Decentralized Media, a panel with Balaji Srinivasan, Juan Benet, and Vitalik Buterin

all right hope you enjoyed some uh nice low five beats welcome back everybody we are back on schedule and ready for our incredible panel that is up coming next so um i'll quickly just preface all of this as we uh get all of our speakers on um on to the the live stream and for those of you who participated at hack fest 2020 last year we did a panel that we call just a decentralized panel on the feature social media that is about three first and we have a lot of interesting things come out of that um and uh from a timing standpoint it's been 12 months just a little over 12 months since we did that last talk with all three of the same speakers so we wanted to bring that in and do a little bit of highlight on how things have evolved as well as talk about some new interesting things that happened this year so uh without further ado like to uh invite juan binet metallic glittering and biology shooting awesome to turn your cameras on and say hi to our audience we'll have each of them join us quickly and for those of you who are joining in on eatglobal.tv just a quick reminder that if you have any questions for our speakers uh we'll be able to incorporate a lot of those questions in directly into the next few minutes so feel free to log in and just ask away your questions and as we see those questions uh we'll be able to bring them on and ask them on stage so uh let's see sophogee one veneer and there we go i think we're just about to get everybody here uh so welcome um everybody i'll just do a quick uh ask for an av check just like you can hear us and there we go can you hear me yes we can how are you and all right can you hear me yes perfect so it looks like we're just running into some uh av issues with vitalik so he'll be on in a few seconds we're just gonna restart that session but i'll get started um without him and we'll incorporate them in the next few seconds so basically what i want to do is take some time and just kind of highlight what's happened so far we're only halfway through the year and it's already been so incredible to see just the amount of things that have happened in crypto uh kind of just rolling back a few months ago and just saw the boom of nfts uh just taking over the world um from digital architectural music uh now we have things like stoner cats which uh we just kind of saw alexa from metallica a week ago uh we're seeing dallas opening up to larger groups whether it's uh projects um moving into the space by kind of going from c corps to to downs uh on chain uh like unit swap or or a bunch of other d5 projects to just on-chain voting becoming so common in every decision making that happens uh incredible amount of uh activity happening in the gaming world where it's whether it's top shots on collection or actually infinities or our yield build guide um amazing set of social platforms like mirror or big cloud just popping up and just polarizing people one way or the other or just getting people excited and of course everything that's happening in d5 and scaling and infrastructure all together and that's just only six to seven months in we did a panel with all of you uh last year around just some predictions for how you thought the ecosystem would evolve so maybe i'll just start with that with juan monet and biology until italy shows up um just what are some of your hopes of this ecosystem and sort of just now looking in retrospect the last two months uh 12 months have been uh what have you been super delighted to see the progress of uh since last year yes uh sure um i mean the uh the last 12 months have been uh a an amazing whirlwind right like ton of stuff has happened um uh super super biased here but uh just 12 months ago the falco network didn't uh wasn't live and so like that's been a a huge highlight for uh uh for the system uh maybe it's just staggering to see the amount of um uh storage and applications being built over that storage uh this quickly like we're way ahead of um where we sort of expect it to be and now we have um you know the all of web3 in terms of storage um all the applications fit in you know a few a few petabytes of storage maybe 10 at most um and now falcon has uh you know 8x advisor capacity so that really has vaulted the network into um okay great like now what areas of web 2 should we be uh pushing towards and what kind of kind of applications should be we be um uh building to to you know shift whole whole things that were not possible uh 12 months ago that are now suddenly possible and uh maybe the most crazy thing is the um economic incentives of the pocket network let you drop the storage price down to zero um at least for the uh for the time period where the capacity build out is greater than the demand um while that's true you can the block reward lets you drop the the storage cost to zero or potentially uh negative uh you uh we could see negative pricing and storage the way that we see it in all markets and that would be um a super amazing uh fee to happen because then suddenly large-scale networks uh large-scale applications that have databytes or examines of data storage needs could then be paid for their data which is a super wild thing um and i sort of expect that this will happen sometime in the next few next few weeks next few months uh so social in terms of social media right i think of like how much goes through um a network like twitter um and all of the attachments associated with our like twitter um that's a vast amount of data storage so like now you could you could actually build something like that awesome and before uh biology answers i'll just kind of repeat the question for metallic which is just kind of having done a similar panel with all three of you about a year ago just kind of in retrospect looking at the last 12 months what have you been delighted to see the progress um the most delighted to see the progress of since last year um yeah go for it sure so i think uh let's see the ongoing progress of ens is um obviously yeah really nice um nft is just showing that a a application any application other than d5 can um succeed and that it is possible for uh block chains to attract like constituencies other than d5 type people um and it's it's obviously not the same constituency they'll be attracted by crew by um decentralized social things but it's um you know always take yeah like n equals two is a yeah but uh is a better sample size than equals one um you know so that um it's i guess a sign to be optimistic um in some ways myself realizing that crypto twitter is terrible as uh a yeah another something that has um made me bullish on the like the fact that there exists uh space for an alternative like i think the narrative historically has been that like hey the existing centralized stuff like works great and unless you're you know one of these uh either very idealistic types or very very weird types that's uh that that says things that get sense that gets answered all the time then like you know like what need would you even have but like that's uh i mean no like there's a a huge uh just but there's all sorts of like very different reasons why someone would uh want something different from my existing kind of centralized media and like they leave and i think points to kind of similar directions for a solution yeah that's what i'm thinking about them i mean obviously over the last year um d5 has gone vertical you know a bunch of things have you know been working that were not working for some time but uh you know for many years i have been tweeting and thinking about uh decentralized media and uh that's the thing that i think is it's not like the digital gold story or the decentralized finance story go away it's sort of like you know bitcoin kind of catalyzed obviously the digital gold wave that is still going on that is still a major storyline you know in a sense this decade you know with all the money printing that's happening decentralized finance with ethereum catalyzed that is also that's going places and you know that that continues um you know the thing is that basically once you've established your position in digital gold and once you you know like you know you've got your stable coin and stuff set up i'm not an active trader so i'm not like uh i mean i appreciate d5 on an intellectual level i think it's interesting and i think it's mathematically interesting and and so on but um it's the kind of thing where if you were a hedge fund person you would you would you'd love it more you know um and i like d5 but i don't love it because it's like you know just not something that solves a problem that i cared about that much it says a buy and hold person but decentralized media i really care about and so that's the thing where the developments over the last year some of the stuff for example what ens has done uh some of the stuff actually on other chains i'm very interested in um and that's that's where like a lot of my head is at that's awesome and maybe i think this has sort of been already answered in parts uh through all of your answers but is there kind of one thing that that moved way faster than you thought it would in the same time time period we moved away in the instance of just don't progress to wave much faster than we thought oh well i mean obviously the rise of d3 over the last year is one of those things where you know the meme with the poking with the stick like you know go ahead and go ahead and do something and that's what yeah that's what always happens with crypto is that you know it's this thing where uh nothing works for several years and then it all suddenly just works at once and if you are relying on the headlines or the news to track progress as opposed to you know like checking in with projects and being in the discord and being on the github and watching it you would think nothing was happening and then just kind of suddenly goes vertical and it's almost like you know cryptos like the internet but even more so you know an exponential if you just make it crazy enough looks like a step function right and um and that's kind of what it is like this you know just like tesla like acceleration where you're like this you know in you know what's it called infinite mode or something like that you know they do when you floor the