DLT & Crypto for Financial Services

[Music] thank you so much so uh good afternoon europe hello world good morning usa and america and uh good evening uh asia and welcome to to our panel discussion so i will be uh i will be the moderator i'm roman roikini i'm head of innovation at society general in luxembourg i'm also blockchain leader for society general group so today the theme of our panel will be crypto and dlt in financial services so it's definitely a very broad topic we have a lot of discussion around the topic on the on the on the on the first end i would say crypto so as you have seen the crypto industry is booming since uh six months if you just take the example of the capitalization of the crypto it's about 2.1 trillion of a us dollar if you are taking the example of the capitalization of bitcoin for the crypto it's about a bit more than one trillion of us dollars so it is equivalent of the four banks around the world we see a lot of projects with the totalbox digital currency and the difference table so crypto the crypto uh the crypto world is definitely booming on the other hand we have the blockchain a lot of premises a lot of application in the financial industry 45 of the different applications of the blockchain and the dlt it is for the financial services and we have seen a clear change in the last two years with the development of the security token offering so blockchain is definitely here and it is definitely here to stay so uh to discuss about the different topic about crypto and dlt i have with me four experts uh and i suggest to to make a quick introduction of yourself your name your company and your focus of blockchain so i suggest to to start with our lady thank you thank you lauren yes so good afternoon all my name is kim schneider and i work as a blockchain specialist at rabobank in our blockchain acceleration lab we make sure our organization is up to speed with blockchain and crypto and we help in many projects on the blockchain part the lab already exists for five years now and in the beginning we were only presenting to our colleagues and exploring the technology but nowadays our colleagues are also coming to us and those who have to find us for support on their propositions and see if blockchain can add value we do lots of different projects from identity to safe store for example your kofit credentials still tokenization where we explore the possibilities for carbon credits and at the moment uh i am focused on cryptocurrencies we do not offer uh cryptocurrency services at the moment but i'm making sure that we are up to speed with what's happening around the world also like laurent already mentioned there's happening a lot new regulation is coming and also looking with pleasure to what the colleague banks in the usa are doing now with providing custody services for crypto assets i chair our crypto boards where we discuss together with compliance legal risk and also our kyc departments crypto related topics we create frameworks guidance for the organization and yes of course at the moment our clients and colleagues have lots of questions since the market is rising and the institutional investment is growing so there's becoming more and more work for me which i think is a good step forward thank you so much kim uh seymour simon head of digital assets at deutsche group uh i'm looking after our like activities around the digital asset and the dlt space um we have done some projects where we already launched solution live for example hqlix in luxembourg that is productive since 2019 for collateral management service based on dlt we are also invested here in funds dlt and having some activities there and we have just announced a project that we finished together actually with gft so david as well around the settlement of a security transaction on dlt that is actually leveraging and connecting to the existing settlement world so to be precise t2s our current focus is to build a infrastructure for digital assets actually um that we want to integrate within our existing tech stack and also to leverage our existing capabilities as a group in terms of access to liquidity pools and also providing regulatory services to our clients we investigate crypto we have the possibility by our cash markets uh team actually to invest already in crypto via etns so you have an issuer of an exchange-traded note that you can invest into by the classical roads and we're also looking how we might have opportunities for more physical trading let's see thank you thank you very much for having us my name is darko pilaf i'm based in zurich in switzerland and i'm working at digital asset where i'm on the one head heading our swiss office and then the other i'm the director of client experience um engineering which means i'm kind of straddling the business in the and the tech world we at the digital asset have created demo which is a smart contacting language as well as kind of an application platform a development framework that allows you to both capture and then also execute multi-party um workflows multi-party transactions and they you can execute them on a number of underlying infrastructures um a number of different uh blockchains dlts but also centralized databases for example which allows you to create a kind of a system of records that spans across multiple business units multiple organizations um and uh still retains all the the relevant properties that you would want to have like privacy data integrity and uh things like that thank you so much david so i'm david crane um i am the global dlt lead um and crypto lead at gft um gft our multinational um technology services provider uh based out of stuttgart but we're now active and worldwide um we basically provide traditional um technology services as well as innovation uh based services such as blockchain and and ai and cloud and iot lots of lots of areas that we that we investigate into um we obviously do um quite a bit of pure investigation but you also have a big focus on apply technologies how