5. Investing in Network Goods: New Ecosystem Funding Paradigms - Bogota 2022

well thank you everyone for coming for the funding the commons track at shelling point my name is Anna I currently work at the Sila Foundation leading Community um Community programs and Community Education grants and I'm so excited to be here on the panel with Scott Abby and sky and um I think we're going to frame this more as a conversation rather than an interview so because I think we have such a wide range of expertise here about funding um Network in public goods ranging from um foundations bootstrapping grants programs to Dows allocating Capital with decision-making to novel funding mechanisms like Dow swaps retroactive public goods funding and more so I want to kick it off first to just let every panelist introduce themselves and what do you do awesome um I'm Scott I work on gitcoin which is a kind of program and protocol for funding public goods funding uh local community shared needs um principally within the web 3 system but also more broadly Within increasingly real world applications awesome Abby hi I'm Abby I'm the head of community and governance at radical uh radical is basically a protocol ecosystem that's building um decentralized collaboration tools that helps uh developers build decentralized software together um I also sit on the board of the optimism Foundation optimism is uh ethereum's L2 baby and they're experimenting with a lot of really exciting things in governance um which I'm supporting them with as well thanks I'm Sky I'm a full-time contributor in the Dow space I spend time in the DX Dow space meta cartel Dow house ecosystems and recently we launched a a project called public nouns amazing and we are all here on this panel to talk about um Network goods and investing in network Goods but what is that actually mean I think a lot of the times we tend to go really abstract and really high level because we're in at 24/7 we're all working on this on these problems and thinking really deeply about it but I really want to ground this conversation and talk about like what what is Network Goods how do you define them and what is the role of network Goods in in the ecosystem oh man yeah there's a lot of answers to this I think we talk about a lot of different types of goods in web 3 and network Goods public goods these are all I think types that have very ambiguous definitions um by default um for Network goods and public goods as well like I like to think about these as you know things that produce positive external for the communities they're part of more so than focusing on a uh you know one particular type of good based on some economic textbook definition with public goods this has been a historical problem where like we talk about them as non excludable non ralis but there's lots of things that are clearly excludable that end up being very useful and like funded actually in the context that we think about like in previous paradigms like by States um as like public goods so Subway systems electrical grids um you know even universities like are restrictive and also tend to produce lots of very valuable public goods in terms of education and so forth so I think for me the positive externality framing is like the most kind of simple way to start I guess identifying what we care about when we're talking about these kinds of goods what is the what is the property that we want to actually see in the world um but beyond that I think it's like mostly up to us to you know better redefine and better like articulate these terms to people uh in in in simpler simpler forms you know I I was almost going to like think about the idea of like positive some Goods or like super modular goods and I think that like it tends to be that we create new terminology sometimes like to clear semantic baggage and in the process end up just creating more complexity yeah I really like that framing a framing that I really like that I've heard some people use before is the benefits um the benefits of others and public goods should be acatic to your own benefit and so it means it's foundational that to your own yeah I think that for me um I'm always coming to all of the public goods conversation with more of a focus on free and open source software and I think that Network goods for free and open source software is infrastructure and so I think infrastructure is this uh Concept in which um having resilient infrastructure means that you can have a resilient ecosystem of goods built on top of it right and so I think that a lot of the time protocol Dows and protocol ecosystems their Network goods are actually the infrastructure that they're uh contributing to and that they're maintaining um and I also think that it like speaks to I think other alternative uh or I guess external definitions um of network Goods in which the you know infrastructure is maintained right it's not it's something that is maintained as a public good I think free and open source software is a public good and the network good of the free open source ecosystem is really like the infrastructure um that we are all contributing too so I think that that's kind of how I would Define it um yeah yeah my definition is pretty simple and high level if there's something in your community uh in your state in uh yeah places you hang out and it's underfunded it's likely a public good or a network good and so you can just look across our lives and those that's how you can identify them it's very easy and this is what we are all trying to change that is the problem it's that's why we talk about it so much and you know I come from the metac cartel ecosystem slaying mik is is the term we use it's the it's the the demon of yeah stopping good coordination and and that is the reason why public goods are often underfunded because you don't yeah no one individually fixes that but as a as a as a as a group if we if we actually solve it and fund it everyone in the world is better off and so it's like yeah very high level definition amazing um and the second piece of this that I really want to ground Us in is what is a new funding mechanism and what is it