tesla not as a guy but you know what i'm talking about right that's what that's what ethereum was in in early 2017 when everybody had written it off after the dow i thought it was going to be years frankly for ethereum to come back i was you know buy and hold investor but congratulations that turnaround in early 2017 from one bill to 30 bill that was like a you know like next snap kind of thing right and then you know what happened this last year i mean one thing that's kind of interesting is um that you know each soar and crash down brings in like a new group of people uh you know i'm not even sure that the soaring of this year is done who knows by the end this year you know we may be at whatever hundred thousand a bitcoin or so on like i'm not i'm not sure that that story is is done like i'm not sure the cycle is over here we'll see what happens that's awesome um i was gonna bring this up uh later at the end of uh the wrap up of this but i just want to just make sure that i tell everybody that today is ethereum's birthday it's the sixth birthday for ethereum protocol and uh it's an amazing day and just kind of looking back and what's happened in the past six years and just slicing that every year just the exponential growth it's had at every 12 month windows it's incredible to see the millions of lives uh and just new opportunities created for so many people so uh today is a fun and awesome day and can't wait to see what 600 plus actors are going to build in the next few weeks that incorporate everything else in in what three so um vitalik you did a talk last week at htc around just things that are exciting outside of d5 it was that was that that the name of the talk and you listed a handful of things we're going to uh definitely slice a lot of those topics and then focus on a lot of the decentralized media piece but uh just for the people who are not able to catch that talk would you be able to highlight some of those high level themes and topics you talked about on what's exciting beyond justify um sure so a big one was uh decentralized social media um and um i think like to me decentralized social media is compelling both because like there is a need like as i i mean i had some slides there where i showed just myself tweeting my last three blog posts and uh the responses were like hey when if hey you should check out harmony dollar sign one um hey um you know when dogecoin um and it was just uh like for myself personally twitter is just a completely useless medium for the discussion at this point which is sad um and uh so you know like anti-network effects are a real thing um and um there's uh and and also there's uh i think a real need for like a form of uh social media that like technically it doesn't have to be decentralized to achieve this but um you know creates a uh an architecture other than trying to make everyone be distance one away from everyone else uh and that's us yeah like there's a lot of um opportunities to innovate right like there's uh coming up with other kinds of structures there's um in introducing incentives and like introducing various ways to try to just like optimize for getting more quality um there's all sorts of things that you can do and decentralize social media is interesting because like it's a very like it's a very nice playground for doing those kinds of things um it's also very friendly to the model of separating the content from the view right the content is decentralized and the contents can live could be off could be unchained it could be on a whisper-like network we can debate the details um but uh but and then different people can make different views to the same contents which could just allow for a lot more competition between the experimentation with different views um and then the other and like crypto and decentralized attack is just ideal for kind of creating that credibly neutral uh grounds that the contents can live on that all the views can access and the other thing that crypto provides is a very easy to use built-in layer for incentives right that like you can have incentives for could be posting could be moderation could be meta-moderation could be like there's all sorts of ways to potentially integrate into uh incentives and like there's plenty of there's i'm sure lots and lots of really bad ways but there's also some good ways as well uh and like just i think realistically the only way to discover the difference between the two is probably going to be experimentation and experimentation is something that you know the blockchain space uh does uh well as well so there's a need there's an opportunity that opportunity seems compatible with what crypto provides um so that's one thing another thing is as a short term bridge this concept of a decentralized login and like basically you should be able to use your ethereum accounts to log into things and i think ethereum accounts with um if we also move to smart contract wallets and add things like social recovery wallets which uh i'm a yeah you you know well-known not a big fan of then like you can you can create something which is both self-sovereign and i think provides a better experience than like existing google and twitter accounts right like the usual cited advantage of centralization as you know if you screw up you can always contact like go talk to mommy and like google or twitter will help you but in practice like i've had friends that have actually like lost access to their google or twitter accounts and like you know like actually existing mommy is not very responsive um if you're rich and famous the other mommy can often be responsive uh but if you're not then that can be very hard uh so like social recovery i think can even out compete the existing centralized providers there which is interesting and also like the uh getting the adoption for these things often ends up being very network effect defendants and the really nice thing about ethereum accounts is that like they already have the network account network effects there's already you know millions of people that have them um so piggybacking off of that and off of the fact that like they're not going to lose their accounts because their account already stores other like uh crypto tokens and defy things that they already care about so that's two and then three is retroactive public goods funding so basically yeah ethereum like i think we're already entering this uh transition stage from d5 to d gov and like talking about dows and how those daos are going to be governed and those dows have big treasuries they um and or at least the opportunity to get a lot of revenue um but at the same time like figuring out how to actually spend that revenue in a both credibly neutral and non-terrible way is uh a hard problem for a lot of them um and so i suggested retroact like basically uh committing to um giving out these retroactive prizes for things that the dow recognizes this being valuable um and then essentially creating a prediction market where people can speculate on those prices and kind of issue and trade project tokens as being this model that is worth experimentation um i think it's interesting because it kind of combines together different components that kind of cancel each other out each other's weaknesses right like decentralized voting is good it'd be incredibly neutral but it's often bad at understanding what things are important ahead of time because decentralized voting is conformist and conformism often doesn't is not good at figuring out what's going to be valuable in the future um and then you know like prediction markets are like this uh wonderful technique for like basically empowering people who are good at predicting the future and letting them guide decisions in the present um so combine those two together and this seems like a yeah it's a direction that seems very worth experimenting with um i mean i think there's other themes as well and like i think the core themes are like one is branching like well the core theme is obviously branching out beyond define and i think uh like branching out onto just spheres of human coordination that are non-financial and like discussion is a big part of that and governance is the other big part of that so like can we make both of them better coordination uh the the paying for retroactive funding of um of good works is is a thing that crypto can enable now that you know people have been talking about for for a very long time is something that is clearly very useful and clearly necessary for many kinds of um many kinds of impact um and in r d especially you have like this this world where um the science and what you know so far can give you a glimpse of what what what is likely to be made the market is not good at incentivizing what's um what's very close to the science uh the market is good incentivizing the production of um of the making of products that are very close to to end users that can pay for something and so you have this chasm in this death valley chasm in the middle um where r d is is fairly difficult to to uh to do and and pay for and so on and historically it's been the realm of either entrepreneurs building a new thing uh and that's like a like a pretty difficult uh uh hard pathway getting way easier with time but but fairly unbreakable or the realm of like massive tech companies that have that can stomach the kind of like billion dollar per year billion to 10 billion per year budgets for for for r d or governments uh with kind of large agencies um but when you when you add up all of the funding scales of all the government agencies and these large corporations and whatnot it doesn't actually take that much money to do that kind of large-scale nd the problem is it's a coordination problem and if you can do the kind of retroactive funding of r d um scalably with this and kind of pipe um in the in the tens of billions of dollars worth of value through um you could vastly accelerate um uh you know hard very hard work that right now is not getting not getting done at all um so many industries are rate limited by by the ability to do this kind of r d pipeline work um and the retracting funding thing i think is can play a super super key role um one of the things that i've been actually talking a lot about today with uh with folks and and uh recently is this idea about