we can actually make these technologies um really useful for our clients and taking things um from that next step um from just being in the lab when we have our own innovation labs to actually are using them in production with our clients um i i'm originally from uh london but i'm based in barcelona in spain and that's where our kind of like innovation lab kind of started but now it's spread across the whole of the uh the whole of the gft group and we've been involved in blockchain and dlt um uh uh sp in the blockchain and dlc space uh since about 2014. so we've done about maybe around 30 projects in total um of which of them various of those have actually gone to production um and we're supporting them as well in productive services so we've been we've been in and around this area for quite a long time um and uh it's been uh it's it's been quite uh quite a wild ride and especially now just echo what uh kim has said right now is such an amazing time to be part of this revolution that seems to be happening in the crypto space it's incredible how much traction this is getting in both the crypto and uh the kind of like more traditional kind of dlc space so so really excited to be here and and to be talking about this so thank you very much guys uh i can see that we are a very diverse group from spain to switzerland to germany to netherland a bit of uk david myself a bit of french and luxembourg diverse also in terms of competencies we have the bank with kim and myself we have the tech providers we have the infrastructure so it will be a very rich so guys i i want to to start with the first question related to to the crypto asset so bitcoin ethereum sort digital currency stablecoin uh first question for for for the bank kim what is your opinion regarding crypto assets it was a bad word four five months ago has it changed uh do you believe there is a future for bitcoin in the financial industry do you believe that cbdc will be uh definitely the catalyst so what is the position of your bank and the financial industry uh about the crypto but generally speaking yes i always think as a bank we have a really yeah negative yeah not our own standpoint but they see us as cryptocurrency or crypto asset haters to say so and um yeah i really think that's not true already from the beginning our blockchain team is also exploring cryptocurrencies um but because we are a gatekeeper and we have our duty of care as a bank we need to be careful in how to offer those products where crypto assets are involved but from the bank's perspective and also from my perspective we see lots of opportunities i think the institutional interest of course uh helps on that part um as well as changing regulations in the u.s um and i also saw george shebang is going to offer a tokenization platform or custody services in germany and of course also there the law changed last year so that's really helpful and in the netherlands at this moment yeah regulation is quite quite strict but does that not mean that we're not looking into it and that we are embracing those new initiatives and that we see lots of possibilities we're also working together with our payments team for example and looking into the world of central bank digital currency stable coins what's yeah what is it and what can it mean for our business model do we have a role there do we want a role there um and yeah since last year of course also in the space of decentralized finance um which is uh really uh a booming market at the moment so yeah i definitely see a future i think banks need to figure out what their role might be if they want to take a role in there and yeah from my personal point of view i hope so and i really see a role for example also in providing custody services i think that might be a really nice role for a bank to add on in this area thank you kim i fully agree with you and indeed we see a lot of corporate mainly in u.s entering in this field like a tesla like a microstrategy like a lot of big fish also in the asset management like blackrock and definitely we need to understand to assess and after to to act in a in a crypto world so my my question will be for for simon now we spend billions in infrastructure in the last 10 15 years what will be your role in the future in a crypto world i think the role will definitely change yeah when we had some some projects what we always saw is basically you have this wish to disintermediate and that's completely fair because ultimately efficiency efficiencies will only be gained if we really get to the fashion of bilateral transactions right so that is not up for discussion however we have also seen that if you simply take away the intermediary the responsibilities do not go away yeah and i think that's that's quite interesting then to see that people just say for example we had a transaction i was back at commerce bank where we had a direct issuance and direct placement of a corporate to another corporate and then they asked like who's giving us the price yeah nobody will give you the price because that was something that has been previously done by the intermediate yeah and so i guess to be honest there will still be services that are of value and this can be for example the connectivity to liquidity pools it can be the provision of data for example of reference data it can be something like pricing efficient matching algorithms and stuff like that and we have to translate these services and responsibilities into a distributed fashion actually yeah we currently have central systems yeah if you look at part of our core business is the csd the central security register and now we have to see how this would translate theoretically because legally we cannot yet but if it will change how can we translate this into a distributed environment yeah and provide a role of what we call and already have a life for hq x as a trusted third party to exactly provide these services from an independent party that is not trading on its own infrastructure and this is where i see our position and