what are the old paradigms what what is the problem with the old paradigms and why do we need new funding mechanisms so so one of the definitions again it goes back to like the state and like public being like you know New York as like a state or like you know the us as a country or wherever it might be I think that that definition is outdated for a variety of reasons perhaps the most important of which is that most of the things that we consider In This Very like like both generic like and simple way like to be public goods things that we all use things that we all rely on um that we think would make us all better off are underfunded by those organizations or by those institutions and I think that's true not just for uh like government institutions it's also true across a lot of the larger kind of Institutions that we rely on including like companies including even nonprofits a lot of these models are I wouldn't say outdated I think there's value to those models but they don't solve for especially coordination problems that tend to be very Global at scale um so specifically like climate change we've had 26 or 27 like cop meetings like the like climate Summit meetings and you know we haven't really made I think significant progress um which is of course my own bias but on solving that problem clearly there's a lot more that we need to do to solve that problem and if we're not solving them via those mechanisms the solution isn't to just keep doing the same thing the solution is probably to try something new and try and work with the communities that we're part of to do more locally which I think is becoming more of a a trend in the last even five to 10 years for us to do um by default so I think you know to me the the failures of the old paradigms are mostly just if we look around our community what are the things that are missing to to Sky point and why are those things being missed in the first place and I think part of this goes back to you know how we're framing the things we care about about um what we're relying on ourselves for like as like kind of like individual like networks of just people versus what we're relying on this abstract nste and Abstract sort of these these Notions these like egregor we built up like to like solve for us so um I'm gonna stop before I get it too off track but yeah that's my thinking yeah AB you wanna have something to add to old old funding paradigms yeah I think that um I think that old I think my perspective on the paradigms that need to be changed uh with regards to funding Network Goods public goods uh definitely kind of uh has been contextualized by the evolution of the internet which is a network good a public good in a sense it uh at its core it's like an interconnected network of open Protocols of decentralized open protocols right um and in I just talked about this in my talk um on the other stage but over the evolution of the internet we we've seen it become more and more captured by um forces who are attempting to extract surveil and um control uh the nature of the internet right in an effort to um uh extract profit by extracting um and manipulating and using data and so like this capture of the internet has gotten to a point where we don't uh many people I think in this generation wouldn't see the internet as uh what it was when it started right again like a network of decentralized protocols they'd see the internet as Fang as Facebook as uh Google as Amazon and people that contextualization change I think speaks to how the funding Paradigm for open source software and open source infrastructure are inherently broken because they aren't resilient to these external forces that in their capture and in their extraction are slowly building building and monopolizing and consolidating the internet into the hands of these individual corporations and so I think that it's not just broken it's like critical critically broken and damaged to a point where you actually are it's becoming harder and harder to Envision a future in which US as humans are actually able to maintain online civil liberties such as like uh privacy like Financial privacy Financial access um even like technical access and so like the more that the internet centralizes because of uh the non-existence of um resilient independent funding paradigms the more we'll see the traditional Paradigm Take Over Control and continue to you know uh consolidate and I think that that's like a very dangerous thing especially for our space which is where the digital public goods that we're funding are these like financially Financial privacy preserving Technologies which are like banking the unbanked which you're providing open access to finance and this is an extremely um ideological and uh argument that we're making which is that people should have open accents to finance to the economy and it's something that even more so than before challenges like the current funding paradigms that we have so more of a rant on kind of why I think it's important but I think that the way that it's so broken has created this situation for us that now we're all trying to kind of find a way out of yeah I I think the old way was dependent on big Central counterparties so the internet all of the protocols that it runs on were either government or academic institutions money centralized entities I think Kevin auki taught me that Linux is was like Microsoft would give money and they were like one of the only only people funding Linux because who else was going to fund Linux right and so those are all centralized now with this technology that we have you can do basically we have an example like Wikipedia Wikipedia is funded by the people right you everyone donates $25 every year they asked you for the money you give it with crypto it's even easier so now the people can not only fund these important things but they can actually own a piece of the protocol and so they're even more incentive aligned to fund it and be a part of it and that's the power of the of the crowd yeah yeah I can I just add one comment on that because I like what you said about um like the original funding sources for a lot of