ETHTaipei x Vitalik Buterin: Panel - "From Taiwan to Global Ethereum Ecosystem"

um well we we have vitalik and uh I'll just like do a short intro first uh without getting worldwide recognition for co-founding well that's why we're here ethereum and uh he is known as The Connoisseur of sugar-free green tea [Laughter] cool and I know like I uh whenever I go I'm in any other city I always go to the Taiwanese bubble tea shops but like I don't get the bubble tea I get there like plain green tea because it's actually better it's like way better than the Starbucks I I would have to agree with you with that and with us uh joining is also Aya miyaguchi and Ayo milkuchi is the executive director and eclectic dreamer of the ethereum foundation [Applause] [Music] cool and also we have uh uh Chichen Liang CeCe Liang also known as research engineer on the privacy and scaling exploration team and thank you he's awesome he has been with a ethereum like since I would almost say like the beginning right but I'll let you deal with that um and then finally we have uh well young one so uh yeah so our co-founded Perpetual protocol a decentralized Perpetual uh contract protocol [Applause] and myself Martin Lee I'm a header to Upper relations at constab and so uh you know very happy to join uh with all of us here um so yeah maybe let's kick start with kind of like Icebreaker um we had a self-run of intro uh beside intro would like to add some spice to it so I guess for vitalik um I believe the audience would like to know like your uh relationship with Taiwan and you know all the way back you know how how he started and for the rest of us perhaps uh how we have involved into the ethereum um you know Community yeah I'm also I first visited Taiwan back in I think January 6th 2015 uh Alex Leo from my coin invited me to uh come and visit and you know I liked it and like yeah I came back for a few more times for and you know there's a I I saw a lot of smart people in the ethereum community and so we just started having a small a small research team and I guess I've come back to time one minute many times ever since um I don't know what was the other part of the question oh the other part is for us but I remember like you were you were last time you were here was it Crosslink um November 2019 I believe the 18th but I forget for what sounds good yeah and uh IO would you like to take the how we got into ethereum um yeah so originally I got into crypto well around the time I just finished um graduate school and then my focus was microfinance and sustainable business and I learned about Bitcoin and it was either it wasn't there yet um and then I thought this would be good for financial inclusion and then I had an opportunity to join and exchange Kraken um in 2013 um and I was able to learn about many different Technologies and then about many different yes well and and then also some like uh thoughts behind each technology and um but I as much as it was an important um role I mean exchange was an important role for people to be to be connected with crypto back in those days I wanted to kind of go back to my original passion and um and then but through that work I was able to meet I mean learn about ethereum and then meet metallic and other Italian people um yeah so around the time I decided to leave and leave the previous job and then do something more you know more connected to my original passion with the book with blockchain and that's when um yeah I got this um I asked I was asked to help and so that's how I joined the ethernet Foundation oh so um I I mean I joined crypto like in 2018 like at the time and uh I got involved in like Taiwanese Community like because uh we hired you guys and Kimmy they both I found uh taipei's me up so uh kind of get involved and uh um also like um so we we I'm Perpetual poker we have more engineers in Taiwan now so we actually I mean lots of like if developers also we host like D5 like tldr so like one of the events that actually like is called the fire every month so that's um yeah that's uh I mean like just the events I've been to in Taiwan yeah it's easy so for me I was lucky that uh Ming the one A friend of mine shared me the ethereum white paper at the end of 2015 and uh I was amazed and and then I started to did some meet ups uh with uh changing and like and then we also met with metallic and uh eventually without it invited me to uh Cancun I also made Aya there and then like yeah that's how I begin nice um well I can add it myself I'm kind of like late in the game like to 2019 uh I I kept I actually went to Waterloo so I studied at University of Waterloo uh and then it was you know at the time there were like a lot of people already talking about this everyone there and then like delving into it um more like a security guy happened you know happened to be like constant is there and joined happy ever since so yeah it ethereum is like fascinating for me I think the first one was like uh you know I was looking into white paper and was amazed so it started my journey there cool and since we're kind of like on the topic of like community and Taiwan I guess um it's it might be interesting for like and young one like you already touched on some some part like the local community how does it look like and like what kind of events uh you know like you're seeing like here and those kind of things perhaps excuse me yeah so uh for me like my focus was like for technical people so uh so my view might be biased and yeah I see like uh yeah uh definitely we're getting more talents like in in almost every area like we've seen like in uh uh divided yeah we have many divided talents and also uh we have we've seen many people interested in zero knowledge proof Technologies and um we now have like uh like some zika study groups playgrounds events I organized by uh Kimi and Vivian and like like uh and Anthony and like um and uh yeah like like people are very uh enthusiastic and very like hardworking and learn this kind of new technology yeah after that I actually have a couple of students that are like learning with PSC uh you know like in in the ZK I think you guys like hosting two different kind of events one is more application wise and one is actually more Theory and yeah