DLT & the Future of Financial Institutions

[Music] hello um good evening thanks daniel thanks everyone um yes daniel and victoria always tried to challenge me by giving me this uh most difficult slot in the day and after a super jam-packed day of the ebc i'm sure i'm getting a bit tired so i decided to put on my wireless and christmas santa headphones to uh cheer you up a little bit but um anyway listen welcome to uh to the last two sessions of the ebc um the first one i'm very excited about because um it gives me a chance to come back and have a panel discussion with sebastian we already met at a panel discussion here at ubc a couple of years ago and then we have tanya shastri and juanki minith who will be joining us in the abc for the first time the topic of discussion is dlt and the and the future of financial institutions uh i think this is good because it obviously implies there's a future and that's what we want to discuss and it would be the same as discussing dlt and the future finance because financial institutions are i think an intrinsic part of what the future finance was going to be so i'm going to take off these amazing headphones so i can really hear you properly and uh tanya would you please give us just a couple of minutes intro into what you're currently doing um your background and if you could what got you hooked into blockchain fantastic hi my hello everyone i hope everyone's having a good evening um hi from me i'm actually calling in from california bay area so good morning from me but it's wonderful to be here i'm vp of product for blockchain at vmware um and for those who are few who may not be familiar with vmware we're a technology company bringing innovative technology to enterprise customers for maybe over two decades now and really the goal of the company is to bring this technology innovation so that our customers and the enterprise customers can then in turn innovate for their business outcomes and do it rapidly but also very robustly right because we want this to be um solutions that um deliver business critical outcomes and it's that that mindset really that we've extended to blockchain and that's our blockchain portfolio we commercialized it brought it to commercial availability late last year um and maybe a little bit about myself to kind of complement why i'm here why i'm at vmware and what i'm doing here so um my background has been in the enterprise technology space i've spent several years before vmware i was at google did a bunch of things on the google cloud platform related to big data machine learning and um you know software as a service product and so on so i've always loved to be at that leading edge of the technology and bringing it so that there are some successful business outcomes and of course then blockchain actually brings both those elements together so so dramatically almost it's kind of the next evolution in infrastructure and it also just enables some tremendously transformational business outcomes right so i think it's both those together that that are very interesting and at vmware there's there's been years already spent on the technology and some very unique technology innovation uh came out of our research uh teams and so on um that partly was what um attracted me to the opportunity it is from the ground up being built for the end prices sorry to interrupt but it is it is cutting for me the sound is it working for you all or it's not working right tanya i think we're having a little issue with your sound try to reconnect and and regain control of the sound and image i think it's better now is it better now it's much better yeah i mean the thing as we said at the beginning all sessions absolutely all sessions are live so these technical obstacles are pretty normal activity so thank you thank you for for coming back tanya let's try again yes sorry should i go from the beginning i'm not sure where i dropped off it's a ton yeah but i think unless somebody else um we understood your journey you could explain to us clearly your journey through google i find quite interesting how um vmware has been doing the work you've been doing for over two decades looking at the technology but how now you felt that blockchain was bringing in this but also the sorry the evolution infrastructure but also that the changes in in in in business um tanya we're going to give you a little break and we move on to sebastian um also for his two three minutes intro and don't worry but it happens i t is i t um if the sign is evening time as well so um if wi-fi or connection breaks down um we'll just go back to that okay thanks tanya and sebastian the floor is yours yes thanks thanks mai hello again and hello to everybody um thanks for the invitation of course i'm sebastian kraft i'm principal product owner for dlt and blockchain within commerce bank um for those who are not familiar with commerce bank it's the second largest universal private bank in germany and we are investigating in blockchain technology since a couple of years already i think since five years or so in a very very broad approach so with digital assets so everything you can imagine around capital markets assets like securities but also crypto of course um digital money like cbdc uh commercial bank money token um digital identities it's the third um the third topic we are covering um trying to to establish self-sovereign identity here and last but not least of course also uh trade finance and we are currently on a journey away from building pocs and having an r d or being in an r d phase to a phase where we want to bring stuff into production um that's that's the goal which we are currently um having and uh following uh personally i am addicted to blockchain since 2017 uh not because i'm uh the the tech savvy uh biggest tax expert uh the world has ever seen but rather i accepted the challenge to um dig deeper into a technological topic which i did not do before and i was digging and digging and digging and then finally i didn't find out of the rabbit hole anymore so that's why i'm still here since a couple of years now and uh very happy to be so and also very happy to be uh here today on the panel and to yes share my opinion on dlt and the future of financial institutions thanks a lot that's that's fantastic sebastian