certificates of impact uh so this is a a concrete institution of a retroactive funding scheme where um people can create a certificate of having done really good work in the past having a good impact on something the really good articulation of it comes from the effective outdoors autism community um highly recommend folks to go check it out you can make that our nfts today so you we could have a certificate of impact market you know right now built in in a few days using the nft machinery um and then put you know created like the larger scale retroactive funding uh system ever built and that's something that you know maybe it's like a hack away like maybe one of the teams uh in the hackathon could go and build that thing that could have super valuable impact um uh in in in the whole world and it's a combination of kind of all of this convergence of threads on the nft boom plus um the creation of markets around them plus it's kind of like retroactive funding algorithms plus um crypto on the ability to kind of move capital flows much more efficiently than traditional markets so let me offer a few points those are all great actually uh maybe two complimentary points one is uh is this kind of a little bit not exactly what you ask karthik but but in the ballpark one is that um regarding everything uh you know the vitalik and i've been thinking a lot of decentralized media another angle on this is that um we're moving from internet influencers to crypto creators and an extremely important thing for everybody in ethereum and then generally crypto is find your nearest influencer and get them into crypto find your friend get them into crypto let me explain why first is um these are folks who are distribution channels that are not legacy media channels that are individuals that you can have like a human to human conversation with and you can kind of you know turn them on to what crypto allows in particular many of these influencers get either zero dollars or very throttled dollars from their existing platforms you know youtube gives them some money other platforms like twitter you know give them give them none um and we're already seeing that move to sub stack and so on and now to mirror and to big clouds and other kinds of things and so the you know i actually i don't think that this is a small thing i think of this as at least in terms of scale you know the transition from you know communism to capitalism in east asia and china and what have you you know like obviously there's there's a lot of uh human rights abuses that are happening there but just at the property rights level you didn't actually own anything in china you know the teeth in your head under communism weren't actually even known there's this great article on this the secret document the transform china npr.org from several years ago point being that nobody could actually own anything um they didn't have property rights in the sense of hernando de soto you know it was it was essentially something where everything belonged to the collective and that actually is the state of facebook and twitter and social media right now there is no such thing as digital property rights prior to crypto and once you actually truly own your profile and you own it's not really owning your data per se that's kind of a misnomer because you could always download that it is the ability to contact other people on platform that messaging ability um is intermediated by these hubs these you know these twitters and facebooks and they can you know as they did with trump they could just like remove your ability to contact others now whether one agrees or not with that decision the point is you don't have property rights on such a platform there's no due process and you know the sort of i think thoughtless recourse to oh it's a private company they can do it they want is kind of stupid because really it's a technological failing that that something so valuable could just be seized from you arbitrarily right there's there's there's due process in other areas so it's not just about property rights it's not just about due process it's about direct monetization for these crypto creators because in the same way that you wouldn't rent a domain name for a primary project you'd buy it um these people are going to move from renting effectively usernames from twitter and facebook and having them expropriate all the money that is going through there to to having things like ens to having their own sovereign you know kind of things not because they're like you know crazy censorship you know resistant kind of people but simply because they want to monetize without some giant corporation being able to take all of it right they give leverage against that giant corporation right so that's a crypto creator aspect and there's like the immediate visceral monetization kind of thing but then there's the second order which is having creators on sides is going to be crucial in terms of having a voice to push back against um silly regulations you know thoughtless regulations both in the us and abroad and if you've got something where someone's making even a thousand dollars a year from accepting cryptocurrency on their website or they have a handle where they realize hey i can't be d platform by twitter or facebook then they realize that a lot of these pushes for regulation are not about consumer protection they're about bank protection they're about you know facebook protection and twitter protection right they're not about protecting consumers they're about protecting corporations from the depredations of disruption right and so once you make that argument to those influencers uh you know you turn those internet influencers into crypto creators that builds a defense department for our entire space so find your nearest influencer convert them to crypto help them see this get them on mirror you know or something like that and uh and that's kind of my advice to to folks watching this that's a that's a that's amazing i think that's uh first of all that kind of covers five questions i had so we we can probably end this early but but i know i think what's interesting here is that um what you just did is you just wanted a new one so i'm like i feel like there's so many different slices for what decentralized media means uh to i guess all of us here and just overall um outside and we're looking at a different slice for different layer of that stack um you kind of talked about what matters here is the property rights of actually having your identity be portable kind of in previous talks with vitalik and one we've talked about like what matters more is just being able to be essentially persistent primarily and make sure that you don't get censored or get your content taken out from from the platform you're choosing and some of them care and i guess like another point that you may talk early on which is what matters more is just uh minimizing spam and just being able to actually facilitate a code of conduct or better behavior or ideal behavior on these uh platforms so kind of having said that like are are i mean is there any disagreement in in the slicing like do you all just concur with what biology said or or do you think there's something else to be focused on because i think the next set of questions are about specifically what a better alternative will look like and the properties of that alternative but i want to make sure that we're not talking on different stacks of uh of that layer yeah i mean i think i think you'll probably find a lot of agreement there's probably some nuance in in our opinions about how things might develop and so on like one example that might be interesting to discuss um is how can you how can you describe a good reward mechanism for media in general um for all the different kind of roles within within media everything from kind of like fact discovery to um information collation to like writing um and you know all of the the roles of a of a great journalist and then like great editing um and then great distribution like there's a lot of a lot of different roles that play a really critical part in distilling what's actually true and distilling what is um how do we know that that's true and uh how do we propagate the news to the um uh to people broadly um and and how do we kind of uh make the most uh distribute the most important things to know um yeah efficiently and then reward that like we reward all the activity within that system um uh well meaning right now a lot of the the incentive structures within um uh media and especially in social media are all around kind of like just manufacturing attention um you know like what the talk was saying earlier is like um the social media networks right now just emphasized um it's kind of like race towards the bottom in terms of um getting more attention and so you have this is kind of why um things that produce anger travel further uh which will then kind of create more clicks which will then kind of sell more ad dollars which will then kind of um drive revenues to to um uh to you know the corporations that own media establishments so you get this incentive field that affects the entire um all of the the the um media process um with kind of like this this you know set of reverse incentives around just kind of like um attention and so but if you kind of it happens all over the place and you could start breaking out you get apart into into into component pieces and so i think you might get like a bunch of different nuanced um opinions on like how might we get there one might when my good experiments now that could be done now um what what could that be to kind of get us get us closer um so yeah i don't know i think i think you'll we're fairly in agreement that like we have a lot of tools and potential and and things that could be built now um we probably have a lot of those agreement but like different different ideas on what might work and how how you might um produce a you know kind of like a brighter future um absolutely and i think um kind of uh i'm sorry i think it's one of those things where most of us are talking about the same thing we're just repeating it because we're mostly in agreement but uh we'll just kind of switch topics to go a bit more into detail so this other kind of talked about i think uh a crypto first uh social network has