ADFW Launch Special: The Financial Titans' View

[Music] So, so much ground to cover. So, we'll do our best because I'm sure there's a lot of hungry mans to feed out there in terms of your views on the global macro pictures. Um, but I kind of wanted to start with uncertainty because it's almost become a given recently in terms of market volatility, uh, geopolitics and and the remainder. Rey, from having heard you many times on the stage, I know that's not a surprise to you historically because we've seen these uh, cycles before, but perhaps to share with the audience, what is the single most important principle you think that investors should be focusing on at the moment?

Diversification. Yeah,

I think that investors think too much with the um in nominal return terms, not in real return terms. I think they think um in a traditional what is a storehold of wealth and they think for example a treasury security is an effective storehold of wealth. Um, and I think that by studying history that includes all of the swings of history going back ideally many years, but but let's say if you started in 1960 or whatever, and to see how these changes take place. I think that um also um diversification is important because to be able to make tactical decisions to beat the markets are not what most people are going to be able to do well you know I put in hundreds of millions of dollars to try to beat the markets you know and it's a zero some game almost so to know what you don't know particularly during a time like this of great uncertainty um diversification so that you know how to maintain or improve your buying power no matter what happens is the most important thing. Yeah, we kind of heard in the last few years that cockroach approach um which a lot of people are are very keen on and we'll come back to a bit more of a macro picture in a second because absolutely fascinating to discuss those traditional stores of wealth but Bill I want to come through with you in terms of single principles that you use when you're it's a bit of a hard question really trying to make those big decisions.

Is there any sort of go-to that helps you sort of navigate?

Yeah. uh many go to but it's always just reflecting what on Ray's uh appeal for diversification which of course is completely correct. I think that's that's also uh clearly coming from the perspective of an investor. Uh we're a bank and as a bank we tend to focus on the downside. So uh diversification is key in terms of protecting against downside risk.

Uh it's also uh very important to understand what the tales look like. So uh we we we try to approach every every challenge or every question uh by understanding and being quite clear what our base case is and investing on that basis understanding what the what the tales are what what are the adverse or positive scenarios uh how how dispersed are they and uh what does that mean in terms of the built-in resilience that we need to to establish for ourselves so that we can withstand you know banks are leveraged entities uh we have to be able to withstand a severe shock uh in fact banks make the biggest leaps in terms of their strategic positioning during crisis. If you go into it strong and if you go into it weak, you don't come out. We've seen that time and time again. So the the the the northstar for us is be very clear what your base cases, but be as clear if not more clear with what the tales are and decide what you want to do to prepare for those tales.

Yeah. The the the heat of the spotlight when a crisis occurs is is very heady indeed. And I want to pick up on both points that you mentioned there and that's the role of data. Of course it's a given in investment decisions but Ry as you were alluding to there there's so much data and sometimes you got to pay a lot of money for that data. Are people overwhelmed with data?

I mean obviously not big organizations but the individual investor and is there any a time that both you and Bill use gut instinct uh alongside that data?

Of course you would be overwhelmed with data. So I found um something like 35 years ago. I started Bridgewater 50 years ago and I something like 35 years ago I had to write down each of my criteria for making decisions when I would do make those decisions and then I would put them into algorithms and I would get data and I would test those decision rules and I would build systems. And what I found is that by using the computer and earlier forms of AI, and now I find it better than ever with current forms of AI, uh I'm not limited by my human brain to just to be able to uh measure and deal with complex uh situations because you know it's the butterfly theory and it's true that if something's happening here and there and then the inter relationships. So I think the days of um weighing things in your head um and thinking you're going to be competitor are past and that um using AI as a partner not a substitute for your own thinking but for using it in a way where um it um you can ask any question you can deal with any inter relationships and that it works in that way is um essential for competitive in this in all aspects.

So, it's not just data, it's having a a proper AI partners that um can do what you can't do because they can deal with so much more data. They can deal with so many more complex relationships. They can you you can systemize your decision-m and see how it would have worked throughout history to stress test it and you can deal unemotionally. So the building of that game plan and doing it in that way is the way it that's essential.

But that sifting is at speed which can be at a double-edged sword because the markets are whips soaring around and moving quicker and quicker it appears than ever before. So is there a role for gut instinct, Bill, or just purely the data?

I I I think you should really avoid relying on gut instinct. uh the as Ray says, you start with data, but we always have to apply judgment. Uh and judgment and gut instinct aren't the same thing. Judgment is is taking the data and and understanding data and we're using the term very broadly. We're not talking about data points.

