Blockchain Philanthropy: Leveraging the Chain for Good | European Blockchain Convention

[Music] okay good afternoon uh it's being crypto by the way not Bell crypto um my name is Jess I'm head of global growth at being crypto which basically means that I'm in charge of our localization we are present in 20 different languages and that obviously covers hundreds of different markets hundreds of different countries within those languages we we uh roughly have around 11 million monthly users um and actually before I got into the crypto space 5 years ago my background was in sustainable development so I was working in both humanitarian and conservation projects in Africa southeast Asia and it was during that time that I realized that even with the best intentions um there are problems with what actually happens on the ground so even if you've got supports and you know people sending relief from different places the reality of what really happens on the ground uh in the most efficient way is sometimes a different story and so this is where I got kind of interested in how can we improve that how can we make everything a little bit more um clear and and transparent um I'm really happy today that we've got such an interesting discussion blockchain philanthropy leveraging the chain for good something a bit different and we've got a really we're down to four panelists now but still we've got a really diverse panel we've got people who are from uh more of a web three native uh project philanthropic project and we've also got people from more of a traditional uh web to uh nonprofits that are also utilizing blockchain for different ways to improve operations in in different ways um so yeah let's start off by everybody giving their introductions and at the same time when you give your introduction I think it would be good to give uh a quick definition of what blockchain philanthropy means to you great um well I already mentioned my name um earlier um I work for Doctors Without Borders I handle all matters linked to income diversification today um and Community Building um I've been working for Doctors Without Borders for uh longer than I can think um and most importantly for us blockchain philanthropy um is really about leveraging the possibilities and the power of blockchain today in support of our social mission in support of our patients and in support of the communities that we help all around the world uh I'm Griff green my project is gith as well as many other projects in the web 3 space especially the ethereum circles uh I really when I think of nonprofits and and crypto philanthropy I really think of not only the classic like helping uh the homeless and and saving the environment but also web 3 public goods like open source code and basically any kind of public good right right public goods being uh things that are non-rivalrous and non-excludable basically any projects that that are providing value to Society at large and can't have a business model so they usually ask for donations and my focus is actually can we build these can we upgrade what nonprofits and open source communities are doing uh and give them economic models so that they could even one day out compete the government to provide public services to society I'm Nara from Giga Giga it's a partnership between UNICEF and itu the international telecommunications Union to connect every school in the world to the Internet by 2030 um and through that also connect communities and young people that live around these schools to information opportunity and choice um one of the things that we do is to or we are trying to do is to transform the connectivity ecosystem and connectivity industry through technology including blockchain and in that I would agree with what kryp just said um I wouldn't Define blockchain for philanthropy as we look into it more from the vent like we call it as a venture so usually look into blockchain it should bring value to the user it should fit into products that we are building to make sure that we are delivering value to governments to our users and through that H build a mechanism or a platform to more efficiently deliver connectivity to SCH and beyond that hi everyone I'm letia I'm the CEO of flake so basically what we are doing is giving access to our community uh water and its economy working with many different water sources around the globe so for me blockchain and philanthropy like we can actually reach a new Dynamic Community Helping with direct crypto donation for instance and for me blockchain is also really like really relevant to build trust because nowadays many many people have suspicions and they don't want to donate anymore because they're like wondering what how their donations are used and with blockchain having everything on chain is actually bringing back the trust between the actually nonprofit organizations and the donors okay during the first round of questions I really want to dive into uh do you really need need blockchain for this thing because not just in uh the philanthropic sector but in many projects across the crypto space often that's my first thought you know is this just a a marketing gimmick do you really need blockchain to deliver this this uh service that that you have is this really improving your operations or is this just something a buzz word for you so let's start with Mario um yeah at at doctors with Without Borders you I know you've got a lot of plans for different ways that you're going to incorporate blockchain technology um but you're currently using it for rallying new supporters um and fundraising efforts can you explain a little bit more about how smart contracts and blockchain are streamlining your your efforts absolutely um I I think it's important first of all to highlight an element that some of you might know but we are um a financially independent organization uh meaning that over 98% of our 2.3 billion Euro uh budget which is our yearly budget comes from private donations uh comes from private entities come from private individuals this Independence gives us a unique standpoint uh in the sector in terms of working choosing where we decide to work based on needs exclusively no agendas preserving this financial Independence is