BBW22 - Day 2 - Disrupting the Music Industry with Web3

[Music] I think Boston is is um much more of a significant kind of geographic location for uh web3 blockchain technology than it gets its due and I'm grateful to everyone here to beginning to help others recognize that um be remiss if I didn't shout out Chris winter um he is uh he's you know he he said the right word when he was talking about blockchain and as we think about it and thinking about it from a value-centric perspective um you know my probably my most recursive thought that goes through my head when I'm working through things is is Clark's Third Law which is sufficient Technologies indistinguishable from Magic and it's just a long way of saying that that the end you users for these Technologies or maybe a short way of saying the end users for these Technologies generally do not care about what the underlying Tech is and the longer we emphasize and lead with that rather than creating real value the longer we'll have trouble with with kind of mass adoption so you know for me my value that guides me and has guided me through my entire career has been to try to help artists with a capital A create sustainable careers on their own terms that's what I do it's what I've been doing since I was 19 years old releasing records of my own band out of my my dorm room and along the way I've done things like run the world's largest Independent Record label and start tune core which is paid out over a billion dollars to artists and then several years ago I I read the Satoshi white paper like I'm sure everyone else and I was deeply fascinated not So Much by Bitcoin but by that substrate layer of blockchain and I thought to myself well if if we can actually find a way to disintermediate monetary transactions the same thing could be true for copyright generally and I'm a copyright attorney and and so I've seen the challenges that that not only musicians have but people outside of the music industry face when they when they try to iterate in the music space because of the the challenges around copyright unfortunately the the people that that that tend to get harmed the most by those challenges um are the artists and the web 2 era um will go down in history as the era in which the platforms realized that they didn't need to make anything but all they really needed to do was harvest the work of others and then organize it right which in and of itself isn't a bad thing right YouTube harvested the work of videographers or amateur videographers Instagram harvest the work of photographers Twitter harvest the thoughts Uber harvest the cars all of these things and so the the kind of colloquial term for that became the gig economy but if you think back in terms of what gig meant pre what we now think of the gig economy you'd remember that it if someone said you know I have a gig you'd realize how they probably either had um a music gig or an acting gig it didn't mean that you were going to go deliver groceries or be a taskrabbit and I've long written about how music is sort of a canary in a coma as goes the music industry and as goes how we treat musicians so goes the world right and so if you look at this kind of gig economy that we find ourselves in what's happened is that that almost all Industries are now treating their employees or their stakeholders the way the music world or the world treated gig artists and when you unpack that you realize that the gig economy is not a great one it's one where there's little to no social safety net little to no um kind of retirement funding little to no time off little to no health insurance right musicians and artists generally have faced that from the start now everyone is right um the difference again is that with musicians and creators there's at least that that music reward that happens um one of my favorite artists is is the great artist Lucinda Williams who is you know objectively a fine artist and poet and everything else struggling right now but um I was real close with her guitar player and Lucinda if you know her at all she's not an easy person to kind of work with us as many Geniuses aren't and so I asked Beau I was like the guitar player is like man how do you how do you deal with being on the road like it must be so challenging he said it is but that hour and a half on stage that musical reward makes up for it all and I think all of us understand that to a degree but in order for that to continue we need sustainability right and so when we talk as Chris did about values sustainability is a big one I chose to Hitch my wagon to algorand because Silvio Macaulay invented a system there that is sustainable from a environmental standpoint but also sustainable because we can do transactions quickly and cheaply so I'm honored to be up here with colleagues that are working in that same environment the topic of this this talk here is disrupting the music industry with web 3. well we all know that with disruption comes opportunity but really it also comes with responsibility and and migrate fear and what I've been fighting for forever is making sure that web 3 doesn't just become another version of web 2 right um we can argue about the merge that happened with eth recently but we can't argue with the fact that Now 46 percent of the transactions that are being validated are being done by two people or two consortiums that's not decentralized by any objective standard so we are at risk at just building a web three that's verticalized like web 2. but we have to understand the value as to why we don't want to do that and and and the value needs to be that these creators need to have their self-sovereign identity with respect to their data they need to be valued more than a cog and a machine that people can build Enterprise Value on so with that long spiel ahead I want to talk about how we disrupt so to speak but I also want to talk about how we rebuild in a more sustainable way so I'd like our panelists to introduce themselves and then we'll get into it Margaret yeah thanks George if you haven't heard George speak before it's clear that he's a professor I love I love the lead-ins too um so hey everyone I'm Margaret uh