Native #BUIDLers' Night

Um glad that you made it on time. So um native giving an introduction is an infrastructure layer that allows uh the exchange to be made in the feature. So native itself we want to allow every project to be able to power themselves to beat their own decks with just a couple of minutes. So you can imagine native as something like Shopify for web three whereby users are able to very easily integrate and build their own decks onto their website and dabs as easy as um like just a couple of minutes and uh be there to earn their fees. So um uh native itself allows users to be able to fully control their UX liquidity management and also pricing just like how Shopify allows their users to be able to control their checkout inventory and pricing.

Yeah. Hey guys, yourself. So uh sorry experience. Uh okay. So I'm tasked with a funny fun fact about myself.

Uh, this is a very random ball. That's not right now. I'm asking your experience. Oh. Um, I'm going to say that I'm very jetlagged.

So, I actually only slept like I woke up at 3:00 a.m. today and like now I haven't slept at all. So, that'll probably be my funny fact right now. Can't process things right now.

But passing over to Sid over here. Hey guys, uh, I am Sadhhat Lalwani, CEO of Range Protocol. Uh so with range protocol we are trying to build the infrastructure for onchain market making on top of concentrated liquidity amms like unis swap v3. Uh we strive to be like the heart of decentralized finance pumping liquidity through the whole ecosystem and sort of making the whole defi efficient. uh on a high level to understand what we do consider us like a skilled chef trying to balance the ingredients of a dish in this way like trying to balance the ingredients of the market for sort of creating a very uh efficient restless financial infrastructure for anyone with an inter internet connection to access.

So uh right now how we see is basically there are three main players in the ecosystem the traders liquidity providers and the project teams themselves who who issue the token. So uh we want to optimize the experience for traders by optimizing the interaction for the other participants. So what we would allow is say project teams to create deeper liquidity for their token in a very capital efficient manner. And in terms of the uh liquidity providers, we will allow passive liquidity providers an opportunity to earn yield on top of their assets in a very risk basis uh managed manner. So yeah, that's on a high level what we do.

Hi y'all. I'm Daniel Helm. I lead Devril at Scroll. Scroll is a layer 2 network. It is a ZK rollup.

If you're unfamiliar with what that means, basically we are a layer on top of Ethereum that for users and devs looks and feels just like using Ethereum, but they get the benefits of cheaper gas costs, faster transaction times, more throughput. Um, we can achieve this through the magic of zero knowledge proofs. Um, and if you're interested in the technical bits, I don't know that we'll get into it in this panel. Um, but we're really excited to be delivering a developer ecos developer uh experience that um means you can bring all your tooling and uh code straight from Ethereum mainet into an L2 ecosystem uh using the the latest and scaling technologies. And my past is uh working in Devril.

I do developer relations. I love to talk to developers. If you're building in the hackathon, come find me later and introduce yourself. Hey guys, uh sorry for running late. I literally just got here from the airport and my flight got delayed a little bit.

Is that the reason why you are wearing sunglasses and it's very sunny in Denver. So, so yeah. Uh this is Steve. I'm with Dora Hacks. Uh we host hackathons in web3 space with a lot of the partners.

We're also the co-host of ETH Denver 2022. So, this is my second east Denver. Um, and uh very happy to see a lot of our partners in this panel. We're actually partnering with Scroll on a ZK grant uh towards global developers. I'm very excited to see how we can build with native in the future in the D5 front.

Yep. Um but recently we're building on something very interesting. I can share a little bit more in the future in later in this panel. Yeah. Later we will get very technical.

Oh, sorry. That's my mistake. So, now let's talk about let's talk about some technical questions. What are this? Am I holding this wrong?

What are the special features that you guys are building to bring mass adoption for crypto? Technical features, please. Who want to start? Let's start with you. Yeah.

Okay. Um, yeah. So, so some of the interesting innovations that we're bringing to the space recently is something we call public good staking. So, uh we have been funding developers in the space since 2014. So, which is nine years ago.

And one of the big questions when we run hackathons like East Denver itself is how we can sustainably bring uh grants and money to developers. Uh it's actually very easy in the bull market where people are throwing money at developers but it's actually particularly challenging this time in the bare market. You can see all of the company are like restrict restricting their spendings including grants. So we have been trying to solve that by introducing this new model called public good staking or public good validators where Dora hacks right now operates validators for a lot of our partners networks and we use the validator proceeds to fund developers and that has been working particularly well recently with our partnership with a lot of those in the Cosmos ecosystem. uh we have been validating EVOS, Injective and a lot of the other uh Cosmos app chains.