We're talking about you a stream of objective facts and then applying judgment to those. How you weight one source versus another or one suggested outcome versus another. and you the data or the the the analytical basis for a decision will will take you to one conclusion. Yeah, just picking on that point and making it clear the criteria that you're making in your decision, the intuition, the gut is something that increasingly I've learned this from many decades of doing this is something that can be articulated in principles that you can write down and you can test. So a lot of that which you are thinking is in uh intuition or common sense is invaluable.

Okay. But to cross the line to take that and use that as the basis of articulating it and measuring it so that you can bring it to that level and there's no doubt that you cannot go to the computer and trust the computer. Okay. that it and when I say it's a partner, it has to be something where you're stress testing essentially each other and you say that's right. I may not have seen it because of the inter relationships and the complexity of those things, but now as we're looking at it, that's right.

Never let the computer or the AI um be something that you follow. This is a really interesting conundrum and and Bill I'm maybe going to layer it at your door as well but yours too Bill is that the sense that um we use AI and friend or foe to the markets we can discuss but having the background knowledge to assess whether it's giving you the correct information is something I think people take for granted because you know I'm getting on um we're we're all of an age where we've seen quite a lot of risk in the markets and there is maybe it's unfair a perception that people under 35 don't understand real risk. Do you agree with that? And is there a worry that people's experiences aren't enough to pull apart what they're seeing in front of them to be able to assess it?

Well, for me, I I think that there are so many people who are so focused intently on little bits and pieces of the whole system. Uh you know, we have specialist we're going to talk about the world. There's a monetary order and situ problems. There's a domestic for all countries political problems and situation. There is a geopolitical.

There is nature and there is technology and they're all interrelated all over it. So there's enormous complexity and people don't have either a historical perspective on these things. I think much of what's going on now is very much like the 1930s in terms of its cause effect relationships. But anyway, they don't have enough and everybody's so specialized that it gets very confusing.

So, uh I I think um yes, you can have remarkable expertise in an area, but actually bringing that together and putting in a historical context and understanding what's going on everywhere is a challenge.

To the age point, I think sometimes having a mind that that's less cluttered by facts that may not be so relevant is extremely helpful. You see some of the most valuable companies in the last 10-15 years have been created by people who are still under 35 years old and it's it's not been because the world's been nice and calm for the past 15 years. The world's been in different degrees of till mult especially in different parts of the world. So I I don't think it's an age thing at all. Well, I think it's it's a it's a clarity of of perspective thing and uh people who are successful today are using as Ray started off the data that's available digestible in ways that were inconceivable to me when I started my career that have become much more so through time and have kept a few north stars in terms of the the things that when it comes to applying judgment those north stars that they're using to to drive their vision forward and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but the great successes have been people that had a very clear northstar and then informed by everything that's teed up for them in a way that it's never been teed up before.

So I I don't think there's an age issue at all. Uh in fact, if anything, I think those of us that have been around for a while may may be stuck in our ways and not using all the tools that are or data sets that are available to us in the most effective way.

That's a particularly important point because we were just talking about a number of things including war and all of these things. And I think that there's a mindset now that is based on a memory of the last um let's call it the postworld war II period 1945 the existing order and that order is changing and so you could be biased by most people are biased by their experiences because they haven't gone through the earlier experiences. So let's talk we we as you said we kind of went macro before we went m sorry micro before we went macro but let let's zoom out a bit because you touched on some important things there. Uh I kind of alluded it to in in market volatility. But I know you've talked previously Ray about the five forces in in in great length but maybe for the audience that aren't familiar with that these are the things that are really shaping the future the most.

Which one of those five are you particularly focusing on at the moment or is there just the whole lot together all the time?

There's an inter relationship. Okay. I I learned in 1971 when I was clerking on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange and President Nixon in August 15th got on the television said uh money as we know it is uh ending and we're not going to give you the gold uh because and that was money. And then I um I was surprised when the stock market went up a lot and I'm clerking on in this and I found out the exact same thing happened in March of 1933 with Roosevelt on the radio making the exact same announcement for the exact same reasons. Okay.

So what I learned and what I see in studying history including that before my time, we've never been through wars before. We've never been through a monetary breakdown of the system. I've learned that there are by and large um I studied the last 500 years years of history to see the rises and declines of reserve currencies and so and what that shows is that there are five main forces and I'll be quick um there is the death money economy dynamic the mechanics of how that works there's the internal political the left right um increasing polarization dynamic that is connected to the economic there is the Third which is the geopolitical dynamic which we see all around us and and that changes everything. The fourth being acts of nature and the fifth being technology and they all interact. You can't look at them independently.

