Welcome & Intro to DeFi Grants

[Music] [Applause] good morning good afternoon good evening everybody my name is kartik one of the co-founders of beef global and welcome to the other grand style summit so all of you are watching this thing on youtube tv this is the live platform we're using for all of the talks today uh keep in mind that as we run the rest of the talks if you have any questions for our panelists you can ask all those questions directly on the chat and also everybody who logs in to the chat will get a op nft token for your participation so be sure to say hi and ask any questions this event is organized by eve global and for those of you who don't know what the global is uh global is an organization with a very simple mission our goal is to get 1000 developers into the web3 ecosystem and we primarily do this by running hackathons and summits so eat online is our biggest event of the year and so far in its global's history we have over 1150 hackers from 77 different countries participating in the hackathon from 19 different time zones on top of that we're doing an incredible set of summits to talk about everything that's happening in our ecosystem we had our first summit last friday which was on nfts and creators today is the avec grand style summit tomorrow will be our governance in dao summit and next week is filled with or the next few weeks are also filled with amazing summits so we're going to cover the compound grants ecosystem on the 7th on october 8th uh we're going to talk about everything that's happening in the world devtools in october 15th is going to be the finale of our hackathon where we're going to talk about all the top projects as well as talk about the future of heath 2. so let's get into the ava grants ecosystem uh we have an amazing setup let's get to stuff lined up today we're going to kick us off with a couple remarks from stani from ave then we're going to go into a panel around just the landscape around how grants are set up in the d5 ecosystem then trios is going to talk about the feature of avec grand style and then we're going to talk about what does it mean to successfully receive a grant from the ave ecosystem and we're going to have a showcase on some of the incredible projects that have been funded by the ave grants program and they're going to talk about what they're working on and how you may get involved and then lastly we'll have shreyas uh give some closing remarks on how they are thinking about the future of a grant and will be a wrap so before we kick off with our very first talk i want to welcome stani who is the founder and ceo of ave to share some opening remarks on the future of the ave ecosystem so without further ado let's welcome stani thank you kartik for the great inter introduction and it's uh amazing that we have been able to have this opportunity to organize uh the grants of a groundstall summit and i think it global has done a lot of uh good work in terms of like expanding the developer ecosystem and culture around uh not just in ethereum but in the web3 space in general and the other grounds dao summits is is quite important especially like because like the objective of bronze tao is to propagate uh culture and especially the developer culture around the different ecosystems that we have in uh not just decentralized finance but in that tree and especially the other ground styles uh mission is is pretty much to propagate this culture within the other ecosystem and grants can be anything essentially there they can be a small uh pull request into current infrastructure that there is in in the the protocol uh the the the front end that is uh community governed at the moment or any other kind of a tooling that relates into the uh ecosystem or it can be just something that benefits uh beyond what uh ava is today and i would say kind of like the vision for everything is that uh these protocols and all the tools and everything that is created in open uh source fashion uh should be owned and governed by the community and should be something that will help and inspire uh newcomers and other developers to build new things and also educate themselves and learn more about what is decentralization why it's important and and why we why we need to uh nurture this uh culture and decentralization especially important because uh not for the uh perspective of being able to build things uh anywhere from any part of the board and contribute code but also being able to participate and govern these protocols because if we don't actively govern the protocols essentially we lose the power of decentralization which means having a wider consensus on protocols that in the future will uh be maybe servicing uh hundreds of millions or even billions of users so uh this is kind of a short introduction on on uh the of the crown style summit and during this summit it's important uh that we are able to give you as much as context on on what our uh what our these ground styles are actually doing and what kind of uh grants you can actually apply what kind of grants you can apply for different kinds of projects that you're building how to contribute uh and how to find also friends to help you to contribute into and we will delve into multiple uh grant style programs uh and that's about it amazing well thank you so much for that interest ani and i think this is a perfect segue for our very first panel so for this i'm going to introduce four amazing people stony from ave who's already here we'll invite robert lesner from compound neo boris from the union swap grand secret system and moderating this chat will be imran from d5 lines and uh we'll kind of cover what the entire d5 grant landscape looks like and some of the lessons learned so without further ado let's welcome all of our amazing panelists and let them uh kick this off awesome thank you so much kartik um and so i i was a part of the grand obvious grand style and i've been interviewing many of the applicants there and what i've realized is that uh many people don't really know how to interact with grant styles so maybe you know we'll start with could you talk a bit about the importance of establishing a grand style and uh how has that been so far from a process perspective and maybe we could start with you robert yeah so i think the importance is extremely