also our responsibility because we currently have these connection of markets and i think it beneficially for for everybody if we could leverage that even for the crypto world thank you uh simon darko and david do you have any opinion about the crypto asset and what did you observed in the market go ahead okay so so the funny thing is that gft um up until let's say maybe about three years ago we were not we really didn't touch crypto at all because we you know the majority of our clients are on the or on the banking side and the regulation simply was wasn't there in the majority of the world what we've seen in the last three years is that actually institutional crypto has become a reality and that's because of the changes in regulation at a local level and at a and at a potentially europe-wide level as well and um in in in the future as well so obviously on the crypto side then you've got local regulations like you have in germany and then mika for example for stable coins and all of this is and and as kim said before in in america as well they're kind of catching up in terms of their regulations um uh too so that's what that's meant is that in the last three years um we've gone from not really providing cryptocurrency services to being major players in this in this area um so it's been something that's really had you know boom it hasn't been something that we've been doing for the past you know six seven years really we focus very heavily on dlt and then crypto kind of came later when it was when it was more or less legal um so that's so that's one thing and then another thing i suppose is that the projects that we've we've got i suppose two big projects we've worked on so one of them is custodian and so we were the technology technology partner that helped to build customer digits um and obviously that's a great um platform it can be used for the custody of of digital assets a variety of different digital assets hot and cold wallets it's got security benefits it's um and it's got a lot of benefits in terms of getting off the ground very quickly so if you want to be able to get your crypto bank off the bout of the ground very quickly or you want to be an institutional investor and you want to get that off the ground then you can um then um it's it's a good accelerator for you but um and then the other uh big project that we did it was basically um with a tier one bank where we built the crypto exchange um that they've uh released into production and from the ground up so we were using a hardware uh hsm effectively and that was specifically designed for this purpose um from a third party provider and then we you know we help them build um it from the ground up the two the thing that these two projects had in common was that um a custom digit in switzerland and this um this tier one bank in the uk they both went hand in hand with the regulators so they were working every every day to make sure that they were the first people to to release into production environments in their countries and i think that's that's been really uh really successful it's men that have been very successful projects it's meant that they've been out they've been able to actually provide a real product rather than um just kind of like sneak up like a kind of preview to something uh they're actually providing these services now in production thank you david dako so if you if you think about kind of what cryptocurrencies aimed at the core to do was to a certain extent to to behave like cash to have certain properties similar to cash um and uh while kind of they are gaining momentum and kind of going in that direction and also with the optic of of entities like tesla that you mentioned before um i still think there is a fair way to go and there are a couple of technical um issues that are that are preventing this kind of as an uptake as just cash but also uh one big problem is also um that um that it's still very volatile so it cannot really be used as a store of of value right now because uh you never know kind of when you look at at uh your account how much is going to be there compared to yesterday so uh this is kind of one of the of the of the issues that are out there um but what is i think very important to see is um how the the the cryptocurrencies and and blockchain in this entire revolution as uh david has mentioned it before um has kind of accelerated and spurred the the thinking around various other topics uh for example uh cbdc as you mentioned and um kind of you also ask what we're seeing out in the market and from the various conversations that we had with the multiples with with different central banks um it seems that there is a huge interest in in central bank digital currency but it also seems that they won't be kind of in the form of cryptocurrency as in better asset and and things like that because of course you're then running into issues of regulation etc but things that the central bank definitely wants to uh needs to be able to control so um i think there is a lot of exciting development um and also kind of um generational progress between kind of from from cryptocurrencies to um to other assets to uh digital assets and uh central bank digital currency um it's it's really very interesting i one thing that they also wanted to echo but what simon mentioned before around the this intermediation i think this is a very important point um that um our stance or in general is that um all the entities that are providing valuable services are still going to be required they're still you still want all those services because they are valuable um so so these entities definitely won't be disintermediated um the only entities that won't have much of a role to play are the ones that are making them benefit they're making a profit from inefficiencies and taking um taking advantage of those efficient uh inefficiencies so if we get rid of those inefficiencies the the profit um goes down for them so i think this is the only place we're going to see this intermediation thank you darko