A New NFT Dimension with Horizon Blockchain Games

okay um thanks everyone for joining uh this is the july community meetup for ekl today we're extremely lucky to be hosting uh michael from horizon blockchain games who've created a sky weaver we also have isaiah list from the local nfxt community and before we get them to introduce themselves we'll just do our normal monthly roundup so again this is the july meetup we're hosting horizon blockchain games our sponsor is etherscan some quick announcements the ethereum cad herders are doing this survey along with nethermind asking anyone with whether you anyone in ethereum whether you're a user or your infrastructure provider or that creator to answer this survey to understand so that the core devs can understand uh your needs better i will share the link later on in our telegram group and and discord and so if you guys are not in either one um we'll share the link later for you to join we also have a crypto art week asia malaysia version uh happening like in a couple days um isil is i think we'll be able to share a little bit more about that later but yeah it's a virtual exhibition so don't worry about mco restrictions uh you'll still be able to join uh it's in the virtual uh like metaverse and i'll pass uh the mic on to uh iman to share on the rest of the monthly roundup all right um sure let me share my screen because it's a bit small all right um so one of the first roundup is the london network upgrade has been merged and the network is set to be upgraded by early to mid august and you know this is finally the eip1559 that has been waited for everyone it's going to be released soon and you can actually see some of the ui changes done on ether scan and now um it's live on a few test nets right tariff yes uh on robston gurley and rinkeby and another one is avere to debut its institutional defile lending away pro um i think they are aiming to launch around july so it is a permission liquidity pool for institutions so it'd be interesting to see how that will go now and next is wyoming legally recognizes first down in the in the united states so this um this is quite big news um though you could check um what dao exactly is i i can't really recall what is the uh what is that dao actually is for for this one and then um yes uh coin gecko recently launched the how to d5 books and updated one so there's a beginner edition and also an advanced edition so i would definitely recommend this to anyone that wants to um be involved and or know like stuff in defy and yeah uh some local news so sees 4.1 billion transactions so far this year it's awesome and yep uh harvey mentioned just now we have crypto asia happening in a few days and we have a lot of nation artists um here and and bank negative malaysia or the nation central bank we will do a pilot project for digital currency in 2021 and they said that uh they are unlikely to focus on on retails on retail cbdc similar to china's digital d1 or sweden's e-krona so yeah i think that's all the roundup i'll pass the mic back to your rf thanks everyone um we did mention on twitter just earlier today uh we might buy just the kwang gekko how to defy books in bulk and then just do like a lucky winner thing uh it seems like a lot of people uh are interested in that i do want to like milk that a little bit more so like ideally if you get the book then you know you'd also share with the rest uh about what your learnings are from the book uh and we potentially can explore if uh any of the coin gecko um team members are free to to share as well because they were the ones that that wrote the book okay and then um next up we will invite uh isa list um please feel free to share your screen uh so that and give a quick introduction to you and the nfxt community so we know what the nft artists uh community are like in malaysia so hi gang thank you for you know calling me up to represent nfxt so my name's uh isilis or a sun i'm happy to be here i'd love to hear more on michael's sharing session later on um so i'll start sharing my screen and just tell you guys a little bit about our collective um just just a little recap um so earlier on i think on february uh most of us were on clubhouse and we were talking about future escapes and stuff like that and some of us were talking about nfts and stuff like that and i think a nero one shaman had started a nft group in facebook and we stumbled upon an another account in twitter malaysianft and decided to pull our resource and help each other to build a community um so i was called upon to become the like the the project manager to ask for some grants right from chandana my creative and yeah that's how it was but but basically we didn't want to do like a one-off event so we decided to to run a community so um moving forward so um we're forward thinking corrective where over here we are very inclusive of any kind of identity as well as creativity so we want to promote the culture of learning and play so our efforts are currently to educate people on the plat types of platforms uh within the nft space um the the smart contracts involved and whatnot probably you know you guys are more uh um you know like professionals on the the matter i just started this also in like i think on march so i'm still here to learn um so yeah our main reason to have this collective is to have a exhibition and by the end of the year called next gallery and um but with once we realized that there's a lot of um learning curve uh that need to be taken so we decided to do um like host meeting parties where we help people to onboard we malicious nft moon aka mumudistan helped us uh with the funds to help new artists to on board on the platform hikatunu and initially the the grant was for um artists to mint in ethereum right but because of the category we've learned that the pos system um is a cheaper way and uh eco-friendly way to mint your nfts um so those are is to help people to get on board to possibly have collaboration and inspire other artists because this i think the meeting parties is really fun um it's uh rather than you just meet um your artwork on your own and wait for weeks sometimes months uh we with no we know uh buyers collectors so it's it's a it's a pretty lonesome uh journey so we have to facilitate that fascinate that and i just want to introduce some of the zetas we have um artists like mulo jio our multi-talented performing artist uh viz wassa who's also a barbologist who plays with fractal art and we have zeix i think he what he gave a talk also here a discussion with you guys uh he's one of our main sponsors he helped to boost the server um rent rent out space in crypto vessels so we have a place to showcase our galleries we have zira who's our web developer um also like one of the builders in the crypto vossel space mumu stand the malaysia nft admin as well as the ones whose help um helping out with the kawa uh exhibition right now uh we have niron our our great explorer who's uh really into like took the economics of this stuff learning about smart contract also building like few uh projects to help people to learn how to maintain what's happening when you're minting your nfps and aldo and also a project collectible project that i will share later on and me myself i'm basically the front guy for this all right and so who are the creative um yes mainly we are consists of malaysian artists but we have people of talents from all around the world from amsterdam japan um spain um some artists from foundation like we because we connected with people from nft asia um and also as well from the other discord servers and they kind of found out about us and they just came in and then we we welcome them to you know probably collaborate and hang out so um yeah this is our ongoing project uh which is available in our link in our instagram and twitter where you can see what's happening this is uh the hyperlinks if you want to see what's uh what's going on and so the event right now that's happening tomorrow um it will be crypto art with asia so not their their first inaugural event was in january right and now i think this there is a second attempt and they had to propose postpone it a little bit because of um this whole covet stuff and we as um malaysia we uh we sending two uh exhibitions uh we to be included in their 50 virtual galleries so malaysia nft is gonna um showcase the 29 uh selected artists uh including myself as well as um hosting few events like the nfst talk the bubble performance the music performance some rave parties and other discussion about copyright issues and whatnot and over on the nfxt gallery in the crypto possible space we are helping to showcase uh nfx team members uh as well as uh featuring artists like red hongi who just got on board into the nft space so you know some collectors from the crypto voxel space can see her work and probably you know opt to buy it you know because her bidding is closing another three days and um moving forward uh these are the meeting parties i think we've run already about four meeting parties so the first one was just a trial and error and this this is the rest and the last one was catered to more um to call on more women and non-binaries um to get involved because it seems as though the the space was filled with men and