high um it doesn't matter whether it's of a compound every new protocol being built by community members once a protocol gets to a certain size um the number of contributors starts to scale far beyond the initial team that created the protocol or you know application and so in order to organize this at some point you have to have you know a different type of structure um you know one approach that you know some organizations have tried is having you know a central company or foundation organized grants but i think for a crypto native protocol like ave or compound or maker dow what i think will work best is actually having a decentralized process to award grants to the community and there's a blurry set of lines between you know ongoing participants contributors you know rfp you know and bounty hunters but at the end of the day you know if you have a global and decentralized community of people contributing to a protocol the easiest way to organize that is with you know a dow type structure um in which you know applications and participants can interact directly with dao and there's not you know decentralized bottlenecks to its success embarrassed or stan if you have anything else to add to that no i totally agree uh you know uh just the other day i was talking to other uh units of grant program uh committee members and we came to the conclusion that it's better to have more people trying and failing at things than you know to have five people executing flawlessly uh crypto right now it's all about innovation different ideas and yeah we you just need to include as many people as possible because you know if they if many people try uh enough times uh there will be great ideas uh coming uh and that's that's what these uh projects need i think yeah i could i could add up pretty much i agree i agree what uh robert and boris said and i think the interesting part is is especially the fact that the founding teams usually try to kind of like kick start an idea uh a build a a protocol and usually protocols aren't uh actually monoliths they're just something that inspires others to build new things on top uh or improve the protocol uh create additional features and and essentially giving a bird to something that that has ongoing uh development and this is nothing new in terms of like open source development this is how linux has developed uh until this date i think what's interesting is that uh we're just living in a time where now essentially we can you know open uh open source open uh kind of like an open system and then transparent way actually contribute into financial protocols that actually bring a lot of efficiency transparency into the uh financial system and at the same time uh now it's possible to anyone kind of any part of the world just to contribute and uh improve this this financial system and i think like what's especially important is that uh what the grand styles and all these programs are trying to achieve is that there's strong enough community to being able to uh take a uh community-owned project and being able to do the operations that is involved and also continue building and it's not an easy task because the space is very young uh meaning that we don't have enough necessarily professionals and and people that can help and it takes a bit of time to get into a level where there's sufficient amount of community developers that are actually uh uh taking care of the code base but it's a process and end of the day and this is what the grant programs is all about and also tooling because if you go a couple of years back building uh d5 or any kind of like a ethereum based application and smart contracts uh wasn't as simple and easy as it is today so definitely tooling is something we always can uh put more effort into and and have more plans boris you mentioned something which was quite intriguing which is um you know getting as grants as to many people as possible there they have a really good idea uh previously in the web 2 world um you know if people had an idea they actually had to go out and get venture funding for it but now those ideas could come to life um and bring in products much faster into the ecosystem so i guess like what were some learnings on that regard like um you mentioned like uh giving grants to a bunch of teams like how has that been how has been the reaction to that and has how has it helped you to swap in this regard yeah it helped immensely uh for example uh the tooling was mentioned so unisop grant funded for example in first four months we funded two python sdks and you can see that some of the developers and builders prefer one while the others prefer the second depending on their needs or how they're used you know to code the you know the first one is much simpler it doesn't offer as many possibilities so people use it for some quick projects or like a bot or something well the other one it gives you full control and then if they want to go really serious with their project they'll use this one so yeah you know uh we kind of think that uh enthusiasm uh is more important than the actual thing that people are working on because if you have enthusiasm you might you know spread it around to people that have really good ideas uh and we want to uh encourage uh that enthusiasm um and yeah it it in at the end it's important what you're working on but uh even if it's a small project we welcome you to the of grant program family you join our slack you join the discussions you can contribute to other projects uh yeah we had a couple of members like that uh one member was working on a really simple twitter bot and then he joined all kinds of different discussions and projects opening pull requests documenting stuff and yeah we just want to reward this enthusiasm and you know the correct ideas will come along eventually if you have enough people really working and thinking about the protocol awesome thank you um so there's another area that that i learned from this conversation which is accessibility um incredibly like it's incredible that you know all of the people all over the world can get access to this grant whereas you know previously it was very hard to get funding how has that shaped the ecosystem and developer ecosystem for all the protocols and what have you seen that work really well and maybe standing