key uh for us the second thing is values uh values in the communities people who recognize themselves in such an approach people who like us in the blockchain community believe that there is a way outside of you know the current system and the possibility for us through blockchain today to reach an incredible number of people we cannot reach in our usual means the possibility to have um passive income meaning less expenses to generate that income uh coming in and the possibility really to together address and support communities around the world where we decide to intervene and have this approach that has always been the approach that my organization has chose to adopt using you know links and leveraging Civil Society for us to be able to do that uh this is what blockchain gives us today uh it's also about Innovation it's also about doing things differently those are all things that spoke to us and looking at how a very practical use today of that technology generating funds reaching out to an incredible incredibly High number of people is really something today that uh we couldn't do with the existing with the existing means um we are an organization we are a web 2 organization this is the beginning for us in the web 3 organization but for us I think really it goes beyond just a technical aspect but having a smart contract today live that allows us to do that uh it's something completely new for us but it's something that is exactly in the continuity of how we built our organization and how we look at humanitarian relief meaning us deploying where the needs are and not following any type of agenda so preserving this financial Independence is key and we firmly believe that blockchain allows us to do so speaking of donations Griff you mentioned that you think Charities are kind of a solution to government failures and this is kind of the mission of of givers uh how do you think that blockchain uh integrating into Phil philanthropy is going to change the donation space yeah I mean I think Doctors Without Borders is a perfect example of this uh when governments fail to provide value to society that's Society demands people start nonprofits and like Doctors Without Borders is a great example of well you know there's a government agenda to commit atrocities all over the world around Wars and famine and like uh embargos and Doctors Without Borders will just go and support them what because of the needs not following the agenda right but then you guys rely on donations you actually rely on sacrifice of wealthy individual uals and and just the common person to care about that and it's a it's really sad to me because it's kind of a win lose economy right it's like value is created but yet it requires sacrifice and that's not very efficient right I I really love these markets and when I saw when I'm learned about Bitcoin this is like 2013 I really got into it uh it just blew my mind with the possibilities and the value that Bitcoin itself as a public good creates anyone in the world can receive money from anyone else in the world it's a true infrastructure Financial infrastructure that anyone can use it's not paid for by taxes and it's not paid for by donations it's paid for by issuing a currency and then uh creating demand for that currency this model is really mind-blowing because it's actually the same model that governments use to provide a value to society governments issue a currency and then they print that money to make value for their currencies this is what governments do and it's also what Bitcoin does right the demand for the currency is taxes and the uh way that they fund their projects that are supposed to be creating social good for society is usually by printing money honestly a large part of it is from printing money and some of it is also from the taxes that come in and so Bitcoin actually is like a free market solution for providing one public service for society which is financial infrastructure that anyone can use uh anyone in the world can create a Bitcoin address and receive it from anyone else in the world so with gith our goal is like how can we take this model and actually allow nonprofits to enter web 3 and use this model to create economies around the value they produce I know it seems really high level and far-fetched but this is the way that we can make the societal demand for public goods and societal demand for projects like uh that UNICEF supports or Doctors Without B support and allow them to actually have free market dynamics and that's what excites me the most at the same time we really focus on donations because that's where we're at and that's is how we can onboard uh nonprofits and uh and public goods into the crypto space and so we try to make uh games around that economic games and donation games to support people's uh entrance into web 3 from the public goods sector Jasper from glow dollar isn't here today but I know Griff works very closely with him um it's so glow dollar is a stable coin aiming at at ending World poverty we know that stable coins are very good for protecting against inflation very popular in in Latin America for example um but Griff can you explain a little bit more about how stable coins can be used for for public good yeah this is this is a perfect example so you don't think about it but uh there's a reason that uh Goldman Sachs started Ser uh is bought huge share of circle and you know uh uh tether is just making money hand over fist and they just launched a stable coin you know like where's the money being created well they buy bonds they they use that Capital to actually generate other revenue and glow dollar does the same thing but instead of uh giving wealth to their investors like usdc and tether do they actually give that wealth back to the society they their goal is to end poverty right now they're funding mostly web 3 public goods because that's what crypto people care most about and crypto people is Their audience so uh they they use uh USD glow to actually the interest that they earn from USD glow Holdings is actually given back to society and it's a perfect example of funding public goods using an economic system where there's no donations there's no taxes people need stable coins they just want