[Fireside Chat]The new design of proof of stake(PoS) #KBW2019 #vitalikbuterin #silviomicali

good morning Korea good morning Seoul how many of you here are on Twitter all right well I'm Twitter I'm crypto I'm man run and I want to keep this panel very interactive and I really want to give you guys an opportunity to interact with us knowing that this is being streamed and broadcast on CNBC's crypto trader which is the show that I run for CNBC it's a great honor and pleasure for me to be moderating or a fireside chat with two titans of this industry one which we all know and love and most of us have taken some photos with Vitalik and every now and then he even looks at the camera as opposed to over there and over there and the other one is someone who's probably the most decorated cryptographer in the world I mean someone who's been around for a long time in fact if my math is correct you joined MIT in 1983 right yes and then Vitalik you were about minus 11 then right and so if we're talking about the future of blockchain I think what we need to do is really take stock of where it is that we are today so if I look at where we are today we are almost 11 years in a post Satoshi Nakamoto world I think at the end of October we'll be 11 years into the end of us into the beginning of a Satoshi Nakamoto era we have one dominant protocol I've heard you both separately talking about that dominant protocol as being slow maybe inefficient but it is the dominant protocol why it is my market cap it's not by daily transaction fees correct why are we in a position 11 years later where there is only one protocol do you agree with my assessment and why are we there I don't know like market markets are weird right so like for example when I when I was following the kind of Bitcoin block size how wars a couple of years ago I remember thinking that like there's basically two futures one if they are one of them where a kind of Bitcoin figures itself L technically technically from a scalability point of view and where it does really well and one of them we are Bitcoin does not figure these things out and it does not do well and the world that we're living in now is one that I just did not expect and it's basically one where like honestly speaking scalability has by and large not been figured out but at the same time it's one where Bitcoin is doing well and I mean this does suggest that there is you know some some spooky thing other than direct use use value that's driving these things and economies are hard to predict you know so you talk about scalability not being solved and I think you were the one who spoke about the trilemma mmm-hmm so via do you think that the trilemma still exists I've heard you speaking about the trilemma not existing anymore and specifically a lot of work that you've done about you know getting scalability on a blockchain do you think that the trilemma is still as prevalent well first of all let me recall by trauma so the idea is that it is hard to be both secure decentralized and scalable and I'm sure that there are some definitional escapes in which you say oh has not been solved because according to this definition is not however and I think we done tremendous progress and particularly we are Algar and the focused on adding a protocol that actually was fully secure decentralized and scalable and so but is I believe he's as he should be better we have a basic challenges and when we he's a community like ours which is very aggressive and very innovative who make progress and so the pillars challenge is solved now what is the next challenge by the way to your first question I would say well it's not mainly protocol there is a waiver Bitcoin is the dominant one with most of money and so and so forth but they know the community has already done a big leap in trusting basic inca how innovative it was and so in some sense you know having learned first and the have to offer to mr. or mrs. Nakamoto for a great idea and then now they started getting comfort and I'm sure whether we continue to to evolve it's just a few years I know but impatience as I am impatient sir all of us are always focused you know instantaneously but you know things that takes time but I think we are going in a good direction so let's talk a little bit more practically now we're talking about the future of blockchains we've now been around for a while we've developed certain applications what do we need blockchains for how can blockchains really make our lives better you know I want to try and get away from this narrative that we had a long time ago we said everything's gonna be decentralized and we're gonna overthrow governments to saying more practically how can block change change our lives Vitalik I'm gonna look at you for this one yeah think first of all there's like all of the things that I just talked about in the presentation about how we're gonna block chains are a good platform for a kind of creating systems of rules in general that might have span across so large and diverse groups of people and look that's a broad definition right like that includes money it includes and of all of the a decentralized finance stuff that's been happening and I think money in decentralized finance has been providing a lot of value already like I yeah and I remember for example going to Africa and asking people like what have people concretely done with blockchain so far and and if the answer was that up until now most practically it's basically that there is people who live in Africa who work remotely