and indeed uh we see that 80 percent of the central central bank around the world have a project regarding cbdc and it's mainly uh the wall sale instead of the retail uh cryptocurrency so now um going back so taxonomy is quite clear we have on one side we have the cryptocurrency we had already such discussion around cryptocurrency we have the utility token and what is very exciting for the financial industry is definitely the security token and we have seen since um two years a lot of projects regarding the security token and part of society general we have a digital platform called the society general forge an internal startup now it's a it's a company owned by society where we have made issuing of bonds in a public blockchain but my question it will change definitely the way we do a business in the future simon in term of infrastructure will it change will the infrastructure be ready in this case and i think you have a question not a question and not from the audience you are not in wall street you are in a dodge boxer you are not the world for wall street i will get some issues here internally if that's the impression yeah no no we're good um but to your question um what we are looking at when when we have now and we are actually discussing the architecture of this future infrastructure for digitized really within our broad architectural teams so it's really getting part of the corporate architecture that's currently the goal and what we see definitely in this kind of architecture and i think darko can can relate here as well is that flexibility is absolutely key because you have currently a highly uh heterogenic landscape of systems and and different networks yeah where securities are being managed and so what we see is that we want to be able to connect to to public chains in general as well yeah similarly as we have to connect to private chains and of course we also have our own network and how will we connect that the connection will be basically through the custody function because an asset that lives on public chain or on another permission chain is only living on this chain you cannot pull it off you cannot pull bitcoin of the bitcoin blockchain it's not possible but you can manage the assets through the custody function and many people see the custody function rather as the only key management which i think is falling short but we see it rather as a connectivity component so if we want to manage positions on our systems even maybe within the current accounting system or otherwise within the network we are building on our own then we have to manage these positions while connecting to the chains where the assets are actually living through a dedicated custody function and this is the reason why the custody function as a kind of connectivity and access management capability is so critically important to us thank you maybe if you want to add something um yes absolutely so i think this is this is precisely the area where um huge efficiency gains are going to be achieved across um across the entities and not only absolutely indeed in the um crypto asset custody but also just kind of in in general um the the digitization of any kind of asset be it um on the currency front or um on the on the um on the asset front and um one thing that simon has mentioned that is that is absolutely crucial the flexibility um to be able to interact and interoperate with many different um different other infrastructures which lies to the core of the success of this uh in in my opinion um so this means on the one hand um as simon has mentioned um uh interfacing into the the bitcoin interior networks in order to be able to hold the assets represented there but then also if we look at digital uh of tokenization of digital assets um we don't even know what kind of um what kind of infrastructures necessarily these assets are going to be able to run on um or on which infrastructures they're going to be represented so we need to be able to interoperate with a large number of possible infrastructures so that you can transact atomically across those different um across those different platforms um with and the atomic part is actually very important because with that you are removing a fair amount of counterparty risk and and um the the the need to to roll back uh transactions etc etc so um this is really an important part to it all thank you thank you darko kim if we go back to to the bank of course the security token will change the way we do a business so do you have any uh thought about that any use case you would like to share any sector you believe it will change the way we do business in the security token offering side yes of course we did experiments ourselves with security token offerings to see what yeah it means at least also for our clients and also for internally currently we also look into yeah what kind of bank assets could we tokenize and what is the added value of it because in the end you can tokenize everything and also create security tokens but it has yeah to have add value of course on the other hand i see possibilities for our clients especially in the small medium enterprise sector i think yeah it's a more easy way to raise money and to issue shares of their company but i think still most of them are unfamiliar with the technology and the possibilities so maybe banks could provide support on that part or create issuing platforms or maybe collaborate with existing parties and platforms so yeah i really think there are possibilities for our clients and maybe also in constructions with providing loans for example that we provide them for part with the loan and the other parts can come from token offerings yeah so place for everybody and a lot of partnership in the future between the incubate and i would say the new world uh david any any things to to add what did you observe in the market from yours yes so so i suppose there's been two two areas uh two projects maybe that and digital securities i'd like to mention and potentially kind of you know tie them