to transmit value to each other like in gith we use it for our matching pools uh we'll we'll get uh you know $50,000 and we have to hold it in a pool for 2 weeks and then distribute it to communities we could hold it in tether and make the the CEOs of uh bitfinex rich or we could hold it in USD glow and uh make Society more wealthy so that's what we choose to do we choose we choose the stable coin that supports the community uh so uh and then the projects get that stable coin and while they're holding it it's supporting the community when they need to sell it they sell it uh and and so the stable coins provide value but this is the magic there's no taxes there's no donation really they're just Pro creating an economic system that supports the betterment of mankind thanks Griff uh I want to talk a little bit more about tangible on the ground impacts uh Leticia can you explain a little bit about how how Lake does that yeah sure um to give you maybe a bit more of context so Lake we are our W rwa sorry reward asset project so we leverages the blockchain technology to actually um invite everyone to a new water economy so as I said earlier we um uh give our community access to water and its economy working with a lot of water sources around the globe but as we know like billion of people they don't have any access they won't have any access to our ecosystem they don't have any access to water to crypto donations to even like electricity so that's the reason why at Lake we decided to support and finance uh uh philanthropic initiatives So within our ecosystem we have a a component called donate water so actually we connect directly our community to nonprofit organizations so how does it work it will be like we're going to verify uh Charities and once they're verified and approved we're going to uh list them on our portal for our actually leury token holders or our community to give uh their token directly to those associations and besides encouraging uh those crypto donation direct crypto donations uh leg decided to actually Finance themselves like our we decided to finance ourself like um humanitarian Mission and water sh projects so by Design our ecosystem uh transfer 30% of our portal profit to a public fund that's going to finance actually uh Water charity projects so I don't know if you get it but because it's by design it means that never mind for which reason someone is buying our electri token they can come to our ecosystem enjoy our services like buy water sell water they can enjoy the ecosystem and even if they're not here to help help people because it's by Design and it's taking from our profit we are actually uh including our community in the fight of water scarcity and more our users are using our ecosystem more this 30% is going to grow and uh actually we uh we have started with our first mission in Sagal back in June we have um funded five worlds in five different regions uh in cak which is actually known for its critical situation around water scarcity and we want to do more than that so it means that we are building a foundation that's going to be fueled by those 30% and then having tangible impact on the ground in Africa of course but in Asia there is also even like we don't think about it but even in Canada they have some issues with water polluted water so this is what we H to do with Lake Nar you uh talked about the fact that gigo is using crypto as a kind of innovative financing option you've got your um staking um and your connectivity credits can you explain a little bit about how you're solving the issues around equity and making sure that the most um undeserved remote communities are getting the help that they need sure um one of the things that Giga is doing through crypto and blockchain is to look into new financing models to connect the schools but also to sustain this connectivity over time and make make a sustainable or find a sustainable business model for that um we are doing that both through mobilizing new resources and new funding but also uh redistributing more efficiently or better uh giving access to existing resources and I can give examples of how we are doing both of these things in the first one we are looking into staking um so we did a pilot in Rwanda where through a partnership with etherum Foundation where they donated the 32th for I taking not we stake a node um and then the returns are going into connecting schools um this is generating I believe it's every three months over $1,000 so that means that over $4,000 a year and that allows we are transferring that to a Telco in Rwanda and they are using this money to pay for the ongoing School connectivity fees uh this way we are finding a sustainable way of funding or self maintaining connectivity for f School in Rwanda and you could imagine a world or a future where either each school has a node or you could have clusters of a schools with a node and through that you find a way to to find funding for connecting schools and we are also similar to what you just described now building a Global Network for that uh looking into impact taking where different people can uh donate either their yields their returns or at least part of it uh for connecting schools for or different social caes so we are also doing that at the moment and expanding this like one experiment in Rwanda to a Global Network and H doing that to to mobilize more funding um and then if we look more into the how we are uh looking into or using blockchain to to better uh manage and give access to existing resources um we are building a Marketplace similar to carbon credits A connectivity credits Marketplace to incentivize providers to to connect a difficult to connect or remote schools and looking into equity for that what we believe is that resources are there there is funding for connectivity and many times they are not properly used they are underutilized not properly spent and the same happens with infrastructure and you have either governments that own backbone that it's not being used uh Telos that have fiber nodes that are not fully utilized uh and we are building this marketplace where you promote infrastructure sharing so for example a government could give we are already like piloting and building