Um and uh those validators are generating sustainable grants. Um right now we're we're able to distribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to developers monthly on our platform. Um they can uh tackle bounties. They can participate in those hackathons. Um and this brings a lot of interesting designs of uh whether we can is actually build a decentralized staking protocol because a lot of you might have noticed that centralized staking is being attacked by SEC recently um like Kraken Coinbase they are being regulated and question and either also Ethereum has been challenged like whether uh is it can be identified as a security because of the staking features.

So I think the space also lacks a decentralized staking uh infrastructure or protocol where everyone can stake multi-chain assets into this protocol freely in a decentralized manner. So we have been researching that front as well. Um but yeah, we're particularly excited about public good staking and uh I invite you all to try out by participating in the different grant programs on Dorohax.io and we have more products to to launch in the future. Thank you.

Thank you. Hi. Do you want to go next, Danny? Sure. And the question is about web 3 infrastructure for mass adoption.

Yeah. What are what are the specific features that you guys are building to help that? Yeah. So, at Scroll, you know, it's kind of what we're doing, right? We're trying to scale Ethereum.

If you're an Ethereum user and you've ever been a part of trying to use the network when a really popular NFT mint is going on or something else, gas costs get exorbitant. We're trying to increase the capacity so that everyone can get in, right? Like on top of mass adoption from the cultural sense, we're also going to have to build up these infrastructure that is ready for that mass adoption. And so that's what we're trying to build. We're tackling that by building what we call the ZK EVM.

We're not alone in doing this. This is an open community effort. We're working with, you know, uh, the Ethereum Foundation's privacy and scaling explorations. It's an open source project, but that's the heart of it. We're using ZK proofs that have this really special feature that you take a really big problem, do it on a supercomput, and just have a proof of it afterwards that you can verify anywhere, including on a blockchain.

So, Ethereum mainet is able to verify the work of an off-chain network. uh which means we can have a really big powerful wild version of Ethereum that Ethereum itself secures. And so that's the that's what we're working on and I think the you know I think we're going to talk a little bit about where we're headed but that's that's the big problem to to be solved. Great. So where are you headed in a short sentence?

Where we're headed is full decentralization. That's the major challenge for all the L2s. uh everyone's got decentralized sequence or sorry centralized sequencers you know uh multi-IGs for upgradeable contracts and so the big issue is what do we decentralize first and how seriously do we take that in our road map um for us that's decentralizing what we call our prover network that's the the GPUs and the supercomputers uh in my analogy earlier that are doing that work of proving that all the stuff that was done on the network we have to run a lot of complex math over that before we commit that back to the L1 one and we want that to be a fully open and decentralized network of people that can contribute their compute power uh to be able to secure the offchain network. Great. Thank you.

Yeah, that's it. Cool. Yeah. So, uh at our end, I will actually I will actually echo like D Daniel's point even for us like the core ethos is basically going to make web 3 move towards decentralization and trustlessness. So uh from our side the key is more to be sort of making the whole decentralized finance efficient and more liquid.

So uh our team comes from like a diverse background of uh digital asset market making and OTC trading operations and we want to bring forth our prop priority strategies in making DeFi efficient. uh we are also building uh like one of our key uh features that we're trying to build is like some kind of risk tranch based strategies where uh we can allow uh liquidity providers of different risk appetite sort of participate in the ecosystem. Uh one of the key uh strategic advantage that we see over other part other sort of competitors in the space who are trying to do uh active liquidity management on top of uh considered liquidity amms is uh that uh we bring forth uh our past experience and our robust trading infrastructure to do certain things like say optimizing rebalancing costs. So uh what we can do is we can aggregate liquidity from different venues uh in a trustless manner and execute that uh when we are rebalancing our positions uh through like just in time liquidity on top of unis swap v3. What that would enable us is sort of uh provide liquidity and create world- based strategies on like very concentrated ranges.