we need more we need more women and you know great non-binaries to probably help to spice it up a little bit and for oh sorry um so i'm going to share you uh a video of the exhibition that it's a mock-up that we did to see whether this can work in concurrent with our grand submission right [Music] so with the help of muhammad stan or aka moon she reached out to the han community and we got it's not sponsored but we got the support of han itself to run this meeting party to do this exhibition trial mock-up exhibition and it was really awesome we gained some views as well as people coming over to our discord server and some of our members was in uh digital art gallery uh sydney crypto um exhibition last i think it was in may and um yeah they they call us to probably host a talk amongst us and one of our member um sam no to skill helped to moderate the the whole event uh the whole talk and it was widely accepted i think that within a day or two like there was i was surprised that 200 people was looking and reviewing it so you know that's that's there's a there's a need for people to understand what nft was and i think that was a good intro and this coming saturday at 9 00 p.m we're gonna do another one but um we're gonna call up the the top ranking nft artist who's whose sales is uh probably in the hundreds of thousands of ringgit or in dot i i don't know in theory but probably 30 40 ethereum's like that so they'll be talking so like uh we have erog i think he's the number one uh selling nfd artist in malaysia we have never sleep we have fizza from machine east we have uh mumu the stand from the eco pin nfts we have zeitz uh who's a you know who's a collector but yet he also has still some artworks in um foundation and it's gonna be moderated by um sam as well um and this is the magic uh the matic meter which i told you earlier on uh which shaman uh eka nero one has done for to help people to understand what's happening behind the nfd when it's been minted so yeah to get into detail i think he is the right person to talk about this i'm still learning about how does the cid all this metadata works and this is still in the test net in openc so i think uh this for this coming month uh meeting party we're gonna use this to help people to learn rather than just giving them funds and they they you know they they do some mistakes and they don't really fully understand grasp what's happening behind the scenes so we're going to use this as our first trial and i'm going to share with you like the collectible idea that we are running um this slide after this is called oto factory and the first series is the artwork is done by mulo so here it goes [Music] so we're still working on the website and getting the roadmap and copyright writing on and yeah it's it's a little bit different because we're going to gamify it a little bit more so the second series we're gonna have like probably other artists to come in to um to spice it up so we have some giving replication happening so i think i'll continue that on a later date to update you guys on this matter um yeah this is our schedule of uh because we just got uh gotten our grant by from cendana so because the exhibition is on december right so we have to think about what we are gonna do for the next few months so we're gonna run talks uh especially you know um contributing on like uh ethkl uh as well as puntas you know um they call us up for uh i think next week they're in tutor spaces to talk about nfts um we in july we're running the crypto art week um there's a collaboration with peanut art council on regards of nfps um the sydney crypto again we're going to do a more elaborate uh version of it like the other one was only three featuring three artists now we're gonna showcase at least uh various artists from few categories of illustration 2d 3d graphic details fine artists and and search also we are partnering with chaos sketch nation who does sketch walks where they they they draw landscapes or architectural buildings and we want to help them to probably mess do a mass meeting on on that side so they're still um because because of the kovit and lockdown we we can't do that yet for now and so this is um the idea um we helping punta io will be which is there they're going to be a malaysian based uh platform where we will help them to run workshops and talks as well as providing them with creatives artists and it would be like an invite like how conditioned does their their platform so this is the talk which noto skill is helping us with um this is the one that i told you before um and this is the whole idea so uh hopefully uh i think this is just an initial plan it's not fully done yet is still in the works the my goal i think per se is to probably because we've been in in a rut for the last what one year and a half i think we should end up the end of year or start the year or next year with some hope and i was thinking to host a virtual uh graphic audio uh festival uh some sort so you know we we start the year with the bang or end the year with a leicester note so you know it doesn't have to only do with nfps it can help it can be anything you know we can have performing artists we can have dogs we can have white box we can have performance and whatnot so i think basically that's all for me and yeah man thank you guys and i can't wait to hear michael uh session and yeah thank you thank you thank you so anything just follow our email and website and yeah thanks guys okay thanks thanks aziles that's that was a lot of really cool stuff uh and uh we discussed before like there's a lot of things we can do as well uh for ekl to collaborate with you guys uh i especially like to have like a controversial kind of session uh discussing uh clean nfps pros and cons i would love to like be on the other side of that yeah and yeah a lot of other um cool stuff that we can do uh together with you and um yeah that's uh looking forward uh to try all that all right even separately from ekl like uh uh from an eta scan point of view as well like uh to support more uh nft kind of uh uh images uh data to show on the website uh there's probably a lot that we can learn from uh nft artists uh like yourself so yeah that's something that uh we can do yeah of course all right yeah thank you okay thanks a lot and now um let's invite michael um michael please feel free to give your talk about horizon and uh sky beaver cool thanks harith and uh thanks for that presentation izilis it looks awesome what you guys are doing uh so i'll share my screen here which screen do you see um the google slice uh so you see it says horizon on the top yes yeah okay cool um yeah so my name is michael i'm uh the co-founder and chief storyteller at horizon blockchain games and we're building a new dimension where internet economies are fun accessible and for the benefit of all participants and so before i dive in i'll just give a quick overview of the main points i'll cover today and the first is what i already stated is that like web 3 is actually another dimension to reality where we can create these brand new economies and through novel economic design and true digital ownership of nfts free-to-play games can reward players both in terms of entertainment and financial value and i'll demo how our games skyreaver's gameplay and economy serve its players and create a symbiotic relationship between the community and our company and i'll also discuss how a decade from now most companies will be web 3 companies and most people will have a web3 wallet where they store their nfts digital identity assets and more and up until now widespread adoption has been limited by technological and ux limitations but we're now ready to welcome the masses to web3 blockchain and crypto and i'll describe how with our sequence smart wallet we can welcome an entirely new mass of people to the new dimension and by simplifying the developer experience we can enable an entirely new creator class to service all these people and oh skipped ahead there i'm sure you know a lot of you already know this but you know digital worlds now have physical world-like properties thanks to blockchain and we can truly own digital items in the form of nfts and collectibles with ethereum and compatible networks nfts and collectibles exist in a persistent realm where various worlds games avatars marketplaces and other applications coexist and this is a dimension we can access on demand and even when we're not there things to continue to happen and everything is interconnected and free from the constraints of physicality we can explore new ideas and experiences in this digital dimension we get to dream explore and architect from first principles and we get to instill this new layer of reality with values like love openness and play it's really a playground manifest from our collective imagination and one of the playgrounds that we've imagined is called sky weaver so i'm going to exit the presentation and just do walk you through a little bit of the game but at a high level sky skyreaver is a free-to-play trading card game where every card in the game is generated by players through gameplay so it's free-to-play browser-based which makes skyreaver accessible for virtually anyone with an internet economic internet connection and it offers a