whether it be like public goods infrastructure like digital public goods infrastructure it's the concept of like intermediation and that we are dependent on intermediaries and sometimes that's fine because actually sometimes intermediaries can be good like they can be like value aligned and I think we've seen that like for example with like Milla spawning rust and uh contributing to the decentralization of rust or um the eff funding tour right however the I think the point is why that's broken is because it's because of a future state in which more and more um corporations are attempting to extract to the point in which those anti-competitive forces will outweigh the value align forces that have been driving our traditional funding paradigms and that's like really I think the reason why we're looking for new ones is because it's because of the tragedy of the commons I think we've already seen it play it out in like kind of like traditional physical public goods and now we're starting to see similar Trends um in the digital sphere and we're trying to combat that yeah yeah and I want to just pick up one thread from that and talk about one of the traditional um funding paradigms um talking about VC funding and private Capital because we we still have a lot of that in the web three space and Scott I want to ask this question to you uh what do you think is the role of private capital in funding public goods infrastructure in web 3 yeah I think there's there's a lot of Need for again like having the crowd involved and I think having the crowd involved is is an in necessity for truly Community owned infrastructure I think there's there's two thoughts I have on this I guess the first thought is that there's lots of things that have been privately funded like universities that have ended up creating lots of good positive externalities for broader communities the question I think to the points that we made earlier is just like in what way are we reliant on those institutions and in what way is the power sort of like where is the power held where is like the Nexus of control and like how do we make sure that that's like distributed more broadly to the community and make sure that like the institutions are held accountable in some way um I think you see a lot of problems with this with like large scale VC funding and even web 3 where like large players will like come in and they'll like put crazy amounts of capital into like a network and then you'll see you know like with a lot of like new like eth killer types of projects like uh like you know there's some even that are launching like this year that like I think tend to be very VC heavy very VC owned I think that tends to be a challenge that I think needs to be solved over time but on the other hand I think there's value in having private Capital be part of the conversation in public hoods funding and I think we've almost become allergic to that notion because of the fact that we're so used to the sort of like State being the only entity that can do this kind of like work and for it to be the only entity for which it's like actually properly incentivized to do that work uh but like as you're talking about with optimism I think there's this idea that we can actually somehow align impact and profit in the web three world through these ownership models that in a way that hopefully solves some of this problem at least at small scale I guess for me it's a matter of like degree and I think so if you're a fund doing like you know early preed investment in like shared infrastructure that kind of thing to me that would be very valuable and I'd love to see more funds sort of doing that I think the bigger challenge is when you get these in any institution really to a scale where they're just constantly kind of like um like almost orborous like the style like eating themselves and I think that's where we're at with like even a lot of the large sort of like players in the space which is why like we need some sort of like way to break those up but yeah I think private capital is maybe unfairly um aligned in some context and maybe that's like you know the question of just balance in all things but I think it's important to kind of take both sides of that and and explore that uh like more deeply especially in the next cycle because clearly we're in a bit of a bare market now and in the next cycle I think it's up to us to decide what we actually end up doing and what that balance looks like yeah and just to double click on that I would love to hear your thoughts on how you've seen this play out at gitcoin from gitcoin now moving to gitcoin Dow and the work that you're now doing with PG Dow yeah I so ultimately my goal with um you know any experiments that we're running tends to be you know ultimately about how do we get more funding into the hands of grantees into Builders earlier rather than later and I think this is a problem with traditional funding models where you kind of need people to almost prove themselves as like a business person or a like founder type versus just being a builder who has an interesting idea and wants to see that out in the world I mean I think someone like even ballic like if they went to a16z today would probably not end up potentially getting funded if they didn't know who he was because they would just think like oh like this is just some kind of moonshot idea and that was true in like 2015 no one would touch like the crowd fund no one would touch any of the work that he was doing and it was only later that people kind of retroactively said oh we were like totally on board with this the whole time we were like super excited about it this is like amazing and we need more people to take bets earlier on people that have good ideas and are are passionate about those ideas um so I think grants funding is one part of that but I would love to see I mean in the last cycle gcoin funded things like Unis swap it funded things like urine it funded things like poap um things like optimism and I I think that it could really you know stand to benefit from potentially taking some upside in a retro kind of pgf type fashion in those