When AI Meets Crypto Synergies, Challenges & Adoption | EBC11

Good morning. Testing

morning.

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Let's try again. Good morning.

Good morning. All right. Good morning. uh welcome to this uh panel discussion which is going to look at AI and crypto and what I believe is the beginnings of this convergence. So I'm professor Ashley Banza.

I'm a professor at Brunell Business School which is based in London. Uh in addition to which uh I'm the uh director and founder of the center for AI. I created the center for AI back in 2018. uh when most people couldn't spell AI. Uh and since then I've kind of grown it to where we are doing a huge amount of research in a variety of areas.

It's interdisciplinary. We worked with a number of organizations and one of the purposes of being here was to really work with the panel and to open up a discussion around how AI in and blockchain and and crypto may well be converging and to explore that in a bit. In addition to which I also launched a podcast uh on AI adoption. It's available on Spotify, YouTube and Apple podcast. There you go.

How's that for a That's a That's a great intro. I still can't spell AI. So,

let me go through the panel as them to introduce themselves and then we get stuck in. Go ahead.

Thank you, Ashley. Yeah, my name is John, I guess. Yeah, been around forever. I worked with Lex at a company called Consensus for many years at Polygon. I've been running my own fund.

Uh, basically, I invest in this space. I tried to do a bunch of things and, uh, yeah, I've done a bit of work, well, investing, I guess, mostly in the, uh, crypto AAI space, although not terribly successfully. so far.

That's a fantastic introduction. I'm humbled that I also have like an an emotional affinity to all the parts of of what you said. My name is Lex. I'm a co-founder of Generative Ventures. We are a fund focused on the machine economy, which is the overlap of crypto, fintech, and artificial intelligence.

Um, I've been a fintech entrepreneur and then spent uh a while at Consensus and in crypto. And these days we're trying to figure out from which direction the robots will take over all of our money.

Yeah, thanks guys. Uh my name is Xavier Megan. Uh I just launched a venture fund very recently called Fractice. Uh we primarily invest in crypto and AI infrastructure and social apps. Uh we've made 10 investments so far and we're actively investing in the crypto and AI space right now.

Good morning everyone. Buenos Diaz.

My name is Eloy Perez. Uh I am an expansion manager with the newest blockchain on the block, Expetest Layer 1 Protocol. Uh we are here to introduce ourselves to the world. And uh as you guys can see we have a group of about 100 people that travel from all over the world from the US, Mexico, all of Latin America, Canada uh here to uh let everybody know that we are here. Super excited to be on this panel and uh talk about AI and blockchains.

Great. Thank you for those introductions. Let's get started.

I feel like I'm on Twitter.

Yeah,

you will be.

I've got a fan base. I didn't even know I had. Um, so let's get started. What do you see as the strategic opportunities and synergies between crypto and AI?

Yeah. Um, I guess you have some luchadors as well, which is super cool. Um but basically I think it relates to data and so currently in our ecosystem um you have certain let's say services that provide basically a view of reality that other big apps depend on um Lex and I our company our former company helped build MetaMask uh which is I guess one of the biggest wallets in the world and so it sort of gets his view on reality from Infura as an example or historically it did. Um and I think the problem there is well basically this entire space needs to decentralize where that data is served up in a very different context in a more decentralized context. Uh and I think underpinning that let's say service is well a strict requirement is going to be a very robust uh AI studio if you will

that can give you contextual data. One of the things I would say in in in what I've been able to understand anyways is yeah, context is super important, particularly as Lex said, if you're going to delegate funds and have the machines take onchain action on your behalf, you need to be very certain that it's not hallucinating and you know buying things that uh go straight to zero.

Um and when you look at even just anecdotally using Grock or ChatGBT etc. I think for most things up to 80% of the way it's okay, but that sort of last mile is still very hard and you need uh human domain expertise to think through that. Maybe that'll change. Um I'm I'm not sure. Some people say they might even become sentient, but I think Girdle's theorem is sort of a big hurdle there.

Uh in any case, that contextual data served up in a decentralized way with an AI studio underpinning um I think is going to be fundamental and and transformative and a key requirement uh going forward.

Great. Thank you, Lex. What's your view?