truly player owned economy so there's a number of different game modes um i'll explain them in more detail later but i'm just going to play a practice mode and we have two different game types so there's discovery where you play with a randomized deck and this is great so anyone just starting right off the bat can start playing or you can build a constructed deck which is where you strategically put a deck of cards together based on cards that you own um and there's a number of different play styles you can choose from these different heroes um i'll choose mira she's a combination of intellect and strength and um yeah i'm just gonna dive into a match and show you a little bit of the gameplay and you know for anyone that's played a trading card game before we've built skyreaver to be easy to learn like hearthstone but with a depth more akin to magic together so there's there's really a lot to explore in this game and so to start i'm given the option to choose four out of these seven cards that i'll have in my deck i'll just quickly go through this screen uh and hopefully the frame rate through zoom uh is good enough and hopefully it looks smooth resumed um but you know for anyone that hasn't played a trading card game before um the objective of the game is so this is my hero here this uh robot with the woman inside named mira and um this is my hero and then this is the opponent's hero this uh robot looking creature and the objective of the game is to bring the opponent's hero from 32 health down to zero and then i'll win and i can do so by casting any combination of the cards that i have in my deck onto the field and so i'm going to play the unit [Music] and here i'll be able to attack the opponent's hero with my hero and then i'm going to end my turn and in sky weaver there are actually 500 unique cards so each one of these has different mechanics and abilities so you can imagine that there's a ton of strategy to explore because the way you put your cards together gives you certain advantages in the game so i didn't read that card properly and i made a stupid move uh that's all right um and i can do this to gain two mana which is essentially the energy that is required to make a play uh and you can see down here in the bottom left corner that this is how many mana i have [Music] so this is actually a browser-based game as i mentioned we also have ios and android apps available and i'm just gonna i think you all get a sense for the the gameplay so i'll concede a match games typically take around 10 minutes um but i'll uh all of you can play afterwards if you want so you can experience the whole game for yourself [Music] and by the way does my sound come through are you hearing the music yes yes okay is it too loud i think we can still hear you okay let me just and since i conceded the match early i don't gain any xp or anything like that um but if you win matches you actually you know you'll win cards and stuff so in in sky river i mentioned there are 500 unique cards and there are three different grades of cards so there are base cards which these are non-blockchain items and you can win and unlock base cards simply by playing the game leveling up and earning xp and then these cards give you access to all the different strategies that exist in the game so you can actually unlock all base cards in the game for free now we also have what are called silver cards and silver cards are cosmetically enhanced versions of the base cards but they're actually erc 1155 so you can think of them as nfts um for those who aren't familiar erc 1155 is the multi-token standard that we co-authored along with engine for representing game items and we can dive into more details about that but um yeah these cars are they're truly your property so you can play with them you can build strategic decks with them uh or you can sell them on the marketplace um and we actually have a game mode called ranked rewards so the top players at the end of each week are rewarded with these silver cards that are their actual property and you know they could sell them in the sky reaper market which i'll share later or they could sell them on a third-party marketplace like openc or anywhere else they choose now you can also use silver cards to enter a really cool game mode called conquest and conquest it's a pay to enter mode where you pay with either one die or one silver card and it's a it's a one versus one tournament mode so if you lose your first match you're out and you lose your stake but if you win your first match you win one silver card if you win two matches in a conquest you win two silver cards and if you win all three matches in a conquest you win one silver card and one rare trophy gold card and golds are really special because the only place that you can win them is in conquest or by buying them from another player on the market and these again the golds they're erc 1155s and they're cosmetically enhanced versions of the silver and bases so they don't give you a gameplay advantage over the silvers but they are tradable scarce assets um and something else that's cool about the goal cards i'll just quickly jump back to my presentation here is that each week there are only eight of the 500 cards in skyriver that are available to be won as gold so after week one none of these eight gold cards will ever be generated again so they're they're quite rare and so the only way after that to get one is to purchase it from another player on the market and now i'll show you what the skyreaver market looks like um so this is the buy page and you know we've designed it to be as easy as any web 2 experience but with web3 superpowers so these are you know actual nfts that you can buy and sell so let's just say like i want to add ikaroo to my order who currently costs uh 3.16 dive so the equivalent of around three dollars u.s um i could buy firecrafter and um let's say i want to buy tactician and then i just click here to review the order um i can adjust the quantities of the cards and then down here i click confirm buy and what happens is our sequence smart wallet which i will explain in more detail later it's seamlessly integrated into the game so that when and this is where i actually own the cards is in fact in my web 3 wallet which simply connects with the skyriver game so that i can come to the game with the cards that i own and then trade and sell them and so if i wanted to make this transaction i would just click confirm and uh we're on the polygon network so it would take a couple seconds to to go through and then i would no longer have those cards um now similar so that's what a buy order would look like um you can imagine a sell order is quite similar so these are all cards that i own and i could you know choose to add these and sell them and it would just be the same process and so this for those who are curious this sky weaver market is actually built atop our nifty swap protocol and nifty swap is essentially like uni swap but for game items and collectibles erc 1155 and so we'll actually this will be available for other developers if you want to make games or dapps or whatever and then you just need to build your own front-end ui to have your own marketplace um so as a company something that's you know i think really special about sky weaver um is the fact that as a company and as a game we don't actually sell any cards and this might seem counter-intuitive at first but we believe that this type of player-owned and player-generated economy will help make game experiences more fulfilling because every card in the game is generated by players through game play and you might think of this as proof of skill and where the cards you win are your property and something else that's great is that skyriver cards are eternal they're never banned nor rotated out of play which means the time you invest to build up your skills cards and decks is never lost or taken away from you to take this notion of ownership further card owners can actually provide liquidity to the skyreaver market which as i mentioned is built atop our nifty swap protocol which is just like uni swap so let's say you provide liquidity for the silver fungi and the dye pairing every time that pair is traded on the skyweaver market you'll earn a fee so this is where define gaming intersect and you can leverage the cards you've won or purchased to earn a yield so in addition to being able to play with trade sell build decks with and gift your card you'll have the opportunity to earn a yield on the skyreaver cards you own so through sky weaver's game and economy design we aim to serve our players with value and to reward them for their time and by doing so we create a symbiotic relationship between players and game creators players get to have fun and potentially earn rewards while we earn transaction fees when items are traded together we grow and incentives are aligned and even if a player becomes board of sky weaver and no longer wants to play they can sell their items or go on to something different and i just show this painting because it's called the thera by this toronto artist named nellybach and we find it really representative of kind of ethereum being this like digital mother nature and offering these symbiotic economies and you know something