Pilots for this but a government would give cheaper access to their backbone or free access to their backbone if the telor provider connects schools in exchange uh and the same happens with other funding sources like usfs that are mismanaged and using this Marketplace and this token to increase accountability and be able to track uh the flow of money through the entire value chain of connectivity yeah in general from a kind of psycho psychological human behavior perspective I feel like one of the main reasons people don't donate more is because they don't exactly know where that money's going so can anybody think of any examples um where blockchain is helping to solve this issue or how it could help to solve this issue in the future yeah I can I can go I think you know we started looking into blockchain philanthropy when we saw the amount of solidarity and the amount of donations that happened when the Ukraine war started uh that was really good starter point for us to see how much people wanted to give back and how much people wanted to support efforts we also saw how much of that money never made it uh to to Ukraine or to help Ukrainian people and unfortunately to your point uh Jessica this is really the the sad reality of people praying on good intentions now the beauty of blockchain is literally just being able to trace your donation and knowing where it goes um is one aspect but also connecting blockchain connecting you to actors that want to thrive on transparency and on accountability that you are not necessarily aware of in uh I want to very humbly say we're one of many uh even if I'm biased of course but uh there are people who are legitimately trying to do some good and are able to demonstrate that your donation or your support actually makes it to the ground and demonstrate to you how that donation makes it to the ground now when you try to give to an organization in general you will look at how much of your donation actually goes to the implementation of the program and the activities because all organization all big ones have a percentage that goes to fundraising costs and our organization Prides itself on having one of the lowest rates in the planet but however it's still not 100% of what you're giving blockchain allows you actually to reduce that uh as we go uh it's passive income uh it's automated income and that's very interesting because it means that at the end of the day we are able to help more people we are able to help even differently with that but we are able to connect to people who want to give who are able more than before to see what is the actual difference that they are making uh on the ground so uh I really look at it from one improving return on investment automation uh but also looking into really connecting people in a different way and in a way that just was not possible up until now Griff how how does gith uh address this concern over trust where the money is actually going we do it in a few ways I mean I think it's harder with crypto today than it will be with crypto in the future because in the end you know you donate to a nonprofit with crypto and they still have to convert it to whatever currency they're going to really use and distribute it to people who end up uh you know needing it and usually those people are not technically Savvy enough to hold crypto let to just be honest and I feel like we need way better tools because once we have tooling that people can actually use then it's just end to end complete transparency uh the money came here to this organization then it went to this person and and here's who they are this is their wallet and it's completely publicly traceable end to end and that's the magic right now what we do is we actually uh do quadratic funding which is a really cool innovation in the web 3 space where we'll put up a matching pool we'll find sponsors uh like giveth giveth been around for a long time so we have an incredible foothold in the ethereum ecosystem lots of people love giveth we we helped launch uh a lot of standards in the ethereum ecosystem we promoted uh we actually ran the first scaling conference in ethereum to like you know before l2s and rollups we did uh open source block explorers now we we've we we've done all these uh uh initiatives within the ethereum space so we have a lot of like followers there and we almost uh because of that following we actually can approach projects and get sponsorships for uh for promoting what they're doing trying to make this win-win and get donations uh doing their marketing for them basically right so they'll donate to our matching pool and uh there'll be let's say $150,000 in a matching pool and it will get distributed based off of the donations on chain that are made on our platform so that that we're actually almost it's almost like voting where uh the more individuals that donate to different projects the more percentage of the matching pool that those projects will get and that is all verifiable on chain so you can actually it's like this matching pool is distributed based off of in onchain donations that anyone can see uh but the main way that we really provide transparency with for blockchain donations is actually not through onchain activity but it's by being an independent verification agent uh which we are decentralizing now but any project on gith to be on G to be verified on giveth we have a team that actually looks into them make sure they have a history of success and make sure that they they are going to provide a real Public Service something of value that anyone can enjoy a real public good and I think that that individual work that like offchain like human centered work of just diving into the projects to ensure kind of like charity navigator that the projects you're donating to on gith are actually legitimately making the world a better place uh helps a lot so that you as a donor don't have to do all the research you know that we're doing it for you and we have the credibility to back it up can I maybe we add something perfect um and it's about the importance of the end to endend crypto a flow that's I think very important but also challenging at the moment at least for us as UNICEF of course it's recation from organiz big or