like my students are kind of like yeah it's awesome yeah that's right and uh yeah um yep so uh personally I think the state of like uh ethereum community in Taiwan um is more like we have lots of like really good engineer like like a lot of like people can do as you know both Theory and application so I think that's um you know over the past few years we see that there are actually the numbers just growing a lot I mean forget Engineers um I'm more on device side but personally I think D5 is doesn't really grow that much I think more like infrastructure you know like the technology like I just mentioned I think that's actually have a loss of interest but D5 is okay but still like we have a group of like if I developers also like purchase um I in general I think like people in Taiwan is is more like you know enjoy building then create your own projects like fundraising oh you know try to kind of create on your business I think that's actually um only like a GitHub okay people doing that but not a lot so yeah in general like we have a lot of good engineering resource yeah and so I I like to add a bit on that and then you know hand it over to like iron metallic so uh I guess like kind of more General sense um we have D5 meetups we have ZK meetups here and then um I also know like there's uh several universities that has like formal courses uh that on ethereum Smart contracts and all those kind of stuff and I think that's kind of like signifying like the the uh some energy like Builder energy developer energy in the Taiwanese Community uh last um last well this year actually each type it was still this year um you know we actually had like around 1 000 people it was like very deaf uh focused event five days um you know and so I I think like for for myself there's like a very developer scene here um so perhaps a question to Aya um is like you know like we are here in Taiwan and we know that next year like Defcon is going to be like yeah southeast Asia uh like Asia and in general and uh kind of like your view on like the community here when like what kind of uh characteristics that see here and perhaps like why Southeast Asia yeah um we've been saying oh ethereum started um I mean the kind of in Europe right it was originally the um you know different parts like Switzerland or Berlin or those who are being um areas that's why naturally but also it's it's you know mainly attracted English speaking people first including engineers and researchers uh but um we do care of in the same way we care about that that decentralization of the technology like we believe that it has to come with decentralization or diversity of the community so that's why we feel the importance of inviting more people from Asia and the places like Taiwan I think Taiwan is one of the places that the quality has been very good even without us doing like you know without our support or like it's just naturally like has strong uh good talents here um and then South c h East Asia most of the places ethereum Community has been like newer and it has just started to develop um and then last year we had they've gone in Border Colombia and then how that that led to basically we did road to the current events where we supported we didn't do it we supported both two different events so there are a lot of community events in Southeast Asia in each different country and that created very like a strong impact from this from Southeast to East Asia sorry from uh sorry Latin America to the world not just in the region and that power and energy was um something like beyond our expectation and we want to see the same effect from Asia so that is it's going to be in Southeast Asia but we see this as an opportunity for Asian talents to you know to grow and also like work together so that is the reason why it's going to be oh thank you and kind of like tagging along the same question so you mentioned like they're like newer community and the other like southeast Asia right so perhaps this is a photographic question like you've been into like different countries and seeing different communities uh what are the characteristics and like what do you think like constitutes like a healthy community um I mean Builders good token Chiller is bad you know I know you're good to see people working on working on interesting technology and people who are like really understands the values behind the space and the kinds of things that it's trying to accomplish you know beyond trying to make coin prices go up and I mean I'm sure you know there's always like other circles where tokens are being chilled and like I think it's uh like it just so happens that the circles do kind of self-select a lot right it's like uh you know you have the The Shield of things happen beside other show things and then the nice things happen beside other other nice things and I don't really see each other much but like it's uh you know always good that the stuff exists and so far I haven't seen people talking about how they're building a coin that's going to go up by yeah 20 every month sometimes these things can change like I remember in India I was at an event five years ago and the the very first presentation was about like some carbon coin and it was just talking price would go up by 20 a month but then five years later I can't come to Bangalore and I have a i sit-down event with a bunch of Founders and they yeah ask incredibly detailed stuff about like soul-bound tokens and uh zero knowledge Asic Hardware so uh you know things uh that definitely can't improve but you know I feel like here it's always been on the high quality side which is good cool and I think I think along that um so all of us here has been well kind of like pushing in the ecosystem for for a long time uh and I think I think on the Builder's side as as you mentioned um so we're all believing and pushing this technology to at least like in my mind it's like to improve people's life right it's it's to make either either Financial inclusion or like more privacy you know all these kind of stuff and so I guess we're still in the beginning or still early in the sense like the technology itself is still nascent right and like what do you think are the things that can be improved so this is on technology