that skyweaver does and also you know what ideas um izealist was talking about earlier is that like nfts turn users into owners and now consumption culture and community are tradable assets consumption is no longer ephemeral but persistent it's no longer private but communal no longer limitless but scarce and so for the first time consumption is collectible and that's a quote by richard kim and then one of my friends tony shang talks about how the owner of a pre-crypto digital good faces massive liquidity and trust risks pre-digi crypto digital goods are issued by central authorities that manage custody of the goods they can can inflate the supply at will and often limit the trade-ability of those items which is what we see in traditional video games right for the most part you can't trade them at least not easily um so something like a sound digital collectible such as an nft could be worth at least an order of magnitude more and as more and more users come to recognize the advantages of blockchain-based digital items and the fact that online experiences culture and community are tradable assets we're going to see a ton of new and interesting online economies and experiences emerge um what is talking about is one of those uh communities and experiences right and is another and there's going to be a ton more and in fact we believe that most companies and games will be connected to blockchain and web 3 in the next decade and that nearly every person will have an nft crypto and web3 wallet but in order to achieve this we need to make accessing this new dimension simpler and more intuitive and that's why we've built this sequence smart wallet for crypto nfts and web 3.

it's the simple and secure way to own your crypto nfts and connect to web3 and this is the wallet i mentioned earlier that's seamlessly integrated into skyreaver and can seamlessly integrate into any gap so you can think of sequence like your gateway to access the new dimension it's an intuitive experience built with the everyday internet user in mind no blockchain knowledge required no c phrases uh it's a smart contract while it's stacked with capabilities and multi-chain integration so you can view access and trade all of your assets across various ethereum compatible networks whether that's polygon or x-dire avalanche optimism arbitrarium and all the other evm compatible chains that exist and will exist but in other words you can store all of your goods from the new dimension in the same place securely and simply it's like your backpack wallet and identity controlled and owned entirely by you you know up to this point we've seen entering the new dimension is somewhat difficult especially if you're just looking to play around right like there's unintuitive ux there's high gas fees uh you know fortunately we have side chains and l2s that help with that but in general it's it's it's kind of tough it's just like a new person uh if you don't have just a ton of you know money to play around with so it makes things like trading low value nfts cost prohibitive um and you know we've solved for the ux by having a simple account creation and recovery for users so it's actually social recovery uh so there's no more worrying about a lost seed phrase or losing their crypto and so we're maintaining a non-custodial and secure design with this convenience and by supporting all ethereum compatible chains like a like polygon where gas fees are negligible uh users and developers in this new dimension can choose the chain of their choice based on its fees and security so sequence will grant you access to all of it and by making access to the new dimensions simpler we make it easier for developers and creators to connect with their audiences this connection enables more opportunity collaboration innovation symbiosis and evolution more opportunity to dream explore and reimagine the previously dominant interaction models in favor of networks that reward both users and creators and by making access simpler we can empower anyone with an internet connection to experience contribute and benefit from the new dimension and i like this quote by lately about the virtual economy being distinctive and that is possible for almost anyone young or old rich or poor regardless of gender ethnicity religion location heritage or social status to succeed as long as they have the intellect decisiveness and the technical capacity to see the opportunities emerging within it and so we want to provide that technical capacity and access and we believe this new dimension really can be fun accessible and for the benefit of all participants and every one of us can play a part in making it real so for those of you that would like early access um to skyreaver you can go to skyriver.net i can also send some codes to harif um right after in case you just want to you know jump in a little more quickly instead of going on the waitlist um and you can learn more about sequence at sequence.build and i'd like to let all of you know that we're hiring um we have 10 or more open roles right now across engineering product marketing business and finance we're growing quickly and it's really an honor to be on this journey with such a wonderful team our company values our love openness and play and if you want to learn more about what that means you can go to careers.horizon.io and for anyone that resonates with our mission and whose skill set might align with what we're doing we'd absolutely love to hear from you and so uh yeah thank you for having me harif and everyone uh part of youth malaysia it's really it's really awesome to be here and connect with you guys especially since you know we're on opposite sides of the world but we're it's i don't know it's just really cool so thanks for having me and i'm happy to jump into any questions all right thanks thanks michael uh i really gotta say the slides and the presentation are really be fit uh one that's shared by a chief storyteller usually our meetup uh you know uh tend to be um the speakers both ourselves and the guests are not necessarily you know storytellers so i i personally i think that there's a difference thank you thanks yeah um so um we still have you for for at least about 40 more minutes um and uh so um everyone else feel free to ask questions uh in the chat and if you want to ask verbally uh raise your hand and i can unmute you and you can ask michael your question and uh michael when you're answering uh keep in mind to repeat the question if it's in the chat um because we want to let the people watching the recording later to know what the question is and before we start with the questions from the uh audience i think i see some already i always like to start this q a with um asking you about like your background um i i've seen your profile it's very interesting background so maybe you can share a bit more um about yourself and how especially how you went down this uh rabbit hole of blockchain and ethereum uh and separately from that also at the background of the team uh like and i i see you guys are like all over the world and and just yeah how you guys got together and started cool yeah um so my background i've been in the blockchain space for about eight years now i first became interested in bitcoin um when i heard about this decentralized currency um i first heard about back in 2010 i got more involved in 2013 i met vitalik buterin in 2014.

about 18 months before the launch of ethereum and he was speaking to a group of 20 of us about smart contracts and decentralized governance and you know at the time 95 of what he said flew over my head but i was covered in goosebumps and i thought this guy's an alien that's here to teach us about love and economics and i got really excited um and so for a long time i've seen the potential in blockchain as being able to liberate humanity in so many ways economically socio socially politically um financially uh in so many ways but i was having a hard time understanding like how we would achieve mass adoption how would we make it so that you know like my my friends my my parents would be interested in using it similar to how people are interested in using the internet um and then i had the pleasure of meeting uh peter kieltica who's our co-founder and ceo and he's you know built and sold successful companies in the past he's been a decentralized advocate an open source contributor to many different languages and blockchain um for for quite a while and he's at the end of 2017 he suggested to me this idea of blockchain gaming and this was prior to cryptokitties or anything or the term nfts um and and so i i i never like i've never considered it and when he said that to me i'm like holy this is it and he had done more than just like think of the concept he was already working on it so it was him then uh another guy named ian daniel and william there are five of us who co-founded it all with like uh different and complementary uh skill sets so we started horizon in january of 2018 um and you know we started building skyreaver we needed to build uh the architecture and the web3 wallet around it which is sequence it's also a developer platform um for you know developers to make dapps uh d5 projects marketplaces exchanges games uh whatever they want it just allows for seamless