Yeah, I mean I've got a bunch of pre-built answers that are going to sound like I'm reading a PowerPoint slide from my mind. Um, so I'll give you that and hopefully we can get to some disagreement um after that. But I think if you look at the cryptoi space, which by the way is not new at all, uh, we're here pretty much after its failure, I would say, rather than at its beginning. Um, and hopefully we'll all learn from its failure. um or at least the first generation of it, you know, but I would say this the the way I would segment it is that there is a the crypto industry can do AI but better camp.

Then there is the uh we're going to use AI within crypto in order to deliver crypto ser or distribute crypto services camp. Um, then there's a a third one which kind of I'm I'm focused on which I'll just call robot money or machine economy. So, financial systems in an AI world. And then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's sort of featureish and floating around. Um, and I don't think we have a very good answer as to where any of that value is.

Like it's it's not super clear to me yet where we can invest or where we're going to grow or where we're really going to out compete. But we have some of the initial evidence of trying you know. So in the first camp where we say uh decentralization and open source is strictly better than big tech. Therefore um you know open AI and anthropic and so on are the web two giants and we're going to have web 3 versions of the same like we're going to build a better foundational model with prime intellect. We're going to build better and bigger GPU networks by uh connecting render AOS and exhibits and so on.

Um we're going to have better uh Chad GPTs with Venice and so on. You know, that approach is largely we're just going to do what they're doing but better because we care about freedom and privacy. Um and I think to date that hasn't really worked very well. I mean, the stuff that we're making is super cool. The websites are full of like glitchy art.

Um, the teams are really smart, but I would say we haven't gotten to the $300 billion outcomes that u Elon Musk can can get to in 12 months. Um, and so that's been a bit of a disappointment, but nonetheless, there are really interesting things going on there. the second category which is we're going to to be a feature within large AI footprints or we're going to use AI in order to distribute uh crypto products I think is really interesting in the sense that it's more mature. So we've got um sort of personalization agents and uh yield maximization a agents and trading agents and intent aggregation agents and so on um that can replicate human function. And the way I think about that is you're going from, you know, when you're buying financial products, it used to be that you bought a financial product from a person wearing a suit and then you bought a financial product from a website and then you bought it from your phone and now you're going to buy it from Chad GPT.

And so the store in which you purchase financial products is is changing. And the financial products which used to be manufactured by banks is then manufactured by a DeFi protocol and now distributed by an AI agent. So, it sounds all science fiction, but in fact, it's really pedestrian. You know, it's like instead of buying a sandwich shop from the sandwich store, you're buying a digital sandwich from a digital sandwich store. Um, and I think that's happening, but it's a fairly small market at this stage.

And then the third category, which is again, I think where we have the most opportunity is let's say the AI world is built by big tech because that seems to be what's happening. And let's say that most of GDP growth incrementally, you know, come coming into into play is from AI companies. And there's some pretty good evidence this is the case. Like if you look at stock performance over the last two years and you strip out the Magnificent 7, you know, we're not doing so good. Yeah.

So most of it is really uh coming from tech tech and AI. And so in that world, what is the financial infrastructure? or what is the money that the robots use? Um, and so you get into payment processing, you get into capital markets and issuance. Um, and all of the financial functions that crypto has built over time.

And so my hope is that that's where we can uh create value. We haven't yet. Uh, but I think that's the the biggest space for us to explore.

Great. Thank you. Go ahead.

Yeah, I think I'll just rip off uh what both John and Lex kind of mentioned. I think for me fundamentally what blockchain technology brings to AI is verifiability and trust and I feel like right now we need that more than ever for money itself. So you know you have Google and some of these major enterprises coming to blockchain very soon and it's going to be hard for us to know how we can verify basically what these models are doing on the back end and I do see an alternative approach really taking off in the next 12 24 months that can compete with these major monolith sort of enterprises building these blockchains. I think the way that we're going right now, there's no doubt that agents will want to use blockchain for commerce, but the problem in crypto at the moment is that the infrastructure really isn't ready. Like what John was mentioning, I totally agree with around data verifiability, trust, like there's different ways to verify outputs of models.

You have zero knowledge, trusted execution environments, etc. I think long-term zero knowledge will be the way that we actually verify this and that could be a really large unlock even for the traditional AI space. But right now we're very very far away from getting that into production and scaling that just cuz the technology isn't there right now. On the data side, John and I actually share a portfolio company called Liss Lys. And what they're doing basically is contextualizing data on chain in very very low latency.