the ability to kind of add all these incentives that kind of keep everybody aligned as you talked about the spam problem so could you walk us through like what a example that one of these mechanisms could be that actually helps us get to the right behavior in the system compared to like people spamming you um and more specifically just kind of incorporating a question from the audience like how do you feel like this type of decentralized platform would actually specifically solve like the garbage or spam post issues um sure i mean one simple thing that could probably be done as just like better anti-civil mechanisms right like um a lot there's just a lot of these like kind of very low quality accounts um and and it's just like often enough it's just bots that have lots of them um and some kind of reputation system um like i if like if i notice an account and i notice that it's low quality that's that's information that should at least like somehow filter through to uh people who trust me um so these are kind of non-economic mechanisms but they can still be implemented it probably should be implemented more and they're easier to implement when the data is all on one common layer and you can talk and so you can just like do all of the it's or it's easier to just do all of these different analysis on it um one kind of economic mechanism that i like is the idea of like basically scaling up a moderation panel by basically making a prediction market on it like if you flag something and then you know you you should get rewarded if it's or if it later turns out that you flagged it legitimately um and this is uh i mean this is the sort of thing that like even centralized like social media have has employed successfully before right like i think uh it was uh slashdot that had this concept of meta moderation where kind of the moderations of themselves get moderated but you know you could potentially use kind of auger or claros type kind of like escalation techniques to make that even more powerful and like basically just uh scale up the power of a much a smaller group too much or a yeah kind of a very high quality modern moderation effort that's uh low scale to a much higher scale um another thing is just something something as simple as just like requiring a deposit to create an account or potentially just like allowing a filter that says like only look for only look at accounts that have at least some deposit and like if you want you could crowdfund the deposit um this is also something that internet forum successfully did before like basically just uh make it expensive to get banned and if you make it expensive to get bands then the quality goes up um like there's uh what other things um i mean reputation systems could be used for a lot of things like you know the concept of blue check marks on twitter right like it's basically this uh you know system of uh essentially social stratification that's uh being uh implemented on a uh uh on a platform whose uh ceo is a person i think last time i checked half of whose twitter is like is promoting bitcoin things and uh like i don't know so something that's uh more uh credibly neutral and user driven in some way would be yeah just interesting to see and something based on some could be reputation scoring could be um and then it could be like economic for people who aren't already plugged into a network and so don't have reputation to fall back on could be interesting to see as well um so i guess like it's some combination of like incentives but also economic rate limiting um and uh but like exactly what what combination of those works uh better as something that i think we can only figure out well after experimentation which is also why i'm uh very bullish on this uh general concept of just like content view separation so you can have a more just more alternative use of views of the same content and like each new experiment on doing that doesn't have to spin up its own network right i think i think we need um some economic structures here that can distinguish the um the quality work done towards achieving um kind of success in the kind of uh in the journalism process that just that can't be easily bought with economic with money from some other economy meaning um if you have some structure where um the reward structures or the um uh the spam prevention or the filtering and all that kind of is happening through um economies where you can just go somewhere else make a lot of money and uh come into this this network and then just pay your way through um through all the filters uh then you get a you get you get a structure where it's just kind of expensive to manipulate um but and you kind of can ratchet things up that way um but i i would love to kind of find very good economic structures that that um that quantify and and reward the the high like the signal to noise ratio filters meaning um where where you have kind of like excellent propagators of of quality information where um there are people are being really good at filtering or recasting or connecting pieces of information um and and making it high much more highly effective to kind of listen to the things that those people have filtered or improved or kind of recast or added to um that i think is like the the economic activity that we have to be very good at at identifying and rewarding um and then giving those parties uh uh kind of influence over the system in a way that can't easily be bought um because in fact i think like systems that make it hard very very hard to buy um uh kind of like the this um good activity here i think would be would be could be extremely successful um do you mean you know is it just the distribution of your fan base is that is that well to understand this or no i mean i think i think we live in a world where um it is fairly easy to capture for there to be kind of like you can't just the same way that there's regulatory capture there's like a journalism capture in deep levels and sometimes these are together where like some party gains control of a country and then you get media capture over it right like the 20th century was a was a rife with examples of this like some group took control of it of a region took control of the media and then could cement their um sometimes quite literally we actually cement but uh their their uh control over some um some some period some area and that um that was connected to the set of people they put in in control of media establishments right and so i think this is to build a a drastically more resilient freer and and accurate and good system you need a structure that is very resistant to to capture and and um when it's super easy to move around vast amounts of less amounts of money um you need economic structures where you just can't buy your way to manipulating the truth or it was extremely difficult um uh to buy your way into manipulating the truth um and so finding ways of making it yeah okay go ahead go ahead one finish just just finding it finding ways of making it extremely expensive to try and do that uh or you think of like staking sticking at large volumes um uh yeah uh any kind of manufacturer of truth well that's good that's a good distinction between okay you you go first yeah i was just gonna say i i like this line of thinking but i also like the other line of thinking which says uh it's kind of taking it from a different approach which is uh it's not free speech we need to reduce the cost of speech what i mean by that is the cost of speech is the cost of saying something true that gets you attacked uh such that you lose your job you lose status you lose your position etc i think that is another that's a it's useful frame you can actually quantify the cost of speech right it is no longer uh you know the cost of buying a printing press right like that was actually the bottleneck you know the unabomber in the early 90s why did he go and send these bombs because he wanted to get an op-ed in the washington post right now that kind of lunatic is on twitter um and you know if the unabomber was willing to kill people for the distribution there's a lot of crazy people on twitter who are certainly willing to fight you online for the distribution right and like the unabomber like their their tweets may parse they may seem moderately coherent or whatever you know but they're actually you know psychopaths and sociopaths maybe not quite to the point of blowing you up but certainly of wanting attention for their kakamemi concepts right and um so the so the issue is in in uh you know this kind of environment uh you know we do have lots of crazies out there but what the response has been basically to try to jam the whole thing in a box where uh okay yeah the the cost of speech in the sense of you can just hit enter and tweet that's gone down like the printing press you don't need that anymore but people have been trying to raise the cost of speech of anybody who's not in the establishment by various kinds of things where you can't say that you know the the chronovirus could have been a lab leak but you know when uh it's it's printed by the grade and the good then we can all discuss it right it's like that fedex ad from a while back where you know everybody in the room you know some guy proposes that you know you send it via fedex and everybody kind of you know looks at him and then the ceo says we should send it with fedex right and it's like you know i was like whoa great idea you know and so who's saying it versus first of what is being said so i think that that's an alternate take i'm not disagreeing with you one i'm just saying an alternate take on it is reduce the cost of speech with pseudonymous publication reduce the cost of speech with the pseudonymous economy so people can't be cancelled and they can actually earn outside of these you know social networks where they can be pressured into saying something false reduce the cost of speech with remote and with allowing people to work overseas reduce the cost of speech by bringing new kinds of voices into the discussion um as opposed to these legacy media corporations so that's my only thing is i i like to have multiple experiments in crypto i don't disagree with your approach i just want to put that out there as a complimentary way of thinking about it yeah and i definitely actually yeah i really