um i love that you say that you got addicted to blockchain um and the rabbit hole doesn't look like a rabbit hole anymore does it it's just like your your day today i know what it feels like so listen it's a pleasure to be back on a panel discussion with you again um and you know i'm sure a lot has happened in the world of commerce bank and particularly in your role since we last spoke um juan may i uh give you the floor please give us a an update about yourself i think it's your first time as well um at the ubc so we're really keen to to hear what's when did you get bitten by the uh by the bludgeon bug yeah thank you thank you mai thank you thank you uh ebc uh both victoria and daniel for inviting me it's it's amazing uh the way this this event is growing every every year and it's becoming a landmark uh so yeah i'm um i've been you know in the financial industry for for a while already like 20 years or something mostly focusing investment banking myself so i was part of uh of the of the trading floor capital markets activity here at santander which is first bank of the eurozone and quite present in euro and europe but also latin america and back in 2015 i changed a little bit my my focus my my devotion at the bank and i i i was invited to to become part of something that we called digital's and under digital so uh yeah i i i i was it was in the since inception uh driving the innovation agenda and the fintech agenda for the whole group both europe latin america and some parts of the u.s it's it was it was of course difficult you know to figure it out and was mostly focused in retail my background has been wholesale so i was the guy taking care of the digital agenda for wholesale and and corporate and investment banking and there i can say i can i can tell you that this is where i think i think that at least at santander we witnessed more impact more disruption and more use cases in the wholesale and capital markets activity i was part of a team launching the different initiatives liquidity management bond issuance and equity capital markets opportunity also using crypto assets and it was a year ago that uh uh i moved on and i decided to to to to join public policy um which is uh an interesting part that that we have here at santander for uh positioning the group um when it comes to regulation there's lots of new regulation underway as you know uh so i'm taking care of the pilot regime the dlt pilot regime mika uh eides ii when it comes to ssi subscribing identity um and also all the prudential framework for crypto assets although this is level one and level two uh treatment that we are going to suffer and um and as a side activity i also got the invitation or the opportunity of of leading alastria which is a uh the the the the blockchain ecosystem in spain and not only in spain we're becoming more and more european and international it's already 600 members institutional side corporate side and smes working together putting together yeah also an opportunity as an at the national level as we all know blockchain is all about network effect and this is what we're trying there and um and yeah this is this is me and i'm happy to contribute here of course you're you sound like a very busy man one so uh we want we'll we'll get the best out of you in the next 30 minutes um tanya has some problems um reconnecting but we have so much to talk about so um we will kick off if that's okay maybe focusing or discussing a little bit around capital markets um the reason why because i see a threat amongst all of you um one you mentioned the dlt pilot regime um i wonder i mean the thing about being a virtual is that you can't look around the audience and see um people nodding or not but in terms of how many people maybe actually attending these um are aware what the dlt pilot regime is it maybe we could give a couple of minutes about around that because as you know it was just to prove a couple of weeks ago i think that would be very interesting and um and then after juan um mentions and uh brings over to the audience's attention the dlt pilot regime and why it's important for my financial institution's perspective and the future financial institutions maybe sebastian i know in the past that you guys in commerce bank had also done some some work around capital markets again you know um your views were the obstacles um and why do you think that dlt is potential um guys give me details give me names and give me really the hairy bits and the good bits because those are attending the ebc um are people who actually have an interest in blockchain um they've been listening they know the high level points they're listening to us to really get to know more at that level below so um please and juan would you be able to tell us a bit more about the dlt pilot regime and why do you think i think it'd be key to that future financial institutions using the lt yeah so pilot regime as it goes is is is the way the european commission approaches the regulation the the the pretty much needed regulation that we that we that we were yelling to have as as they as dealers but also as as as financial institutions when bridging supply and demand in capital markets buy side from one side and issuers from the other side these we started we started the journey like three years ago with no regulation in place so like figuring out testing the waters and betting on the technology and betting on this the opportunity that was in front of in front of us but but as i mentioned uh we all need in the industry something to uh you know encore something to tell the clients hey this this thing you're doing here is going to be safe it's going to be done in a proper manner we're going to protect the investor we're going to protect the issuer at the same time and that this is this is this is what we've been working with the european commission the pilot regime at the end of the day became it's going to become enforceable but we got an agreement couple of weeks ago and it goes uh under a framework that combined with dora but also combined with mika will come up with a regulatory body that would be complete for um setting into the market this new paper as we call it crypto assets or crypto paper where um we can use the power of blockchain of and cryptography to boost capital