And of course, what this unlocks is actually much better data for AI agents to be able to transact on chain. And so in the past sort of 12 months ago, you had many AI agents that didn't actually have a lot of knowledge. So their output didn't give you much information about, you know, anything really to do with anything to do with blockchain or execution on chain or anything like that. the future of agents will be actually executing on chain and I do see agents as like a competitor actually to many humans today in the way they use blockchains especially liquid funds and I think that's kind of the way we're going down in crypto at the moment but it's not just that it's also the way that we use blockchains like there's another port code that we have which you know I actually believe longterm we're also going to be prompting to transact on blockchains so they mentioned that you guys mentioned uh I worked at MetaMask at some period you know a while ago I think longterm that we'll be prompting to transact and how do we build rails around making sure the prompt is executing on the blockchain at the way you expect. These kinds of rails haven't been built yet and so they need to be built and they are being built right now.

And so I'm really excited about crypto and AI in the mid to long term. Shortterm there's a lot to prove and one might even argue that agents haven't found any sort of product market fit even outside of crypto. But there's no doubt from first principles that like just being able to transact on chain, verify that, key management, everything that agents need to actually live and survive and be autonomous. Blockchain is the perfect sort of infrastructure for that. So I see there's never been so much opportunity in a space almost.

I think the biggest opportunity in blockchain full stop maybe outside of fintech and payments is actually crypto and AI, but it's one where I think the VC space is really underestimating the potential of it. you see valuations which are really low for teams that have outstanding AI skills whereas in AI you see many teams raising at really high valuations and so there seems to be a bit of an arbitrage as an investor right now in the crypto and AI space for the opportunity versus like the people who kind of understand what's going on and where the investment opportunities may lie

yeah thank you for that Xavier go ahead what's your view

well artificial intelligence uh is the hardest thing right now you pretty much put AI I anywhere in any business and it sells. In fact, somebody recommended uh because we are the newest uh blockchain. Uh and we do have a a booth. Everybody please come by. They said put a sticker that says uh fueled by AI and you're going to have a lot more people visit you and interested in what you're doing.

Right? Why? Because it sells right now. It's attracting the majority of the investment in every category. Every business is trying to uh to adapt it to be more productive to sell more to people to be more efficient.

Luckily, uh I think for us in the industry, uh blockchain technology plays really well with other technologies. So what we're doing when when you're merging AI and you're merging it with crypto is going to lead to a much stronger industry. Uh one and I do have some notes because I want to make sure that I give you guys good information. Uh one that's uh that's going to uh create a collective 20 trillion dollar in the next five years. Right?

So this is huge. Both of these industries are still in their baby stage. crypto only 5% of the people of the population are involved in it. You guys know very well. We're all in this, right?

95% of the population still doesn't really participate. Now, let's talk about artificial intelligence. And it's probably even less than that. People tend to be scared of both of them. And now you're putting both of them together and people are not reacting the way that we thought they were going to react when they see such advanced technologies, such opportunities coming into play.

So for us, luckily uh in the in this industry, there's some opportunities that we want to take advantage of. And uh at XVEST we're working on an interesting project through which we are using AI to verify authenticate users and blockchain for privacy and security. We think that the two most important aspects and opportunities right now include information validation and virtual assistance. It's low level but that's the door to get into it. uh when it comes to virtual assistants right now we only have we have Siri we have Alexa and they do very very basic stuff we think that there's a way to combine blockchain technology and AI to really improve those to do uh more uh more efficient aspects other than just giving us addresses directions to a place so there's a lot of opportunities we're working to implement some of those in uh in our protocol and uh at the end of the day this is moving so fast.

What what's new right now is not going to be new in a month and uh I'm looking forward to see what's going to happen in a year. Where are we going to be uh with all of this merging of different technologies in a way it's it's scary but I'm so looking forward to what comes. Thank you for those uh opening remarks which I I think have opened up a whole range of topics uh which I think could take this panel pretty much the rest of the day to talk about. So let's see if we can pick through some of those. Okay.

So clearly from an investor's point of view I think there is broad convergence that that or agreement across the board here that that AI in blockchain and crypto are going to converge over time. They're going to converge. Right. So, but equally there's a huge amount of hype and even now I was looking at today's papers and they're talking about you know the AI bubble and and the fact that this AI bubble is going to is going to burst at some point. So there's this hype cycle.