together and the thing that has been quite outstanding in these projects is their ability to be able to manage um cash on chain so the solutions that we have provided here have really provided like an end-to-end solution um for cash on chain so one of them is uh what we did with um with uh simon's team um in deutsche bursa and that was um basically creating a transaction coordinator to be able to transact between e-money um which was uh being distributed by the central uh bank um uh in in germany and um the um transactions that were done on the corda uh network um in uh in deutsche bursa and that basically um offered um uh services to be able to uh provide a dvp um on top of uh ford um uh for uh for primary market and also for a secondary market so it's quite exciting and the one of the things that was quite exciting about it was the way that um from the central bank point of view that the the integration was really done um um in uh in in a very um i suppose a seamless uh way because it integrated with target 2 um payment system which was already in place so that that was quite um it was quite an interesting take because it meant that obviously banks didn't really have to change too much um to be able to be able to actually go through with this and so that was that was very interesting um and um the other project that um that we've also been uh working on um is actually something that we uh that we did with damo so uh i'm sure is uh aware of this we basically worked with uh with an exchange um um and we were basically working on a bonds uh project and this bronze project um in the end it ended up grossing a lot of uh bonds over a year period it's quite high level of bonds and that project provided huge efficiencies for the exchange um through automation of a lot of processes so it was an end-to-end project um so it automated all of the all the actual bonds itself um but also through the disintermediation that it provided for the exchange so a lot of the intermediaries that were there um in the in the in the original um setup but obviously not not needed in the in the experiment that was done at that point in time um and uh the global custodian that was also involved in this project um provided a cash-on-chain solution that integrated with their um accounts for their uh clients that uh that were working on this so all of the corporate bonds that were bought and sold on this were using uh uh real money from the actual custodian itself um through this cash on chain solution that was that was produced through through tamil and so there's um quite quite exciting projects and i think that really um having a good cash-on-chain solution is really at the heart of the security thing it's what makes it real effectively thank you uh thank you david uh so it was quite impressive to see uh your your different projects so if we go back to blockchain and uh dlt so we used to say that blockchain is the solution to all our problems in the reality it's a bit it's completely uh different because you need to have a lot of prerequisites so if we if you just have a look to the pricewaterhousecoopers studio that shows that in 2030 so in nine years time uh blockchain will be will be able to boost the gdp by about two trillion of us dollars mainly in trade finance first in the payment industry in the digital identity and in the post trade so do you have a project to to share a use case that is really suitable to to the blockchain so we'll start first something to share that can bring value added to to the client and to to your company um yes i can start um i'm not sure if you're aware but we already have two platforms in the trade finance so that are we trade and congo and yeah the blockchain part is there like you said a small part but i think it's really of added value um because at least already for the collaboration between all those parties in the ecosystem and that they um can have their agreements um with smart contracts and it makes it more efficient and it gives way more transparency um so i can imagine why they say it's for the trade finance area interesting to use dlt on the other hand i have a recent experience with carbon platforms so platforms that are selling carbon credits and some of them are also pretending to use blockchain technology and to be very transparent but um yeah my experience was that it was not transparent at all so you don't find where the carbon credit is coming from from which farmer or how much uh co2 is in the in the credits um so yeah it's hard to track so i really think um in those projects um yeah a public blockchain will be of added value so you can track the tokens see where it comes from and that it's of course also not double spent so um yeah looking forward to initiatives in that in that area yes definitely so i'm very happy to see that we are together in the same initiatives with congo and we trade and definitely uh the threat finance is uh is a sector where you have a lot of stakeholder like bank like insurance like the transporter like the chipmunt and so on so it's definitely the way also to to reduce the paper because it is a sector where you have a lot of paper and you need the materialization you you need transparency and it's definitely a very good example also guys do you have any project to to to present where you have seen the real interest of blockchain and value i did yeah i can share something here as well and maybe with regards to kim point i think that's a very important point regarding the example of the carbon footprint um many people think just blockchain or dlt replaces trust yeah like as a general statement but that's not true yeah it replaces trust in the process in between different entities but not trust in the content so you can put on a blockchain it's still yeah and so if it's uh it's a false and green washing uh content or whatsoever it's uh green washing content on a dlt yeah um with regards to the the value add for our clients i think hqvics is a quite good example that we have productive already since two years