agree with both of those uh i guess both of you know juan what i wanted to say about um economic incentives is that i think like economic incentives are not a homogeneous category and there are incentives that are very exploitable and there are incentives that are much less exploitable right like one just example of this is like prediction markets right like uh after the election last year that uh you know biden won in early november there were a bunch of people that were still betting and we're willing to bet huge amounts of money on the facts that like the supreme court or whoever would somehow pull a deus ex machina and uh turn the whole thing into a trump victory and i just like put hundreds of thousands of dollars of my own money against him and i made a nice 50 000 profit right so like that's a good mechanism where you know the harder you try to manipulate and mislead the more you're just like feeding profit to your enemy um so like that's as as a good as an incentive to get right but on the other hand there are things where you know if you uh just like like with a uniswap votes there's for governance there's literally like already people trying to make private deals to pay people to vote on their proposals so there's both extremes um on the pseudonymous economy stuff one other thing i wanted to just say is that i think it's a it's a great point in that i think uh having like good um or having incentives aligned with quality okay requires both improving incentives that are in favor of quality um which i think are definitely not good enough now right like on twitter you know that you get the r0 of crap is uh definitely higher than the the r0 of a lot of quality things um and uh but then there and then there's also a decreasing the misaligned uh in the incentives that are misaligned with quality i actually had a bit of a run-in with this literally like 12 24 hours ago so like yeah i published and uh tweeted a link to my this blog post that i wrote about why i think the genie index is overrated and i think like james depressed which i just like made this like some and other people too just like made this reply that was like hey haha you know a guy with a lot of money makes a comment about how we shouldn't be measuring wealth and equality and like if you actually look at the thing i actually said like it was that was not my point at all like i actually even argued reply in the context of cryptocurrency replacing an index with an index that even more explicitly yeah tries to measure the top of the distribution but you know alas so we have this culture where like by default everything you say is just like so totally yeah is like supposed to be totally enmeshed with um your identity which just makes it like much harder to have actual decent arguments and you know if we can use pseudonymity it and zero knowledge proofs and similar technologies to kind of separate speech from identity while at the same time um you know retaining your like the benefits of persistence or the way in which persistence persistent identity encourages quality with things like pseudonymity like i think that's something that could be really amazing like so i totally get it even very personally yeah yeah i mean like i completely agree with a lot of these points i think that the one of the worries though so uh trouble in both directions right because in in one direction you get into a world where you can um diffuse access to to to speech and propagation of speech you can lower the cost of the cost of speech um but then you need some mechanism by which you can gather around signals and not just truth but putting uh notice verifying that things are true but verifying the context in which that conversation is being made um so so one of the things that social media right now uh sets up is the kind of breakup of the mainstream conversation into a bunch of small bubbles of conversation and that that becomes way easier to um this is good in a bunch of directions because it you allow a lot more uh contrarian thinking a lot more exploration of new ideas a lot of exploration of what might be possible you make it harder for the mainstream to control opinion and so on uh and so it makes it harder to kind of like take over opinion and and whatnot on the flip side it also uh in in creates an environment where it is way easier to manipulate conversations and way easier to manipulate beliefs um and so you have right now uh with the internet already today um it's kind of like um even though there is way faster diffusion of knowledge way more access to to all information that humanity has ever assembled uh way higher quality distillations of that information um way more direct access across people in a real-time fashion uh to every expert in on the planet on every field that you can think of like you can you know you could talk to them that day if you really needed to twitter or things like that um however the conversation is is are so diffused um and so kind of um there's so many battlegrounds drawn in so many different kind of memes that you know administration where people are going into various different bubbles and in this period you have a rise of of way um information manipulation and like the belief in all kinds of um things that are very trivially trivially um easily proven false uh and so you have like this this this simultaneous um uh thing of making it easier to explore uh the the non-mainstream ideas also paying the cost of like eating the fact that that that is going to cause a a huge diffusion into many more ideas that that uh that um that are many times like also super super dangerous right like you we're living it through right now like the antibacter um meme complex is extremely powerful and growing a lot and every country i've been traveling um for a few weeks and all the countries that have visited so far their public and diverse population is increasing dramatically um and and it's even through the last dynamic and so it's one of those bizarre pieces of of of reality right now where while we're all connected while we have access to all the facts and knowledge you still have like information manipulation being so easy to do now um that the facts could be staring people in the face and we just don't have like the right epistemology to to for people to kind of understand how to process those facts how to process that information how to how to get to know uh what's true and i think like solving that problem is a very non-trivial thing and we don't have a good uh good good set of structures so maybe a question for the groups like how do we solve that well i actually have a talk on that coming uh yeah i can preview if you're very interested but basically like rebuilding our information supply chain and you know one thing by the way i think that's really important is to distinguish between you know social consensus versus truth because they're not the same but often will say oh that is true because there was a social consensus and in fact i think you can sort of position facts at two polls like there's the political facts and the technical facts right so political fact is something that's true if enough other people believe it to be true for example you know who is the president or where is the border of a country or what is the value of you know this uh this good right that's that's actually like a psychological phenomenon if you can install software to enough people's brains you can change the value of these variables right their social consensus then on the other side there's things that are purely technical like what is the you know uh result of this equation or what is the diameter of the coronavirus under an electron microscope or you know what is what is the value of the permittivity of free space you know those are physical constants where it does not matter what people think um you know that's that's not something where installing software in people's brains changes the outcome those are physical facts that are independent of any human being and an alien would come to the same conclusions right and then what's interesting is what cryptocurrency has done is it's actually taken things for previously purely in the realm of politics like the o'brien style 1984 where if you can beat enough people you can change it and it started to anchor them with technical facts like you know the value of this equation determines the value of this currency you sort of pull it back over here so the matting crowd can't just flip on a dime and be like you know oh it's a lab leak it's not the lab leak oh we value this we you know it it puts at least some friction there right you're using the social consensus is around a mathematical fact that can't just change instantaneously right so it's a degree of mob resistance degree of intentional friction in the equation right and so to me um you know prediction market style bets i am somewhat i mean vitalik i know you won money on it but you know if for example just take a historical example your prediction market was okay who's going to be educated the guys who committed the mass murder with catch and forest right which you may be familiar with right that was something where the soviets blamed it on the nazis and everybody thought it was the nazis who did this murder of polish officials during world war ii but after the soviet union fell the archives revealed is actually the soviet union right and that's like an example you know this may be an even a barren historical example but it's actually not so much because you you know there's a scrape book by the way you should read called the gray lady wink i actually put it up there with a sovereign vigil it just came out a few months ago which shows that we've been constantly gaslighted by the new york times company and by these other institutions and it's not just that they sort of you know wrote themselves out of causing the iraq or false information or wrote themselves out of messing up covered with false information at the beginning they wrote themselves out of all these other historical episodes where they never actually did have a good informational track record they printed nazi propaganda verbatim sylvia propaganda verbatim castro's propaganda verbatim all of these historical episodes you know um you know they they basically just were were on on really the