So we fight countries fight an economic war before they fight a military war. So we're in a e economic war, trade war, technology war. We are in those wars. And then we have uh the question of the military war. So I can say that one but I will say that I from my judgment from studying this is that all orders can break down.

So you have a monetary order in which uh basics you know what is a storehold of wealth, what is a bond and what what is which we're dealing now with your first question of gold and so on. So anyway, um they're interrelated in that particular dynamic um that history um paints many time over many times over and sometimes for me it's a lot like watching the movie happen over and over again and the only thing that changes is people's clothes and the technologies they're using but it's the same basic story. Let's go back to that one dollar gold because there's a lot of talk at the moment for the reasons that you've alluded to there, Bill and I'd like your opinion on it as as a safe haven. Gold again. Some even saying crypto um dare I say it.

What's your view on the dollar as a safe haven at the moment versus gold and maybe views on crypto?

Well, I just go back to to the the the thesis of diversification. I people have concentrated their portfolios in US dollars for a few decades now and they are diversifying perhaps because they've got concerns about the dollar perhaps because they want to be more diversified. Uh there are geopolitical challenges as well that the dollar has been weaponized as a as a as a mechanism to uh enforce policy actions coming out of the US and allies uh given the privileged position of the dollar. That's that is a challenge. countries like Russia or or China will react directly to that because they feel directly threatened.

Others will just look over their shoulder and say maybe this is a little bit better reason to be diversified. So uh but is that the end of the dollar? Of course not. I the dollar has tremendous underlying advantages in terms of deep capital markets and and very strong rule of law in the United States and uh support from from an independent Federal Reserve. Long may that continue, etc.

So, I I I'm not worried about the dollar, but I I do think it's quite natural to diversify not just the the your dollar holdings into other currencies, whether that's gold, which is another non-fiat currency, or Bitcoin, which is another non-fiat currency. As we know, gold is now a bigger component of of central bank reserves than the US dollar, right? And that's that will probably continue until we get to a diverse portfolio. there aren't that many alternatives. But it's also that the the payment rails that are set up the the the system of global trade was substantially based on US dollars as recently as 5 years ago.

Uh China now denominates the majority of its trade in R&B. It's not because it's a reserve currency and it's not because people are dying to have or use R&B because it doesn't have the same usefulness as the US dollar today. It's because people want to have an alternative just in case. And that I think we can expect to see continue to develop.

We emphasize divers diversify and so just on the basis of that a well- diversified portfolio would have somewhere between 10 and 15% in the portfolio of gold if you so if you didn't know any thing you would have that amount. And it's an alternative currency that is uncorrelated with other assets because when you have a crisis of that sort, it tends to go up a lot and the others go down a lot. So from a diversification um but um money um it is debt and debt is money and what I mean by that is when you hold a dead instrument um you're holding a promise to receive money from somebody and when you're holding money you're holding it in a dead instrument and money um is supposed to be both a medium of exchange and a storehold of wealth and what what you What we have now is a supply demand problem because there is uh the world is abundant in debt and one man's debts are another man's assets. And so when you're holding it as an asset and a storehold of wealth, there is a problem going on that that that's why history has gone through these big cycles of sometimes there is a fiat currency and sometimes then that doesn't work so well and then there's more the not fiaton currency of which gold is the uh main. So we do have a supply demand problem and we have those those issues and then as you were pointing out there other um there's a geopolitical problem.

Uh whose money do you hold? If you're China and you could go to war with the United States and you're holding their bonds and you study history, you remember maybe that the Japanese did that and that didn't work out so well for them. and the Russians have recently done that and that didn't work out so well and so there's the need for that kind of diversification. So it's true for those countries too. So for those reasons I think people should consider what is a neutral portfolio and don't be so biased toward the regular debt and a regular assets and overlook the possibility of having a decent you know an appropriate amount.

Are you short of that well diversified number?

Yeah, I mean um I I believe you used the phrase uh the US is heading for a debt induced heart attack in the next two to three years. Do you think the market value valuations are over or under underestimate underestimating that today I'm just thinking about the tariff lifebo lifeboats that people are talking about the extra revenues coming in. We know on an economic basis we can that's a separate discussion but is that going to help at all or or not?