integration with ethereum um and yeah we've since we're based we're headquartered in toronto but we have teammates all around the world uh we're at 27 or 29 full-time people at the moment um yeah and it's just a really special journey to to be on so hopefully that answers your question hurry uh yeah thanks michael um maybe you can add a little bit more as well like um because uh if we go on your website uh we can see there's a lot of like the biggest sort of uh companies uh in the space like uh coinbase consensus uh police are your partners or i guess slash investors like um could you share a bit more like that journey of how you started from you know like five people to uh to get the support of these partners yeah so um so we started the company in january of 2018 and then we worked we started developing sky weaver um we started doing state channel research back then um started trying to figure out like you know at first we thought about making the whole game decentralized but then we realized like that's not um that's not going to be effective and we realized we only need to make the ownership of the game um on the ownership of the cards on the blockchain um so we actually had like um you know we were progressing towards a prototype and we realized okay to actually execute this we need funding so peter and i went down to san francisco and we went on a 10-day trip and we met with i don't know maybe like 30 different investors um and we were fortunate to have some warm introductions and it was actually initialized capital uh so alexis ohanian and gary tan um they they were our lead investor and when we just explained the idea to them they got super excited you know like alexis grew up a trading card game player they both love aetherium so and this was back like at the start of 2018 right so there were no trading card games on the blockchain like it wasn't there were no games on the blocks you know cryptokitties was by that time was the only thing that really existed um so um and yeah and see in the chat yes alexis is uh reddit's founder and um so yeah and then we um also one of my friends uh happened to be a partner at polychain so they they came on as well i mean not just because we were friends but because like we had a good business idea i was just fortunate that we were friends that that we were able to work together in that capacity um and then yeah like coinbase came in um dcg digital currency group uh golden ventures which is a generalist fund out of toronto and one of the partners there he used to be a director at zynga the you know really popular casual game company um and then we had like we were fortunate to have even fred ersam the co-founder of coinbase uh come in as an angel uh and then a few other really special people um yeah and then later on we did another financing round and we brought on consensus cmt digital a group called riga ventures and uh yeah we're really fortunate to be working with all of them they're actually like every single one of them are really wonderful people and very supportive and super intelligent too okay uh thanks michael i think um because some of the questions are like buried already so i'll help ask you instead of having you scroll up in the chat uh so cedric asks um how does uh wallet recovery work for sequence uh without using seed phrases yeah it's great questions cedric um do you want me to repeat that by the way hari or is it i know i already asked you so that's fine yeah cool um so we use a multi-key design as multi-signature design and the smart contract design of the wallet as well so with the multi-signature design by default there are three private keys that are part of sequence and one is associated to your device that you're logging in from so whether it's your mobile or your laptop or maybe your tablet another one is called a taurus key which is generated when you log in with your social or your email so you can use gmail we have facebook apple discord twitch um and and then there's another uh what's called a guard key which is securely and encrypted stored on a server and you only need two out of these three uh private keys in order to access the wallet and furthermore we're going to make it customizable so you could actually add a fourth key or a fifth key or 10 or 20 keys and you can remove uh whichever keys you like as well um so you could remove the guard key because let's say you know you don't want a key stored on someone else's server you're like i want to get rid of that one but for most users we think that this sort of default setting will be um the easiest and the most secure for most people would you mind if i tag a little bit on that sure yeah so i was curious to understand the design of it was this built specifically for sky weaver or was it built separately integrated and do you see this the the design of sequence to be more widely adopted in in other areas or just for gaming um so you know we we designed it we built it out of necessity for skyreaver because we weren't satisfied with any of the wallet solutions that existed uh because skyreaver is designed for the like the regular gamer the trading card game player it's not designed exclusively for crypto people of course we want crypto people to play it like many of us within the company are crypto people but you know oftentimes crypto people are pretty tech savvy and they can figure things out but we want to make this for the average person so we needed a wallet that's intuitive easy sign-on you don't need to think about it but it's secure at the same time it's non-custodial it's decentralized because we're you know we're believers in this decentralized economy and in terms of what sequence can be used for absolutely gaming but also any any dap and d5 projects as well exchanges marketplaces anything web3 related and i think over time it will probably become more used by defy as more and more value gets locked into the contracts and people reckon and it's more and more battle tested i think over time you'll see even more uh like strong d5 users use it as well right thanks um very curious to see how we can use sequence for other like you know regularly friendly products yeah totally totally and it's a great question cedric and thanks for asking and um yeah anyone can integrate sequence for free too like obviously we're not i mean it's part of kind of the web3 ethos but we're not charging a developer to integrate it into their project right yep thanks okay um um ivan asks uh do you see sequence uh being used being the wallet of choice for blockchain games that's our aim yeah and we wanted to be the de facto web 3 wallet for for all of web3 okay cool um so um so from what i understand uh sky weaver was one of the first projects to move to polygon um please feel free to correct me from if i was wrong uh like can you ex explain a little bit more about your um like decision making there because like back then polygon wasn't nearly as as used as it is now like i think this was like months and months ago so what was your thinking about using let's say about choosing polygon versus other side chains or l2s yeah so um we actually made the commitment back in november uh so like nine months ago i guess and um i'll be honest with you i had no part in making that decision but um our director of product philippe our director of blockchain research augustine our ceo peter our chief scientist will um one of our lead blockchain developers michael they all did extensive research into what is a secure and scalable blockchain that will facilitate a enjoyable sky weaver experience so that people can trade on the market and not pay you know ten dollars to trade uh potentially you know like the cards could range anywhere between one dollar to who knows what the stealing on gold cards is hundreds thousand dollars i don't know but um you know if you're trading that one dollar silver card like you're not paying a ten dollar gas fee so it makes the experience prohibitive right so we needed a chain that could offer security uh but with low gas fees and the team the group i mentioned they're the ones who decided like polygon is the best and they it took us a long time like it took us months of research um but it's it seems as though well a lot of projects have followed suit right since we made that decision and i think polygon just keeps getting stronger and to be clear is it like a like a long-term commitment i guess if i can describe it that way to polygon or uh let's say when other l2's optimistic or zk roll ups become more prevalent are you able to switch between chains yeah we could switch and that's one of the wonderful things about sequence in our architecture is because we've architected it to be compatible with everything that's evm compatible it gives developers the freedom to choose the chains that you know have the lowest gas fees the highest security or whatever balance they're looking for um but for now like sky river seems like the perfect place for or sorry polygon seems like the perfect place for sky reaper uh and the freedom to choose remains okay and cedric added on that point was infinity slash jump net considered infinity slash jump jump is that engine yeah that was part of and because you said you co-wrote 1155 with them right yeah yeah exactly um so yeah it