now almost and in this example we managed to allocate basically baskets of securities as collateral to our clients to fulfill uh on short-term requirements for um collateralization and we do this without having to move the actual collateral out of the custodians and so this is a true value add even though it's uh it's still to some extent limited use case it's not the revolutionizing use case but the use case where there's definitely a value add due to the possibility to transfer ownership of of these basket um types yeah in in fractionalized way even that would not be possible in that speed when we would move it out of the custodians thank you darko david yeah so uh i wanted also to to echo what uh what came as mentioned that for example the entire market around the the um the carbon footprint uh it would be in is is an ideal uh example for that actually anything where you have multiple parties that need to be interacting with each other uh you can uh get get some benefits out of it and and kind of the the examples are are numerous be it on the on the post trade side on the on on the settlement side uh like the project that we're doing with the australian stock exchange or uh with bilateral uh repos that we're doing with uh with broadridge so can there are um but also outside of the finance space for example uh an ideal use case would also be um the uh medical studies management if you get the privacy right um so there are really a large number of possible uh possible good applications of it but what i want to highlight here is that what i believe is going to happen is that the differentiation between a blockchain use case and a non-blockchain use case is going to kind of um to disappear slowly um and what i mean by that is imagine the following you have a particular use case that you want to implement but you don't really rely on any kind of you don't need a distributed ledger for your particular use case so you create the uh implement it on your centralized database and um go into production are happy with it and then a little bit later down the line you see well actually it would be really nice if i could link a certain part of my process atomically to something that is happening on somewhere else on a on a on a different system or on a on a blockchain and now if you can interoperate with the other system you are going to get precisely this and this is what i mean by by the differentiation between a a dlt use case and a non-dlt use case kind of uh vanishing slowly um because because you're going to get in the end the properties added that you would want in the end we are not using blockchain for example just because it says blockchain on top it we use it because we want the properties that it gets uh the the integrity and the atomicity and all of these things and if we can get them through interprobability then we're going to use that thank you david yeah so so one of the things i think is very clear is that the payment space is is very you know is very big in this in this area and um the reason for that is the amount of security that is needed in payments um so when you are making a payment you're effectively making a peer-to-peer transaction anyway and when we see um uh that these peer-to-peer transactions um need uh to be bolstered in security then we it kind of gets you thinking about blockchain in general so it's not surprising to see that um from a wholesale point of view and even from a from a retail point of view that we're starting to see a lot of um either peer-to-peer payment um uh platforms that are popping up um and also um wholesale networks that are getting set up either via cvdcs or outside of that to be able to create these kind of payment gateways um that are um that are uh that need this kind of trust between the people that are using them to be able to um create payments so i think payments is a massive place to uh and then the other thing uh um is around uh so kind of related to that is around post-trade settlement so echoing what um said uh previously there's there's so much going on in that area it's been so um uh so hot for maybe even the past like five years um so um i think that we'll continue to see a lot more evolution in that area um especially because it is driven by uh large exchanges um like deutsche burst or the asx and they tend to drive innovation um much more heavily uh to be competitive in their own market as well so i think that um we're going to see a lot of innovation in that space as well and then the other thing is um around cbdc's so cbdc's will completely change everything there's no doubt about it both retail and wholesale cbdc's will completely change everything and the way that um cbdcs are are used by end users or the way that they are um the way that they are connecting to traditional banking services is going to have a big big effect on the market and obviously crypto and dlt will have a lot uh a lot to do with that so that's a that's pretty mighty sense in the same thank you so thank you so much so i have a last question and i will take just after the different questions from the agents for my last question i can already merge with one question one question from the public so my last question is more the crystal ball question so we are in 2025 so just just four years so where do you see the bank uh using uh dlt in 2025 do we still do we still need a bank in a decentralized finance uh so what will be the role of the bank in the future what will be the bank of tomorrow so this is the crystal ball question one two minutes is it only for me no for for the tech guys for for simon two so uh i can take advantage i am i am a bank but i am the moderator so for me oh i'm curious about the rest things so all right go ahead go ahead okay thanks so um i think that by that time uh we are going to see update uh uptake for uh cbdcs and as david has mentioned this is going to be a a significant game changer because then um you are when you are transacting on anything you are able to immediately transfer money and not