I'm sorry what's the

then the the question was that you saying that the US is heading for a debt induced heart attack. There's there's there's various people saying that the revenues coming in from tariffs is maybe helping that situation.

Oh it is. Yeah.

Um as I said we can discuss the economics behind that at another time but do you think the market is overvaluing that or undervaluing that at the moment? The United States spends now 7 trillion is the budget US government. It takes in 5 trillion. So it's spending 40% more than it is taking in. It can't cut those costs for most of those reasons.

They're obligated. The U tariffs um we don't know exactly, but let's use a number of half a trillion dollars. I mean, it could be if you take the those numbers, they're good numbers in terms of bringing in elements of tax revenue. There's merit to that. But the issue of the supply and demand seems to me as I do the calculations, and I'm never sure I'm right, but I do the calculations.

Um, is problematic. So uh how it happens um you know we can't say and when I say an economic heart attack I just don't want to be evocative but what I'm trying to say is that the um system the c market the capital market system works like a circulatory system in which if you bring credit you're bringing buying power which is like nutrients and then as a result if you put that into investments let's say or activities ities that produce an income, it's healthy. When it doesn't, then the debt service starts to build up like plaque in the system and it squeezes out other spending and we are seeing that happen. We like a doctor watching you could see that happening in the squeezing it out and then because of the circumstances geopolitical and so much there's a supply demand problem. So you would have to a doctor would have to say I have to give you this warning of what your condition is and that you are at risk of a you know a heart attack of sorts you know a debt crisis a dollar dollar debt crisis.

So and it's not just dollars it would be other you know the British pound and European currencies and so on because they are in somewhat similar situation.

So Bill I don't know if you want to jump in on that if you have any. No, I I only observe because of course the the UK and and France are in similar situations, but the market is providing a much more severe constraint to their ability to expand their debt base. Then the market is allowing the US. Then the question becomes for how long and up to what point? Uh I think if you're I live in London, I think if you're sitting in London right now, the the incremental 5% of debt to GDP feels somewhat existential.

Uh whether that it's the case or not, only markets will judge at the time if we get there. uh France similarly given that the political instability there uh there's not the same anxiety in the US the 10-year note is trading at 4.1%. Which is at a lower yield than it was a week and a half ago. So there's no sense of of the market saying basta and we're not going to let you go any further.

But that does not extend indefinitely. the the big question I think of our time is when do we start crossing that line uh from what what may be complacency into what may be real concern. I don't feel like we're very close to that in the US at the moment but as we know from history these things change very quickly.

Yes. And that ability to see what's in front of us is sometimes quite hard and standard charge has been sat there in the middle of the east west transition of finance for a very very long time. Um and here in Abu Dhabi, of course, we're seeing a lot of benefit from um the exchange and the the move of that. What's your view from that standpoint and the history of your bank?

Well, we have our whole management board here in in the Emirates and Abu Dhabi today, in fact, and uh we've been here for the week. Uh it's it's our hub for for the entire Middle East and Africa with probably the the largest international bank operating across across the region. uh and uh we absolutely see the United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi in particular, as as a nexus for flows of of intellectual property, flows of money, flows of trade, uh with especially the ports in in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Uh it's just a very very special place to be. Of course, they've they've been quite adept at at managing neutrality as well, very close to the United States, but also have good healthy relationships with neighbors and and then further a field.

So uh the UAE is in is in an excellent position to benefit from these the shifting geopolitical tides. Yeah, if the tide goes out, every boat sinks. We know that or at least goes down. Uh as I think the UAE is also quite prepared for the downside. So back back to my earlier comments about having a base case which which I I find the leaders in in the region are are exploiting in in a very very thoughtful way but also understanding what the what the tail risks might be and making sure that you can survive those in in good form.

I see that preparation as well.

And Rey obviously you've been based here a very long time as well and and been in seen many many changes like other markets. Do you think as well the the speed of change we see here and the open-mindedness to embracing technology and and various other things is helping us create organizations of the future? Um it used to be an exporter of wealth from here in Abu Dhabi historically and now we're seeing it as a a great importer and exporter of wealth and is that partly because they are creating these organizations of the future?

Yes. And I but I also go behind that who and why are they creating it? And it comes back to basics. It comes back to culture. I I was I've been coming here for 32 years and um you know I've I've I've seeded and the the valuation the values and I would say culture matters a lot and what you have here is the most important basic things that I've seen have beenre ingredients for successes of countries throughout history and that is um do you raise your children well so that they're well educated and civil with each other so that they can be productive and that they can be civil with each other to work well.