wrong side and then because they had controlled microphone later they could kind of rewrite that right and uh and so the extent of it it's like you kind of realize when you go back into the archives and you actually look and you compare what they actually said to what they said they said you're like oh that doesn't add up right so we have a huge problem for every area where social consensus determines truth that's much much deeper than than people think yeah so the the book is called um the gray lady winged uh it's by um here let me see if i can oops we'll get that up uh to everybody else why don't you put that on screen or something yeah um 10 of 10 recommendation the reason everybody in crypto should read it is the reason i put it up there with the sovereign individual is you know what is crypto about at the most fundamental level it is about nakamura consensus and decentralized truth right that's you know that's what started the whole thing is how to arrive at you know objective fact in the event of adversaries trying to muck all that up right and you know everything else proof of stake and so obviously i'm a fan of all that but all that kind of stems from that seminal moment right and so this decentralized cryptographic truth is our one shield against centralized falsehood by corporations and states you know and so this book is so important because it kind of shows the depth of that degree of falsification where you know the soviet regime has collapsed the nazi regime has collapsed so we know all the things that they falsified and they lied about but we're still kind of in the middle of this one and you know what i think the next big one is going to be is inflation right we're already kind of in the middle of that um you know where we're going to be first told it's not happening that's starting to shift too it's a good thing and actually prices are down take a look at the cpi which conveniently excludes a bunch of things from the market basket like the big ticket items like healthcare and education and you know so on you know pay no attention to those citizens um and then inflation will be after it's denied it'll be marketed as good because it wipes out all your debts after all and only the rich really stand to lose only people with a positive net worth benefit from you know not having inflation all your debts are going to go isn't that good and then it's going to turn to what happened in argentina and venezuela and what have you in a particular sense which is inflation's a social phenomenon so if you talk about inflation you're causing it because you're causing other people to believe prices are going up so therefore talking about it it's actually kind of a thought crime and it's irresponsible to do that right and i know that sounds paranoid but that's exactly what has happened if you go and read you know the history books and uh not in history because the present the present books right you know you talk to venezuelans unfortunately that's what's gonna happen now you know is it going to play out exactly so who the heck knows i i do know that this decade is going to be a crazy collision between i think bitcoin maximalists and the state and so on and and and i'm not not looking forward to that but i do think that whatever we do we do need to have decentralized sources of truth we need to have uh shadow statistics that are not simply guys in their basement making things up it's very important like the establishment tries to portray deviations from the consensus as being q anon as opposed to satoshi anon which is pseudonymous and above the establishment as opposed to below right and that upward deviation you know yeah there's anti-vax but yeah there's also the folks who saw coronavirus before the mainstream press did and that's like they're they're for the most part provax right and so um we have to be here we have to have a better set of facts and establishment we have to have pseudonymous publication we have to be here and completely resist both this and the branding of of being you know deviation and below it's like contrarian but right you know if that makes any sense there's more i can see on actually we'd go after the information but let me give the mic to somebody else right perspective like that's exactly the the area that we where we need this most right so it's um the problem is right now so far human systems are pretty bad at figuring out those when when things are contrarian but right um if you get the closer you are to physics the easier it is basically because you can run experiments and test it or the closest you are to math yeah so math and physics are fairly easy um the uh as soon as you get away from that um it gets harder and harder and harder uh and you enter much more into the inter-subjective uh realities that you're talking about in terms of okay so let me talk about that for a second let me talk about that for a second because actually i do have i have a spiel here and i'll put out a talk and you guys can shoot down critique it right so so basically um you know right now we have this huge problem where they're you know people are like oh you don't agree with science huh and the thing is what they're doing there's difference between science and quote-unquote science what's happening is people are stealing the prestige of maxwell's equations for some shitty data analysis okay and so so some some study that came out last week because it's the form of science it's got the authors and the affiliations with the superscripts all that stuff that i did in grad school you did in grad school one all of that kind of thing it's got the form of science so it's science this came out in nature or science or or pnas or whatever right um but the thing is the number of independent replications of that study is one trillionth of maxwell's equations less than one trillion right every single time what we're doing right now is an independent replication of maxwell's equations right if we were wrong about how the e and b field evolved with time um this wouldn't work right uh and you know we're replicating you know various results in quantum mechanics all these different things have to work in an extremely consistent way for us to even have this conversation right and so those are scientific results that deserve the prestige of capitalist science but some study that came out last week which doesn't have a public data set which often doesn't have the code to generate that data set and which often the pdf is behind a pay wall simply is not on the same scale when you measure it on the right scale which is number of independent replications now the thing is what people will then say is okay what are you saying biology that everybody's supposed to go and replicate every study in their home we're supposed to build like a like a chemical vat and a in a cloud chamber an inclined plane all this apparatus here i'm like well maybe but i will give you something else which is yes independent people we don't all have you know most people don't have these scientific apparati in your house but you know what you do have you have um you know these things right you have these computers right these phones these these laptops these very powerful computers and so everything that is computational you can replicate locally now there's actually a concept here in science called reproducible research and the idea is that just like you template a website from a database you template a pdf from the code and data and so you release the data and the code where you can hit enter and rebuild a pdf right so this console's reproducible research has been out there for 20 years one concept i have is truly reproducible research where a service like ipfs or filecoin you know could be used to host that uh data and that code and that paper and now what you get is actually a citation graph where you're not simply citing a past paper you're importing it and the process of importing it actually has an implicit replication in it in the same way that when you get cloned something and run it you're effectively replicating that result it is engineering not science right now um the uh metallica okay oh okay um so so the so the point basically is that uh this is something where yes you are still separating it into that which was reported the code and the data are the only thing that the average joe can kind of download and muck around with but that alone is often enough because you can add up columns and rows you can see if things are internally consistent you can run benford's law type test to see if the stats have weird digits there's all kinds of tests that you can at least see to see if things internally consistent number one and the number two if you want to go further for example in sequencing analysis anytime you're doing anything with real real data you'll find so-called batch effects right um where you run the exact same experiment on this instrument and this instrument and there's there's like slight differences in levels of the the illumination and so on just due to batches so what we do with that is we record the instrument number along with it and you do a regression to pull out instrument level variation before you do any further analysis point being it's very easy to imagine crypto instruments that then take out the human step so the data is just streamed on chain and it's digitally signed and you have the full chain of custody for the data where you'd actually have to mess with the actual instrument itself when the data was being recorded now what i'm describing is something we're on chain capacity of ass increases but i know one you're working on that yeah uh we've got the code piece here with the theorem we got the data piece here with file coin put them together we're going to get crypto science and we get created to help facilitate all that this traffic yeah that's right there are other things happening right now that are precisely what you're describing um software stacks that are that are connected to the to the instruments putting it into um into the kind of reproducible uh uh set of experimentation that you're that you're describing um i think yeah it's a pretty bright future there's a lot of possibilities a lot of people are working on this stuff probably not enough so so i think what a lot of when i look at a lot of these