semi-regulatory bodies in a lot of ways um whom flow carbon engages with very very actively who have understood and realized and recognized the benefit that a blockchain make based Market ecosystem brings to their market and so they have officially launched consultations to evaluate and assess and create these Frameworks and each one is ongoing right now the world economic Forum has created an entire working group that we're very active in as well devoted to uh writing the rules and the blueprints for moving the carbon markets on chain so a lot of the off-chain governing institutions in the carbon markets have worked with low carbon and with others over the last 12 18 months to do this together and collaboratively because this is an off-chain market and we are making the case and explaining um and and and running through the various scenarios with them around what it looks like to have the the unit that's at the core of their Market a carbon credit moved on chain now just for clarity sake what does that mean by the way a useful analogy you can think of is circle so at flow carbon it's not an exact analogy but at flow carbon we would take custody of these carbon credits or we would we would come up with mechanisms for do not come up we have mechanisms for doing that and then a token is minted which represents each individual carbon credit so that's that's what we're talking about it's an off-chain asset it's locked in Registries that people can't access none of you can buy a carbon credit right now if you tried um neither can I flow carbon can and does and um we then mint tokens which are much more accessible and have price transparency associated with them can be grouped together into bundles to create more liquidity and fungibility Etc but I think the stakeholder engagement piece is fundamental and comes first which is engaging with the off chain Market and what about the education part um I think in all the the blockchain we need quite a lot of Education which is a little bit different from when we had the internet everybody was using it without even questioning it here blockchain it seems like everybody wants to be the master of the technology wants to understand every single nitty-gritty details do you think it's needed what do you think we are missing in the education part related to the use of the technology in most of the use cases that you are facing I think going back to what Max was saying uh it's not just that the banks have been theirs for so long is that also blockchain has been here for very little and if you I don't know how to use a defy I think the idea is super cool I would like to do it because I don't want to rely on my current exchange broker because they might be FTX next but I don't know where to start with defy because I haven't just looked into that I'm interested in other things as well uh so I think there is a part where the technology needs to evolve more and the more it evolves the easier it would be for people to adopt it and to play with it and I was wondering if I can ask a question also for what Dana was saying because actually for this whole carbon credit thing I'm very excited about it because I had to fly here for example uh for my work so I can't really avoid it I would like to offset that so I look around and see okay where can I buy carbon credits that I can feel good that when I fly here my op my carbon is offset properly and my question there is how is how are you guys that are actually working on that looking at making that transition that there is legitimization in the carbon offset Market so legitimization comes from the Integrity of the data data carbon credit um and that's fundamental and I think there's a lot of um really Innovative work happening market-wide and in particular uh technology that's being built and being built on blockchain where you aggregate the data from projects and you store it on chain or you make it accessible on chain and it can be vetted and monitored and there's ongoing uh the data that comes in it's often through meters or remote sensors or drones that are looking at tree cover there's all kinds of data that comes into assessing a project and that can all be made available transparently on chain and you can then track the data that was used to create a carbon credit and I think that's fundamental and that's going to transform the market in terms of your specific question and I'm going to keep this short but that's such a good question you flew here and you wanted to offset your emissions which is amazing good for you kudos to you um you can't buy a carbon credit right now what you can do is you can find a website that says you know tell us the flight that you took and we will calculate your emissions and offset it for you you have no idea what's happening at best what's happening is they are tabulating something behind the scenes on a spreadsheet and then they're going into their registry account where these carbon credits are held like you know flow carbon has multiple of them each registry each of the carbon credit issuers has their own registry anybody who wants to custody these things has to have a registry account so we have multiple accounts and we if it's us or whoever it is tabulating going in and retiring a credit and then presenting you a PDF is there opportunity in what I just described for like all kinds of things to not happen happen wrong not happen at all triple count quadruple yeah like that's the most inefficient non-transparent um and uh like process that relies on trust but is not vettable that I can imagine and so what is a token a token is a composable line of code in many ways it's the composability is essential here imagine if you had tokenized carbon credits that you could plug into applications flow carbon has Partnerships