projects so there's some exploration around what that might look like and I think it's a you know ongoing conversation but hopefully as we head to the next cycle that'll be an interesting exploration yeah and getlin grants has done a tremendous job seeding the the ecosystem and just to pick up on the retroactive public goods funding I don't know Abby if you want to contribute more about um how you think about that at optimism yeah I think that um well so I think that the concept of private Capital uh for me coming from this like free and open source space is that like people in the free and open source space have this like treat money differently than people in the crypto space is that we look at we look at it as like well people in free and open source treat money as like a lawful evil in which like money ruins all things and this is kind of why I think comes from like the free and open source ecosystems based off of like volunteerism solve your own problems and all of that and uh Collective contribution and then we kind of look at it as this more like chaos magic almost right like it's a chaotic good it's something that we can use to redesign incentives and all of that however I think that it is um just because something is decentralized in its ownership doesn't mean that it's actually uh you know combating the effects of centralization within the project so just because something is technically decentralized just because a treasury is governed by a token voting governance mechanism definitely does not mean that it's not centralized and I think that the role that we've seen VCS play in web 3 in crypto speaks to that Paradigm in which everybody we all talk about it I think openly here which is that a lot of these systems are just representing plutocracies with VCS at the helm um and driving all of the governance that we're doing yes it's a little bit more decentralized in the traditional corporate model but it's still pretty centralized in which either the founding team members or the earliest investors in a project could swing any vote and direct any Dow in any way and I think that this is an important point because it's it's fine that it's like this we just need to make it better and I think it's um more about figuring out how we can kind of build more diverse um and engaged decentralized governance mechanisms that we can use to combat the external forces that will eventually regardless of how value aligned they are will eventually turn to these ecosystems to extract that's just the way it works and you can't blame them this is like literally what their corporate forms are based off of this is how they're designed we just need to harness the good parts of that which is that we can there is value in taking private Capital to jump start an idea and there is a way to provide a return on an investment however that return on that investment must not compromize the ideologies and the foundations of the technologies that it's stewarding and I think that's exactly what we're trying to do that's like what our like ultimate goal is is to prove that that works that's what we're doing at Radical by transitioning our company um which was was like a German Gamba we transitioned it to a foundation which is like a Swiss foundation and now we're transitioning to the DA and in that process we're not just you know we we launched a Dao but I wouldn't say that we're a DA an effective Dao yet we're token govern but I don't think that we're not a plutocracy and the goal now is to be Distributing ownership and influence in a way that we can transition power and voice into the hands of the participants of that ecosystem and that um and that Network in an effort to support its continued desent ization into the future because we're not at that future state yet and same with optimism right optimism is experimenting with how can we recreate the actual funding mechanisms by making public goods profitable by using retr pgf and developing a governance Network about around the governance of that pool of capital to deploy it into an ecosystem in a way that's sustainable and guarantees long-term investment because of um redefining like the actual incentives of the way that that works and that's that's like the new paradigms that we're we're doing and it's um so like we're not there yet but it's kind of the the future state of where we're going so VCS aren't evil but like eventually they will be because that's just how they're programmed and the goal is building using VC funding to build a system that can remain resilient to that extraction in the future hear me out civil resistance quadratic voting this is the sorry Scott yeah so I'm slightly biased but Dows solved this um an example is an example is well eth2 wasn't getting funding and you can do this on a grand basis or you can do this on an investment basis it's just more legally hard on an investment basis but eth2 wasn't being built Amin solomani created Malik da built it from scratch made a DA that was very simple and worked started funding the building or well furthering the building of eth2 and now we have yeah proof of stake ethereum um it took a few years but he did that without anyone's permission he didn't have to ask the permission of ECS of the ethereum Foundation or anyone else you can just as a community do this and you can fund anything you want and that's yeah all related to what we're what we're doing here yeah tornado cash they gave they funded that um yeah then you then you had those were the those were Grand stows and metac cartel and then they started experimenting with investment versions of that so you can also win in the upside without the VCS by creating Dows that meta cartel Ventures and the LA started investing in the projects in the space some of those are public goods some of those are you know other projects in the def5 space and stuff but you yeah you don't you don't and actually what's really interesting is this behavior that we're doing here will could will eventually Force VCS to become more friendly VCS I think and and that's what's amazing is the what we as individuals can do can actually change the behavior