projects um what they're really limited on is people more than uh capital or um or ideas or things like that so so we need more people working on these things so it's thought out to the all the hackers uh here if you're uh into science and into into um looking for for interesting projects um uh this area without your describing of kind of like getting into much more higher quality reproducible research is is uh exactly great one and it connects in a hundred percent to the to the epistemology question and to the figuring out what's true question because we need to turn our collective gathering of information across the planet into a process where you can connect every fact that you hear to the chain of province of exactly how we know what we know and and how sure are we and when some result happens invariably later on that falsifies some prior results um as sometimes happens we we can model that and we can we can then cascade the overturning of that fact um to understand what else should we be worried about now and so on like there's been multiple crises in biology for example where certain results got overturned and then called into question tons of of uh of science and including some medication where like people had been treated with with with a bunch of medicine that you know gotta gotta return later so so that's uh yeah i think um a lot of really good good uh possibilities here a lot of hard incentive design and a lot of tool building that needs to happen um i think it would be pretty interesting to see experimentations on this on this uh um connecting of the provenance of scientific data to epistemology in decentralized media so so for example um could you could you build social media where you use the latest in nlp which is actually really good to distill out what is being said and connect it to what we know so far so there's a lot of pieces that people need to need to build uh to be able to enable that but a lot of the component systems are there you can nowadays generate a pretty good graph um uh concept graph graph of what a tweet might say or what a blog post might be saying it might be implying and you can connect that to a lot of the of the facts that we know in kind of the scientific um graph of knowledge and you can connect to the specific papers and experiments and so on that that have shown that that have told us or give us evidence for that fact being true uh and that would be an amazingly interesting experiment to to build an interesting product to build like what happens when you start annotating the media that people are describing with the connectivity to the to the to the graph of what we know is true and how we know it's true uh how we know it is true so i think that kind of stuff might be might be a super super interesting too i was gonna say this might be the easiest moderation job i've ever done because you guys are just at it just having the best conversation without about any direct prompts but uh i do want to just ask one question from the audience and i think it goes back to a point that apology pointed out um on the sudan midi of the the cost of a speech uh sort of theme here which is just uh in that world does that mean that you end up actually having more uh spam or just kind of fbs because now people can just say whatever they want and have that tied to just not a lot of consequences what i think you really need how do you moderate yeah yeah so so i think right now what we have and we're going to look back on this as like you know a disaster but essentially what happened was we have our things like twitter which are just public war zones right they're like a combination of a library in liberia you know liberia you know was in like middle of a civil war for many years right and you know the the thing is that um you have folks who are there to learn and you have folks who are there to fight right and fighting gets engagement and fighting is kind of a low iq thing you can do you know or how many times i mean i don't know if you guys have ever had this experience but any post that you put up that has an equation it's like garlic to trolls basically just repels them because they're like uh i don't understand this you know right um you know i kind of want like every time i type water to substitute dihydrogen monoxide as a sort of a troll repellent or something like that right um but but rather than try to do that sort of verbally and erect these sort of impromptu defenses that's kind of like wearing a mask when you go outside you might have to do that when the state has failed but ideally what you want is a collective that prevents the virus from even getting there in the first place so i think the next generation of social networks will not be these giant assemblies of people who have nothing in common besides a desire to get as many likes as possible that day but instead they'll actually be um cryptographically moderated networks with purpose basically pro donations and uh you know i think that's that's a huge thing of the future i mean basically what we're about to see i'm starting to see this with big cloud and you know with actually what some stuff that twitter is doing with bitcoin i think we're starting to transition from um just mere social networks to social networks plus cryptocurrency equals network nationalism that is to say you don't really care if somebody joins instagram but if you're a holder of crypto instagram you do care suddenly you're recruiting for it in the same way that you're recruiting for a cryptocurrency and so the the point is that these network nations will have not just their own cryptocurrencies but and their own values but their own standards for what is true and not true and so on and so forth and ideally there's at least one that is run by rational scientists and engineers and that is essentially the the filtering the um like if you if you centrifuge something right you get all these different layers out like there is that supernatant right that this is the thing that floats the top there should be at least one of those subnetworks that is genuinely rational that knows when to fight when attacked but that is not like a first strike kind of you know character that is rational enough to entertain new things but not so empty-headed that you know all kinds of woo and crystal stuff is is taken on board and what i'm describing is i think where where we stand uh you know of course that may be self-serving but i'd like to think that's where we stand um where you can tell the difference between let's say you know early cryptocurrency versus a get-rich-quick team one has technical substance one does not same with longevity there's actually technical substance there it's not simply charlton's peddling a fountain of youth but there's actually data and science there right so the i think the answer here is we actually need to have groups social networks sort of like what each research is in some ways sort of like what you know zcash has their forum you know filecoin has its forum we've built these kinds of things in small groups we haven't done is actually take the torch and say look we're going to actually enforce civil discourse here we're going to have physical levels of civility we're not going to have the free for all of twitter um if you want that twitter's right there go and knock yourself out this is actually something which is more like a house or more like a community where you know you're we're actually trying to seek truth and i think that's i think that's likely to be the way that we do it and we're going to need to use cryptocurrency to align the incentives to build a defense there right to build essentially an online athens of a kind right um and uh that's how i think about it i'm open to your thoughts mostly just like for vitalik maybe um kind of similar line to that same question which is just understanding like okay if you have this as a premise does that mean to my understanding this creates more of these sub-communities and fragments kind of groups to self-associate with the similar types of groups and and like there are definitely negative effects to that type of behavior i feel like twitter even though you have celebrities and and doctors at the same time like they can still have a discourse but do you kind of prevent fragmentation in these worlds but here's the thing 19 1950 was like peak homogenization right you had one super uh you had one telephone company at t and two super powers us unissar and three television stations abc cbs nbc right and it was the it was the 20th century was the age of these giga states right the us and the ssr but also the prc and so on and so forth right and as you go forward and backward in time forward to like 1991 and backward 1890 you actually started decentralizing that was like a super centralized moment you go forward in time you get cable tv and then the internet backwards in time you start to have you know the the rob barons that got you know crushed by fdr and teddy roosevelt and you have the closing of the american frontier in 1890 and in many ways our future is our past where we're kind of having you know the tech barons like the robber barons or the the cryptocurrency like the era of private banking the coronaviruses like the spanish flu socialist nationalists fighting in the streets like weimar the inflation is like weimar and so on and so forth we're kind of replaying in sort of a kaleidoscopic way pieces of our past because i believe the fundamental driver is that the strength of the centralized state is kind of weakening at least in the west and so you know another way of thinking about this is absolutely the i love lucy days are on their way out where everybody gathered in front of tv and they all just kind of watch the same thing right we have all these channels but that's actually a rediscovery of all this intellectual diversity that existed before that homogenizing moment of the mid 20th century right so in a sense we're actually going back to the future if you take the long enough view many different schools of thought many different kinds of traditions were wiped out by these giga states of the 20th century now we're sort of you know having that flourish again and yeah some of them are bad but some of them are really good and so we're going to have deviation upward and deviation