markets and to put together new instruments that are similar to the traditional ones but are built on this new technology and uh and bring a new experience to the to the ecosystem in terms of speed in terms of uh reconciliation in terms of secureness it's all done under cryptography and uh in a nutshell i'll tell you that it brings an interesting opportunity in terms of thresholds uh there's a higher threshold now after all the negotiations the overall threshold for the whole activity in europe is going to be set in six billion outstanding debt for the whole market it's not a lot but it's a good start it's a good starting point i think that once european union regulators they have more grip on this new market they they they feel more comfortable they already you know control and master this pilot regime this regime will become totally enforceable no piloting anymore so now we have these thresholds there are also uh in a specific thresholds when it comes to fixed income and when it comes to equities uh uh that are expressed in in market cap when it comes to equities and in markets and in ticket size when it comes to fixed income and there's also an important piece of the regulation that deals with the role of asthma so the the unique securities authority in in in the european union of what to do on and and and how to coordinate also with local regulators around europe uh and the industry has uh uh you know i think had a warm um receiving of this pilot regime because is the is the door of a new capital markets ecosystem i think i mean the technology i can see the benefits but i think from a european perspective is the fact that we're looking at a financial institutions being able to operate in a borderless european capital markets um market i think that's um that's why i think the glt pilot is it's so attractive um sebastian has commerce bank been involved um this is something that you guys have looked at yes of course so capital markets is uh one of the topics we we looked into quite early i think uh even our first use cases which we were following were capital markets use cases um so we did uh um um we have live since 2019 already a solution called hqlax which is for um for the the exchange of collateral and the baskets of securities between banks um which uh yes we took i think 2019 live already uh we already did a 100 digital um securities transactions also back in 2019 or 2020. i'm not really sure about it including a cash lag where uh one of our large corporates um called continental was issuing something to another investor called siemens so two large companies who were very very interested into this thing which we did under luxembourg law because we were only um we were only able to do it under this regulatory regime and in germany in addition to what um what we just heard about the pilot regime in germany we have the so-called evp electronic security law in english i would say that's the right translation which enables us to get rid of the paper which we by law still need in germany so we are able to bring now 100 digital securities onto um the market um nevertheless there are still some obstacles to overcome like for example um it's only a suitable for bonds at the moment and if you talk about some securities which you would normally trade over a an exchange you would still need the csd which is hindering the blockchain development a little bit so there are still some things to overcome but also from a regulatory perspective in germany um there is um the there are things coming which are fostering the development of dlt and capital markets um one further thing which which i would like to mention which could boost yes capital markets use cases of course the whole discussion around wholesale cbdc um every time when you when you have a tokenized asset on blockchain in the capital markets you normally also want to have a 100 um secure wp to reduce risk and you want to have a cash lag on our ledger to gain the full efficiency potentials which you have especially in the post trading of capital market transactions and this is something where the ecb is currently not looking at which i think is not the right thing i think this is something which should be included in the ecb discussions this uh for sure from my perspective and uh yes if the ecb is not bringing something like this into um into production in the coming years we are also having let me say a second lag in finality finality is for example a startup which is um which is trying to bring as an accelerary payment system um tokens which are backed by central bank money um onto the blockchain which could be an alternative if ecb is not pursuing um any activity on wholesale cbdc thank you sebastian i mean um it's just i think it's great to hear the uh the volume of um of of projects that that you looked into i'm gonna pick up on the wholesale um cbdc i'm going to park that for a little bit because tanya is just back on and i want to bring it in um you both mentioned obviously we started the dlt um project at european level you obviously we talked about the commerce banks and earlier on it was capital markets that you really looked into and clearly that was when the t the the application of dlt to that area was obviously seen financial institutions as a way as a future way or future or a future proving way um of securing some of their products um i'm aware tanya and correct me if i'm wrong here you and vmware have been working with asx and also d7 uh would you be able maybe to um give us a two-minute um updates or um insight into those projects and why have they worked uh or why how and how could they work better maybe with more participants in those in those pilots yes absolutely so hi i hope you can hear me properly first now yes all right i have resorted to my phone over my laptop which seems to be behaving a little better a very good example of why resiliency and you know we need backup options and we need to be able to keep going in spite of you know what happens with technology right so um it's a good segue into what we're doing generally in the dlt space and just a little bit of context i mentioned briefly again that we're a technology company we've worked very deeply this is over years with companies like asx that's the australian securities exchange