with over I think 30 maybe we're at 40 protocols that are building on top of a carbon back token they're plugging it into their protocols for automatic offsetting that's completely um that's completely trustless it happens automatically um on the blockchain so not to mention a carbon back token can be bought by you individually so two two solves for that maximum maybe just one quick one I I think your question was on the education side of the house how we get more people to educate it I think we're winning when nobody realizes that there's a blockchain in the back end Institutional Investor will not download metamask and a store is carbon or not or whatever tokens in in there they just want to do something which they do today simple easy maybe with an API maybe with the front end and the back end will be efficient the back end will be a blockchain the back end will be decentralized but the front end will be pristine nice easy UI I mean that's what we did in in in finance for the last 15 years in fintech we put lipstick on the pick right it was on the old banking system now we're ripping out uh with defy the banking system and put the two things together and I think in the carb Market the same will happen just faster that brings me to a question uh yes I just wanted to add there I completely agree with what Max is saying because what we need is ways where we can go into the blockchain without actually realizing it and that's what part of what kodos is doing the idea is that we have an app there is not really anything you have to do to use it you just go there you put your password and that's it it brings me to one of the questions I had when I looked into your projects and we mentioned especially when you want to offset when you fly and so on I've looked before to these Solutions and I was like am I sure that the money I will pay for my flights are actually going to the carbon credits Registries also and that brings me to the question is the ecosystem around your solution or are they ready do we need to see Mark those are the opportunities to bring uh same for your network with Kudos are we seeing an interest to build an ecosystem around your Solutions telephone so I think for example what Kudos is trying to do we are not there yet with the production ready app uh we hope to launch sometime later this year or beginning of next year uh but we're almost there and the idea would be that you can really just download the app and there is no big hurdle to get into it I we're not there yet it's early uh in in what we call regenerative Finance refi uh which means opportunity as well that's why actually we are raising right now a fund that's dedicated on doing exactly that investing in those early stage projects because yeah there's still stuff to build uh and things to be done so if anybody has an ID to join an ecosystem or to develop Ed around these Solutions uh I think you have the the name of the speakers they would be happy to to discuss that um to go back to the regulation um I think from one of our previous exchange Dana you mentioned that there are more and more um working groups more and more Regulators authorities that are willing to publish on the topic and that brings me to to the question um as to why um there is a keen interest and now to understand um maybe promote the use of the technology are they finally aware that it's not working as it is are they willing to improve things how do you explain this yes I think most people who look at the carbon markets that we're describing the voluntary carbon markets recognize that it's in dramatic need of improvement along a number of points and access points and that blockchain is a very very effective technology for addressing specifically the pain points that this Market has experienced um to revert back to your earlier question about how whether our ecosystems are ready for engagement I'll point to something that flow carbon did with centrifuge which is as follows there's a keen interest in investment Capital moving into these projects so these are projects happening all over the world that have tremendous uh carbon impact and they need early stage project Finance but are very very difficult to invest into because how do you underwrite this how do you do the risk assessment there's no Benchmark pricing for the ultimate credit that is created because that market is totally illiquid and non-transparent so investing is really hard even though there's a tremendous amount of capital that recognizes the SG wave recognizes that climate Finance is essential for meeting all sorts of climate goals so major Economic Opportunity and very essential from an impact standpoint and so what we did was design a centrifuge pool where we took forward contracts from carbon projects so this is forward Finance for credits that haven't yet been issued and put it into a centrifuge pool and basically trans the uh the risk we had senior and and Junior debt and enabled investors to come in and we're expanding that as well and so we're using an on-chain platform a phenomenal one um um exactly right hey centrifuge um to to basically expand this and enable investors to access these projects in a structured Diversified product that makes sense for them with you know with tranches depending on how they want to engage so that's something that can be done right now but also demonstrates that market wide in the off-chain market there's a ton of interest from investors from you said Regulators it's more like these semi-regulatory bodies from a lot of uh think tanks from government the cftc has has been looking at the carbon markets and has focused on blockchain as a potential key solution there so there's a lot of interest in this market and an understanding that the market is improving and that has led to a