out i can start with you well i think grant's program that they aren't that's super new i mean italian foundation had their grants program and i what i see it's interesting is that kind of like it definitely uh sparked some innovation and then gave some incentives to to create and contribute so definitely it's a way to to kind of kick start the ecosystem and before the community grounds program ava had its own like uh internal grounds program and i think we've funded over 50 different grants so i think like over a period of time like this decentralized like dao based grants program will just expand but also like it might speed up a lot of the development and actually maybe projects that normally you wouldn't necessarily want to do from kind of like economical perspective for example it might be tooling or something that is very valuable for the ecosystem but maybe it's it doesn't have some sort of like a uh you know protocol perspective or a product perspective but it's just like very valuable so definitely like in those cases like it they are very helpful uh programs uh robert or reverse if you have anything add to that yeah i think the thing that's magical about it is that you can have people participate that otherwise would not be working in d5 um you can have people participate with part of their time you know you can have people participate in ways that they didn't think were possible before and i think you know an open program has the opportunity to grow the sort of ecosystem of you know d5 contributors in ways that you know weren't imaginable even a couple years ago i think that's really cool um one of the things that you see you know in these grants ecosystems are contributors that are also learning new skills in order to be able to contribute um and i think you know in a way this is kind of like you know the new age business school or coding boot camp in that you know you're having people you know growing their you know in some ways professional careers with protocols and this is entirely new what you know i find really exciting about that is that you know you can have people who are anonymous or you know known and reputable entities and everything in between contributing and it just leads to such a different like format of participation than anything we've seen in you know traditional software traditional finance and traditional markets this is entirely new and the way that you contribute is entirely new and that's really cool and i think it's going to evolve you know i think there's going to be best practices that emerge um and things that change and i think you know five years from now the way you know a grants organization works might be a little bit different but the core of it is just so novel that i think you know this is the future yeah good burst yeah i just wanted to add one thing so uh like grants program are always doors are always open but when giving out grants we we are really careful you know to not do any kind of king making for example uh so one good example with uniswap was when v3 was launched you know then you had an opportunity to move your liquidity around to maximize the profits and we had a lot of you know projects uh sending application for a grant and we thought that there's already such a big financial incentive that we shouldn't really uh you know do something in this space this early maybe later you know if there will be some contract audit something like that that then that's okay but uh you don't want to get involved in things like that you know to skew the open sourceness and you know promote somebody who maybe is just lucky that you chose him uh because he was early so yeah the grand doors are always open for contribution but when giving out grants you need to be a bit careful with what you're saying with that grant that you're giving out so it it takes a lot of thinking and yeah you know the projects that follow the ethos of your core project is uh really important so decentralization and open source so it's not so simple with giving out grants maybe there are some great projects that you think will do great but they are not good candidates for a grant so that's that's just the detail that i wanted to point out i guess on that note what what have been some what are some of the challenges that you that each of the dials are going through and uh and how are you thinking about uh you know either finding the next possible solution or is just just learning challenges we'll just learn to learn a little bit more about that i'll start just because i have a very visible example um so you know yesterday there was a new proposal that was um launched in the compound community that actually had a bug in it um and it led to a lot of comp being distributed to users that weren't expecting it and didn't you know deserve it or you know it was basically a bug that you know sent lots of this um you know stockpile of comment for user distribution to random users um and this actually was a proposal that was created you know specifically to um solve an rfp that was put up by you know the compound grants community and you know i i think this highlights the fact that like you know you have a much wider surface area of development and contributors um you know and errors can occur um they can be deliberate you know we saw in sushi swap a few weeks ago um a contributor you know was malicious and deliberately tried to undermine you know the protocol and you can have accidents um and the larger the surface area of public contribution the more risk that you um add to the process just from uh things that can go wrong perspective and i don't think this is a bad thing i think you know long term the more contributors you have the faster you can move and the larger you can grow but i do think it highlights the fact that as you start to include you know sensitive work into um a grants process that you know the you know seriousness of you know additional layers of security also have to increase as well um and so i just think you know you know this highlights the sort of like technical risks of a grants process for changes to a core protocol or a critical system whether it's a front end or vertical systems built entirely on top compartmentalize the risk you know much better if you're incentivizing hey build this module you know