was actually felipe our director of product who co-authored the erc 1155 with a couple folks from engine um and you know jump i'll be honest i'm by no means an expert in jump net but i know our team did look at it uh we we had already made the decision to be on polygon by that time um but uh yeah they've looked at it and we've we've remained with our decision to be on polygon right no worries i was just wondering if there would be any future benefits you could get from the integration but yeah does this figuring out the infrastructure of gaming platforms yeah i mean maybe there are some things um i i'm not personally sure though right now all right great thanks and um so you mentioned silver and gold cards just now right um and from a kind of a player user feedback um at least right now it seems a bit um like it's silver and it's gold so there's some sort of rarity to it but it doesn't look very uh nice compared to the base cards like it's just like silver and gold frame on the cards right so are there any plans to like make it you know more fleshy i guess yeah yeah i mean i really appreciate that feedback um and it's something we've been considering a lot um our yeah our design team is thinking of additional ways to make them more cosmetically enhanced because yeah right now um the main difference is the the tradability and the ownership and the supply of each right yeah i was just thinking like uh you know like there's all these nft artists this community of uh nft um like designers and it might just uh be good from a uh i guess this is less of a question but like from a kind of a decent place point of view like if you could get the community to like come up with these and then they get their you know like name uh put on the card and there's like a sense of ownership as well yeah definitely i think it's a fantastic idea harifa and actually like we've worked with um around 30 different artists in in sky weaver and their name if you actually go into the library you can click and you can see the the names of each but yeah like that's 30 so far it's gonna be way more as time goes on um especially because like we'll we'll release new um cards in the future as well right and then those will each have like a base silver and gold um but i i really appreciate that feedback and it's definitely something i'll share with our team um and i see you guys talked about animations and stuff and um yeah like we have a lot of we're adding more and more animations in the game and we already have a bunch and um which is quite an achievement for a browser-based game um but um yeah we there's yeah there's there are certain ideas uh we have with respect to the the cards um i just don't want to like over promise at the moment um because you know we're we're still a young company and like getting to to launch and everything so i'm not sure exactly at like what time that will be implemented and ideas are still evolving okay and you you mentioned you'll have more cards uh so does that mean you'll be adding to the 500 um yeah yeah from a gameplay point of view does that like would that affect the balance of the game as you know it gets more and more yeah definitely um so we're rebalancing the game all the time like every two weeks we release a patch update and um i think we've done 70 of them so far and i'm pretty sure in all 70 of them we've had balance updates to the gameplay so it's like both you know technical patches and then um balancing so yeah like when we add more cards we're we're constantly rebalancing the game yeah because i think it's uh related to a question another question i had was like if you say less eight cards uh per week and then there's 500 cards like after at some point like after about a year or so like you run out of cars right to give up so um what would happen if you reach that point where you know you don't have more cards to give yeah so we would um [Music] well you know we will be adding more and more collections of cards so it's gonna like it's gonna be at least a few years um but then we can and to be honest i don't know like i don't know there could be a chance that like the pace at which we release it means that we never run into that problem um but if we did we could release like alternate art versions of cards as in just as an example or maybe like you know alternate animation versions of the cards yeah okay and and to be clear you can only buy or sell the silver or gold cards right but you can earn the base cards like unlimitedly yeah yeah so with base cards um yeah you can unlock all of them for free uh you're not gonna have duplicates of base cards because like you can't trade or sell them anyway and they're just they're tied to your account um but there are um additional things this uh other modes were exploring of what you can do with the base cards uh i won't reveal it just yet because it's not the the concept isn't finalized but uh yeah it's there will be other things you can do with the base cards um but then of course with like silvers you know like you could be on ranked rewards and who knows if you win a bunch you might win two of the same card um of course you can sell that or you know you can buy duplicates as well from the market yeah um and and um on that note um so so how does uh horizon make money from sky weaver because like you were talking about the trading and so i saw fees but then you mentioned there's lp so uh yeah i imagine lps get the fees so did you take a small cut of that or or how yeah so we um on the marketplace there's a transaction fee that goes to horizon to of course like maintain the company maintain the game and then the lp fees are actually separate um but when you see the fees like on the marketplace as a user you just pay that one fee and then it's distributed amongst the parties accordingly and then in the future we can we can sell other cosmetics uh things like we could have cure like you know how there are heroes in the game um so there could be hero skins and then there might be a limited edition of each right and then those nfts they don't provide you a gameplay advantage but they're tradable and maybe there's a certain amount of each right and we can sell other you know like traditional games too right like emotes or i mean we want to have emotes in there already for players but like you know there's different things that we can layer in okay yeah so so the base kind of like way of making money is that that um a slice or a trading fees but there are other ways that you can generate revenue as well well yeah and um there's also conquest so in conquest people enter with either one silver or one die so we earn those that die when people enter conquest ah yeah okay okay yeah uh you mentioned the skin part because like you know if you look at games like league of legends like they earn like you know billions just from those skins right and it has literally no advantage in uh in game play so yeah that's probably something um you guys can do yeah yeah and from like a web3 point of view probably you can maybe even like distribute it out with the with the community like so they get some share with that as well yeah yeah definitely there's so there's so much to explore down the road you know and like even like could be a token in the game like there can be all sorts of stuff right so it's really exciting we just want to get to like get to our soft launch when the economy is live and then see how everyone's treating it in a live environment and then from there we'll know like okay what should we do next yeah yeah maybe a little bit off topic but like i i as you were talking about that i was even thinking about how and you know if you know like dungeons and dragons and there's like this youtube channel that became really popular and like they made it a business like they made a whole tv series out of it i can't remember the name but yeah there's like a bunch of like voice actors that play together and then just create the whole series out of it so i can imagine something similar potentially happening um with skyrim yeah i mean hey i since we started the company i've actually dreamed of like an anime or uh just you know other stuff it's a real i think it's like really beautiful art and there's we're releasing more and more lore so i think there's like all sorts of different stuff but you know time will tell exactly like which which avenue you take yeah and and the device space at least uh loves our anime uh characters sure yeah okay uh so ayman asks uh what does a chief storyteller do tell stories um so um i mean that's definitely part of it and um i i head up the marketing and community divisions for both um you know and like we have three brands at horizon there's horizon as a brand there's skyreaver and then now we're building sequence so there's a lot to do on the marketing and community front um i also am heavily involved in investor relations um you know that's that's a lot about bringing people into the story and bringing people into the journey who want to support you and be part of it um and then you know like public relations um some business development uh and although we are looking to hire a business developer for sequence at the moment but um yeah and you know being a founder in a startup lots of lots of things you know