So through that we can sort of help project team sort of uh reduce the liquidity mining incentives that are giving. Like if right now they're giving liquidity mining incentives of top of a 10 million unis swap v2 pool with us they can achieve the same level of liquidity with like say 100k capital pool and we can actively rebalance by aggregating liquidity from different venues. So that's something that I feel uh will make the whole D5 a lot more efficient and then if uh D5 becomes like the main venue for price discovery and is as efficient in centralized exchanges then I see like the whole uh I would say the mass adoption would come straight away and all the big systematic players who are sort of worried about lack of transparency and custodial risk of centralized exchanges that all will go away. So in simpler terms, who are your target users? That's what said like we are trying to cater to all the three players that we see right now.

For traders, we want to optimize their trading by offering lower slippages. For liquidity providers, we want to give give them an option to earn passive yield on their assets uh based on whatever the risk appetite is. And then for project teams, they don't have to give out so much liquidity mining incentives and they only need to have a smaller capital pool to have deeper liquidity. So for them also like the selling pressure with that of the tokens will go away. Yeah, it's like all the three players.

Great. Thank you. Your turn to Okay. So I like all the other panelists answers. I think mass adoption itself like there's actually different means of achieving it.

Uh Steve is like saying more like it does uh Dorax does hackathons and also public staking itself like is a move towards like getting more people involved. Then I think ZK uh ZK scroll is actually pushing the boundaries of what applications can actually be done with ZK tech and I think like city itself sees like D5 itself I guess efficiency is the bottleneck to like mass adoption. So I think for native itself for us we feel the the issue is more towards trying to uh push like the whole UX front uh forward. So why is so because we feel like at native is uh web three and crypto is actually the internet of value. So to really drive adoption itself we need to get users to be really more uh cognizant of like understanding and being able to access that value like the value of internet.

So going back you can look at defi itself. So unis swap compound they what they did is they kind of popularized the mm model the uncolaterized uh lending model and brought a lot of users from there very successful like openc got NFT collections or NFT trading so a whole wave of NFT people came in so all these really just made like adoption happen because use cases came out and people leaped into the onchain world so away from the centralized world so I think native for us we want to empower the app layer. We want to be able to make uh hello. Yeah, we want to be able to allow projects to very easily like deploy their dexes onto their websites very easily um without much overhead and be able to directly integrate and uh interact with their users uh and do their swaps and earn a fees from there. So we want them to actually have the capability and control to manage and um change their UX however they want using widgets.

We be able to control their pricing models through a switch. Uh be able to better manage their liquidity through a back-end dashboard. So all this is all done up just so that we can simulate something like how a Shopify experience is like like whereby you can imagine like a Shopify vendor is able to customize their whole checkout experience. We want to deliver that on native. So all in all we want to make the whole experience of like having a like user me needing to always jump to a third party website to do a swap a thing of a pass.

So everything on natively on the website so that we can really improve the whole UX front in the onchain world so that in some sense ma mass adoption can kind of move up ahead further. Yep. What is the number one reason why a project want to become or create their own decks? Um I would say um I would say like fees itself like being able to like have some means of like uh incurring fees and over to their treasury and not having it uh segregated to some uh centralized exchange is all really better towards the web three world. Great.

Thank you. Now let's get into more challenging questions. What are the technical difficulties that you guys are facing for your current product design and future road map? Let's start in the middle. Sid.

Cool. Yeah. Uh so I think uh for us like again I will sort of be a bit more specific to the DeFi side of things. So uh for us like we want to offer like uh solutions for people with different risk appetite. So for that sometimes you need to hedge exposure, sometimes you need to put like certain risk management practices with the help of derivatives.

So what I feel right now is like in terms of the derivative markets be it options or perpetuals it's relatively illquid on the trustless venues. So like whatever strategies we used to say execute in which we could execute in like a centralized environment for a particular player. If you want to make a retail facing product so we want to do it in a trustless manner. So for those venues what we feel is right now the liquidity is not there but we're working with a few teams there's like panoptic who's trying to build like options on top of unis swap v3 there are few other like gmx was revolutionary on how it has onboarded so many users a few products that are going forward and we want to work closely with them on sort of how we can use those practices uh other than that I think uh on the technical side what I feel is uh there is certain level of technical complexity involved with unis swap v3 in terms of like the LPS are not entirely aware of what kind of risk they are taking when they're providing liquidity. Uh they cannot quantify impermanent loss and all.

Even if like I'm talking with the quants at our team, it still becomes a bit too technical for sort of understanding. So I can expect like the retail LPS would find it a little bit more difficult. So with our product we try to sort of abstract away all that complexity but I think still just to put that narrative out there needs to be a certain level of like research and literacy sort of being provided to them and awareness provided to them. I think I I see it like as a journey. I think slowly we will move towards like a path where basically all these could be abstracted and people can just come in.