this is purely on top of the protocol that can't you know add any risk to the underlying system that's different but when you start to touch the core systems and enable the community to touch the core systems it changes the sort of you know threshold of risk i can maybe add that uh i i definitely agree like that's that's also like something that uh scares me a lot uh in the sense like what like how the the grounds that that are like kind of like core contributions into the core code or anything close or let's say into the user interface that uh kind of affect affect the whole uh process and the either the application the smart contract like how it will be secure and and blockchain blockchain practically kills confidence in the sense that it's just even if you review things multiple times uh there might be something there uh that the uh the the contributor didn't see or the viewers didn't see and it happens because it's pretty much humans are coding and that's that's one of the things and what amazes me is still uh and what i think is a big challenge is that there is a lot of funding available uh for pretty much any kind of like a code contribution and improvement but i i think the the market isn't yet there where you know there's enough people coming in uh with expertise enough diligent and you know there is processes in place where there is multiple audits and and this this kind of like procedures to contribute very safely uh the code and i think like the match is is between like having the the funding is there but then there isn't enough like uh actual contributors and and processes in place and how to like get these two parts uh closer together and i think that's kind of like a challenge that we see a bit everywhere now yeah it's almost like um you know you have this incredible uh diverse group of developers that are actively supporting a protocol in so many different aspects and it's just putting a little bit more process structure just uh making a better understanding of how the milestones are hit and supporting the protocols moving forward and there's just gonna be a lot of learnings behind that as well so robert thank you for sharing that um so i guess from this perspective if uh you know from now till like a year from now to two years from now let's say um what are some of the areas that you'd like to provide grants for obviously there's people that are building tooling you know uh protocols that can help connect with or hook into uh you know of a compound or unit swap but ultimately like a year or two year from now what are some success stories that you'd like to hear based on the grants you get today uh boris you could go first uh yeah well uh for me personally i do a lot of community and people engagement stuff and my goal is to lower the barrier of entry to you know participate with some kind of a crypto project as low as possible so you don't need to have advanced solidity skills to be able to feel like you're contributing to a project and to feel part of the project so yeah that's that's like my main goal that anybody who decides two years from now like this uniform thing looks interesting i have this set of skills uh can i somehow you know contribute to it and get rewarded for it that answer is mostly yes and that that's that's one of my personal goals uh uh to be honest uh other than that um is just you know to make the if there will be a grant program in two years that uh it gets within itself more decentralized because right now you have a committee of maybe five to six people that yeah everybody is really careful with reviewing applications thinking about them weighing all the options but you know maybe make it more open so people from the outside can also do some kind of reviews and things like that just to come up with this process of how the the cryptocurrency grant program should look like you know in the open source world but it's so early that that we are still uh trying to find the right approach and right now it's not perfect it obviously is not uh so yeah stanley if you want to go next and i'll caveat by saying like i saw a really cool submission the other day uh where someone wanted to build out a mobile app for ave which i thought was quite interesting so um but go ahead oh yeah i mean that that was one of the coolest ones yeah because you know it's just like it showcases uh what you know robert said that you know you don't need necessarily like to be a smart contract developer and contribute but you know you can just start what you actually know and go from there and learn and and something like a mobile wallet is very good example where uh you can contribute from kind of like web 2 perspective and just like connect the web 3 components and that that is how why like i i've seen like in the future you know the the more there is like long hanging fruits the more we get developers in because it's easier to make contributions into something that is less complex also because like many of the newcomers might uh contribute like on a on their spare time and they might be working in a tech company on on as full time i i think uh in terms of like what what could be successful uh idea is that we have actually people uh developers might be community members that are working for dao's directly but also working working in a way in an inclusive way where they're contributing to different kinds of dials so let's say we have a developer that is making uh code contributions into the uh compound ecosystem makes the same way into the ave ecosystem maker ecosystem and uni-swap ecosystem and we have like this kind of like a inclusive way of building these protocols uh together like that would be like very successful uh path in terms of like how you could participate in the future as a community member and i think that's the way to learn uh more and kind of like not just learn more technology and and but learn also ecosystems and culture yeah that's actually an interesting point um because we've i've seen you know many applicants that come in that actually you know bring in like create like dashboards for ava but they also do that for compound and others as well so it could be really cool to see something where you know we'll see a contributor that's actu actively supporting many protocols and there could be some sort of like