lot of investor interest and so we created a solution together that they they can access yes interviews and in this um optic do you believe that we need tougher regulation I know that in Luxembourg for example at the cssf level there are um obliging some financial institutions to look into the ESG report on it do you think there is a need for tougher regulation for people to actually take this issue into reality into account or do you think that we should let the flow as it is right now maybe I could touch on this the with I I'm usually against tough regulations especially in blockchain where government is slow to understand what is going on uh and and proceed on things you know on on a gut instinct without industry consultation so generally I'm against any regulation without industry consultation and collaboration especially in a young and and blossoming industry where where where a government will risk um essentially driving out uh the young companies the startups and and all the brains who are who are working on this type of Technology within the country so I think rather than the tough regulations it should be uh focused on on incentives so incentivize the good actors to do good things and and to be more focused on ESG on compliance on on on everything that they're doing good uh reward the good and and I think that is how you're going to improve kind of the Indus while still having a say in how it grows because if you drive everyone out you're out of the ball game okay Final Round Table um let's ask a question how do you see um ESG and blockchain going uh in the next five to ten years what will be the extension will it be only on carbon credit emissions will it be extended to some other topics that are also crucial for for life so maybe Max will well sure I mean first of all let's start again with the carb markets and they're quite important I think they will grow in the next five or seven years 50x in volume so that's a quite uh substantial growth um other areas are like the circular economy where I think a blockchains are decentralization incentive mechanisms uh building into into intokens will play a substantial role um I'm believing as well that biodiversity is a topic that is just being discussed and build up right now and again will be from the ground up build on a on a right infrastructure on a decentralized stack either as contributors to carbon credits enhancing the quality with that or as a standalone offsetting mechanism I don't know yet but there's there's a lot happening there in just those three areas that we look at I mean I I think in even on the digital asset mining side I mean like like I said before uh if you're doing it with Renewable Power the byproduct is is value that you're getting back in Bitcoin and and heat so um if you're doing it sustainably I think that there's going to be much more uh use of of literally mining within uh University campuses uh hockey stadiums uh and and we're being approached with these projects you know new developers and in industrial parks are asking us uh to play a role in reducing their energy bill and I mean there's there there are tons of greenhouses that have integrated this technology because it power is expensive they need to heat and and they want to get a kickback from Bitcoin that lowers their costs and enables them to keep doing what they're doing so I think that there's going to be more integration of of of literally blockchain Asic mining within institutions uh we've been approached and we're in discussion to do this in in a in a hockey arena where there are two Arenas and one of them has a a dome roof and and they're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year heating uh an arena and and the air is just escaping so uh basically the proposal is we come in we do it it's win-win they save 300 Grand a year and and we make money we're using renewable Surplus energy it's it's it's a really interesting proposition so I think more and more of these projects might come up I've been seeing some uh come up with uh using some very small Hydro projects throughout Africa so I think I think in five years on that side we'll see uh projects uh that just makes sense uh on on every side of um uh utilities and consumers Dana what's your projection for the future um I think that there's an a number of environmental Commodities markets carbon credits being a very big and visible one but there's a bunch of other kinds of credits it could be biodiversity credits but there's a lot of other kinds of credits and other environmental Commodities that trade us certificates that are highly inefficient and are experiencing rapid growth because of the onset of of ESG um and because they're they're increasingly needed by corporations corporates need to buy them and I think all of these markets are really interesting to look at for blockchain infrastructure the carbon markets are first but certainly not the only ones and so I would think that in five to ten years you see really really robust markets that are much more transparent and liquid for a lot of these assets on chain see a big screen saying time's up here but uh well first of all I joined codus because I'm excited to see uh people using it and then having a platform where people can really be incentivized for making sustainable decisions I don't think we're gonna be the last one producing something like that so I'm really excited to see how that develops and also what competit competitors we will have in the future well thank you very much for your insights uh good luck for the future and I look forward to see what you come up with in the next five years I will uh encourage everybody to to discuss with you because uh your projects are amazing and important for for the future so thank you very much thank you thank you