I'm with Steve Quincy we are a decentralized sync licensing Marketplace built on algorand proudly and um exactly you know addressing some of the issues that George outlined is that sync licensing is a really complex interesting slice of the music industry and you know I like to say it's fraught with intermediaries and it's very Tangled and hard to understand so especially if you're an artist trying to navigate that so we really see ourselves as a tool that artists can have in their tool belt to you know as George says create a sustainable career on their own terms and really you know take control over how their music is used and you know see see the the output immediately when they're interfacing with this tool so it's you know we're really passionate about giving artists more options than we're traditionally available through the music industry and something that you know I go back actually to a lecture of yours that I think about often where it was like the question was something like you know who here thinks that you know labels and like traditional music industry is is totally exploitative and like awful and everyone knows the stories it's like yeah we've all heard about how people especially people of color and women have been screwed over by the music industry forever and ever and then it's like but how many of you if offered you know the chance to sign with a big label today would do it and everyone's like yeah let's go exploit me so we're hoping that we're hoping that you know what we can do is build tools so that people don't have to you know make that that deal and sign their name on you know the devil's dotted line um Keithley will hate that I said that but but you know really like it doesn't need to be that way we have other opportunities and that's why when we talk about crypto and the things that enables it's not crypto for crypto's sake it's a means to an end at providing more opportunity to more people especially artists like your art is not a commodity it is a way for you to make a living so we want to enable that and we believe that if we can do that well the world will be a better place filled with more art so that's what we're trying to do yeah great excellent I we got a lot of overlap at the Napster side so I'm Brandon wolf I'm the interim CTO at Napster uh I'm technically paid by Al Grant I work at Al Grande as part of the acquisition I've been moved in as CTO um and yeah I think the same thing at Napster we we look at the you know the way the labels are they're a big part of our ecosystem right they're a big part of um you know we've got multi-million song catalogs and we're digital streamer just you know like you know on the Spotify iTunes that kind of stage but we don't look at them as the enemy we look at as an option and freedom is choice so artists have that if that's the way you want to go if you want to raise your hand and be exploited then that that should be your choice and you can go that route but we're also going to offer a different way in that you know you can do uh a lot of your music can be um I don't want to say crowdfunded but it is it is to the point where it is it's Community Driven and the the mission at Napster not just of what we do and how we do but why we do it is for the love of Music we want to bring artists and fans together that's really what we're about so uh as as we're you know moving into web three now with Napster taking it from web 2 it's a 22 year old you know technology platform that we're moving into web3 you know we're going to start opening up a lot of those Avenues exploring the usage of wallets and like how that becomes part of your actual identity that you own and not some large major Mega corporation that sells it and resells it you can take that with you and own it with you we really take those things seriously and so there's a lot of utility we want to add to it because you talked about you know adding value uh to you know as brought up earlier that's something that we want to do in Napster too it can't just be a bunch of fluff and a bunch of build up of just things that everybody else is doing so glad to hear that you're on the same uh on the same boat with this so yeah thank you yeah thanks Brandon thanks so Margaret maybe maybe talk a little bit about you know you use the keyword sort of disintermediation I've always said that like licensing music into film in 22 2022 is sort of analogous to booking travel in 1975 or something there's no real systems you have to know a person you call phone you know and I own a Publishing Company a traditional one so I I've seen it um in in real life but like so what is what is dequincy's approach to to actually disintermediate or just generally create efficiencies and you can intersperse web3 or just your values or whatever like again I don't know that this needs to be a talk so much about well if you do a social token it it needs to be more about well okay we we know what the current state is we know there's a desired State how are how are you helping move the ball to that yeah absolutely so I think when I first learned about you know what you and Keely were building at DeQuincy before it was you know really a thing you know I suppose in transparency so it doesn't come back to bite me I'm a co-founder of DeQuincy co-wrote the white paper Etc I I'm not uh Keely hollerman is the CEO but just in transparency I obviously have skin in the game with regards to sequence uh yes true so the thing that fascinated me about this is that like my background before you know I really dove in full time into the whole crypto world was that I was just you know like anyone else just like a dumbass retail Trader you know I was like talking go up that's so cool and then I was like okay what what is the underlying technology why is this special why is this cool and when you know keatley was telling me about you know similar to the way the way that he pitched it to me a year ago was similar to the way that you know Bitcoin removes the need for a centralized Bank to facilitate transactions this is what I want want to do for sync licensing this is what I want to do you know for music licensing because it's the same