of these big financial institutions yeah this is very quickly the biggest part to me that I think if anyone takes anything away from this it's we can like like the notion of prefigurative like politics basically is just that like you're actually taking action towards the world you want to see and I think we often see like criticism without action like I think that's very common both in web 2 um even arguably in the AI space like I think we have to solve the alignment Problem whatever I'm not going to dive into that but I think that like we talk about it as if like oh like you know who's going to solve this is like the person who's like always criticizing the like research that's happening and I think there's a balance to be had in terms of how we we actually like build new systems like what are we doing to solve like what are what are new paradigms like we're just building parallel tracks that solve basically in hopefully better ways the problems that we saw in the old systems that's that's all we're doing yeah yeah I I love I love all of these things and I just want to Riff on I think um there's three things that come to mind when I think about funding ecosystems and new paradigms and to me it all boils down to three things that I really that if someone can take anything away from this it's I think we need independent thinking we need independent process and we need independent sources of funding and what those three things mean to me independent thinking means that you can have community- based decisions you can have Dows make decisions you can have someone say like we believe that this is important we want to fund this so this has to do with having the ability to have an independent thinking process and then independent process has to do with like how do we tap into funding for Grants like foundations are notorious for deploying Capital pretty slowly because we have like a specific diligence process but you can fund something with a d with a proposal in a very different way um and then you can do something like getcoin grants which is a whole separate process and then independent sources of funding because funding allows you to have agency and autonomy over how to deploy those funds and I would love to go into all three of those and to see if you have like any meaningful examples but maybe we would first go to Sky because I would love to hear your thoughts on on Independent thinking first and how do community decisions play in in public down in public nouns in public nouns specific you said public nouns or or yeah well yeah so yeah what you described there is like a complex way of saying we need like lots of crazy experiments I think and this space is the reason that's why this space is so fun is everyone just like comes up with crazy experiments and sometimes they get funded and sometimes they don't and sometimes you're like you know what we don't need funding we're just going to build it we got guys like Lewis back there that just just build it right um and so yeah maybe I can just so one example is um looking at the space and seeing where money is Flowing right so there's this project called nounal you collect these pfps they're one a day and all the money goes into a treasury and that treasury which has $40 million today is being used to like propagate the meme of nouns nouns is a CCO cc0 like anyone you can print it on a shirt you can sell them here at at the shelling point and it's all cc0 there's no rules right so what we did is we see that happening in the space and there's a lot of fans of this of this mechanism and we basically took that mechanism because you're allowed to we forked it and we made it all for public goods and so 12 days ago we launched this thing called public nouns which is basically nouns Dow but it's called public nouns Dow and it's yeah one of these is sold every 12 hours forever and all the moneyy is going into the treasury there's no cut going anywhere and that is and and one noun is equal to one vote one public noun is equal to one vote and that Community which is starting to form will decide what to use this money for there's currently 99 eth in the treasury and so you can check it out but what we did is when we launched it we had um organizations that have the same kind of ethos and Alignment in the public goods space like organizations that love public goods so we had radic IAL and gitcoin and panala and uh optimism and metac cartel and mik and crl fund were the initial organizations that all got together and built this forked it and launched it and now we have this pot of money that we want to give to people that are doing crazy experiments in the public goods space and so this is a new this is a brand new way of funding public goods but not we're not going to just donate the money to the public Goods we want to give it to people that are coming up with crazy ways to also fund public goods and so if we're going to get to billions and trillions of dollars that we need to fund all the public goods and network Goods that we want we need an exponential effect so we're going to use this money to find the the young builders that are like creating the next platform that's going to get like to a billion dollars and then that money can go to public goods and so that's an example of a of a brand new way to invent a mechanism to fund public goods that hasn't been tried before Abby do you have anything to add yeah a lot of things first public nouns are awesome you should definitely go the seedling is the best noun so if you're looking for one to get get the seedling um uh I yeah so I think that we were talking about independent process independent funding and independent thought right yeah no no we wanted to rant on public Downs it's good no so I think that those three um um uh categor speak well speak very speak well to me they they speak to me um in that they definitely represent a lot of the decentralization that we're doing with radical so right now we're transitioning all of our foundation the radical Foundation currently governs and M maintains and manages all of the funding for radical core development and we're actually currently