organizations governments volatility of crypto and therefore usually still even if the donations are coming in crypto we convert them into Fiat and then the Dem man is used in Fiat usually that's still the way we are trying to find ways to to change that however we did manage to have this crypto fund that UNICEF it was set up I I don't know maybe already like four years ago or so even five um that's able to hold crypto it's the only entity at the at UNICEF at the moment that it's able to hold and make crypto transfers directly to to companies and startups um and I think it's an example also to prove that this is possible and start growing from there but clearly it reduces transaction costs it's faster it's more transparent because you see the the flow of money end to end and and this fund Direct invests in companies that are in Emerging Markets using crypto uh but again it's still a lot or long way to go to uh be able to use similar models in the rest of the organization or with government um and I just would like to add um actually because Mass adoption is not really yet there uh there's still of course some suspicions because you you get the first step because it's on blockchain so it's public but at some point uh if you want to you know invest in some Charities or be on the ground having an impact you have to cash out at some point so then you lose the the the track right but there are some solutions to help in the meantime that we're going to have mass ution it's for example the uncapsulated nft data uh data meta so it's that it's actually a temper proof data so it means that within this nft you can put like as many information as you want so it means that you can have per Mission you could have an nft that gives all the details that gives the the details of the expenses the receipt you can have proof of delivery uh even testimonies or proof of contact like so it just put it everything that happened offchain could be onchain in the meantime like that everything's going to be trustable to from A to Z so this is something for example we're going to use at Lake because at some point even if you you know we have this 30% we will have to cash out to actually pay the people that's going to dig the wells and everything we cannot pay them with crypto so it means that we will have to cash out but we're going to um issue those nft and within those nft we will give all the details all the receipt everything that happen offchain is going to be unchain make sure we build the trust and people knows like how we spend uh this fund and how it helped and what was the impact on the ground so I think we we still have some tools I would say today and in the future when Mass adoption will be here then it's going to be sold out because you know um sold out because you you will see everything but now you right now you cannot see well and and just just to dive into both of that this this problem of uh the last the last mile basically right it's like the we need tools in crypto like I'm actually wearing the shirt right now unicorn. e it's a this has been such a problem for gith that we're actually building a wallet where it's super basic super simple uh you can't get fish like cuz web 3 is such a scary place there's a reason people don't want to hold crypto what the hell is a seed phrase how do you save it what do you do with it you when you onboard someone you have to scare them for half an hour about all the scams they could run into and it's just not even tenable it's just like listen I'll convert the crypto for you and send you some money right that's just the right solution for basically everyone but we need wallet infrastructure to solve this problem because if you could have a basic wallet that has restricted capabilities where you can't be fished you don't need a zerox address instead you have an ens identity instead of having to worry about all these chains that's hidden from you but still make it non-custodial right then we could build wallets that are safer than PayPal and the technology actually exists and people are building it besides me uh there's a lot of people building these tools so I think in a year from now like at the next conference we'll be having this conversation and you guys will all have your own wallets and that last mile will be solved what were your guys biggest hurdles when choosing to incorporate blockchain technology into your organizations was it like uh regulation was it just uh understanding the concept of it what what was the biggest challenge that you faced and how did you overcome it um I would say for a project because we're Global so it means that we want to give access to water to everybody uh so the the bigger challenge for us is actually the mass adoption because you know in many developing countries they don't have any like blockchain crypto infrastructure so it means that even if it's blockchain you know you reduce the value chain like cutting intermediaries because you want to reach the final beneficiaries or at least the closest you can the issue is that even if you you have you give them like direct crypto donation they cannot use it it because in many developing countries they they don't have anything they're not crypto-friendly yet or they don't have like you know they're not even on the way to accept crypto so it means that they cannot pay with it they cannot even cash out the bank doesn't accept anything I would give for example the the example of Sagal where we have done our first humanitarian Mission uh many of them most of them they don't even have bank account but then they pay with their Mobile Pay so it's Mobile Pay and when you discuss with them you know it could be so much easier to get these crypto donations but then they they cannot pay anywhere they cannot even cash out so it means that for us to have a a tangible impact to have a bigger impact it would be actually to have this Mass adoption happening to make sure we we can actually you know have those direct donation and that people can actually use it in real life so this was our bigger project the bigger challenge sorry in our case probably like two or even probably but one of the misconception between crypto and blockchain um they are not the same thing um and