over the years like a lot of recruiting um operational things like administrative tasks here and there you know like a lot of stuff yeah okay um cedric asks another question um how does the design process for mechanics meta game rarity etc look like do you do it in house or is it community driven uh it's it's a mixture of both like the at the outset like the first principles we're operating from are based on our game design team our economy team um you know our game design teams have uh have worked on designing magic the gathering have worked on hearthstone um they're many of them are like legend hearthstone players or like top tier like competed professionally in magic so they had a lot of ideas about like what they wanted a a game a card game to be and what they believed would be the most wonderful for the community of players and serve them over the longest period of time and um and then you know like we were released in alpha way back in i think it was december of 2018 or january of 2019 and ever since that time we've been uh listening to our community and you know there's there's constantly discussion in our sky weaver discord and we're always paying attention to it like there's so many ideas that have been brought forth by the community that we then that are now in in the game and as i mentioned we have we're continually patching and balancing so um you know like we learn a lot about balancing too right through the community like watching their streams or they'll tell us they're like hey guys like this card's not like it's unfair or whatever right so we so we listen um and yeah i think that's essential okay um so uh so we had xc infinity on here uh like late last year and you know like everyone in this space now talks about x infinity right like um and and they're like the sort of example that people look at when it comes to blockchain games um and we've seen some challenges that they're facing you know like they had to move to their own side chain um there are like the xc's get too expensive to buy um so it prohibits a lot of people and and like you have this uh situation where like the earliest buyers or earliest people like get a huge kind of like i would say control but like a lot of uh leverage over the rest of the economy um have you kind of uh faced similar challenges or thought about uh dealing with those challenges uh on your end yeah actually um so there's there are challenges that we've thought about for a long time and in our economy design principles one of them is accessibility um since the very beginning and and that's why skyrim was a totally free to play game like you don't you don't ever need to spend a cent in the game uh and you can and you could even through that like you could play and end up owning silver cards and then use those silver cards to go into a conquest and win rare gold cards um but you didn't need to pay anything and so it's really important to us that the game uh remains free to play and accessible for everyone because yeah like not everyone's gonna be able to afford um paying to enter and we like our whole you know a big part of our mission right is making this next generation of the internet accessible but if only certain people can do that it's uh you know it's just not it's not realizing the vision in the same way okay uh they do have very cool a very cool thing at least so far uh when it comes to like uh earning the slp token and you know like you just play a game and you earn slps um for skyriver from my understanding the economies uh from the earning part is a little bit different where you have to like let's say uh participate in conquest or um like be at the like at the very top to get the silver cards so it's not as i guess easy to make money if i can describe it that way yeah um that that is how it's set up now and just so you know too like i think absolutely wonderful like i think it's an incredible project that has brought so much attention and like validation to watching gaming right i think it's super cool and like i know alex the ceo there and like yeah i think what they've done is amazing and i'm super excited for them and like the community seems to love it um and in skyriver you're right though like it is the rewards right now are for competitive players in the early stages um you know if you're playing totally for free and you unlock xp that unlocks you the base card right but then just like you said hari to earn a silver card you have to be you have to rank in the top uh percentage of players and then in conquest you either have to you know you have either have to have a silver through rent or you have to buy one on the market or you know you can pay one die and you can enter a conquest and you know like in that scenario if you lose your first match you're out but if you win only one match in a conquest you do at least get a silver card um you've staked one so you haven't like made a surplus but if you win two you're you're going to win but you are right like it is a competitive game mode um and we are um like it's been a mission of our our community managers for a while to uh implement other modes that can kind of afford some of the same opportunities not the exact same right because it still needs to be um civil resistant and prevented in our opinion like prevent against bots like there needs to be some mechanism where you can't just bought the game and then it could screw up the whole economy for for sky weaver uh so we're super mindful of that um but we do uh it is it is something we're exploring it won't be in at the start of soft launch um and soft launch should be in the next couple months but that's when the economy goes live but like over time it'll certainly evolve uh it's interesting that you mentioned bots because i think like literally yesterday uh like xc had this issue where uh they found like one of some like a major uh group of players who had been botting and uh they kind of like uh shut it down uh but it brings up a very interesting uh element and uh like for a lot of people who've been in this space for a while a lot of projects you kind of have this situation where you have to balance between like being censorship resistant but also like curating uh and avoid like spamming um have you guys had to deal with stuff like that or like thought about how you would deal that with that balance between curating and and censoring yeah i mean that's that's in fact why it's kind of this proof of skill um reward system at the moment right because it's like i'd be really impressed to meet a bot that would rank off of the rewards or win three matches in a conquest you know like i don't see it happening anytime soon um so yeah we put we did put a lot of thought into that and you know like it in some game it's not like bottom's always bad or like always hurts a game right um because it yeah sometimes it works in certain people's favors and sometimes it doesn't but um yeah we have like with our design right now it is focused on preventing uh those sorts of exploits yeah i think that makes a lot of sense like unless one of those like chess board makers can create a bot for a sky weaver uh which even if they do that probably is a good um thing for the game right that means like you know it's big enough that someone wants to uh create a ball like that exactly like i think that would be awesome um and it's also interesting to i mean yeah chess obviously has it's super dynamic but like you know in skyriver with 500 card sets and different decks that you can come with uh you know you can show up with like a dual prism deck a single prism deck there's kind of 15 different strategies and then of those strategies each one has 100 cards to choose from and you're showing up with like 25 cards right so there's a lot of variance so that would be a great that'd be a really smart bot but i mean you know i'm sure one day yeah yeah uh probably you will and and yeah it will be a good validation for sky weaver if that happens yeah and and i guess one last thing uh related to xc is that and they built this whole community of like you know people creating uh like scholarship programs and then you know like scholars joining these communities uh do you see how sky weaver can leverage on that essentially like an esports kind of um idea of having like like different people like build their own businesses on top of uh sky river yeah um i would love to see it happen and you know in terms of it being designated as an esport we'll of course let the community decide that um we already have had uh there's a group called community gaming um are you guys are you familiar with them haris uh i'm not i don't know if the others might be cool well even if not check them out it's called community gaming dot io and they run uh tournaments it's like uh well it's actually sorry it's software to make it easy for you to run a tournament and it's automated brackets and then automated payouts as well so like you can have you can pay out like 50 winners uh from a prize pool and it costs like one dollar to send all of those transactions and it can land in your sequence wallet or you know whatever wallet that you want um so they've already run uh like five term or i forget how many somewhere between three and five tournaments during our private beta um and