transitioning all of the core teams that are funded by the foundation to the radical Dow and that doesn't just mean throwing them into the Dow and saying okay you know here you go like engage in this like super plutocratic like onchain governance system it means starting to design the foundations for a more member-based organization um in which these core teams can one organize within themselves as an autonomous organization within the Dow itself so creating an independent process in which these organizations actually can uh build their own governance process one that best fits um their mandate and what they're trying to do and spawn and support the creation of these orgs um that act again these like nested polycentric uh squads of people who are governing themselves together um yet all abide by rules that are set by the Dow so basically you're embedding trust by uh creating um like Sovereign governance mechanisms that are supported by checks and balances that are encoded in rules um and so these you know organizations can act as independent thought process and funding sources um yet also be trusted by the Dow to be making the right decisions because the onchain governance guarantees that if one of these independent uh you know um orgs goes Rogue uh the Dow will be able to take action right and so that takes a lot of work so it doesn't just happen in a day it requires the distribution of ownership the distribution of influence the empowerment of individuals within the organizational design but that's kind of like where we're going with radical Dow and so I think that this is also the way a lot of dows will go which is like the modularization and the localization of decision-making um to you know I think that this whole direct to Da approach will you know kind of resolve itself into more localized decision-making centers that are all interacting with each other so so we kind of talked about thought a little bit free thought experiments process so I'll talk about funding we'll like cover it that way um I think for me like quadratic funding is really the idea of using Community sentiment to build a kind of preference map of what people care about not just what like again like Wales care about what a broader Community cares about in a local sense so even you know in a local sense digitally like for example the Unis swap ecosystem but also in a local sense physically for example we ran around with um like Oakland on nonprofits that were raising funds for their own needs there and I think in each of those cases what you're trying to do is like like what do we what do we mean by Independence right I think what we mean is communities are governing themselves communities are governing themselves as a network like without large institutions that are kind of creating barriers for them uh or possibly like co-opting what they're doing and they're able to do that pretty permissionless in a way that hopefully still relies on like in the context of quadratic funding like large scale funders who do want to who have that ethos and want to see those kinds of initiatives funded so the goal of quadratic funding is not just this preference mapping but also allowing larger philanthropic entities even potentially like more Antiquated entities to sort of upgrade their funding model and hopefully still support people but with people being front and center in the decision- making process and I think that sort of way of funding is hopefully something that again like as we sort of go towards a protocol launch like the Dow was sort of one step towards decentralization for us in a similar way as radical but now in terms of the protocol what we're trying to do is allow people to create their own local ecosystem funding rounds and do that pretty independently from even operating or interacting with the Dow at all and so hopefully that fork ability becomes you know more of a trend within the ecosystem I think like that fork ability of nouns Fork ability of things that we're all talking about here is like part of the core reason we're here and that's like an important part of funding yeah yeah well with the remainder of five minutes that we have I I really want to go into how do we make sure um how do we ensure long-term sustainability of these new funding paradigms I know that there's a lot of experiments with um alternative funding paradigms like Dow swaps um and I Abby or Scott you can both you can pick up this thread but I think I'm going to calul over to you yeah cool uh so I think that there's like a couple things that we need to focus on for long-term sustainability the first is like actually truly experimenting and improving our um multistakeholder decentralized governance mechanisms because um I think a lot of organizations are suffering um from that right now and we really need to start figuring out how to build better ones so I think that that's like one one really important thing is to have really diverse um and active uh State multi-stakeholder governance that has um really good ways for Community participants to voice right um so I think like multi-stakeholder governance is one um and then I think that there's a disintermediation of funding sources um so this is anything from like experimenting with you know more independent funding sources uh like Grant Dows or um or uh uh you know decentralizing ownership away from VCS um but there's also like a lot of like inter ecosystem resilience that we can be building which I think will be like crucial for long-term sustainability of everything right so like one example of this which is something that we haven't announced yet so this is a little bit of alpha we'll probably be announcing it like next week or something um is that radical and gitcoin actually just passed um a proposal through both of their governance ecosystems um uh and we have now formed uh the public Goods Alliance in which radical and gitcoin have now become uh a top 10 delegate in each other's Dows um in an effort to increase not only participation in governance as well but to distribute ownership and influence to Mission aligned organizations in both of our Dows to support