So what kind of or what level of information should really a protocol or product provide to the users to the average users? Uh right now I say like uh in terms of like the D5 infrastructure like say unis swaps uh and like a lot of other AMMs are already battle tested. So uh the project teams just what they do is sort of they offer like liquidity mining incentives on top of these programs. So in the in terms of like that side smart contract security they can say it's all good. Uh but in terms of like the user side like project teams would never put out this thing like okay our token could be volatile and all that.

So from that perspective it's on the user side that they need to understand the risk when they're providing liquidity in case like a price swing happens how much impermanent loss they can face like uh I've seen like many of the products that are there in the market right now the way they sort of sort of put out APY and the yields that you are getting is not actually clear like if you only quote like the trading fees that you are earning that's not enough it could happen that the impermanent loss is a lot more significant than the trading fees that you have earned. So I think the literacy needs to become and I I don't think it would come from the side of the project teams. It it has to be at a layer above where basically someone abstracts all that away and provides it in a very simple to like easy to understand way. Thank you. Hopefully you're going to be a good judge for this.

Do you want to go next Daniel? Sure. Yeah. So technical challenges. I'm gonna cop out a little bit and say I think the technical challenge is this idea of doing it right as opposed to just doing it fast, right?

I think with that's a constant tension and teams building in decentralized contexts. Um it's you know easier to build with training wheels or to centralize certain components. Um, and you know, I think all the most all the L2 teams are doing that, but at scroll, you know, we're thinking a lot about how do we make sure that we're building in a robust way that we don't scale so quickly that we are locked into things that make it harder to implement decentralization as quickly as possible as well, right? Um, so that's a long way of saying like what is hard I think is is the unsolved problems in the L2 or in the rollup space. Um, and specifically all the like nooks and crannies when you get into validating bridges and making sure you're staying, you know, censorship resistant on your O2 and that you're doing like all the things you need to do to be a rollup that truly inherits Ethereum's security.

Um, and and so I think that's the the biggest challenge. Um I think another thing for realup teams right now is like in this interim when things are still beta and test net and everything else uh a diff differentiate differentiating yourself um when you are making an EVM and you're just saying we're going to make it look and feel as much like a theoreium as possible uh that can be a hard thing for lots of people to distinguish until you really get into the weeds of the technical pieces of it. Um so I think just on the narrative side like you know uh that part is kind of a challenge that I think about as a devril thinking about how do I tell developers about this. Um but mostly what I do is I just tell them go use the alpha test net that was released today. So that's my shill.

Um we have bounties around it too. So if you're hacking deploy a contract it's easy. Uh yeah I know you mentioned you guys are putting a lot of focus on decentralization. But based on your own judgment, do you think every single part of a let's say crypto project need to be decentralized? Um, yes and no.

I mean, I think there can be centralized components, but you have to constantly be weighing what are the trust assumptions that you're changing by centralizing a component, right? If we centralize a sequencer and by virtue of that we lose our censorship resistance or our permissionlessness to this network or open up new attack vectors for malicious actors to to get in there. Unacceptable, right? Like that is not something we want in the Ethereum ecosystem, go place elsewhere. Um but you know if you are building say uh a DAP and you need some centralized aspect to make your product more userfriendly um I think Nosis safe wallets are a great aspect of this like version of this the wallets themselves completely decentralized you can interact with them in permissionless ways but there are centralized components when you go onto the website um just to make the UX so much more accessible and easy and so I think that's this balance that we have to figure out and always be as a community holding project's feet to the fire and saying like no core aspects need to stay decentralized and then the less core aspects we can kind of like weigh it out and say like no we're encouraging you to still build fast and build for the next billion users which is going to take a high level accessibility so great thank you I'm pretty sure there will be some people quoting you in the future sorry to put you in this rabbit hole do you want to go next Steve oh yeah so so yeah Um I I think Dorohhack's products are are actually pretty uh basic.

It's it's a hackathon infrastructure. We do develop uh quadratic funding and minimum anti-colution infrastructure on multi-chain. Uh our little contribution to the space. Uh they're not too they're not as technical as a ZKVM layer. I would say um not a competition.