shared incentives of like supporting this from a grant's perspective uh but robert feel free to add yeah i i just want to echo what everybody else said um strong points um if uh you know let's let's talk about today um and we're seeing a lot of excitement around grants and and a lot of cool tooling and things like that what would you like to see like if if you had to you know divvy up all the kind of sectors that we could support whether it's tooling whether it's d5 or protocols they're hooking into our into the protocols um and other miscellaneous services um what area is most important for each protocol like if you have to give it your like six months i know i've seen like compounds rfps and i think that's a really good way to signal to the community of like exactly what you want built um but like if you had to give your six-month goal of like what would you like done that hasn't been done yet what would that be um ultimately we're in front of you know hundreds of developers today and so uh this could be a good way for them to think about what they should be building next [Music] i'll start just i think it's relatively different from other protocols and i think at the end of the day every protocol has its own goals its own you know purposes like a great example is uniswap is really looking for an ecosystem around you to swap you know at compounds we've really spent a lot of time starting to push the community for forward and developing the core protocol itself um you know what i'd like to see in six months is you know a whole you know decentralized team of developers that are able to make improvements to the core compound protocol you know add new functionality um and you really upgrade um this system that you know has been operating for a really long time and you know it's very focused on you know the core and not you know peripheral systems built on top or alongside of it um we've dabbled you know as a community and you know other approaches but i think what you know compound is focused on is really core development and decentralizing that yeah so maybe i can continue so robert is right uh uniswap is not looking for core contribution it's more looking for everything on the outside uh and the you know the weakest point of the whole uniform project it's the unisop app which is only centralized parts of the uni swap and people uh you know there were some bad experiences where there were scams you know uh scammy deployments of an app and i was just like for the the core uniform developed interface for unit swap to be you know less dominant and that there are suitable alternatives so we get decentralized at this part as well you know smart contracts they can't be changed anybody can deploy a new pool or make a swap but this one core piece is still somewhat centralized and i would like to see that you know changed in the future yeah i would say that now in in the arab ecosystem i mean it's pretty much up to the like other community to to decide what like how you know the whole uh the community developers will structure themselves and and like there is code contributions all the time but kind of like what path to take uh i personally like would love to see maybe uh also more core contributions but also like uh you know building some of the parts uh uh on top that is part of the the core court but expansion but also like you know the ability to improve the whole system in general is something very interesting because essentially uh what's interesting about let's say of a and compound is that they are uh you know systems that are running completely autonomously and at the same time uh there is so-called like a collateral uh element there so so these are like very much protocols that require a lot of expertise and in a very very strong community to uh uphold and i think like this is something we're looking uh as well like how we can make it possible that we get core contributions and and how to establish especially how to establish a process where these contributions can be uh some diligent way uh reviewed and and uh mitigated from risk perspective so this is something that i'm personally looking into and of course tooling i think tooling is important especially if it helps like all of the project across the tree now in the process of giving a grant um you know today where the way it works usually is that someone applies for a grant they get interviewed uh and then they'll know whether or not they'll get a grant some may do uh some may get payments up front some they have like a daiko model where they'll get payments based on milestones um what what has worked and what hasn't worked um and what would you like to see moving forward from that side and just to explain like daikon model is a model that was proposed by vitalik uh which is more or less kind of like milestone based incentives and so yeah what are some models that you think may work for this and and i've seen you know pros and cons for both well i can quickly jump in so there is definitely like taiko model is interesting because you know i think uh the issue why daiquez hasn't picked up maybe is because of the name and association to uh icos a bit but you know i seen for example in the avagochi ecosystem they have a daikon it's interesting like how kind of like there's like a tap where you know there's monthly payment for the uh genesis team there to develop the the the metaverse but at the same time nothing stops stops to create another kind of like a tap to develop some other part of the ecosystem uh so i definitely agree that the milestones are a good way to to uh to to compensate but also i mean if there is trust involved and you know contributors are committing into the uh ecosystem what what can be done is just like a lump sum payments i also like the ability to stream payments and i i think we've been looking into super fluid and i i don't know probably probably can explain more but i think compound has this uh streaming as well going on yeah we have a system internal to the compound um protocol which looks very similar to that which does streaming where um you can have basically a streaming comp grant and there's obviously external tools which might be long-term and easier approach because it doesn't have to become part of the core protocol but um compounds um comp governance