thing when you have that intermediary it takes a really long time for people to get paid there are so many different rights holders who all need to negotiate and it's something that takes a very long time it's expensive often if you know if I'm an artist and I get a cool sink placement I'm so excited someone's going to pay me to put my music in a show on the CW like you know I'm go I'm headed to the top and then by the time everyone's taking their cut you like have this really sad check and you're like all right maybe next time you know exposure I'll eat it for dinner um so we were you know he was thinking okay if we can make these transactions more peer-to-peer not only can they be faster more efficient but artists can retain you know a greater percentage of their earnings and when they do that and when it's possible to make a living off of your art you can make a living off of your art and you you can put more into it and that's really cool and so you know we I saw that as it was presented to me at the time as you know analogous to the thing that made you know digital Assets in general really exciting and so I love the application the real world application and taking it back to that theme of today like crypto blockchain web3 whatever is only as exciting as its real world application I don't care that it's blockchain like it's not cool because it's blockchain for blockchain's sake it's cool because we're adding real value to real people's lives and so you know only as far as you can do that is as far as like I care and you know that's what we're trying to do so just to kind of like overarching how does DeQuincy work and how do I think you know a lot of these systems will work kind of on a you know just broad Contours um an artist or a rights holder can upload their music to the marketplace and then someone can connect their algor and wallet now but hopefully you know at some point it will be credit card whatever you want and they can purchase a license directly and it's right now it's through an atomic swap there will be more complexity as more rights holders are added and it's just a one-to-one transfer and once I do that I've essentially minted the sync license as an nft so that's another really cool use for an nft whereas it's like it doesn't just need to be like a JPEG of a weird anthropomorphic animal no offense if you love your anthropomorphic animals I hate them uh I like a lot of nfts I just think a lot of them are creepy uh so you know this is this it's significant that it's you know immutable and on chain because it's you know it's a legal document and it's one that we're able to you know create instantaneously and it's for you know in this case um nft and metaverse sync licenses in particular which is really novel and I don't think anyone else is doing it exactly that way but we're able to you know say I'm a music rights holder and you know Brandon wants to license my music for something we could do the steel over dinner and it can be done and the money is in my wallet you know by the time we get dessert so I think that that's really exciting it's very novel and I would love to see more industry pushing that way towards faster payments to Center mediations we'll have fun so thank you so so maybe speak to that Brandon you know faster payments disintermediation just high level what is Napster thinking about in terms of those things and then I want to dive deeper on some specifics but you want to kind of build off of that I think starting at the front and I mean we're going to use nfts for things like subscriptions when you have a subscription in Napster you'll hold that in your wallet we will also be offering a lifetime subscription that's going to be rewarded through a whitelist Genesis minting that we're gonna that we're going to do um so on the front end you know that's going to allow for easier tracking of subscription membership so as they're paying for it now on the back side one of the problems that's in the industry now is the royalty payouts and this could be for labels or directly to artists or even into Independence and what that means is um as a streamer it was as we're streaming the music to users we're reporting back that activity that was metrics back to the to the labels or to the artists and saying this is how much your song was streamed and how long it wasn't who it was streamed to and what demographic and oh by the way this is how much we paying you for that now that's a really upside down model if you think about it it's a basically it's not even a gentleman's agreement it's a trust me bro agreement that you know we hope that you are giving us the right data and then the right money if we can start to Leverage The Chain to hold that information it's immutable it's fast it's near real time especially on algorand and the payouts can also be in real time near real time I should say so that's something that we're exploring now down the road as we get into how we meant the music nfts and then streaming is attached to that so that there's a touch point to the nft and as we're broadcasting that it doesn't even have to be on spot on on our platform it could be on Spotify it could be on anywhere that wants to leverage this as we get to layer two and then the royalties are all done on chain so that labels can or Independent Artists or unsigned artists can go and look exactly how much it's being done and what the actual numbers are and they can get paid almost in real time so I mean there's that's that's expediency we're looking for yeah that's wonderful I mean so um I'm kind of breaking one of my rules um because historically I uh recently at least I I won't do talks or panels without an artist kind of sitting beside on the panel um I'll have to play the role of of the artist here so forgive me but I I am um a guitar player for a million years still playing bands obviously in live in settings and all that obviously I'm I'm not making my living doing it but uh I also teach it at Berkeley and and sit and talk to these students so I understand their sensitivity so I'm gonna kinda as best I can play the play the proxy of the artist here right and so to both of you whoever wants