Okay. This is not a competition about tech technically. Yeah. But um but but but I did mention that we're we're looking into the future of decentralized staking. I think it's uh it's needed by everyone in the space.

Um and and particularly if you see uh where go beyond Lido and all the LSD solution that you see in Ethereum ecosystem, how we can provide a decentralized protocol in the multi-chain realm where you can stake assets on Aptos, Salana, uh and Ethereum and Cosmos at the same time. uh in maybe in one unified account system um because different chain have different addresses and different chains have different elliptical uh elliptical curves uh for you to generate that access uh your your address with private keys. So uh we have been brainstorming solutions to that. I think this needed in the multi-IG applications it's needed in decentralized staking. it can efficiently help you build something that can be a substitute to Coinbase and uh Binance.

Uh so I've been researching that ourselves. So that's like the difficulties that we see that might don't even have a solution uh in the future but but we're definitely very interested in that. Yeah. So when you say that might be something may not have a solution in the future, how do you guys usually tackle that? Right.

It's it's very hard to explain to the general audience. Oh, there may not be a solution for this. So, just wait. Yeah. Yeah.

But but but we work work on it. Yeah. Meaning explain it more forunner meaning you're going to try different solutions for that or No, no, no. It's just like it's still in research uh like phase, you know, like like ZKVM is in engineering phase. Uh there there like it will be shipped eventually.

I think scrolls mainet uh will be shipped in the next five years. I think I'm joking but but but but this is in still a research phase. So it needs um research in cryptography and and all the different fields to actually see the possibility of like achieving that. Okay. I would like to share with the audience some more research outcomes but not today.

You're off. All right. Um I think uh to this question a lot of points actually I wanted to say have been covered by Daniel in a sense. So I feel that for the native team itself like uh we face a lot of struggles because we are building something novel. It's not a fork.

We we we're trying to test this concept of like being having this be on deck concept. So I think the number one thing that we actually have to struggle with is actually how we could um how do we actually balance between like efficiency and decentralization something similar to what just now you were saying like sequences and all. So for us is um we our grand goal is actually to have everything as permissionless and open source as possible if not everything. So um what we have done over at native is we deployed like uh for our pricing technology we deployed all our public pools and uh contracts all uh onchain and uh all permissionless all that however we because our core ideology is uh okay something I'll cover later uh native is we want to be everything modular we want to allow things to be as flexible as we can we want to be able to have this as kind of our core DNA whereby by we can actually satisfy different types of genre of clients so that we can really further the UX requirements of different projects. So um the challenge of this is that when in this pursuit of this uh we need to support every form of pricing model out there.

So one of the more common pricing models out there is something that like for PMMs which is private market makers. Um they actually require uh they do very capital efficient forms of pricing strategies and models and to do that we have to do some configurations to support that. So via RFQ we also have um other than this we also have other features that we intend to uh release out which uh I cannot really say right now is still in development but these are actually like challenging the limits of blockchain. So uh at least the current blockchain until ZK solves it. Yeah.

then we'll be able to kind of like um push uh we will always try to find the best solutions to try to uh strike the balance and try to make sure we are able to both be both decentralized and efficient. So this is kind of our current predicament I would say the technical challenges. So I would say we're looking forward to maybe if ZK score rolls out then we can possibly have some ways of making it more efficient for our infrastructure. Yeah. Yeah.

Every single web three infrastructure going to partner together. We're gonna have an infrastructure D. I'm just joking. So can you please explain a little bit more uh the modularity of the design that you mentioned for the architecture like how is it designed? Why is it important?

Yeah. So for native itself um we we designed it in the way that um having instead of like in cases where unis swap uh using a swap as an example having everything built into kind of one factory contract we actually separated out the different uh parts of the swap into different components. This is actually to facilitate the flexibility of changing pricing models. So just to really like break it down to one aspect of it, um users are able to very easily change which pricing models they want to use uh as just as a click of a button on the dashboard itself. So say they want to use like uh unis swap v2 like a constant product for for a while.

Maybe they want to at certain point they want to support just a sell only price pricing model. This is all uh doable because of the very modular design. We also have a certain uh ex uh unique quirk about the design we have. We actually choose to actually have the wallet uh treasury wallet we would say uh separated out from the the uh the storage of the assets whereby it's con uh is a bit different from how unis swap does it whereby they actually have the assets itself parked inside the uh LP pools. for us is actually we separate a liquidity address and we actually have a treasury and asset wallet address so that um the project teams will always be able to have full custody and of their assets and be able to have full control of how they want to manage their assets.