side and then also like a kind of like a similar question is like on the community side or like the social side uh what are the things that we need to improve as well um yeah perhaps yeah on the social side I want to see a yes stronger culture of like trying to as a community like actually use things right like I think events tickets should be um you know ether nft is on an L2 or one of these uh you know like zoo pass type zero knowledge things um you know actually yeah just pay for things with uh cryptocurrency obviously like try to do some of this zero knowledge reputation stuff like you know like whatever the thing we're working on like we should actually we should try to actively use it as a a community and uh hopefully even try to you know Engage The developers of the stuff themselves in the process so that they can get more rapid feedback hmm but well since vitalik didn't mentioned so um the things like account abstraction is you know is is is important um very important for for asset answer option that's that was the reason why EF also has been supporting and those grants around abstraction but also they don't know it's definitely like at any project that you know we need to care more about privacy for sure so that is something like the educational side of those technology are have been like um around the community has been making those educational activities and then we support those educational efforts too um and other than that like I said we do care about this geographical like diversity and also we don't not only we care about the number of people who you use or build the ethereum we care about you know that that decentralization and how so we have been supporting like some ideas from the community to you know like how to diversify that you know like people who are running nodes or that kind of thing so like we're collecting ideas from the community there has been academic violence um too and then so it's not like us our researchers suggesting all the ideas but um ethereum committee has evolved and developed a lot so we're more like a coordinator side and then collecting ideas from the community so I'm I think those efforts are definitely leading to the muscle about adoption but we don't see ourselves as the one to create the mask that last year and it's more like we're supporting people to create more ideas to reach to the master of adoption also the clarity of the maths like how we create the mass is is very important too for us we'd like to delve a little bit more on that so uh I guess you mentioned a mass adoption and then like account abstraction being one of it privacy being one of it uh and then like are there in geographical diversity right uh are there like generally other like bigger categories that you guys like value and then like I'm also curious on the EF role on supporting yeah we have for example we have this team the experience and then who is running an Experian fellowship program and that's basically trying to find also underserved Community but at the same time some project that can be um an example that others can maybe copy or Fork so that's the you can check up on our blogs about next video and fellowship that just started cohort 3 and we've been expanding originally started only in developing countries but we've been expanding to like different regions but anything that can be kind of like you know create ripple effect for for impact um so that's something we're doing um do you have anything to add I don't think so yeah and I guess like for you guys as well uh kind of going going back to the question of like from you know like the Builder side right right fellow professional protocol and how do you see like the space either technology or government um so speaking of like if it's like personal opinion I think it's actually mature enough I mean at 8am I mean like you can actually push it to a certain level I think like you're actually very usable I mean doing a class it actually was fine are they you see like uh actually us Perpetual poker we don't really have any problem I think FIFA is actually kind of a usable but we just don't have enough application I think one thing is that of course like you know because like maybe a water maybe like you know how we can access the real I mean like more at retail I think that's definitely one of the key distribution but uh I think the other end is also like education like I mean like knowledge like people still go through buyers to trade token I mean skill I mean I mean that's of course it's easy to use they actually got a lot of features but to be honest I think unisoft actually can do like maybe 80 of your things like buyers can do right so it's just like people I mean like it's hard because a lot of people they give you a try I mean like on on the blockchain they got you know rock pool they got Iraq so lots of bad replication you know like if you could do your own research it's hard so it's just like I think it's not like unsolvable it just takes some time for people to really have that knowledge they have that confidence that I can trade on you know these projects those so I would say this should actually is kind of like the biggest huddle for like user right now I do know like metallic mentioned like centralized exchangers you know like people are using them like for financial inclusions but like using Finance as which is great but it's a centralized platform yeah yeah I mean it's the right thing to use when the decentralized stuff costs like seven dollars and 26 Cents a transaction but like our job is to make it not cost that yeah yeah I mean the good news is that I think we've solved the other problem which is uh speed right like I yeah remember how a few years ago sending a transaction and getting included on chain would take like five often five or ten minutes like it's very random right sometimes half a minute sometimes 10 minutes sometimes longer and uh after eap1559 and after the merge like you just regular OAC transactions get included in six seconds and so yeah like on that side the ux problem has been just completely solved which is amazing but of course fees are still high in need and fees need to become less High you know where Roll-Ups are moving forward yeah it's uh you