that blockchain doesn't necessarily mean or involve crypto and you can still use blockchain for different purposes without uh having to to deal or hold crypto so I think that that's one and making people understand that you can have yeah an application using blockchain and you don't necessarily have to even be aware of it h it's just an up as you say that you are using there is a technology behind it and the user doesn't need to know what's behind that app or that solution uh and the other one with regulation um many countries governments or people say that um it's not allowed uh but it's not that regulation doesn't allow it's that there is no regulation or at least often times the problem is that there is no regulation and if when you don't have this regulation people are scared of doing something with it because they don't want to they don't want to be the ones responsible of maybe doing something wrong or something that's not clear regulate it so rather than not being allowed I would say that there is no clear regulation around it and therefore people are more um scared or risk aers of trying new things with blockchain and crypto maybe in our organization and some of you might laugh but the biggest challenge about blockchain was not to talk about blockchain rather actually talk about blockchain philanthropy um I think the change manager is a component that's you know part of every big organization such as ours it takes time it's heavy but what was the most important bit for us was really to go beyond the technological aspect itself and say we will surround ourselves with the right Partners we'll surround ourselves with the right experts and that's exactly what we've done so let us not worry about that but let us worry about what's behind it who are the people behind it why would people support us why would they join us um why would people give to us and not give to other um how would we gain credibility within the community to your earlier Point Jessica how can this really appear as a strategy and a new change and a new way of doing things and not just a oneoff um or a gimmick so uh it was initiating the conversation that was a big challenge first and initiating it in those terms um the second aspect was then dragging every body together uh you talk about regulatory aspect you talk about legislation you talk about compliance uh we're lucky enough to uh work on this project in Switzerland the environment is very conducive for us to be able to consider a project like that but as well um to to to deal with an environment that is sufficiently regulated to provide us before anybody else with the guarantees that you know this world is not as scary as it unfortunately is and that if we do it in a certain way we're going to be able we're going to be just fine and the last the last challenge is just to keep in mind as well where we come from we're a 53y old organization um we have uh a big supporter community that doesn't necessarily understand blockchain or doesn't necessarily understand why we would be doing that and that's also important and again so I go back to my initial Point let's not talk about blockchain let's talk about blockchain philanthropy and then everything is going to be okay and actually this is how we've managed to get to the point we are uh we are at today to round everything off uh what do we think is in store during the next 10 years for the role of blockchain in philanthropy what should organizations prepare for uh maybe I can go just very quickly and wrap this up on my side but a bit to your point uh will start doing more and more transactions in crypto so we won't have to convert uh the funds and then I dream of a um a humanitarian token or an msf token in our case that will have an actual value and that will bring all the guarantees of of transparency traceability and confidence um no go okay I would say uh several things uh first I think educ is really key uh for nonprofit organization but actually for everyone it this like the way pre space is evolving so much you have to keep it up you have to know like the new protocols and everything to actually make sure the blockchain philanthropy has an impact and it's going to grow so it means that right now when you have nonprofit organizations that don't know anything about it it means that they cannot actually collect crypto crypto donation so it's preventing actually to get new donations and even for the financial the final sorry beneficiaries they cannot even use it if they don't know how to do it so education for me will be key um then also choose properly where you base your Association organization because if you are in a non- crypto friendly country good luck so you really need to choose carefully uh this and I would also add um that for every new Joiner in the crypto space it's really important to provide um userfriendly web tree interface it should be seamless for the for the like the experience should be seamless for those users they should like actually use crypto not knowing that this is crypto so then this is again the way to for Mass adoption and this is how we're going to get a bigger impact so this for me those three things are really important I think M it's already been said about the Last Mile and making sure that we include the last mile that we are able to reach even the harder to reach and that they are able to benefit from uh the different solutions that will be built I'm going to go crazy Off the Wall here in in 10 years I think you'll see a lot of entrepreneurs entering the space like Lake who actually are running businesses that are providing value to society and competing to provide public goods in 10 years from now I think we'll Crack the Code of how to create digital scarcity around real world abundance so you you can create a digitally scarce token and an economy around that token that appreciates the value that normally considered philanthropic projects are are adding to the world and that and then entrepreneurs will enter that space because they have a way to make money while making the world a better place and that's what most people want to do that is lovely thank you Griff uh thank you very much it's lunchtime wo thank you so much everyone for listening to us