liabilities and and this is going and particularly if you think about integrating this capability not um in into a vast number of different potential use cases where where you would use money and this is precisely the point you are using money money everywhere um another point um that um that's that i want to to mention is kind of similar to the point that i mentioned in the last question about the differentiation between um between distributed ledgers and non-distributed ledgers kind of vanishing and i think um over the next couple of years we are going to start to to reduce the amount of conversations about the specific different infrastructures and focus more on the use cases uh that um um that that are being used um because in the end if you gain true interoperability uh you don't really care about what is the technology that is that is supporting this similarly like we uh each uh everyone on this call we didn't uh think about well who is actually my provider who is your provider how are we actually going to connect to each other uh through the internet but rather we have a particular use case and um and and we just kind of use this virtual global network and this is exactly what's what i think we are uh going towards a virtual global network um to to um to um orchestrate uh workflows and processes and uh transfer value thank you i would add on on what daca said a bit because i think i keep the point regarding the responsibilities yeah you can you can try to take away the banks but you have the responsibility for private clients still to safe keep your assets to do asset servicing to do maybe something like taxation and stuff like that and if everybody wants to do that on their own feel free you can also store your pile of cash under the pillow it all works but don't be afraid if it's gone and it's the same for crypto yeah i i fully uh i fully agree with you david and kim uh so so maybe i can make a comment a little bit on there on on from a kind of technical point of view and i completely agree that the banks are not gonna disappear at all you know i think that the idea of you know a peer-to-peer payment system as i mentioned before isn't going to be the future of of of money in the end i think that the banks will always be there because as you said before there is a responsibility um and and because people want people to be responsible for their money they don't want to to to have complete responsibility of their savings so um i don't think the banks will or disappear at all i think they'll get more involved in this area um much more so um but from purely from a technical point of view um and this is kind of along the same lines of what darker was was talking about uh before i think that we'll see um the use of um dlt and the use of um programmable um money um being um uh kind of uh more easily accessible um and in in that way um through um the use of highly scalable solutions like for example canton that d.

a has and through the use of um huge uh either multinational or regional networks like the bsn which is one of our partners red dates network in china um or ebsy in europe that we're going to see a kind of like omnipresent dlt which is going to be a lot cheaper to use and a lot more easy for people to start using as well so rather than that being kind of like this complex uh setup of like okay what which platform do i choose how do i do this um do i need to go to a specialist to be able to do it which is what you have to do at this point in time at some point we're going to get beyond that and it's become going to become a kind of like somewhat ubiquitous in terms of the technology uh that you choose to uh to use thank you kim do you have any vision of the bank of tomorrow client first yes yes i really think i really agree with all that has been said and i also saw one of the questions that yeah do we have um existence and why should we as a bank provide um platforms or products with dlt or crypto and i really still think yeah we have a mean of existence there i think clients are willing to use um products from a bank still not all of them trust the banks i know but i still really think a lot of them are trusting us as a bank and i also think our clients are using those products so i really think in line with that we should yeah collaborate and um participate in this field and maybe i should just say something banks know really well how and exchangers know really well how money works right so who better to be able to model the dlt processes of the future than the banks and the exchanges i mean there's a lot of there's a lot of interesting uh kind of processing that can be uh that can be done from that and it it makes a lot of sense for me that they would be leading this area and i think we're seeing that i think it goes even even uh kind of beyond the the point that kind of bank and exchanges know their stuff well under providing valuable services etc uh for example if you think about anti-money laundering even if we are talking about central bank digital currency for retail purpose um there would absolutely still be a requirement for uh for banks for the customer interaction for the services for the different applications and then also for a regulatory perspective for uh anti-money laundering um and and kyc uh know your customers um um uh laws and etc so these things are not going to go away they shouldn't go away and most central banks wouldn't want to uh to take that on for themselves and kind of do all of these uh these customer facing um activities by themselves so even in in kind of the the retail central bank digital currency space you would absolutely uh need and want to rely on on banks thank you guys we still have eight minutes so i'm also the the time speaker so i suggest to to take some questions from uh from the audience the first one first question is when do you expect we can trade not issue so trade so it will be the secondary market shares and bonds in a blockchain in real time maybe simon can share a thought ah simon when do you