Clap clap show time is over. Let's talk about some more serious problems in in crypto. So considering all the recent incidents and hacking in crypto right such as the very infamous FTX collapse, Luna crash Celsius as a builder of the web3 infrastructure the fundamental layer. What are measures can be taken to enhance the trust and security in our industry? Because not only the retail users but also like institutional users they they already lost face in in crypto even though they are still dumping money but like uh on the surface they are still saying oh we lost face.

Yeah. So so what measures are we going to take? Let's start with you. So I feel before we talk about kind of the measures or solutions to kind of how to really solve this thing, I think we should kind of like think about why we actually got into this place first like how the SBF actually laid down this giant rugpool to rock so many people around the world. So like Netflix will next time do a documentary for sure.

So I think firstly um going back unfortunately SBF itself he commands the liquidity itself. So be it his like nerdy MIT background his Jane Jane Street trapfy experience he actually convinced like early like institutions to trust him and give him money do his trading over there. So liquidity attracts liquidity like flywhe goes then afterwards all the price discovery and trading happens over the FDX. So this itself uh if you really go down the fundamental level is that users are not really fans of like SPF or FTX or maybe Tom Brady or what. So they they just really want to have good pricing and liquidity and maybe also like the trader for traders user interface for FTX.

So I feel the whole question actually about how we actually should address this is actually how should D5 in particular be able to improve the whole experience to so that they can go head-to-head with CFI to really acquire users. So that basically is like just how they can compete to get users to make the leap over to the onchain world whereby all the assets are transparent and uh non-custodial so that we can prevent like another FTX of like this C5 opate like mess over there. So over at native here um show time again. So native itself uh we allow a lot of uh projects to be able to uh integrate the decks over in their own website itself to be able to um how say uh directly integrate uh the application uh in the application itself the decks and they can actually configure how the liquidity and UX and all that things directly from the app itself so that they can better serve their their users base from there. So we feel that this itself will be able to better bring the whole experience of uh D5 further from there because really if you think about decentralized trading going back in 2017 itself like we had idex we have kyber back then so unis swap came in they improved the whole experience itself but we still lack like pricing I would say user experience everything to really further down to go to the next level so that people can really say like they want to ditch C5 and just use D5.

So the Rails itself is still not super complete. So I feel that once we improve on like the pricing and liquidity from the native side, we can make that better leap towards that. And also the UX front if we're able to have like the exchange itself big on the app itself. So users don't really need to go through that clumbersome UX that also will like slowly make a smaller better leap towards like giving better odds for D5 to defeat CFI. At least that's how native team feels about this.

What about risk management for users? I would say um for a native itself currently wise uh we are working on transparency tools and risk management tools to actually help to balance out the how do I say the user experience when I say users is actually the people using the swap itself uh because for native itself we have two sides of users something like Shopify so there's the people that actually are deploying the dexes and they are the people that are swapping on the dexes itself so what may is more like on the user front they're doing the swaps. I guess we can employ some form of risk management and kind of like transparency tools to better enhance the experience on that. Thank you to do you want to go next set? Yeah, I think uh I will actually uh build on top of what to saying because both of the products range protocol and native are working some way or the other in the D5 side of things.

But uh in terms of like my opinion what I feel is to not have these kinds of events again we actually need like out andout changes in the way we are interacting with D5 like uh right now the core ethos of our industry was decentralization but all these failures have been due to the custodial nature of it like lack of transparency and the loss of faith has come from those kinds of things. So uh at my end also I have interacted with a lot of like big uh players of the traditional finance and they have been in the space for a while but they're still in a phase of basically testing out the waters putting in some small investments here and and the reason for that why they are not going all in is because on the D5 side infrastructure is not there like this whole thing started with unis swap version 2 getting adoption but unis swap version two was a very generic curve like xy equal to k if you tell me right now that remove all the tire one exchanges like binance coin base out and it's you only have unis swap to trade then that's a very bad UX it this industry won't get that kind of adoption that there is uh then basically unis swap v3 came it brought about a lot of flexibility for you to do things but it became a lot more complicated so uh right now we need to sort of abstract away that complexity we need to make that unis swap v3 interactions efficient and if there is an infrastructure where the d5 becomes efficient enough and uh it can become a venue of price discovery and it gets more trading volume than centralized exchanges then definitely people would prefer that and not go towards an uh approach of basically where they're taking a custodial risk. These uh central exchanges have taken a route of sort of putting out proof of reserves and all these things but it's still you at some level or other you are trusting them that they're providing you the right information or the if you can make this whole interaction trustless then I think that that's the way to go to be honest. Yeah, proof of reserve. I mean, it's one master, but I don't think it's decentralized.