with broadridge financials with deutsche borser bursa malaysia so there's a bunch of companies that vmware has a long history with and then we are bringing our blockchain technology and our dlt platform uh to bear there right so some of the things just at a high level we all know that you know this these multi-party systems benefit from this shared source of truth and automation of workflows and so on right and that's absolutely true and we must do those pieces i think the pieces that we have to add on when we think about these highly regulated very you know these are very large scale projects that we're talking about right we're talking about um you know multiple terror you know we're talking about not just billions but trillions of dollars worth and we're talking about kind of transaction volumes in the in the hundreds of millions per day and so on right so these are kinds of volumes and performance that both are important as well as kind of what i call the robustness of the solutions so some of the things that we do to bring i'd say confidence that these things can go to production at these high scales is where our focus is and then we do it in a way where we stay true to all those blockchain primitives right the the data integrity and you know being able to ensure that trusted shared source of truth but then overlaying over it privacy which is super important for uh for these regulated industries and businesses generally right performance and efficiency and then you know those areas you know the entire industry is making um some big steps in those areas right but then there are areas that when you think of these regulated environments and there's terabytes of data coming in per day into these systems you have to be able to do things like data pruning how do you kind of take data off the blockchain or the dlt platform in a way that still allows you to have the entire history and provenance but then allows the system to keep up with the performance it needs to keep up with and so on right and there are some very interesting areas like upgrades and um and you know reconfiguration of networks and those who enjoy the technology will know that upgrades are quite unique in the dlt space and how do we do that effectively at scale and do it in a way where the operational burden isn't too much right those are the kinds of areas that we focus on so that our business partners can focus on doing what they need to do to get the businesses up and running and you know ensure that it's supported if anything goes down there is a backup opportunity there there is disaster recovery there is upgradability you know all those things um are are kind of taken care of and they know there's a trusted partner who can do it with them so i'd say those are the kinds of things and um asx for example has just made their chess plus application um this is for the entire post trade clearing and settlement for the entire australian equities market it's been made open for industry-wide testing just end of last month um so that's really some great progress we're seeing there um and this is kind of really when you think of the the scale of these problems that and and and the kinds of things that the that esx has taken taking on it's quite uh quite impressive um deutsche boards as we're really leading the way with the d7 platform kind of you know the conversation around the materialization and you know being able to do that so that there are no physical documents right and then the data integrity and being sure that you don't lose anything and that that it is maintained in the way it is and you know there is no malicious activity that can change things at the core right all those things become um super important and just one last point there maybe is the awareness in the industry that the dlt technology you know while we talk about multi-party systems and we talk about trust there are you know levels even in a permission network where all these are typically permission networks it still you do want to be able to ensure it's not like you don't trust your partners at all but you want to have the infrastructure set up so that mistakes cannot be made right and um i heard this nice sentence about don't be evil versus cannot be evil right you want it to be set up so that you cannot be evil and it's not like anyone wants to be evil but you know it's set up so that you cannot be and all the parties can then transact with each other and the systems are robust and trustworthy right so i think that's really the angle that vmware takes and the role we plan to play in the industry and there's of course i believe collaboration across the technology vendors the market operators and participants as well as the regulators and you know end to end we have to come together right to make things happen and i think it's exciting to see that um there's a lot of good things happening already and based on the good things happening today you know the future then uh comes to us even more quickly right tanya very insightful absolutely i have a million questions um and i'm conscious we do have 15 minutes and still so many things to to to um to discuss and sebastian we'll go back to the wholesale payments piece i'm just picking up on one of the um on one of the questions in the audience and thank you for those who are sending questions in i'm seeing them all i don't think we'll have time to answer them all they're absolutely excellent i'll just pick up the last one because um tanya just made reference to it the question you probably see it is in their opinion banks and financial institutions will only utilize private permission blockchains and not public blockchains and my question to you tanya is what blockchains what platforms are actually using or you know you've actually um worked with both d7 um and the asx and second does it matter that they're not um public because maybe financial institutions with their role and in this in this future financial uh of finance and and the role of of financial institutions in this dlt future maybe they'll be the ones um that would be the gatekeepers for the permissions so how would you be able to give us some insight on that what's your thoughts yes absolutely and i think really from the you know to just bring an analogy into place right when