to take it you know the the general Viewpoint of the artist is at this point um never gonna make any money off the dsps right and by dsps if you don't know that's the streaming services the spotifys of the world or whatever the the promise of and Margaret alluded to this the promise of the dsps historically has been well you may not make a lot of money off of us but will provide you exposure that you can then monetize through touring merchandise whatever um even pre-covered that never worked right the the revenue um that that artists were getting from touring was not correlated with with strings it's just it's just it's a nice idea that didn't come to pass so you know if in fact we all and I think we do agree that one of the values is kind of artistic sustainability they're really two ways to do that right one is through one is through paying them um for a lot of reasons the idea and disabuse me if you want but the idea that Napster or any of the other dsps is going to significantly increase the direct payment out to the labels is a non-starter not because Napster or others might not want to but a lot of these royalties are set by your Congress people um and you can puzzle that one out at the polling places I suppose but so so then we're left with well we have to expand the opportunities for Revenue generation and I think web3 is is about the best opportunity we've had forever and second to that you know one of the the things that that is always left out of the equation when you think about value creation and how art is sort of spread read the word you look at the value chain and you look at labels you look at Publishers you look at publicist you look at managers you look at booking agents all through the ecosystem right and and they are the ones that are historically associated with getting an artist known and I would ask all of you all to kind of answer in your heads if you think about your favorite artist where did you discover that artist and the answer for most people is a friend told me about him her or them right and and yet those fans have not only been pushed out of the equation but in most dsps the fans curate the playlist pay for the privilege to do that in other words you pay Spotify X dollars a month you make a playlist Spotify thanks we'll take that and have it tune our algorithm that information never makes it to the artists themselves they own the relationships and so I created a project called the song that owns itself which which allows people to kind of see the value chain but but speak to either of those things the payment direct payment or the opportunities for sustainability both from a Napster standpoint or a DeQuincy standpoint well I mean this is even Beyond a DeQuincy standpoint but what you were talking about got me to thinking you know we're most of the time when we're interfacing with an artist it is through a streaming service where artists are you know paid essentially in in exposure and something that I would love to see in the future Napster hopefully is you know while you're there and while you're captured on that platform ways to translate that engagement and that love and the passion and excitement for a new artist into valuable and real strings and monetization for the artists Beyond just you know streaming the song over and over and over until they get paid a couple Pennies from you right so I think that fan engagement and monetizing it in a significant way like on the same platform so we don't get that fall off is going to be really interesting for artists and fans alike that's something I would love to see Julie noted yeah and I think that's where we would like to get to it's definitely in line with that the social engagement is a big part of our web 3 strategy too having that collaboration amongst users because you're right it does come from you know uh your friends it comes from someone that you know there's also the the algorithmic side of it which we're very heavily invested in too as you you know you use like a Pandora model you plug in a few songs that you do like and it will recommend Things based on genre and intensity and aggression and whatever you're into at that time to come up with those things too we want to build that into it as well the streaming part of it is just the mechanical vehicle by which it travels you know before it was mp3s and then it was CDs and cassettes and et cetera et cetera that's just our Norm of of media distribution now I don't know what that's going to be in the future but that's what we're trying to build this on top of because that is the way that things are distributed now now in terms of the payout and like how that can be disrupted because you're right some of those are already preset and we just have to fall within line with those those rules when it comes to unsigned artists ugc user generated content that's being added you know things can people can kind of make their own similar correct so we model that you've done um so you know we're looking into those things in terms of like how we can live uh side by side with that pre-existing model and expand out you know to be something that's a little different yeah and I think that's a really important point and I want to be again transparent um one of the reasons that I identified Napster as something that would be a good fit for for Al Green or web 3 was because of those existing licenses right if with the majors um if you think about if you think about the challenges the kind of cold start problem of well I'm going to do a web 3 music streaming and platform and they they exist but in in some of the features are fantastic but what they don't have is kind of network effect because they don't have catalog right and so it's a non-starter currently at least because the the majors and the incumbents they're they're doing what I think they historically do and you can view that as either kind of classic innovators dilemma or just really smart business where no we'll just sit and wait we're gonna so crew benefit in time anyway why would we bother um it doesn't much matter they're not going to affirmatively go out and do deals so you have to kind of grab them in existence um