How from an investor's point of view can you can you tell what's hype and what's reality? you know, what what's substantive and what's what's kind of just fluff?

Well, you just kind of like uh do the best you can and then you sort of hope and pray. Probably most of the time you're going to be wrong, but um and and I actually think the AI sort of hype bubble topic is I I disagree with it. And you see like in the context of energy and so Bezos did a great talk maybe a bunch of people saw it about putting uh data centers in space and so now you've got you know solar there's no weather you've got tremendous power etc. And really when you look at reusable rockets uh the opportunity to get into space at a low cost and so now low earth orbit becomes basically a great place for compute. Okay.

And I think generally speaking there's a consensus that while we need a lot more power and we need that power in order to service this new intelligence and that thesis I think is very strong. I think it's a fundamental first principle and I think it's a tremendous vector or driver of growth. And so that is a pretty easy thesis. I mean you can just buy Amazon stock. Um but if you're in the startup space it's a little bit trickier.

And so uh Xavier mentioned Liz you know these guys uh were in there together. Salana guys, another group called Pangia. Um and so when you look at what these kinds of um startups are doing again I would take it back to data. So recently yield basis launched and these Pangia guys got quite a bit of traction because they were able to produce incredibly rich data. Uh the reason that data is super important is because it helps you make money.

Okay, that's let's say at the startup level the key uh requirement is what this startup doing additive in terms of helping inform better financial decisions. I think that's one laser focus. Um and so that comes back to contextual data but then you also think about how you have to think about how that data gets served. I'm a decentralization maximalist. So that's why I believe if you imagine Dune decentralized, right?

That's like one way to think about groups like Lis or Pangia etc. serving up data in a different way. Um rich contextual data and so now you can get into DeFi. You can leverage this data perhaps with some additional automation or maybe you want to be the one to click the buttons just to be sure. Uh but provided that data insight is giving you real valuable information that helps you get in and out of positions.

I think that very specific um focus is where on the startup side you can you can consider investing and uh you know it doesn't take much for one of those types of companies to you know produce spectacular returns but you should be prepared to fail most of the time.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Sure. I'll take it. Um,

yeah, I think weirdly enough, I said it before, but AI is kind of maybe going through this hype phase, but in crypto, I feel like AI is underhyped. Like there's a lot of use cases I think we're still exploring. Like again, they haven't achieved product market fit yet, but because there has been so much failure in crypto and AI so far, I feel like there's a lot of strong teams still building things that haven't launched yet. And so what I look for actually personally when looking to invest in any crypto and AI company, it's really domain expertise of the engineer in particular. So you have two sort of ways of looking at it.

One way is the AI engineer way where they come from an AI background and maybe there's some other cryptonative engineer on their team and they put their expertise together to build these crypto AI rails. The other side is actually more from a security standpoint.

I think a lot of cryptoni's fail because a lot of these agents aren't actually secure. a lot of these networks going live are sort of like a little bit scammy maybe and I think that like overhyping the token and the numbers and the metrics etc. So I tend to look for engineers with a strong security background in infrastructure which I feel like people can trust their infrastructure and then you can build apps on top of that essentially and this is really hard to do because you said it before but AI is probabilistic so the output it's hard to know exactly what the output will be and you really need to trust the output when you transact in crypto and so no one has built these rails yet which makes it in a way that you can completely trust you know end to end that the model is being used in the way that you expect the input the prompt the outut put etc. No one has really nailed that in my opinion and I think that in itself is a massive investment opportunity and so yeah I think again that cryptoni is actually underhyped right now there's like a lot of preede deals that we've been doing to give one example which I find kind of interesting essentially this team is building a network of decentralized agents and they're competing to serve you the best result for your non-financial intent so that means like I can say like I want to hire someone for my firm uh it'll find other people in the network using its agents basically and serve me the most relevant results by using cryptoeconomics.

Yeah,

these kinds of things in crypto don't even exist right now. But I actually firmly believe in the next year or two it doesn't matter bull or bare market etc. Like crypto tech right now is abstracting in real time and I think if you put this hat on of like thinking about when and why it makes sense to use a blockchain without hyping up the token and some of these actually might end up being equity. Uh I think there's a lot of opportunity right now and you just have to find these kind of hidden gems which I think a lot of other VCs are kind of missing and then you know obviously this could also be wrong but you know I tend to find some great projects building right now which have a lot of domain expertise in either crypto or AI building things that haven't been tried before and I think that's going to give you the largest setup for success as as an investor. So that's where I'm spending a lot of my time right now.