know we got real ckvms yeah I think like with the roll-up Centric roadmap kind of like uh announced uh I think this year we have been seeing a lot of like these like you know coming up uh which I think would be a good segue for uh CC yeah so yeah so you know I know Cece that like he's working on like ZK evm like very long you know like ZK stuff so privacy and then also like the the roll up I would love to learn from you as well yeah so yeah I don't think like um I remember very well I had went to Taiwan like probably like 2019 we met him and I heard one of his talk about like semaphore like all the group of privacy stuff and I feel like oh my God what's this and then all right uh when like uh like uh my uh work at a research kind of uh finish off and then I I tried to help Barry on some privacy project and then like uh like it it's a lot of things to explore and I think a lot of uh applications like privacy application is really really in in need in the current environment like every time I walk to the movie theater and like it displays something like oh we don't send like uh like short message to you or like you occasionally you receive message like um uh the the police says like oh we don't send a message to you if you receive this it's a scam and like I feel like lots of this problems are uh already almost solvable in in with the current like zero knowledge proof technology like like if we uh combine good identity systems and all that kind of stuff and uh we can we can kind of like Mighty get this problem and fix them and just uh yeah and so I mean I I'm currently building the Caribbean but definitely like like really uh like interested in other privacy technology too and I as I just said like we need more like education need more uh support for people to to get into this space than this technology and build uh real real product projects to to help with the solve real world problems yeah awesome thank you and so um I guess one thing kind of like aligns with the user experience kind of thing uh recently you know there's a lot of like teams I've heard like exploring it so ERC uh like the account abstraction for uh four three three seven right uh and then that's sort of being categorized as one of like the intent architecture right and so I know like from the intent uh flash Bots uh Suave are also like moving on that front and so I want to uh you know understand like your general um yeah well I think it's important to like separate different things here because uh I feel like like sometimes I feel like there's what I want and then there's what the crazy deep High people want and like all I wanted is like more secure wallets so that like people including myself can like hold money without you know constantly being worried that someone's gonna steal the the private key or the private key is going to get lost right and then other people are like oh no I want to be able to do a 78 dimensional defy and put these seven transactions together at the same time and uh and raise all that to uh to the power of 3.7 and then I can increase my APR by 36 percent wow okay it's a bit of an exaggeration but I'd say no I think there's other things that got added that I think like actually make sense to do an account abstraction like but so my original goals were one is a supporting multi-sig wallets and uh social recovery be almost the same thing as multi-sig also being able to upgrade to different forms of cryptography right so there's a lot of like talk about 6K R1 to get ft is inside of a existing interested Hardware devices eventually we'll have to switch to either hash based or lattice because of quantum computers and all these things then there is the desire to like for example use tokens to pay for it to pay for transaction fees which is like fine we can expand and support it and then the desire to do multiple operations within one transaction which is also you know easy to support but then there's this uh more like I think there's this much more expansive vision of intents which basically says like a user just specifies the conditions like here's what I want to have changed to my accounts and then anyone else can like go and fill in an action and as long as the action satisfies the conditions like whatever it is it can get included and the the transaction pays the fees for it and one of the challenges that you get into there is that there is a trade-off between like functionality and maintaining the like decentralized mempool right because one of the really big design goals of 4337 and like this is why it just ended up having to be so hard is we want it to be possible for you you users to like basically interface with it in the same way that they do with regular transactions today right you send messages or you send your transaction to a public peer-to-peer Network anyone can join the network it gets automatically broadcasted then validators are can run Autumn on a very basic software that takes these transactions puts them in a block gets basically the optimal outcome right and the transactions get included and like you don't have to deal with DOs risks because the uh the accounts model like solves that for you right like half the complexity of 4337 is splitting transactions up into two components where one is validation the other is execution so and like there's these restrictions where for example validation is only allowed to access the account that like is the account that's sending the transaction and the reason why that's there is to prevent a problem that I call multi-invalidation right which is where you basically imagine send a thousand transactions from a thousand different accounts and then those transactions all like access the same account as part of their validation but then if they do that then they can send one transaction that just like flips the state of that account and then just make all of those transactions become invalid right and if this is system is allowed to do that then I can like pollute the mempool send a thousand things like make all the nodes in the map will slow to a crawl and only have to pay 20 like 26 000 gas for one transaction right and like this so 4337 like the reason why it has complexity and restrictions is basically to manage problems