long-term resilience and so this public goods Alliance is something that's been in the works for a while between radical and gcoin but it's officially passed through governance um and it now has been formed it's something that we're going to be launching and ultimately we see becoming another form of independent process independent thought and independent funding in which we can work together as an organization scope our desires and our mandate and direct funding into public good that supports the resilience of both of our organizations and I think that these Dow toou collaborations and ecosystem resilience plays will be incredibly crucial for securing long-term sustainability of um for me I think open source infrastructure but I think Scott would also say for General Public's good funding in general and so I think we're seeing more of these inter ecosystem interactions like think of Kevin's talk today about the Dow of dows about super modularity about optimism with retrop pgf and I think we need to like really lean into these mechanisms and and these relationships because I think that that's what will keep us surviving in the future and thriving in the future yeah I think that the the beauty of web 3 is that you actually have the ability for ecosystems to naturally collaborate versus I think compete and this is part of just the built-in economics of Open Source the traditional sort of framing of any kind of like even like going back to the notion of like a Commons like there's this notion that if you take a fish like someone else is going to have that fish and so forth in the context of Open Source software any new software built is generative other people can build on it you have much more kind of funding that you can uh like deploy much more kind of like time that you can commit to something because you have much more to build on top of instead of just building from scratch those are all things that like I think lead to Dows and other kinds of like web through organizations being naturally more interdependent and being willing to take on these kinds of Partnerships and I do hope that over time we can see more folks sort of like join this Coalition join this Alliance and be part of that kind of conversation because I think that's like one of the things that we have in web 3 that hasn't really existed in previous paradigms yeah and then in closing thoughts I just want to go and um give everyone a chance to say what can people do to learn more and to participate in this designing new funding mechanism I want to kick it over to Sky first uh to yeah I ju I had one closing thought to the last conversation too that so I think the most important uh public good that we have is the planet and so there's actually an example so padag going to the company their mission was already to their mission as a company was to save the planet and now all the money they actually have is going to saving the planet right and so you don't have to have just protocols dedicating like 10% of their money to public goods you can actually have Real World Private companies and public companies give money to public goods we just need to make it we need to show them that it's okay and it's actually benefiting their ecosystem and everyone and and then yeah once it's okay then their shareholders won't just complain that they're not making more profits and so they'll all start giving money to public goods too and I think that's I think our space will show the world how to do that where can they learn more about public nouns yeah so oh so public nouns the so public nouns. WTF is the site um you can check it out ven is back there handing out some cards the public noun number 10 as part of the protocol goes to the actual public nouns Dow and the public nouns Dow has decided to give that public noun away to at the end of shelling point today and so if you go on the public nouns Twitter you can you can nominate a person that has done amazing work in the public good space and why and that person will the the group will get together and one person will win this uh and so this is effectively a retroactive public nouns noun like money uh public nouns drop so it's a re it's retroactive funding but instead of it being money it's an actual public noun which will then give them governance in the public nouns ecosystem so it combines retroactive funding plus Dow plus public nouns plus Community participation and you don't nominate you can't nominate yourself so you have to nominate someone else in the space public now um yeah so first purpose trust over Dow is always we love that I think that the more that we can be experimenting with uh mechanisms and showing people how it works the more we're actually you're going to be able to do it if you can't see it can't do it um for radical we're in the midst of this transition and there's a ton of work ahead of us and so um you can follow me which is like Abby Abbe Yore tiom TCB on Twitter and radical radical uh online to kind of like see how this transition is going we're talking a lot about it everything's public on our Forum radical. Community um and it's something that we're going to be talking more about the more we try to make this happen so um I think we have one experiment like right now in process and I'm really excited to see how it works and hopefully we're going to learn a lot about it that we can share with the ecosystem so awesome I know we're pretty much out of time if you want to run your own local grants round please like definitely getcoin is looking for more people that want to do that more projects that want to do that um if you want to support public goods we'll be doing rounds we'll be continuing to support public goods in terms of the quadratic funding rounds that we usually do and then beyond that I would just say um public goods are good just please donate any of these ways experiments let's just keep funding as many public goods as we can yeah that's all the time we have we're going to be continuing this conversation over a Devcon so I'm super excited and thank you all for joining me on this panel thank you for moderating thank you [Applause] everybody