and I think it was very wise to do that deal with Napster if for no reason than that I think there are many other reasons um I also don't think it's a a zero-sum relationship in other words I think it's a very positive someone and this is the maturation of George because historically through my career it's been like well you have to just take a flamethrow to the existing industry and build on top of it maybe but you know I I'd like to think that that you know there can be this equilibrium eventually the the major rights holders are going to get their due to your point there's this whole tranche in an increasingly large one of Independent Artists that are unfettered and can go well I'd like to make different types of deals how are you thinking about that if if at all like how do you how do you build that equilibrium in well we we want to first you know one thing we're going to be offering is What's called the artist toolkit so where they can start to build those similar to what you're doing with building their contracts uh into the platform and they can start to have a little bit more control over that as part of this as part of a music nft I may want the distribution to go to my producer to my writer to my promoter Etc yeah yeah exactly yeah same same model but having that toolkit available for them so again it follows that Paradigm of they don't really know they're using web3 they're just using a you know an easier means to to do their job right yeah right right Margaret do you want to talk about that I mean you have to deal with on one hand these incumbents and it's probably on the buy side right like I think the genius of DeQuincy is you have I mean we saw what starvix did the other day and you see an increasing number of of big huge corporations going well we're going to embrace web3 I think Starbucks is actually doing in a very thoughtful way others are sort of bumbling into it but one way or the other um and I don't want to get in the Weeds on copyright but just so everybody knows like license seen a song it's it's almost never a single rights holder with another buyer it you know so if you think about like I Will Always Love You performed by Whitney Houston that was written by Dolly part right and so if you want to license that song you have to make deals with Dolly Parton's camp with Arista records Camp potentially with Whitney Houston's estate and that's a relatively simple one if you want to license a Beyonce track you have to deal with sometimes up to 30 or 40 different writers right and and the buyers on that they don't care you know I mean they just want to track and they're willing to pay but it's just trying to lock down all these things so on one hand DeQuincy success is somewhat predicated on making deals with big corporations people getting into metaverse nfts whatever and on the other hand balancing the need of these individual artists that are like hey I want to play too how do you satisfy both Masters in a positive sum manner fascinating about this and just to be clear right now at DeQuincy we're dealing with Independent Artists who own their rights master in publishing which makes it really easy but inevitably we will move into more complex and sophisticated rights holders and you know when someone teaches you a word and then you just like use it all the time this is me Chris you taught me the concept of composable royalties routing and this is what I think will be really like the Breakthrough here which is that you know more sophisticated rights holders can set up that that royalties environment in a way that once you know they the deal is struck these rights holders are paid out based on how they have you know allocated the the rights for that song So if you're one of the 30 writers on Beyonce song Single Ladies you know that that contract hits and the you know I'm oversimplifying it but then you know it's automatically paid out to you in the proportion that you've already predetermined so that's that's the that's future that I would like to see and I think that that's really exciting too because if we are composing these contracts now maybe there's a cut for fans there's the ability for you know a fan to receive a cut for curation right so if I'm on Napster and I am you know I'm I'm streaming my favorite new song my favorite artist maybe there's a future in which I can stake against that artist's success in some way like I think that's really cool we've outlined a suggestion for that and dequincy's light paper which is published check out the proof of taste protocol talk to me about proof of taste but decentralized curation is so cool because when you think about the body of work that exists online it is massive and it's just there's so much [ __ ] there are so there's so many good amazing things but there's a lot of [ __ ] so if you can be the person to help navigate that and if you can if you think that you are a taste maker there's another opportunity for you not only to elevate those amazing artists but also to like make a little money doing it which is exciting and that's also something that is you know made simple and accessible by this web3 Tech these web3 tools yeah I mean my vision for Napster kind of playing off of that to your point was was was not necessarily like a pecuniary or financial reward for a a curator in other words if I go and curate something the vision I always had was whoa I get a token right and this is a stoe model and then that token is something that that I can then redeem for maybe like an AMA with an artist I love because again being proxy for the artist my fans they don't if they're net promoting in other words if they're telling their friends about music I love um they don't want money from that gesture right they want to get closer to the band right they want to get some something they can't get a demo a live track Etc and I just you mentioned an artist toolkit I think that there needs to be a fan toolkit too right like the the thing that gets lost through a lot of this is like the the customers if what my um my um my dishwasher broke right like I have no [ __ ] idea how my dishwasher works right nor should I I just call someone and say