like that now a lot of what people want to do is they have wants to like and do things that were like pretty far from sort of you know the original intended scope of these account abstraction ideas and like there's value in doing a lot of those things right because you basically get to essentially generalize um you know things like Cal Swap and like basically create this sort of open infrastructure for even like you know doing things like asset exchanges um instead of having to rely on um you know it is uh individual protocols which I think is good and like I think you can even increase decentralization right because the status quo is either you go through uniswap and there's like or you go through castlewap Castle Ops centralized intermediary they might decide to block you one day I mean even oh okay actually yeah I think the uniswap UI actually still blocks one of my accounts because it interacted with tornado cash one day even but you know you know so let's uh like I understand the the desire here right but uh and the like that's like one is not a substitute for the other right and the reason why intents are not a substitute for cat abstraction is because like they don't satisfy the same decentralization properties right like having an open man pool for arbitrary pre and post conditions is just not possible in the same way and so yeah like you basically what I want to see is like I want to see is some kind of architecture that gives you know like maximum viable decentralization for all of the different use cases and like if you want to do fancier stuff then like you have to rely on more centralized Builders but like if you don't then you don't and that's uh yeah like this is just you know something that I'm you know I hope that developers can uh yeah like continue to keep in mind and I think I mean recently there has been more Awareness on some of these issues especially among some of the developer teams which is good right like I yeah you know even one or two years ago a lot of the discussion was around uh like oh you know why does stuff have to be so complicated like let's just like do this thing and make everything Reliant Builders and now things are really like are really moving toward this um other model um also uh the the discourse around inclusion lists I think which like provide in protocol uh kind of transaction by transaction I guarantee is that the transaction will be included even if Builders don't want to include it um and like that limits the power that Builders can have but like in order to benefit from that erc4337 has to eventually go in protocol which it I mean the current plan is that it eventually will but then for something to go on protocol like it has to like actually do the separation of validation and execution right actually I think I go off right now you know no kids like you think he's in the process of working on an intense architecture that can kind of work inside of 4337 um so yeah no there's interesting stuff happening I just that you know I hope the different people who have the different uh goals talk to each other and make sure that there's a coherent uh ecosystem with a coherent philosophy being uh being built on things what decentralization get preserved yeah cool um yeah do you want to add anything yeah like I mean like all these are very exciting but like at the same time like like um like I'm in touch with some like uh like average users like like whatever you said that never connect with me very young people and probably their Educators and like even this very very simple like like like eoa translation is very very hard for average users they have because like that you know like oh yeah different chance and different chances have different at work said like there are different accounts and like and if we want to ask users to use like uh no stay safe and like let's add another complexity like it's it's it's really hard like I I wish I could pull like people here like like as the one coming from there right uh you want to answer common well sounds good yeah but I I like this discussion because I think it ties nicely back to what I mentioned like making sure that it's easy for people uh to use and instead of like thinking about you know like very complex kind of stuff and then focusing on what retail everyone like non-technical people can just like easily use as as CeCe mentioned right and um yeah I think I think this is awesome discussion and um so I think we're almost close to the end and so I kind of want to like close it with um we heard about like account distraction that we heard about like privacy you know like these things um I guess the conclusion question is like any interesting like crypto ideas or like you know like these like research directions that you'll you'll like suggest people looking into like from all of us and then perhaps for Aya is like you know how does like EF or like what kind of like projects that you have are like supporting or like these kind of uh this direction so yeah perhaps uh CeCe you want to take it from it yeah but okay I guess that I mean like if you're interested in cryptography and theory and like I think uh zero knowledge prove is definitely very exciting like new papers are coming like week by week and we have like locals folding schemes like uh zkvians like all this new stuff like like you'll be very uh having a good time and like if you're like application developers like try to look into some like simple simple simple like tonish Tundra cash likes them over like a project they are very good Primitives and like you can build a lot of like very useful and interesting applications with them and uh they take some time to understand but like once you understand the core idea then then then you like you can like uh like that you'll create activity like like blow I think for I don't really have like good idea for the long term but for short-term personally I think um the a wallet will be Pop I mean like so one way to think about like what I I can build is what happens if a water is you know gets so popular that's so easy to use then I think actually we have a good tool to really get more distribution I mean for example like um you know um like everyone can create a culture site using