Yeah. and and you can imagine that on the one hand you've got the the the the developments that you're talking about there Xavier but then like you mentioned uh guardrails and the need and and and Xavier just mentioned those as well from a risk management and a and a guardrails perspective just wondered any thoughts on what could be done to manage those risks or to put those guardrails in place

guardrails around uh the some of the some of the concerns that Xavier raised.

Okay,

I'll I'll uh

I'll I'll try to shake things up a little bit. Okay,

so I do want to answer your your previous question uh around what makes uh companies good. And I think

like we're a pretty opinionated firm. So we make the mistake of thinking we know where the market is going and then trying to find things in those themes. And then at that point it becomes a conversation about founders like you said of can this team do this thing. Um and then the the last bit um is like economics from high school that's people seem to have forgotten in our industry and I'm not sure why which is that you've got supply and you've got demand uh for the token and for the project. And so from a startup perspective you can think about this as cost or revenue you know.

So if we see a company that has users, are those users revenue or cost? And most of our industry is swimming in a sea of uh and has millions of users uh also known as uh people farming blockchains. So if a blockchain is paying people to be accounts online or to you know yield farm or to get rewards just to have to use their product generally for us that's a bright red flag. uh but when a blockchain is getting paid or when an AI project is getting paid for their product so for example we've been working on Ethereum for a while and it used to cost you know sometimes 150 bucks to do a single transaction to buy a particular JPEG on the internet people were paying that because they really wanted that picture right uh or for chat GPT you know we can talk about sort of the uh uh the straw man of we don't trust big tech and this hardware is all on Amazon and you know um which I think are kind of um I agree with you but they're religious speaking point they're they're religion that you and I share but you know in terms of user adoption it doesn't mean anything at all um people are paying lots of money to Sam Alman despite finding him profoundly creepy you know so um what people do and what people say is is really sort of far apart so people pay for Chad GPT they will they will pay them $10,000 a month if it were infinitely better. You know, is there's is no capacity constraint on how much they want the service.

So, in the world there are things that pay people pay for um Ethereum, you know, um OpenAI, and then there are things that are growth hacking themselves to look like people are paying for them. And so in cryptoai, we've come across a lot of projects that um that have tried to generate metrics that that have been challenging for us. And I think it's really important to see uh that difference.

Great.

Yeah.

So I want to also answer this question because it's so important. What's hype and what's real? The only real thing here is that the hype is real. The hype is the only real thing. There's an example that we have gone through.

I think uh a lot of you probably remember back in the 90s with the internet boom. Uh I feel like we're going through the same thing now with AI and hopefully we learned something from from that experience. Uh internet was the hype. We had a lot of startups and then comes the crash in 2000, right? and only the strong ones survive.

So, I feel like we're going through the same thing right now. There's a lot of hype. Everybody's trying to integrate AI into their business, but only the strong will survive. I think there's going to be a point where the market gets flooded with all of these projects and only the real ones are going to stay in business and the rest are going to go away just like what happened in in the year 2000.

Yeah. uh and you can begin to see that that that those cycles in any economy in any tend to happen. Lex mentioned going back to kind of some basic economic principles um and you can almost imagine based on some of the comments that have been made where if you have AI agents that can control a digital wallet that can execute smart contracts that can kind of go through and do those sorts of activities. we enter into this kind of world of perhaps having an agentic and people are talking about having an agentic economy. Do you think we're ready for an agentic economy?

Well, I don't think so. Not yet. Um, so what I can say is definitely you look at the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, they implemented a policy where they use code and actually you can't get promoted if you're not using the system and they found tremendous efficiency gains on the operational side. Um I work with a uh hedge fund called Hilbert Group, a Swedish hedge fund, much smaller, but nonetheless they have recently started doing similar. So um and and of course that is aentic in the sense that you're using these tools and they're helping you find P finops efficiencies.