downward because that's what the internet does the internet increases variance in everything by removing the middleman removing the moderator removing the mediator removing the medium which are both good and bad things it just increases variance in everything you get more upside and more downside so we just lean into that we want to amplify the upside yeah and i think i'd definitely say yeah a very similar thing which is that i definitely don't think that it's true as a blanket statement that fragmentation is bad like often fragmentation can be good right like i think there might have even been like i don't remember the exact details but study is where like you know if you do the thing where you get a bunch of people to like vote on how many balls are in a jar and like the results are more accurate but the results are more accurate if they ask independent if you ask people independently they don't see each other's answers right like fragmentation just is intellectual diversity it allows different groups of people to focus on specific things and make focused efforts to like um figure out specific things like even if the larger environment doesn't understand what they're doing at first right like longevity research um the fact that that's just like a bubble that managed to happen despite um you know almost everyone in the world not caring about it for so long um caring about um existential risks like ai risk that was also uh you know the result of a rationalist and it's a kind of effective outros philosopher bubble um i think uh it's not so much fragmentation versus uh uh being like being worse than no fragmentation it's that like there is fragmentation and the question is are the fragments going to have positive sum or negative some interactions with each other and like status quo social media definitely creates uh lots of ways for fragments to have very negative sum interactions with each other right and i think the problem is basically that like one way to think about this is that the selection function that's operating on these fragments is one that basically is this kind of internet warfare and internet warfare doesn't does not at all obviously corresponds to quality of an idea the um like like part of what i think people might be seeing is that internet warfare is an even worse uh selection function than like highly so um highly civilized long-form debate and that's where like you you can get this kind of reduction in quality from like basically prints media to what to twittering um but like there a selection function that's even better is just that the ability to like actually build build something and like to have it yeah like to have a fragment that actually creates something of value right and like some fragments can and um you know lots of other lots of other fragments can't um well i think that's a really well put decision framework yeah i think we agree on on a lot of this i think that the thing i will say about fermentation is that it's extremely critical to be able to fragment and be able to fork be able to go and um uh create these different communities and so on um and at the same time we are in a larger integrated system and so the the uh the actions of one fragment are not uh isolatable from all other fragments and so there is some amount of um of connectivity and and um or some amount of like shared uh fates uh we're entering into a century where the capabilities of technology are so tremendously powerful um and the cost of of using the technology is um getting smaller and smaller and smaller um to the point where it's going to be um super tricky and dangerous to allow a lot of fragmentation if we don't immediately as fast as we can connected to a very good way of testing what's true the fragmentation will lead to vast amounts of manipulation um way worse than what we see now and uh remember that the gig of states that you referenced formed out of like the easy to take over fragmented states of before um and so in a world where it's just dramatically easier for for small groups who to of course manipulate like large large amounts of those fragments by kind of like um poisoning the memetic complexes we're gonna need that appeal to to um to a good good episodology across the across the system uh so yeah leave that with the to the heck of this hackers uh figure out good ways of of connecting us to to reality figure out good ways of making sure that um that you know in all our decentralized small fragmented um webs of information that we're kind of building for ourselves in all our bubbles we can still reasonably quickly distill and and connect what we're saying to reality um because if we don't do that we're gonna enter into like a world of uh in the world of fiction unlike what we've ever seen before and those are super easy to take over so just uh yeah fair warning um that's not the matter words i'm excited about um i'll end this off with one last question for all of you um if you were a hacker at cfs and you had the next three weeks to build something cool in any category that we either talked about didn't talk about what would you uh either build yourself or tell others to build you start to stop with my biology uh well go and subscribe to 1729.com because we're actually going to put out a prize for a decentralized inflation dashboard um i actually think that's going to unite the clans because it you know validates the btc worldview you know which i you know in many ways subscribe to that inflation is coming and the state is going to print tons of money it validates the eth worldview that dapps are important it validates like you know crypto oracles um it's basically a stress test of our entire infrastructure to just get a few numbers on chain in such a way that everybody can see them um and i think it's like it could be like the next coin market cap where globally this dashboard just gets refreshed constantly most people don't know this but coinmarketcap.com passed wsj.

com several years ago in terms of traffic actually because it's like the global financial dashboard who cares about the public stocks anymore you know it's all crypto and so this inflation dashboard the critical thing is to have a really good information supply chain that is audible and better than cpi because you can't just be like oh you know the vegetables at my store are more expensive you know or whatever because that can be dismisses anecdotal evidence you need to basically out phd the phds and do so pseudonymous so you have to be like satoshi level but i think that something like that done well will kind of unite the clans and be a very important thing for us to build it's like a true application that millions of people around the world will have to use it also brings people into crypto in several different ways buying bitcoin using ethereum you know using you know maybe file coin other things to store the data sets required to build those um inflation dashboards and so on so that's that's something that go to samsung.com um we're gonna send out a prize on that pretty soon one i think you wanted to say a few things yeah i would say um uh just what we're talking about earlier i would say certificates of impact are not you can now make them with nfts and they could be super valuable so go make those um this kind of collecting the chain of um verifiability of information so create nfts out of go look into the science nfts and create nfts out of every single scientific artifact everything from an experiment to a um a figure to like the data sets to the papers to uh all of that um maybe funding mechanisms around that so use uh source cred or split and split streams to flow um rewards back to and funding structures back through the scientific uh graph um and and then hacks around um being able to kind of like connect all of that that information flow with um yeah this is appealing to kind of like the social media type aspect of things um ways of elevating our conversation whether it's in short form things like twitter or longer form things like blog posts or um news articles or books or you know you can pick any kind of media size you you most appeal to you and find ways of connecting the the what is being said to what we know so far is true and why and how like what make that evidence evidence chain like super clear so hacks around that awesome and lastly vitalik any uh suggestions for ideas suggest suggestions for ideas um i think uh another thing that's uh just important from a technical point of view is just like the basic infrastructure that we need for any kind of cryptosocial thing to work at all like uh um ethereum logins that's something that the yet foundation recently yeah pushed out an rfp for um and that's uh there's lots of ideas there to kind of do some work around um the concept of attestations um so just for the concept that like you can detect um you know what kinds of uh properties some account has like you know is does it have some youth balance does it have a proof of humanity it doesn't have a pope pope token um does it have like some um some other kinds of uh record behind it maybe even making us a some kind of better system for at the stations i'm incorporating incorporating that in some way and just make this base a um also better smart contract while it's like just all of this infrastructure that's like not connected to very specific uh ideas for um social things but that has to exist in order for all of this stuff to be built on top in the first place amazing well i want to thank all three of you for giving us your time today i mean from just our perspective it is incredible that we're able to kind of talk about all these ideas and then talk it to a group of people that are going to eventually build it and the the results of which we're going to see a few years from now and just the fact that we can have these types of conversations um in in in this community and just have people like all of you involved is truly incredible uh from the global side and just from our side so really appreciate your time and um it's just another endorsement from our side to kind of make this decentralized movement a lot more possible and and distribute it so thanks again to everybody and uh really appreciate you taking the time and through all these different times those everybody said amazing thank you so much