So, I I still believe in code is law in a lot of sense as a developer. Please go ahead, Daniel. Yeah, I think um maybe less specifically in the DeFi realm, but I think great avenues for that is like I feel like both of these answers are kind of improving the products, right? that yes, decentralization is a is an ethos we want, but we can't probably sell all users on that for mass adoption. Um, and so the user experience needs to be there and the product experience has to be better than what you're going to find in the centralized world.

Um, I think, you know, panels full of teams trying to make that happen for different avenues. Um, us specifically, we're trying to make that so that, you know, scaling Ethereum means making Ethereum more accessible to more users for cheaper. And hopefully with that, we spurn lots of fun innovations like making ZK on the EVM cheaper to do. Maybe it means um gasless transactions are a lot cheaper so users don't feel like they have to like onboard into the entirety of web 3 just to make a simple transaction. Um, and yeah, there's there's a whole problem space there that I'm sure the people in the crowd are making hackathon projects about as well and just improving the product space.

So, yeah, let's shift the focus back a little bit into the security, right? How do we make the users or our partners to have more trust in our protocols or projects? Yeah, I guess where I was going with that answer is that like the issue of the centralization there is like I don't know that we can like force users in a decentralized context. All we can do is draw them, right? And so it's as we make our it more a better experience and better rates for trading or whatever else.

Uh we just have to make it the obvious choice to use the decentralized route. Um and so that's that's where the security comes from, right? I don't know that we can force security in the centralized world. Uh we just have to I mean on the we have to make a better user experience while at the same time maintaining our decentralization, maintaining our trustlessness, our verifiability, our censorship resistance, you know the core ethos that is who we are as as an industry. We have to make sure that we hold that line and really you know keep projects accountable for that.

Yeah. I think the balance between okay how user is trusting different protocols or how much of user experience they are looking for is really an ongoing discussion for the whole like crypto space and and we probably should do another panel to do that user experience or decentralization are they conflicting conflicting with each other but yeah please go ahead Steve yeah I I I I definitely agree with all the panelists here I think the space is just too young um to for any brand to build their reputation in the space like the oldest company in the space is 10 years old I would say. So um so so you use Uber uh to take a taxi you tried it about 10 years ago and that worked and they have been using that since then because every experience has been working out for you. um you you store your data, you store emails in Gmail, in Google, right? Uh it's not decentralized, but still use it.

All of your emails are there, all of your secrets are there, but you trust Google with it because it's a reputable brand that uh it has been providing this service to you in the past 10 20 years. So I I I I do believe that um in the future you will see more user friendly products coming out of crypto. I see a combination of centralized products alongside with decentralized solutions. Um yeah, so I I won't say decentralized products will completely replace centralized solutions, but I do believe that there are more talents coming into the space and they will build really really good products in DeFi in everywhere. To add to that, every single one of us are hiring.

So if you guys are interested in working for any of those projects, please please stay here. And with that being said, I would like to open to the question to the general audience. I would like if anyone have any questions for any of the protocols or panelists ups here. I see some hands. Okay.

Wait for the microphone, please. Hello. testing. Okay. Uh first of all, thank you all panelists for your contributions to the space.

Uh my question is mostly for Daniel, but there might be input from other panelists as well. Uh I think it's fair to say that the last year and a half has been really good for optimistic rollups. Specifically, arbitum and optimism have seen a lot of capital inflows despite the market conditions. um the OP stack being kind of adopted by Coinbase has been a really bullish um development for optimistic rollups and I was wondering how you view the next year, the next three years, maybe the next five years in the adoption of ZK rollups and how ZK technology is still very early and has kind of been developing in parallel to the adoption and and the growing more robust ecosystem, application ecosystems around uh optimistic roll-ups and how you view uh you know projects like arbitrum and optack adopting this technology in the future and maybe uh adding ZK rollups or or replacing the optimistic kind of functionality with with uh ZK under the hood or if it's going to be competing technologies and and we'll see them exist uh in parallel kind of like how we see alt L1's and L2s compete for capital and and TVL today and just what you see the future looking like between the two kind of rollup approaches. Yeah, just like my personal view on this is I think we're going to have lots of L2s that cater towards different use cases, right?