and then our communities run another whole bunch of tournaments as well and many of them have had third party sponsors which has been a really great sign for us especially because it's still code gated the economy is not live so it's a really um nice sign but yeah um you know people might build like i mean there could be liquidity providers that's one business that someone could run to the market uh people might rent out their cards um we are thinking of our economy team is you know we've been looking at that scholarship model but exactly how it will manifest or if it will manifest in skyrim or i'm sure it'll be different because you know like you can start playing for free um so it's just like it's just different but i i really think there's like a cool um idea there uh i just don't know exactly what it is but our economy team has been brainstorming some ideas and yeah i mean if you have any like we'd love to share them in our skyriver discord because as i mentioned we're always listening and it's obviously where some of the greatest ideas come from right it's from the people who are playing the game who love it so we're always open to feedback yeah and i guess that's always the dream right with like web3 um like projects um like you have the people being able to build on top of uh the different layers that someone else has already built well yeah or even like someone could make another game with the sky weaver cards right like they might be just i don't know only golds or only silvers or only the hearts like whatever they want right they could make anything with those cards yeah yeah um okay so we have uh five minutes of like official time left i don't know if you're okay with extending um but i'll try and keep um i i could stay like a few minutes extra but i do have to jump to another meeting yeah yeah we understand um yeah but but uh i'll try and keep to a couple more a few more questions uh only yeah yeah so so um i guess related to the question that i asked earlier like um when it comes to wallets um can skyriver work with other wallets that's not a sequence uh michael he's sorry i'm having a bit of a tough time hearing you ah sorry um i'm gonna try again and if not i'll just put it in the chat um cool can skyweaver work with other wallets that's not sequence so at the moment no sequence is the only wallet that connects with it but we will be adding support for other wallets okay cool and um so so when when it comes to the nft art space like um for the last few months i i guess for for a while like people have been debating whether how decentralized uh are these things really if you know like the image is stored in a centralized server you know even though at the nft is on the blockchain but the image itself can be like taken down or changed by the uh the company in some way with games is a little bit different because there is that kind of uh it's not just a picture like there is some function to it uh but but do you see that uh with sky weaver as well like this how to handle that kind of uh i guess balance again of of uh having some sort of control uh over things but have it in a way where the company cannot like block the the car the image or or some functions uh later on yeah well it's interesting with like i don't know if you want to call it the art or the mechanics of the card like we do retain some control uh because as i mentioned you were balancing the cards right um so that's that's one area that like we can we can modify for the overall health of the game and it's always going to be based on the community's feedback and like we're always we're transparent about that the whole time that like you know we need to bounce these cards otherwise if the card mechanics are immutable and then and then you're also uh you never ban cards or rotate them out of play then you risk just having a card that just destroys the game for everyone right because like if you own that card you win every single time um so like we made that decision for the health of the game and the community um yeah and then in terms of art and stuff i mean there are like i don't know if you i don't know too much about it but like there are things like r weave and um [Music] um yeah where like you could you know you you can store the art there um for now like it they're things we've explored but we haven't like landed on something that we've decided to go with just yet okay and a couple more questions um are there any other games or just projects for horizon other than sky weaver that you're able to share uh so you know we might not make any other games uh because our so like we want sky weaver to be a long lasting franchise that players adore and then we're going to be focusing a lot of our bandwidth on sequence and getting adoption and integrating with as many projects as possible and having as many people use it as possible so that they can access web3 in an easy and secure way so that's our like our road map moving forward is like grow sky weaver and then grow this sequence ecosystem and empower more users okay cool and uh last one for me and if anyone else else has any like one or two last questions uh you know please put it in the chat before we end uh the q a session with um with michael but the last one for me is um so if there's anyone that's watching either now or the recording later and they want to create a web3 project that uh you know focuses on the wider market outside of crypto like how you guys are what are some like advice that you can give so that they can build a product that you know the normies would would like and it's not just the crypto uh people yeah well um one piece of advice would be use sequence as your wallet and developer platform that will make it a lot easier for you and solve a ton of your problems um and you can go to sequence.build for that and honestly like that was a huge part for us in architect and what we're doing uh because we just like you said her weekly wanted it we we want it to be accessible for the regular internet user out there so i think it's about like designing an experience thinking deeply about what kind of experience resonates with people and it's you know these types of things can be hard to predict but um i think i think you have to go with something that speaks to you and you just you believe it's going to speak to your audience i mean this is like the nature of startups or new projects in general right like you can do a bunch of research and get some ideas and like if you can find somewhere where like two or three or four things are converging i would say that's a really cool area to explore like if you're seeing like nfts and d5 and gaming like what's at the intersection of all those like where is the market where is the culture where's the world going build something for that and then i think you might have something that resonates with a larger audience and then of course just making it accessible and removing the friction to actually get involved in the first place um and then you know there's that famous uh i think it's a charlie munger quote that says show me the incentive and i'll show you the behavior so like what what incentive do you give uh users to participate is there a reward like are you rewarding of course there's entertainment rewards but is there some uh you know maybe it's a token maybe it's an nft but um something that rewards the participant for their contributions um and yeah i think it just it takes a lot of like deep thought and experimentation you know like get it out and then start iterating on it right um yeah thanks michael uh for for your time uh i think uh that's pretty much all we have cool yeah so uh yeah so thanks everyone for for for watching uh we will have the recording up uh soon-ish and yeah if you have if you want access codes i'll feel free to ask uh there's a discord uh group uh which we'll get the link later and share for sky weaver uh and michael uh if you have any links at all um that you wanna share and end the slides uh if that's okay to share um you can pass it to me and i'll share it with the rest um so yeah do you do you want me to just email those to you haris or do you want to okay cool the email is probably better well thanks everyone for having me it's it's been awesome getting to speak with all of you and thanks for inviting me in the first place harith and yeah eath malaysia seems awesome and i i really hope to visit it someday it would be awesome yeah yeah um when the whole covet thing is over uh please uh come come over uh malaysians are are well known for being very uh hospitable um hosts awesome it's a great holiday uh vacation uh place uh yeah it looks beautiful what uh i i mean if you don't mind me asking what city are you in uh i think most of us are in kuala lumpur the capital city yeah but there's a lot of places that's like very kind of um accessible uh from kl um like islands mountains you know thailand singapore um indonesia so yeah awesome cool well awesome yeah thanks for having me everyone and hope to see you guys soon okay um thanks guys and um so as usual i will keep the uh the link up for about half an hour if anyone wants to stay on and just like chit chat with each other uh but if any of you have to go off uh please feel free to do so and yeah so thanks michael bye