Okay. Um do you um earn more than you spend and do you handle those finances well? We talked about investing. If you take in money and you build good investments and um this is not a country in which they chose to live on their wealth and so on. You look around you and you see how they invest here very well for the development the intelligence and I will emphasize the word of intelligence and capabilities that exist here and you know and then also do um are you at risk of a war either a civil war of some kind or an international war or can you play that neutrally and and navigate yourself through that these have been determinants of country's successes throughout history.

So the elements of that culturally exist. So that's the power behind um you know the money. Think about the inventiveness that has had to occur here. In other and and the organization and the capabilities you can have a lot of places where there's a lot of money but you can't pull it off. Okay.

So look at what's actually being created. So here is, you know, I'm here um for those things and also the um the brightness, the future. Think about what's going on with artificial intelligence here and so on. These are the elements that you you can maybe look beyond when you just see those changes. No, there's the evolutionary forces of those changes, which is something like raising your children well, good parenting, and raising your children well.

Yeah. It's amazing how it comes back to the basics as well as into the future as you talk about AI built on solid foundations I suppose is what we're saying there. Um I can't finish this interview with asking you both about climate because that's what we've met before on previous stages talking about the impact and of course very dear to your heart as well Rey. Um maybe Bill if I start with you first. I know you're almost weaving it into your new branding um you know that best is not good enough or something to that effect.

Um but you have said that investment in sustainability needs to come with a return. Um so talk us through that philosophy and and how you're standing as standard chartered.

Our philosophy is very simple. Uh first of all we operate across Asia, Middle East and Africa. Obviously important uh operations in the US and Europe as well. uh the markets in which we operate will be the most exposed to rising temperatures whether it's through two weeks of 50°ree plus heat in in central India or the 19 coastal cities that represent 70% of our business. So we're exposed in the first place.

Second uh we have to think about future generations and the future generations will be severely compromised by by rising temperatures if we don't do something about it. We know what we know what the right thing to do is which is to use our force as a forcefulness as a financeier to help our clients transition to a low low economy business model. Uh it's the right thing to do. There's only so much of the right thing you can do if you're not getting a return on it someplace. And so we took the view that we're going to do the right thing and we're going to make money doing it.

So 7 years ago we set out a bunch of policies. We said we are going to be a thought and action leader. Thoughts are policies, articulations. I spent a lot of time trying to reinvigorate the international carbon market. I've not succeeded it to the extent that we wanted to.

I will not give up because I I think we need a proper price for carbon. Carbon needs to trade in a in a transparent way so that everybody can attach themselves to that market and measure their own progress. But we're going to do the right thing, but we're going to make money doing it so that we can take the proceeds and continue to reinvest in their business. So, we said three years ago, we'll make a billion dollars from zero uh in our sustainable finance business by 2026. We made a billion dollars last year.

We'll make more this year. Despite the somewhat backing away from the climate agenda in some parts of the world, I can tell you most of our clients are as engaged as they've ever been. And we will make more money in 2025 than we did in 2024. And we'll make more money again in 2026. I don't want to sound too grubby and mercantalist, but I'm quite proud of the fact that we're able to do the right thing and make money doing it because it means that we can continue to invest in what we know is right.

And I think that's an important conversation because people seem to think it's one or the other. You know, it's almost charity, but it's good to see that we're moving beyond that mindset. I know Ry, you're very passionate. Ocean X is one of the sort of major foundations on on on which you show your care for the environment, but where are you seeing in terms of investment? He said sometimes there's been a little change in um perspective maybe from some organizations in terms of their investment in this part of their business.

I just want to so echo what he's saying. Um climate is a huge issue in terms of just if you take the economics of it. Uh there's um if you don't deal with it, what's the climate uh damage? There's the how do you prepare for it and that's expensive or how do you fix the damage and that's expensive e all of those come out to something like 8 estimated 8 trillion a year 6 trillion a year world GDP is 100red trillion this is an expensive high impact thing and then I watch um well-intended entities uh think we should do this and and make the investment in it and not practical ical in which they're asking themselves who has what amounts of money and what are their motivations. So they may think a bank has got a lot of money and you should do this or a government has a lot of money and they should do this.