And so I think developers are going to grow an appreciation for the differentiation between each project. Um, obviously the arbitum and optimism teams are solving really interesting and hard pro problems. I love that they're solving them because some of those problems are ones that we're running into now and we get to look at what they did and kind of analyze, you know, I think they've got this like first mover advantage issue there. I think there's also first mover disadvantage, right? So like in that sense um you know we're on gui right now which means we can really still do some rapid experimentation with emerging research and be really experimental and uh with our designs and have a little bit of latitude for moving quick um where we don't have all this capital lock locked in that kind of risky way right um so that's kind of it generally you know I don't know enough about each project's road map to be able to answer like where ZK is going to fit fit in.

I know I believe Optimism is trying to have this kind of like multi fraud proof clientish system uh that maybe a ZK1 can fit into. But I'm the team's going to be around all week. So find them and ask them for sure. But does that answer your question? Yeah.

Awesome. Thank you very much. Cool. Great. Uh I got to take another question from the audience.

Yes, please. Hey. Okay. Um, so my question is very simple. It's for ranch protocol.

Uh, I'm really intrigued about what you said that you're helping um projects to have smaller liquidity pools or kind of use less liquidity for the same impact. And then you mentioned the unis swap v3 as a too complex and there's a lot of inefficiencies. Can you tell a little bit more about the like the I I guess like the nature of your product? What is it that makes you so different from from unis swap? What's your secret secret formula if you can share?

I think uh to illustrate like what uh how we would be doing these things differently is like say uh if like say a project is offering liquidity mining incentives for their project tokens pool. So uh what happens in that case is like if I am a rational LP who's providing liquidity to that pool. Uh then I would definitely not want to miss the liquidity mining incentive. So uh in the case of unis swap v3 what happens is like say if there's a worldbased product which is being incentivized. So what would happen is that vault based product might be like a very significant percent of the pool.

So if that uh pool like the vault becomes say 80% of the pool and they keep a concentrated liquidity range in that scenario what would happen is once you reach the boundary and then say you have to rebalance you remove the liquidity then basically you were the most of the pool. So at that time if you try to rebalance the slippage could be like 20 30 40%. So basically that model won't work. That's why right now the project teams that have tried to tackle this problem what they have done is basically if unis swap v2 was an infant now the way unis swap v3 is being used is basically that infant has wore a tie that's all so basically still they're keeping very wide ranges so there it is indirectly replicating unis swap v2 all over again but what we can do is say uh we will create like a payment for orderflow model where basically say the point you only have a small pool but at the point of rebalancing if say that token has liquidity on binance or other venues What we can do is work with other external private market makers to sort of bridge that liquidity in a trustless manner. For that we would be using just in time liquidity.

Later we'll be sharing a lot more of research on top of that. But with that what we can do is you only need like 10k 20k liquidity and it would be do way better than uh like a 10 million unis swap pool because it would be aggregating liquidity for binance unis uh binance coinbase all these venues together. Do you have followup question or you're good? This is excellent. Thank you.

Great explanation. Great. Thank you. I think with that I would like to wrap up our panel today. But if you want to hear more good news, we're hosting another panel on March 2nd at 4 PM at the clock tower and it's also about web3 infrastructure.

But I have invited panelists from this panel will be more from a business angle. So the panelists will be BC's gaming projects and FT projects from the industry. So make sure if you would like to join our next panel, scan the QR code behind me or in front of the venue and then you can sign up. There will be free food and drinks there too. There will always be free food and drinks with native.

Okay, last time showing all the core founding team members of native are here. So you are welcome to talk to any of us who will be able to answer the questions for you. If not, we'll put that in the backlog. Do you guys have any last words? Hack with come say hello.

Thanks for your time. Yeah, say something cute, please. Dorax team will be around as well. So if you're interested in grants, uh we're here for you. I'm scared of you.

I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. Hello. Yeah.

Come come to our second panel. Yep. What she says. Yes. Okay.

Let's let's face the camera and make a really good face. Picture time. Yeah. And yeah, feel free to come to us. Thank you guys so much.

Grab more drinks and food. Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat.