Fireside Chat with Zooko - Zooko Wilcox O'Hearn

hello hello hey what's going on everyone i guess we i guess we said it's a fireside chat therefore we're allowed to sit just a quick note that the open bar is open now not after so yeah yeah so feel free to jump in quietly and um so we're going to try to get through some q a for about 20 minutes then we're going to open it up to questions from the audience for a couple minutes as long as there is interest so i think most people from people have been at the open bar they get to be first in line okay yes exactly they will have the best questions um so yeah just to get us started i think your reputation may precede you in this room but um zuko is a real life cypherpunk he is probably best known as the creator of z cash um some people may be surprised to hear that you also created zuko's triangle oh yeah zuko's triangle is like just an idea um in fact i don't even think i invented zuko's triangle i think other people thought of it and then they like credited to me because it was in conversation with them at the time you know how that happens i do actually i don't but that's great um so i'll skip the rest of the intro obviously your founder advisor to least authority who does our audits there are oh yeah auditor um these authorities really good security audits yes did you see what happened recently where this wallet called atomic wallet hired lease authority to do a security audit and it came out so at least authorities this company that i'm a founder of and they do a whole lot of security audits for crypto projects and atomic wallet is a wallet that is out there and supports a lot of coins and tokens and they hired least authority to do security audit but leased authorities contracts always say that they reserve the right to publicly disclose stuff to protect users even against the objections of their customer so they just now announced that they found critical dangerous flaws in atomic wallet which could threaten the user's money and they advise everyone to stop using atomic wallet even though atomic wallet disagrees so just be aware that's happening that hopefully will not happen with tally right oh so you're hiring cali's hiring lease authority for the security audits yeah they did our key ring and they're doing some contracts right now excellent those guys are really good at that awesome um all right so let's jump in right off the bat we gotta ask you about privacy um so privacy it's important it's important so i'm curious if you have any thoughts on this moment um in privacy and maybe like information warfare in general as we are possibly heading into another war this year well that's a great framing question information warfare in general it does seem to be heating up over the last like five years right like the internet is an increasingly hostile place and my vision my view is that like five and ten and fifteen and twenty years ago there was this narrative like people don't care about privacy and at the time i kind of believed it i was like oh darn people don't care about privacy they're so wrong and later i thought wait a minute those were all stories planted by google and facebook to make me think people don't care about privacy and that's not actually true people really do care about privacy yeah i mean i think the stakes for privacy are also different now like back i don't know even going back to the 70s and before i feel like privacy was a conversation around like okay how can we avoid 1984 style digital dystopia surveillance nightmare it's that and now super added to it we have if you're not protecting your data you're going to be subject to pretty much non-stop behavioral modification from the private sector and also nation 1984 was totally prophetic and everybody should read that book but you're right he missed like the ubiquitous behavior modification where your devices and everything you interact with on the internet is subtly nudging you to make them more money all the time or to get your like to to provoke you or influence you in some way for their political purposes it's either money or political power or both yeah and i think probably weird things are happening now that we won't know about for like five or ten years if ever yeah i do hope that history like survives and there are history books that are accurate someday sorry sorry to be negative it's a scary time for me in my opinion yeah yeah well okay so let's jump into i mean probably like the most celebrated resistance to surveillance capitalism is the cypherpunks um and so a lot of people maybe don't know this but the cryptocurrency phenomenon has been going on over 30 years now i think the first cryptocurrency on record was digicash made by david chom in 1989 and if my memory serves me right you moved to amsterdam in the 90s to work with david oh yeah what was that like and compared to you know where you thought we'd be in the 90s like how does the how does all this today compare is it bigger is it smaller is it just different so in the 90s the cypher in the 90s the internet was new and like the world wide web was new there weren't very many web pages and you could i remember there was a web page that would give you a link to a new web page every day you're like wow there's another webpage every day i'm going to look at that um and the cypherpunks correctly predicted or envisioned a lot of things including cryptography search engines the spread of the web and that there would be like billions of users soon um and uh you asked what it was like to go to work on digicast so digicash was the first cryptocurrency in a sense um because it was like an online internet native thing and it had privacy so that the operator of the service couldn't monitor everyone's behavior but it didn't have decentralization digicash relied on a central server and uh so that's what that's why i think it failed and you said cypherpunks are famous or whatever for resistance they're very celebrated yeah celebrated and that's there's two reasons for that uh the big one is bitcoin uh like like bitcoin was the the first real important success in my view the smaller one which was kind of a false victory was against the united states government trying to outlaw cryptography in the early days of the internet which also the cypherpunks were really active in and um the outcome of that in my view was just people started using the internet to like buy books online and so then all of a sudden congress was like oh wait maybe we'll stop trying to ban encryption for national security purposes when it turns out encryption is good for economic purposes yeah you basically couldn't have a functional economy on the internet with no encryption oh yeah it's that's a really weird alternate history you know before the cypherpunks it was the cryptographers david chom was one of them ron rivest adi shamir um ralph merkel wit diffy these are all cryptographers who were like young scientists mathematicians who you know scribble on a chalkboard every day for their living and then they happened upon these breakthroughs in cryptography the important one was called public key cryptography and there's this little told story where the united states military attempted to classify that right they had come up and this is a this is like absolutely not a conspiracy theory we know because it had happened before about 10 years earlier some british mathematicians had discovered public key cryptography and the british secret service successfully uh nationalized that and kept it secret and didn't do anything with it right like nothing happened and if the american military had succeeded at the same thing then we just wouldn't have the internet right like the internet would have lasted until attackers started attacking it and then it would have fallen apart it would have just become like a centralized broadcast medium like broadcast tv or whatever so it was these cryptographers who were basically before the cypherpunks were talking 1970s who performed really courageous civil disobedience and defied threats and pressure from the national security agency to make public huge cryptography be part of the open legacy of humanity instead of a military secret or a clipper chip yeah the clipper chip the clipper chip was a proposal to require any device that could connect to the internet and you can see this is like 1970s thinking it's like oh phones are allowed to connect to the phone network so we have a whole long book full of rules about what phones are allowed to have well any device that can connect to the internet is going to have to have this thing called a clipper chip in it which gives the fbi access to everything that device does that was a serious proposal and it was a cypherpunk named matt blaze who helped kill it by hacking it he found a flaw in the clipper ship and he published this result that said you know if congress if you go ahead and require this here's a hack that any person in the world can do to disable this thing um and that was one of the reasons why congress gave up on that whole shambles and switched to like an open economy yeah no it's it's i encourage anyone who's not familiar with this to check it out there's actually a book called crypto by steven levy that goes through all of this it's awesome i think it's like we might make it required reading on my team um but okay i want to jump back in so when zcash launched um in october 2016 um i believe it's the right month yeah um y'all launched with um at the time was like a pretty novel mechanism for funding open source development and just general development of the protocol famously you've gotten a lot of flack you've got a lot of [ __ ] from bitcoiners for this but this is aged really well because what you created then is actually not very dissimilar to what we're seeing with dow grants or things like git coin aqueduct um in the ensuing five or six years it turned out that projects the the the token holders of projects funding improvements and maintenance and support themselves is superior to depending on like some whale or mega corporation or someone or or just volunteer labor yeah yeah um is there anything that makes you like especially excited or skeptical about the way that just like foss funding and crypto works generally uh it's there's so much going on i don't even know a tenth of what's happening so that's exciting um there's probably a lot of super great ideas like uh every few months i look at the latest thing that get coin is doing and i'm like wow that's pretty awesome i wish i had time to understand that so like i like experimentation right yeah i think we're gonna see a lot more of that too um yes i encourage everyone to check out some of the stuff bitcoin is doing it is awesome um okay this maybe feeds into my next question um zcash and ethereum very different technical visions very different technical roadmaps a lot of overlap with people a lot of shared values a lot of mutual respect vitalik is an advisor to electric coin company yeah a lot of ethereum people are at zcon um let's talk a little bit about like what are some ways in which you'd like to see the two communities work together more we were talking a bit about halo it'd be cool to maybe kick off with a story about halo and hear more about that okay halo is in short it's a new zero knowledge proof system um but let me go back and tell the the history zero knowledge proofs were invented by a bunch more chalkboard scribbling mathematicians in the 1980s and then they didn't get used for anything and for decades and this is the same pattern that happened with public key cryptography and with lots of breakthroughs is that it could take 20 30 years before a scientific idea reaches real usage um and in the case of zero knowledge proofs which were even in the 80s it was zcash in 2016 that made it a real live thing that people could rely on and that first version of zcash it was the firs i'm really proud of it because it was like the demonstration the zero knowledge proofs are a real life thing that actually protect people's privacy and practice and lots of money can uh reside on it like trust in it and it doesn't get hacked but on the other hand that first version of the math was really sucky you had to have a laptop it had to have four gigs of ram it would like heat up your cpu for like 10 minutes or something to make a single transaction that was a huge leap forward in the technology in 2016. and there's another deep flaw with that math even even in addition to all of its like performance problems is that you had to have what's called a trusted setup which we designed it in zcash because zcash is like privacy first so we design the architecture so that the privacy of the user is 100 protected by just cryptography no matter what but the um monetary soundness of whether there's actually exactly 21 million zcash depends on this trusted setup and trusted setup means somebody has to create a big cryptographic number and then they swear that they deleted the other half right they didn't keep a copy and if someone did keep a copy they could then counterfeit z cash so this was a huge huge challenge we were setting out to do this and what we did is literally the most secure cryptographic ceremony ever performed at least until that date where we got six different participants who didn't know who each other were because there was like all this maximum op tech we tried to do maximum opsec and advanced operational security in advance to prevent any hackers from finding out what we're up to and then have maximum transparency immediately after the fact so we released videos and signed messages and all this stuff describing everything that had happened except for one thing which i'll get to and what we and the way it was constructed if any one of those six participants honestly deleted their secret then nobody including the other five would be able to recover that that counterfeiting key um so that was like the best thing that ever being done i think and um it still wasn't good enough right like people are not there are plenty of people who are the kind of like paranoid like self-sovereign people that i like who are unwilling to assume that at least one of these six people successfully deleted their private key as opposed to that all six of them got together in a conspiracy to counterfeit money yeah i saw david vorak at mit bitcoin expo 2019 he had a date busted set up yeah there's been a lot of criticisms and i really appreciate like you know well-intentioned honest like criticism and scrutiny and what happened was um so we invented a subsequent generation of technology which is what you can use today oh which reminds me i forgot to say every time i talk to anyone about z cash i tell them to install zec wallet on their phone so if you install zek wallet on your phone z e c wallet z e c wallet it only take like one minute and if you hit me up after i'll send you like a thousandth of a zcash just to show you how it works because it's like the experience of using it is way more impactful than like the story or the lecture okay so where was i oh okay so generation two generation one halo yeah generation one was just zero knowledge proofs actually work in practice but not very conveniently and we have the stresses that are problem generation two is what you can install on zec wallet on your phone right now and it only takes like five seconds to generate transactions on your phone which is another breakthrough on the part of my team and i'm super proud of it now uh oh and i told you there was one fact that wasn't yet revealed from the original setup ceremony there were six participants and immediately after the ceremony we review and they were all like pseudonymous and stuff and nobody knew who they were where they lived around the globe and all this stuff and immediately after the ceremony we publicly disclosed the identities of five of them and nobody has ever known other than me who the sixth participant was from the original ceremony but now generation three is coming generation three is called halo and the important thing about it there's two important things about it but one is that there's no trusted setup aspect just halo is just secure based on the math and there's no people who have any secrets that have anything to do with anything make sense so it's fully trustless um and the other thing about halo is that it's a recursive zero knowledge proof which means you can prove any arbitrarily sized uh fact about any database like the entire history of a blockchain or of all blockchains or multi-petabyte database or anything you can it's a general purpose you're knowledge proof so it is potentially going to be really useful for a lot of interesting things so now that halo is about to launch which is happening in march on zcash um and if you install zac wallet on your phone then you'll have it you'll be the first in line um then there that's the end of trust that's like trusted setups become a thing of the past and at that point we're going to reveal the identity of the sixth participant from the original trusted set up back in 2016 so stay tuned i thought we were doing this kool-aid style on stage somewhat bust through the wall [Laughter] it's just in sun um cool okay um we got one more question and i think we're going to go into qa mode and drink mode so you kind of warmed us up here but um wallet so you're you know y'all got some stuff going on i'm working on a wallet what is something that like what's a new feature that you just haven't seen anyone implement ever or that they haven't done a good job with or is there something that's just like fundamentally kind of dumb about the wa like how well it's working generally as like that's a good interaction type um i'm gonna just kind of tangent and rant about wallets as such because you ask like what's a feature and it's almost not about features like i have this simmering concept which i mostly get from my brother who's the cto chief research officer at the electric coin companies kind of like the architect of zcash and he points out that because of the way bitcoin started and because of the way the cypherpunks were all about cryptography algorithms including me like i i've invented some cryptography algorithms that pretty awesome but uh it's total like user experience is the most important thing by far and if you invent an algorithm or a protocol or something and then you said now we're going to build a user interface on top of that the user experience is going to suck that's the wrong order of operations which is what i've always done so i'm blaming myself here but the right way to do things is start with the user experience first right like what what are users able to do that they weren't previously able to do and what is it like for them when they try and that means wallets and so something i've learned that's really interesting for me as a cryptographer and like a protocol designer is it turns out um a lot of things including privacy and like cross-chain interoperation and a whole bunch of other things are primarily provided by the wallet not by the blockchain which is the opposite of how we got into this when like bitcoin came along it was originally just a blockchain right same with zcash anyway so my point is wallets are the most important thing and they're really the point of the sphere of innovation because user experience is the most important thing and the cryptography and the protocol needs to be designed to support that not the other way around i totally agree and i think that's really well said so i'm looking forward to the tally wallet and to adding zcash support yes uh i also had a question um so for devs who want to learn a little bit more about halo where should they go what should they do uh i guess you would probably just like google zcash halo and you'll find lots of information duckduckgo uh yeah that's what i meant the brave built-in search engine is pretty good i like that yeah awesome cool well um those are all my questions i think we actually got through them pretty quickly so we've got some qa time but first um can we you have to drink a drink before i'll take your questions just kidding just kidding yeah but yeah let's give this gentleman a round of applause and then go into qa thanks uh and then should i eat denver should i pass the microphone are we doing kind of a people's mic situation hi uh thank you for the talk uh how big of a threat do you think con quantum computing is to uh cryptococ cryptography i don't think it's a very big threat um i think there's a good chance quantum computers will never work and the stories you hear about quantum computers being a huge deal are uh serving the interest of like quantum computer salesmen who sell future quantum computers for billions of dollars to their large national governments um but maybe i'm wrong maybe they will eventually work and by working now it's clear that they work at like the quantum computation level but i don't think it's clear that they will ever scale up to where they could actually compute anything useful especially cryptography which is uh many times harder to compute than most other things does that make sense so i could i could go on i'm the author of a quantum safe uh digital signature algorithm which is totally the best digital signature algorithm um a really interesting fact about quantum computers is even if you do if you disagree with me and you think it could be a threat there's two threats breaking your privacy or forging your signature right and it's really interesting fact breaking your privacy happens retroactively right if they have an archive of the blockchain from 50 years ago and they can break the encryption they can now see what you did 50 years ago right but forging your signature only happens proactively right once they invent some way to forge your signature 20 years from now if by that time you upgrade to a quantum resistant digital signature scheme they can't do anything make sense anyway there's totally good cryptography for that and by the way the zcash blockchain is already better than more or less any other blockchain at being uh safe from quant future possible quantum computers retroactively violating your privacy it going guys um since z cash has the ability to have both uh p and t addresses where do you see the future of z cash when it comes to the retail marketplace of utilizing like your blockchain and technology so zcash has two different kinds of addresses um you can make you can make there's two different kinds of addresses some are called t addresses for transparent and some are called z addresses for shielded and you can make transactions between any combination right and whatever goes into or out of a t address is visible on the blockchain so it has the transparency property like bitcoin and ethereum does and whatever goes into or out of a z address is invisible on the blockchain and everybody who installs sec wallet is going to see this from themselves later the question was how do i see this impacting the future of retail participation yeah yeah um overall so zcash is is basically the leader in my view um monero has a bigger market cap and probably a few more users like 2x or something depending it's hard to tell but but but zcash is is by far the best technologically and it's the most widely recognized among the ones that are good enough technologically and um in my view the fact that it has both transparent and shielded functionality is good because it gives those users options and sometimes people want transparency that's an interesting thing i've been seeing about defy and crypto and web3 in general is that sometimes people treat the transparency as a big part of the value add like since we have this radical transparency now we can do things in d5 that we wouldn't have wanted to do if you know in the bad old days when you had to trust some third party anyway so i think it's good in short hi um i've heard a lot like about how web 3 one of the main differences from web to is just like digital ownership i was wondering like you have a wealth of knowledge on kind of the evolution of the internet so i was wondering if you could give us some thoughts about how that changes like the structure of the internet um yeah yeah i think that's a really good question and i'm gonna refer to my friend jay graber who's uh now the lead of project blue sky which is twitter's attempt to spin out a new non-profit whose job is to decentralize twitter so that's jay she's a former z cash developer and she recently posted an analysis of this and she said oh i can't remember quite the cool word she used it was like the first version like web one you had to run your own server and run your own website which i did it was pretty cool um but that meant you had control of it right so that was sort of part of what was magic about the world wide web was it had that end that end user ownership of their own stuff and then web 2 was all about end users creating stuff which then a giant company controlled and like you say i think the promise of web 3 is just returning to where the end users retain their own ownership of their own product or contributions that's a simple model that is very motivating to me yeah it's easier to manage a key than to run a server yeah it's easier well yeah maybe not uh i was gonna say um zuko maybe talk a little bit about the privacy sovereignty stuff i think that's a good angle that maybe yeah there's this very there's a very simple thing which seems super obvious to me and i i don't know i'll be interested to see if you agree or disagree but um like bitcoin came out clearly as a part of the cypherpunk movement now i don't know who satoshi was or if they like i think it's polite to use people's preferred pronouns and also their preferred names um so i so attempting to dox satoshi really annoys me and i never participate in it but um satoshi although i don't know anything about any more of their identity they were clearly a part and parcel of the cypherpunk culture and community and the way they operated their goals were political and their means were technological and that's the cypherpunks in a nutshell and satoshi hal finney and literally 100 of the people involved in the early days i don't know if you know but i'm the author of the first blog post ever posted on the internet about bitcoin and the initial bitcoin.org homepage that satoshi put up linked to my my homepage back when we all had our own homepages um so i was like part of the community from the very beginning and it's what really annoys me is revisionist history i hate revisionist history i'm like a obsessive accuracy maximalist so what really pisses me off is when i hear people saying oh bitcoin was always supposed to expose everyone's information to everyone else that's the point i'm like no wait i was there for the first 10 years straight 100 of the people involved considered end user privacy to be half of the main value add independence from central banks right independence from central banks and independence from all the power structures and policemen that want to control everyone else that was a unified value proposition satoshi and how finney and others literally talked about if they could use zero knowledge proofs to fix bitcoin's privacy problem and the reason they couldn't is it was like six years too early for the scientific inventions that we later implemented can i keep ranting i forget where i was going with that okay one more thing listen i gotta tell you you cannot have decentralization censorship resistance self-sovereignty you cannot have ownership of your own stuff without privacy all right like if you're the nazis and your job is to ban books you don't have to intercept every truck coming in and inspect the trucks all you have to do is say our informants are watching you if we find out you're dealing you're reading a banned book you're going to regret it if you don't have privacy then the most powerful least moral agent in the room can control everyone else that's it so privacy is 100 necessary for everything that we as a community value [Applause] uh first of all thank you for the rants that's why we're here my question is both security and usability related uh for the end user using either z cash or zek wallet there's the the saying don't trust verify but when you're working with users they don't do either does zcash and zec wallet have any features to protect the users from themselves and perhaps accepting contracts that they may not understand or sharing keys that they may not want to yeah that's a great question i love it um there's something which is both a benefit and a drawback of zcash is that like bitcoin it's relatively limited and dumb and that means there's fewer ways to get confused and shoot yourself on the foot right so there's no general purpose smart contracts which is terrible because there's all these wonderful creative experiments that are happening way faster than i can keep up with because of general purpose smart contracts starting with ethereum but on the other hand when you install zek wallet you will see that there are not very many buttons and they basically do what you expect one is like you you can hold up your qr code and i will scan it and send you a thousandth of fizzy cash the other is you can click send and scan someone else's qr code like it's it's all pretty self-explanatory um i was going to say something else about the ux but i forget but yeah i mean there's not a good way to get users to verify um for three years i was working at a wallet company called casa and we would tell people to like manually verify [ __ ] on their treasure and in the app and we'd give them the opportunity to do that and people who were going to do it would do it and people who weren't wouldn't so i think it's an unsolved it's not solved problem hello uh so thank you so much for the talk you are one of the legends in the space and so it's wonderful to get to hear you oh thanks i wanted to hear uh well two two questions number one what is your opinion about uh tornado cash number two for someone who might have a lot of value on ethereum and ether say stable coins what is the best way if we did want to access zcash some sort of atomic swap functionality or bridge functionality that maintains the privacy great questions um tornado cache i don't know a ton about i know that the first version of it has now been or is in the process of being upgraded uh to where it has more like zcash-like functionality to where you can send and receive privately whereas the first version was more of a mixer concept where you like deposit and then later withdraw to yourself and and that's bad so i'm glad they've glad they've upgraded from that the second question is if you have some eth and you want to play with zcash how do you convert in a privacy preserving way before i answer the question let me say you don't have to do privacy preserving at every hop this is a thing that people don't people sort of have a an intuitive misunderstanding of but if you play with it on your phone you'll and like look on the block explorer to see what is not shown about you when you do things um you'll see that it is a totally valid process to register with coinbase or gemini and like upload your [ __ ] driver's license and blah blah blah is this being recorded and um and now coinbase knows everything about you right like whatever and then buy zcash on coinbase for ethereum and then when you withdraw that z cash out of coinbase to your phone suddenly it's yours again right like from that moment forward it's like you withdrew cash out of an atm and the bank has literally no knowledge or control or responsibility for what you do with it from that moment forward so that works fine but some z cashers not me but a bunch of other z cashers are currently working on integrating thor chain maybe that will end up being the answer you prefer okay yeah hi um i'm a huge fan of zcash and one of the biggest traders i would say and i'm not trading drugs on it legit transactions um but yeah my question is about um the goal of zcash so as as i understand the goal is to get transactions private and get the privacy up but are there any future goals that you would like to reach in this space oh yeah we have unbounded future goals we're going to do all the things eventually especially if we continue to have like this exponential takeoff of users and technology and money and new ideas and whatever um the short term like two or three year goals for zcash that my company's working on i got to clarify real quick my company is about one third of the development teams supporting zcash measured by budget although we do punch above our weight measured by output but there's multiple other organizations that are doing really good stuff for zcash including the thor chain thing but my company's plans for the next two or three years are to make our own wallet even though there are many good z cash wallets like zec wallet lite zec wallet that you're installing right now uh there are already many goodsy cash wallets but we've decided we want to have a feedback loop of the user experience and the core cryptography co-evolving together so we want the cryptographers to be sitting down side by side with the wallet designers day after day so that's one thing we're doing the second thing is switching from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake which about a tenth to a quarter of people seem to hate but i'm betting very few people in this room hate that um and that's going to be a huge effort like literally years and years ago like i'm one of the people who thought of the concept of proof of stake before i heard it from anyone else there's probably three or four or five people maybe including vitalik who who had the same experience i did and for literally like seven years or something now i've been waiting to see if ethereum can demonstrate that switching proof of work to proof of stake works like how does it work how long does it take how do the users respond user experience impacts et cetera so at some point in the next two or three years we at zcash intend to do the same thing and the third part is cross chain interop like my feeling is and i could be wrong but i have this sense that like the era of everyone congregating on the same l one together and that's where you get the most benefit is gonna shift and then there will be the era of people who use different tools and technologies all interoperating with each other and that's even a bigger network effect but that's that requires some new scientific work which halo might help with the zero knowledge proof and it also requires better user experience like new wallets or better wallet metaphors or something yeah hi um so given z cash paved the way for this innovation i was wondering if you could share your thoughts on zero knowledge roll ups well i really like them in concept uh a lot um i'm really proud of the fact that all of the current generation of zero knowledge roll ups like most of them have derived from the halo scientific lineage that my team discovered uh and then the other scientific lineage of starks which were also founding scientists of zcash by the way so some people that i've worked with are the founders of all of the modern um zero knowledge proof systems scientifically there's a lot i don't understand in engineering terms i do have a really strong engineering intuition that optimistic roll-ups are just a terrible like temporary hack because zero knowledge proofs weren't good enough we didn't have the trustless scalable fast zero knowledge proofs ready you know three or so years ago when people started designing optimistic roll-ups is that okay just say that any any other questions oh no i think we're going to get sandman in a second but i just wanted to ask everyone to give zuko another round of applause and