system can stream comp to contributors and there's i believe two active uh streaming grants to contributors currently yeah for unisop the different models work differently and like there's not the right approach i think it all depends on the situation and what the project is but uh just today we had like a wave five announced of the uniform grants and you'll see like four or five continuations of a project so we agreed on the feature set for the initial grant and then that grant went great and a lot of success around it so we continued support of it so it's somewhat like a dico model with milestones but not exactly and yeah to be honest in the uni swap grant program uh the the money was never like the the most important part we have a lot of part-time contributors i think most of them or you know just integrating uni swap into uh uh already existing products so we support that partly so uh not many people's lives you know and food on the table depends on the units of grant program so like the funding part was was never really uh an issue it was more about choosing the right grants and giving the opportunities to the right people and involving the right people in the uni swap grants great thank you so much i'm gonna pass it over to kartik uh he has uh maybe one or two questions that he likes to ask the audience so i'll pass it over to cardi awesome uh that was an amazing discussion i think uh there's been a handful of questions and some kind of very common themes that have kind of brought up on the chat so i'll just kind of condense all that into uh a two-part question the first one is just uh overall how do people find out about each of your grant programs and and uh what can you tell about that just as a quick pitch and how people can learn more uh the second part of that question is um when people hear about ecosystem grants they mostly assume that uh they have to kind of contribute to the technical piece of it is that true for each of your grant programs or what are some other ways people can get involved or do they always have to kind of work on something smart contract related so could just clarify or maybe expand into like how the program is set up like is it based on a list of things that you want people to do or people can pick what they want to do or and all that stuff around it so just say a quick uh but also slightly detailed pitch on each of your programs and then maybe we can start off with uh stanley yeah i think like kind of i would like uh start by following you know the uh other grants twitter handle and just like look into updates and what's going on in the in in in in the space and and also uh maybe join the telegram group where uh there's other peers looking into uh building various different kinds of things and and discord as well but um essentially you don't always need to build like uh specifically anything technical uh grounds can be also like educational uh it can be anything else i personally i'm not involved in the background style uh or the grants itself uh but this is how like the process works from from what i have seen and uh yeah i think what's important is that uh not taking any stress of these grants of course like if you propose something like propose in a way that you uh commit in building it and and being as kind of like realistic as possible in uh describing on the time and and what it takes to build and also you can post it in a way that you know if you need more people but you're alone uh maybe maybe there's a way to find friends to help on build from from the community so this is actually very cool way to to make friends as well so i would suggest that as a road awesome maybe boris uh can uh comment next yeah during this uh panel i already mentioned that i personally tried to keep the barrier at off entrance the lowest possible um so one of the like the lowest barrier of entrance is every two weeks we have a community call and we're always looking for pull-up designs so yeah uh like design a pop-up for us we're not really strictly let you do your own thing your own style and you get you know to be the part of the units of dao of course there's like a more complex stuff building smart contracts uh i don't know the testing infrastructure all those good things but for example if you see something cool that maybe other d5 project has and you notice that uni swap doesn't have it you can just say you know send an application say this looks really cool for ave or compound so i can create you this thing for uni swap so you can steal ideas for example a little bit and yeah there is no rule to it [Music] if we think that the the greater uh you know community will benefit from this we will support it you don't need to be uh only selected developer and know the web3 so that that's my answer to it amazing and i guess we'll close this out with robert yeah so anyone can get involved in compound grants a lot of the um outlined work right now is technical in nature but there's always a lot of opportunity for those who are not technical to participate um whether it's in analyzing markets or interest rate models or you know playing on the economic side you know creativity is welcomed um you know you can see a list of rfps and you know opportunities that are available on compoundgrants.org and there's also an active discord channel devoted specifically to brands in the compound discord and you know fundamentally if you're interested in participating you know defy is an incredibly welcoming place there's no right and wrong approach i think we're all figuring this out as a community and as a society and as a series of t5 protocols together so if you're excited check out compound check out ave check out units bob check out all the other programs that are out there you'll find something exciting and you know hopefully a really good opportunity to participate and contribute that's an amazing note to end on and uh yeah i think the important thing is that everybody's figuring this out live and uh that just requires a lot of experimentation so um i think just getting involved helps you figure out what the right model is so that's kind of where we're at so uh thank you so much for that amazing discussion and uh thank you so much imran for facilitating and uh with that we are ready to move on to our next talk [Music] [Applause]