you think about the internet or an or the network of networks right there are a lot of places where there are intranets right where you have a reason to have an intranet but then you connect into an internet and so on so i think if we look at the future there is already so much conversation around interoperability how do networks kind of connect with each other so i i think i see the future anyway as a combination of private permission networks as well as public networks that have very good reason to interoperate in certain areas and very good reason to operate you know in certain reasons separately right so things like i'd even take something like performance there are very unique ways and very unique requirements and performance some require much more throughput some require you know latency to be very low right um and and even with privacy right there is you're going to have um areas where you know different types of privacy makes sense in different contexts and so on right so there's going to be some amount of uniqueness required for particular use cases and particular particular market participant networks and then there are going to be very good reasons why you know some piece of it some critical aspect from a from a data integrity standpoint you know you want to keep the provenance standpoint may require to be put onto a public network in some ways right so i do see that both will continue to coexist and that's my expectation for how things will progress and then going back to the technology perspective you know the technology is very um there are some very basic things that it brings there are even cases where it could become a very you know natural part of infrastructure even for just a single enterprise because you also think of things like you know there is internal threat you want to protect from internal your own employees right so blockchain provides value there as well so it's it's from a technologist's perspective you know there are it goes with the entire gamut um and i do think that's the way the industry is is moving already that you know both the public and the commission networks are starting to kind of come closer to each other which i think is what we need right so fantastic and i think um your comparison with the intranet and the internet is just quick quickly understandable and and a very good take away and i think it's it's one it's a it's a it's a a comparison that i think i definitely i'm going to use personally in the future so thank you so much for that tanya um uh sebastian i'm afraid um there's a question directly um um directed to you so that's okay should we pick that up because i think it's a very interesting as well um someone's mentioned yeah it's all right i didn't see it hopefully it's not too complicated for me no just go ahead i think you see it do you see the need for an inter-banking style dlt solution or do you believe in interoperability between several solutions like r3 hlf and vm vmware and actually that links to another question that someone said as well that why don't we see more consortium style um and we do we do something overseas um amongst banks but nothing really heavily uh towards production so a tough one but you can do it sebastian no no that's that's a great question honestly and some some of the topics um i have in my mind when answering it uh have already been uh touched by tanya as well so uh what i observe at the moment is that uh we have um solitary islands um which are currently evolving and i think this is also worth it that they evolved because this fosters the innovation and if we think about building a one block chain of all financial instruments and all financial services we would have i think the next six or seven years discussions around the governance and so on so forth so this is nothing which uh which will be um easily to be taken up so i think you need these islands to to come up and then um let's see how what the time brings if there is um a solution for the interoperability which will be one solution definitely or if um one or the other uh network um thinks that it might make sense to merge um in a later later time so both directions are possible there so so i think both will also as tanya was just saying coexist one thing which is very important nevertheless is that we think about standardization of specific things um these are for example discussions with ours just recently um having um with regards to self-sovereign identity and um different solutions in europe which might come up with the new year items and self-sown identity based on blockchain backbones and so on so forth standardization is something which we should have an eye on if we in a certain point in future want to somehow either merge some networks or establish interoperability that's that's fantastic sebastian um and yes um and i'm still conscious of the wholesale park payment piece but you just touch there on this sovereign um identity okay and i think that's a very very important point and we'll we'll circle back because it's it's also already picked up in one of the questions as well if i look at the title of our discussion dlt in the future financial institutions i think it's um industry i mean it's it it cannot be is disputed really that there has to be um certainly a move to what now has been discussed or uh named web3 where we actually own that data we we own that digital identity data is there a future or is there a role for financial institutions to help us on that transition how do you see that happening and um in your experience and that's a question for you first of astion but i think also um one um in your role within sentence there and also in last year i know you've all adapted and done pocs and projects of sorts um and i definitely do think there's that there's an element of this transition to potentially a year a time in the future where we in a web 3 environment where we do own it but clearly you know it's not going to happen in two three years and potentially there's a role for financial institutions to fill in that gap to help us get to that point what do you think about that sebastian you want to go first or i'll give you a break and ask one i'll go i'll go first no no problem yeah yeah i mean i i'm witnessing this one in alaska mainly as uh and it