believe it will happen for seo but i suggest that it's already the case for me the issuing so um i mean we are in so so for for shares explicitly i would say it takes some times yeah because equity is a bit more complex than that products for debt products we are already looking into direct issuance uh in in one project i can i can tell so where we would assume that we can issue within one hour um this is a part of a project that we're currently running for shares um i would say this can still take three to five years maybe uh to be honest yeah simply because uh also the the administration of equity is a bit more complex than most debt products however depth products that we're looking into are retail structure products and these are already quite complex in terms of life cycle i fully agree with you uh for me it's also a question of adoption of the market so if you want to have a secondary market you need to have adoption and more clients so we see a lot of experimentation regarding issuing of uh digital assets like bonds like wine real estate is quite successful equity it will take time because you have a lot of regulation and you you have the stock market but anyway it's a question of three to four times we have a question to kim in which position and in which use case do you see chances for banks to earn money with crypto financial services maybe it's quite tricky well um i think with providing custody services that might be of course a business model for us um also on the payment part so um we are providing ideal uh transactions at the moment so you can pay from the all other different dutch banks for example with a small application and it might be that the payment solution providers for example that are exchanging the money from exchanges to their customers that we can provide them with services like that that might be a possibility and yeah i think on the longer term maybe on the decentralized finance centralized finance opportunities on the savings part and also the borrowing and landing parts but yeah that's for the future and the future is now i know i'm working on it yeah yeah so uh we we have a lot of discussion regarding the the role of bank in the future of uh defy and banks will still have a place to to to to play in the future no worries like that we have a question is what is your view on the us printing more money and the risk it has on inflation so it's more for microeconomist would you see the name in the crypto world because bitcoin has survived the past 10 years growing by itself do you have any opinion about uh so i i definitely want to um to to give any feedback on policy uh just kind of from a technological technology perspective um i would for any kind of central bank digital currency implementation um from what we've seen so far there is always the the the critical requirement of the central bank being able to control the supply of money uh which means that um that i believe in a central bank digital currency implementation in a future one um the the central banks would still have the sole authority about the amount of the of of um of the currency that they are creating so i think this would um not change uh with with central bank digital currency we also have thank you we also have questions about regulation in in europe mainly in europe and also about the pilot regime for dlt do you have any opinion on that so pilot regime mika yeah so i think so so i mean that's going to have a big effect um and the reason that obviously they're putting mika into into um interaction is to be able to lock down on stable coins effectively and that's stable coins and cbdc's are going to have a big effect on the market when we come to payments and especially in in the retail sector um you have organizations like dm um which have very you know uh very advanced in the stable coin area in fact gft have done an integration in their lab for dm um payments um and um the um the the the eu want to be able to regulate this in a much more effective way and that's um that's really the reason for ford mecha to be able to pave that way for cbdc's and also for e-money and and for um and for uh stable coins so really that's that's that's the main focus there and then i mean as a local level um in in each individual countries you've obviously got some countries which are quite advanced i mean i think in the previous panel they spoke about this as well so switzerland has been extremely advanced um in the maybe the past like three or four years uh germany um is now obviously issuing uh certifications to be able to allow uh digital asset um processing to to to the banks in germany um so jetty's been obviously very involved in this as well um and i think that we're probably going to see a lot of other local countries also taking those steps as well i know that here in spain um there are a lot of conversations and in fact there's like a regulatory sandbox that's been set up and is being used by banks here in spain to be able to model these kind of these kind of flows and and that just means that the regulators are basically waiting um to be able to put the regulations in place once the reg sandbox has been proved out so so i think that we're we're almost there effectively the way i say it with regulation you see victoria i don't know if it is a good news or not it's bad news but it's bad news no i think that we we are just on time we are just on time for for me i uh i have tried to take almost eighty percent of the question so uh for me it's okay we are we are at the end of the panel the last question the last word just yes please please go ahead last words of course yes for you guys last one when it will happen the adoption of blockchain will be for 2025. yeah i i think i think that blockchain smart cities um i think that we're we're a little away from that when the fc is is more mature and uh and i think that we're probably a good five years away from that but i think that we're almost there in certain sectors and i think banking is actually one of them say a year