Google I mean what the service I can provide for is I mean for example like uh like like they are like um I die I mean yo it's like eight percent can I provide that to you know like uh Taiwan is retail that's actually something can do but for the I mean if I go out and ask like anyone on the street it's so hard you know create has lots of things so that's kind of things I think if if I I mean if there are like anyone want to think about a new idea I think like we are almost there so maybe like next year we can really go out and acquire user distribution I mean build that distribution channel so that's something I think that would be quite interesting it's interesting I feel like with your knowledge proofs for like finally yeah getting to the point where pretty close to the point where like saying focus on zero knowledge groups is almost like saying like focus on blockchains like they're you know because they're basically turned into a uh this background thing that I think is behind basically yeah anything new that's being developed and I think you know there's a lot of hard work from you know xcc and many other people has uh led to that which I think is uh an amazing outcome uh but uh with I think um on the application layer there's a lot of important stuff to be done um so I mean zero knowledge identity related and like identity and reputation and attestation related things and that whole ecosystem there's uh still a lot of uh stuff to work on then actually that stuff I think when if you go deep enough like there's there's even a two of two NPC angle in there right because like you know you have yours you know your private data and then the other side's algorithm that you might also want to keep private and you might want to keep everything private um but at this point I think the focus should not just be in like going maximum Fancy on the technology but also in like creating MVPs that like people actually wants to use and the interesting thing with uh privacy in particular is that I think unlike the pre-seek AP yeah blockchain scene where I think the space kind of had a hard time um you know connected to a lot of people because like we talk about trust problems but unless you're like interested in the specific issue that is um you know like a currency censorship or monetary inflation like most people's existing trust problems with centralized institutions don't really have to do with like oh my God what happens if they added the Excel spreadsheet in the wrong way like most people probably always but like like privacy like is actually the area where a lot of people have many more concerns and so the opportunity you have to build things that people value just and it goes up a lot and like the Technologies are really nicely complementary right because blockchains uh they yeah give you these I mean like open execution and you know if you know transparent uh algorithm and censorship resistant guarantee yes but at the expense of taking away scalability and privacy and zero knowledge proofs like you know what are the two things that they give you they give you scalability and they give you privacy right so they're very yeah nicely complimentary in that way um then aside from identity related things I mean I zero zero knowledge voting and I think uh convincing existing Taos to become ZK Dao as it might be yeah also interesting um convincing um I mean if we want to get out of ZK a bit um better Dao governance like I think look I've written lots of articles about why I think coin voting is terrible and we need better things than according voting and uh sometimes I kind of feel like I'm like talking to a wall and everyone just keeps forking compounds because everyone else Works compound and I yeah like I think there's a challenge and I guess socially legitimizing like something that's not compounded and that's not token holder driven in the same way and like I'm really happy that optimism for example has been doing the two house governance and uh like I want to see other models get you get tried as well and like the concept of I mean like having tokens and also having citizens that'd be something that gets expanded on more um so you know I think there's an interesting space there to experiment in as well um I may not be answering to your question directory but since this is the last message to the Taiwanese Community um as I said the Taiwanese Community has been maybe like with good quality talents and we have xiaoi here she's sitting here like she should be actually sitting here then you don't have to you know have speak English you know if you didn't have me but anyway she's been she's a core researcher at EF but also for ethereum and then she's been a superstar so when I met her my respect to the Taiwanese Community has started uh and of course we have amazing other you know like male researchers do but she's representing women she's representing like Asian researchers so that's um I'm looking forward to that for the Taiwanese Community to inspire Us in the same way and maybe you know we to to do research on all the things that vitalik listed now uh that can come from this community because this is has very strong amazing community so I'm looking forward to it thank you for seeing more of that thank you so much and I actually want to follow up on that because I was watching your presentation on like learning in like infinite learning through that thing and I I'm you know I I feel like that's like a message that I received one of the messages I received is like even if you're a beginner or like learning in between you don't have to be like the pro already you can already build stuff that benefits your peers benefits your you know like your community and sexually you just like have some sort of tutorial that's already very contributing that's that's why I was like really like loving about that presentation thank you so much thank you thank you if you don't know about this like you can look at an infinite Garden it's our vision of at this time Foundation but thank you for saying that thank you and with that I think uh we're going to conclude this panel and so thanks again the talk and I uh um you know young one and CeCe to join myself and then yeah thanks everyone [Applause]