make this work it's the same thing with the fan like we can't expect a fan to go I don't know how I I all I know is that I pay X numbers of dollars a month and I literally have all the music I could ever want there is cognitive dissonance in the sense of I know my artists are kind of struggling so like what what when you say artist toolkit is there thought also on kind of the fan engagement you know as well yeah part of our mission is bringing the artists and fans together and we're exploring things like rewards for curation so that you can earn as you're as you're doing those and you can build status within that within that particular group we do see the organic formulation of of social circles around genres around artists around venues and events that are going on and so so I think that will be that will be part of it but also to the fan I mean having just a that direct access to the either it's an Ama or what we're looking at also is maybe dabbling in the metaverse too so we've been looking at you know there's been a lot that's been going on in decentral land and roadblocks and some of these these um these meta galaxies that are starting to form in terms of artists doing a lot of promotional work out there and and integrating with their own fans in a much more um uh direct way than just through you know a stage and a crowd and so we're looking to see how Napster can you know be a part of that and and really be that that kind of springboard of getting that music in there and and Integrations and you may not be um you know in your seat the right person but I'll ask it anyway but you know Napster again why it just seemed to me like such a logical um kind of Resurrection um was because of it like if you think about Napster it wasn't just the first kind of like pirate music streaming service in 1999 it was truly the first decentralized peer-to-peer social network that's right right I mean if you know anything about your history Friendster predated Myspace and Facebook well Friendster called it so Friendster because they were playing off the Napster idea so there is this institutional history of of really bringing the joy back to music discovery which has been completely obliterated in the ensuing years also Napster brought back the joy of music sharing right I'm old enough to remember the days of sitting in a dorm room and just plucking records out and each person put it on right that's kind of an a skeuomorphic way what Napster did so there's this this at least this ethos and to your point it's 20 years old it's been through a billion different owners but is there any concept of like well maybe there was some value that's embedded into the DNA that's maybe finally now technologically able to to you know kind of emerge in a really I think so yeah I think not only reputational wise because yeah it's it is the OG disruptor I mean we went from CDs at the time to MP3 so I mean I talk about how we we won that war we may have lost some of the legal battles along the way and we did it in a little bit of subversive way but we won the war because no one buys CDs anymore no one goes to Tower Records anymore and I think that is embedded in the DNA as part of the culture that we have at Napster that is we want to be disruptive we don't want we don't look at the other dsps as our North Star we look at how we can actually make an effective change in it so I mean it's built into the culture it's built into the tech and now with web3 it gives us a much broader Avenue amazing so we need to wrap up um I'd love you just to kind of give a closing statement about DeQuincy your vision how people here who are obviously True Believers thank you all for braving this weather and being here you know we all have to and Chris alluded to it as well like the beautiful thing that I've noticed about web3 versus web 2 is there is a general bias and I know there's a lot of pissing on chains and all that stuff but a general bias towards Let's help each other and and I hope we can keep that sense obviously we all believe in that but so what what should people know about DeQuincy and how they can kind of get involved and last words generally yeah I mean there's not much I can tell you that I haven't already said follow us on Twitter to stay updated I should post occasionally so it'll be a good time and if I can leave you with anything it's you know when you know when you're at home when you're settled down go and like spend some time listening to music just like close your tabs and like reconnect listen to an album front to back like I think that so much of that is lost because of the immediacy of of music all the time and it's really like that's the point of all this is that we want to create an environment where art can Thrive and be shared and we can recapture some of that Joy so that's that's what I'll ask actually you know listen to an album front to back good ask yeah I'll just say plug just snaps for the uh the Twitter feed they're doing feeds right now as I'm talking so they're they're watching and posting We have a Discord so come join in uh some more real-time discussions we're talking about the platform we're getting ideas we're you know we want to make this a you know as successful as possible for our users so but yeah thank you both great great to be up here [Applause] [Music] [Applause] wait no it's not now now I've got to say something really [ __ ] profound right now no pressure hang on um well first off thank you both so very much I would just beg all of you who are building and in any type of art anything that touches artists avoid the dunning-kruger traps right avoid the idea that because you are a wonderful brilliant technologist or wonderful brilliant investor or wonderful brilliant entrepreneur in other fields that you are going to fix art without without having an artist having a seat at the table I'm begging you not to do that right because we will get back to just a [ __ ] of web too and we've got this opportunity but we've got to give artists seats at the table and self-sovereign identity and do not build tools for artists without artists having a seat at the table thank you very much [Applause] [Music] thank you