connects it's a good segue as well with the with the first with the other question about interoperability and and which type of networks what we have in alaska uh well we are already 600 members we have two networks working operating in production one in quorum and another one in in hyper ledger basu and the and the end game of course is connecting both and into in making them fully interoperable which is not the case nowadays but it will be for the members and the you know the partners not being trapped by the technology being able to work no matter which technological choice you get but what we have here is something that is public permission and why because at a certain level or to a certain extent and after exploring all the you know the beauty of the of the public networks the incumbents and also the challengers in every single sector of the economy when they want to go serious with blockchain which i think is is the way to go now after all this poc phase and and stuff they need predictability and uh they need also accountability and they need to operate on top of networks that are able to sign a service level agreement and if not i mean you if you go in this very democratic and maybe libertarian way of hey guys i mean we're doing networks here on the best effort basis i think you're not getting anywhere and predictability in terms of the cost of meaning transact meeting assets or mining transactions either is through the roof gas is through the roof and uh and any member in on top of a network need to understand the coast and the promise of of blockchain is that this this this amazing technology was going to be more efficient if the gas is super expensive uh we we always make a joke here with uh with a company that that was very obsessed about tracing and providing the provenance of of the of the goods that they were selling but the the traceability was more expensive than that than the good itself yeah and we don't want that of course because the economics have to work now what we are thinking and this is the next evolution of alastria this is the alastria 3.0 is to build a network operator that is neutral that sits very underneath every single actor in the ecosystem and is in charge of exchanging all the all the all the flows all the blockchain flows as it works in internet in the internet in the web one and web two we all have neutral points we don't know that they are there we don't really care as as as as internet users but they're there is changing the traffic of the telcos and over any any data or voice company and and and it works so and in blockchain we don't have that and we need that and this is why we're putting together this this this concept and we would love alastair become the network operator the neutral point at least in spain and why not in europe because it's pretty much needed by anyone that is now into implementation phase we have more than 80 cases into production 80 use cases but we should have you know maybe 800 or 8 000 and this is what we're pursuing um to your question about the future of financial services well financial institutions financial services is abroad is a broad industry so it's not the same when you think of retail banking when you think of payments when you think of wholesale when you think of insurance asset management wealth management what not what i can tell you is that maybe we took it wrong in the beginning now thinking like you know with the perspective of years we started in payments we thought that blockchain was an amazing technology for moving money around the world now that i think of it maybe we wouldn't start from there maybe we would think of hey guys i mean we're better off thinking of uh of course the streamlining processes is always nice yeah you will go like eroding the coast base but you know we should be maybe we should yeah we should be in this next phase more braver and think of building new revenue models uh building new uh business models as as in the in the in the flourishing of internet all the e-commerce platforms although you know the the the the guys uh you know that that went so so strong in this in this market that now are leading you know the so-called gaffas the google amazon facebook apple they built something because they had some infrastructure now in blockchain we don't have this infrastructure once we have it i'm sure that there would there would be more and more players that would come across with the combination of an infrastructure and a clearer regulation very good wow um juan thank you for this um listen i tanya i also wanted to hear from you um sebastian we parked the hotel payments and we won't get a chance to talk about it which means uh danielle and victoria will have to invite us to come back to the next cbc session so we can just talk about that um but um in the next 30 seconds or maybe i'll i will say maybe 60 seconds of danielle and victoria um allow me just before the next the next final discussion what i'm taking away from from our a very brief discussion is there is a future of finance institutions uh when it comes to dlt um i it's a future that actually will mean utilizing the technology um to deliver the data integrity privacy the performance the efficiency the predictability the accountability that the sector would require to do the transition potentially to a web 3 in the future but there's definitely a future for it um that it needs more interoperability that it needs a lot more banks working together financial stations working together yes but obviously all those other things need to happen first um and i love the uh the analogy of the islands and the sebastian gave so there's a lot of islands but somehow we need to to build those bridges that allows for that to work together so i hope there's a good summary of the 45 minutes of of discussion that we've had um we're leaving this discussion for me hungry for more um i learned a lot from from the three of you we've parked a couple of topics um thanks to the audience for all the questions i'm sorry we barely i think managed to answer three out of the many um thank you again tanya sebastian and juan and i do hope that we get to meet again in the evc for continuing our discussions thank you again for all your insights have a good day in time thank you thank you