Maybe you can um do some risk metrics and I don't know uh tweak your quant strategies a little bit here or there, but that last mile, I mean, you still need that human expertise to get you to, you know, that differentiator, right? That last 20%. And actually, it's like trying to travel at the speed of light, right? Like the fast the the closer you approach, the more impossible it becomes. So I think getting to that point where yeah that last 5% and that last 1% that's still unclear to me and I think until you get to that point as a risk manager I mean I especially if you're managing I I run my fund with just my money so if I lose it you know I can only be upset at myself but if I had a fiduciary to others I'm not so sure that I would be willing to take that risk.

That being said, um yeah, operationally in terms of different types of efficiencies you can find, for sure we're definitely well into that uh you know that phase.

Okay, we're down to the last minutes and I've got one more question to get to. So, but Lex agentic economy.

Yeah, I love the science fiction utopia or dystopia depending on where where you sit. If you're on top of the pile of robots, then it's great. if you're underneath it being crushed into into meat mush then uh probably a little bit worse you know so do your best I guess um you know I I would love for there to be an agentic economy I think there's already we have all these workflows if you use Zapier you're you've got agents working for you um there's been companies in what was called robotic process automation for a decade that have been doing this so I think that is all real um the funny thing for me is like if you watch the advertisements for the figure robot which is like the like the top edge of Terminator, right? Like Skynet is here. We have the LLM brains like it's super sleek.

It looks like a murder machine and like the most commercial and productive thing that it's doing is is literally just like uh bent over folding laundry, you know, like that's that's the the agentic economy economy is like the figure robot like folding your dress shirts and picking them up. So, I think it'll take us a little bit of time to figure out exactly where the robots fit in. Um, but we'll get there. Savia,

yeah, I think probably we're a year or two away from agenda commerce hitting like crypto in a serious way. Like I do think the question that we need to ask is like what do we actually want the agent doing for us? Yeah. do it for us as an individual or is there an opportunity for these agents to reduce cost significantly for like they remove the need for validators and then agents sort of run these networks autonomously obviously again there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built and trust is a fundamental thing that I feel like blockchain is a trust technology but I feel like the trust technology hasn't been built yet for AI for regular humans to trust it in a way for it to actually gain adoption but I think it will come. There's no doubt again the big corporates are really pursuing this hard right now.

So I wouldn't be surprised in a year or two when maybe even Google or someone has their own chain that these agents are running ubiquitous in crypto and I think at that stage there'd be no denying that these things will be probably actually having more transaction volume than even humans themselves in the next year or two. But there is a question of timing and and product market fit in that year or two.

Thank you Zavia Elo.

I don't think we're ready for that. Okay. uh we are just getting our foot on the door in the door.

Uh we are still in the experiment stage when it comes to all of this uh artificial intelligence and how to use it. Now things are moving so fast that I wouldn't be surprised that if in 3 to 5 years we're there. I would not be surprised. It's scary. It sounds really scary to give all of that power to bots, but that's the way the world is moving right now.

And uh we're not there yet, but we will we will get there in the next few years. In my lifetime, we will get there and probably go beyond that.

Great. Thank you. One last question and I need uh we need to just keep an eye on the time. Okay. So, if we go down this route of of AI and crypto converging, are we going to end up with a bigger uh digital inequality in society?

Yeah,

almost certainly. Yes.

Yeah. Uh, yes. Definitely.

Absolutely.

So, so what are we going to do?

How many How many of you know K-pop demon hunters?

Any That's a surprisingly low number of people. Uh, in my household of two children, it is on 100% of the time. So, in the internet, the number one player eats all the spoils, right? the power laws of return. Um, and I think we're we're going to see more and more of that and there's really no going around it other than trying to participate in that as fast as possible.

Yeah. So, how do we get people to participate? How do we get people to understand and take ownership of this? You've got about a minute left on this one.

I mean, I think the hardest problem right now is just education. I mean, blockchain alone is a very hard technology to understand, let alone AI. And understanding both technologies at once is probably like a very very small number of the population can do both of those things. And the impact and disruption it will have on the world is obviously significant. So my advice is just to try and research and read up and learn and ask questions to people who hopefully know what they're talking about to get up to speed with what's going on in order to get in front.

May maybe the brain chip will save us all.

Yeah. You know,

I I agree. I think education is key. uh we have to put out examples of the great companies that are doing work the right way. All we hear about is all the negative aspects of these two technologies and that's why people are staying away from it. So education, education, education and on that note, is there a happier note for someone from a university to hear that what the future is is about education?

Hey, thank you for provoking. Thank you all for joining and uh thank you to the panel. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.