Well a bank has got to make money you know money comes in got to make a profit of that and you get a margin. It's not like that or a government has to you know money comes in you have to spend it and you have to get there and so you and I do a lot of uh philanthropy and it's double bottom line you have to think about double bottom line how do you achieve that and the fact that you can think about that for example um who's got the money and what are their motivations biggest pool of money is institutional investor money that's that's how that's they've got the money now if you make that economic for them. So because they have to take care of somebody with that money. If you make it economic for them now there's so much inventiveness that is going on. This is an area for I see it great venture capital great investment opportunities if people are starting and institutions are starting to think about how do you do that.

So building up an industry that has double bottom line. what Bill Gates did with um uh Breakthrough Energy is a very good example. He created a double bottom line fund to invest in these things and it's provided a terrific return for his investors and a terrific impact. So, I'm agreeing with you. It's got to be that double bottom line.

That's that's the only way and it's going to be a big expensive thing because we're not going to make a huge impact on this if we're seeing what's actually happening. we're going to have those kinds of changes that you're talking about and then when we have those changes now you're dealing with how what they mean for us and then how you diversify your portfolio and all of those other things we're talking about. So, I'm going to bring it to a close now because I I think we've covered a lot of things. We could sit here all day as we know because there's just so much to discuss. But I actually want to end as as I often like to on people and leadership because it's the people in charge of these organizations and institutions that make the decisions and sometimes I think humanity gets a little bit lost in terms of organizations.

So if you were thinking of a question that every leader should ask themselves, I'm particularly partial to communication or how people communicate within their organizations, but what's one of the key skills they should have and and what kind of question should they have? And do you think communication should be one of those?

Yes. And but I think you have to go to the higher level like what's it for?

You know, meaningful work for me, meaningful work and meaningful relationships. Um what are you on a mission to do? And how do you work together on those because you're spending the time together and are you on a mission? So people and culture, what's your culture and what's your mission has got to be top of mind and can we agree on those things? I think that's most important.

We run organizations which are collections of teams and in aggregate it's one big team and uh but everyone every member of that team is an individual. So I I think that leadership is about finding the right ways to understand the individual and understand what the common purpose is so that you can get the most out of the team because the collection of individuals is rarely the best outcome. Some some people have found a way to master that to some degree but mostly it's the value that comes from aggregating those individuals into a team. So I always say that that the key attributes of leadership are are curiosity. So really understanding the individuals and empathy I understanding where they're coming from but then applying that back into a team uh and and getting more out of the team than the individuals could ever produce alone.

When we talk about that though and we talk about culture, I think that the organization like your organization will answer this has to know what it's what its culture and where it's going because and sort people because if they don't want to go

where you're going. So it's not just listen to what they want. Oh

yeah.

It's where are you going that I mean that let's say the country here when we're talking about it. where are you going and how are you with each other right as at the end of the day and get rid of the people who aren't on board for that

and it's it's fascinating when when you look at organizations that have done extremely wellwater not least uh and say what's your north star the members of the team can answer that question and when you look at organizations that have lost their way and you ask the individuals what's your northstar I guarantee you nine times out of 10 you'll get different answers or no answer

and Ry you're well known for asking the best questions As you said, a lot of people focus on answers, but asking the best questions is one of them. And ruthless transparency, does that ever get you into trouble?

Does it ever get quite often that but but is it worth it? Of of course.

And let's say uh yes, my my mantra is meaningful work and meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency. and so on the radical truthfulness and transparency. If you don't know and can't agree on what's true and what the motivations are, you are going to not have a sound foundation about what you should do. And so being truthful about strengths and weaknesses and so on and and what each other's thinking and then trying to work it out together uh to get at what is true about strengths and weaknesses and what should be done is a fundamental thing. But for but in many cases people don't want to talk do that and they will talk behind each other's backs in um in in negative ways and so on which is counterproductive not productive and transparency um is also something that means that it things are clear.

So when you can be you can then trust in the honesty and the straightforwardness of people with each other. So you know that you can rely that what I'm saying I believe and is truthful and that is a fundamental ingredient to all good relationships. I think now it may be difficult to get through and maybe you know sometimes I might say my you know my wife asked me if you know that's okay I I don't does it get me in trouble sometimes it gets me in trouble but it's worth it you know.

Yeah. Okay. Well thank you for being so honest with with those replies because I think it's really important for leadership to understand and and for those around them to understand what's on your mind and as you said what direction they're sailing in. So gentlemen, it's a great honor and a great privilege. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you.

Uh round of applause, please

for Ray and Bill. [Music]