for software companies and voices like the US and Europe and they make money and they use cryptocurrency to bring the money back home without losing like huge amount percentages of it to remittance payments and I mean like I saw a news article about Palestinian people like doing a similar our thing so it's do you think just that it's like probably the one place where of cryptocurrencies touch I mean not the entire entire world's lives but definitely quite a few people's and I think like over time we'll see it broadening from cryptocurrency to of all of these other applications as they prove themselves more and more so what do you think is the the most important change that blockchain is going to make our lives well and so I agree with payment is just the first the first level but the most in fundamental to me is the ability of the injecting trust to enable two people who never met each other and therefore know each other to a to construct with trust and I think in this world we need a bit more interaction and the ability to leverage the trust which is spread across all of us but in which everybody believes we ought to believe it the majority of us are fine but you don't know the particular person I think this ability to inject trust is going to be the best one by the way going back because I'm a blockchain we should understand that when we talk about blockchain we're not talking about the concept frozen in time of today right so blockchain I believe it is going to be like anything that counts in life something that is constantly evolving life is about intelligent adaptation and nothing can be usable to life in human life in particular unless is able to evolve so I believe avatar the way we understand the blockchain is a great is already as a potential for great progress for Humanity we will maintain the name but underneath I hope but actually the meaning of what is a blockchain for Humanity is going to change so that we can serve a better and better not only our immediate needs but also the needs of our future needs and we need sons and children etc if we want to get people to migrate they what they're currently doing to similar blockchain applications with different blockchain applications that achieve the same thing there's a there's an energy access something along the lines of that you have to develop something that's not the same or a little bit better but maybe ten times or a hundred times better what do you think we need to do to get people to start adopting blockchains as builders in the space I mean I think the early adopters are always going to be the higher value adopters and the people for whom there literally is no place to go and I definitely think we haven't fully exhausted those like and within just payments and there's a lot of people starting to do things saying that probably the next kind of immediately or after payments would be a decentralized finance and like the Holy Grail there is basically people being able to and get access to different kinds of financial exposure like if you're in some third-world country then you know how do you get access to the S&P 500 and if there aren't any existing channels then and some of the decentralized finance systems that people are building we're gonna give you one of those channels so it's like that's a kind of natural next step and then after that I think will gets to use cases that are kind of lower value per person but that touch and have many more even more people and I mean I think it will just kind of continue and expanding over time and every time we expand that gives us kind of the resources and knowledge that we need to improve usability its scalability and all these other problems and they're all going to keep on progressing Sophia you are very passionate about decentralized finance and it's becoming a big buzzword and I think in algorri & the the term of frictionless finance is being thrown around quite a lot tell us a little bit about what frictionless finance and what is this borderless economy mean well so first of all let me certainly blockchain scan an alga and block chains can be used for a lot of things but I'm really passionate about of it's a fictional finance let me tell you why because even though our lives are many dimensions and you know we want to be it's very important to be free free of our constricting rules of e over transaction every role but the first form of freedom is perhaps financial freedom if somebody tells you you're free you can do anything you want yet but you're destitute it's not so good so I think if it is important now a fictionalized fictionalized there are many aspects of fiction fictional on board in fictions on the actual of a transaction and somehow all the basic cause you married to become more and more financed to become more and more centralized just assume that I want to transact with you I want to swap an asset for mine for an asset of yours right but we are at a distance we barely know each other what do we do in the real world we bring in another third person say I will secure your transaction but by the way he or she wants to be paid okay but then argues I must be bigger than the two of you because if you had to sue me well you know I must have real assets and so therefore you start saying this has to be bigger than this if Betty won't transact somebody else oh to be somebody bigger pretty soon we are going to have seven entities in the world that we are going to get ante any transaction wouldn't this be ideal for them but the rest of us not at all and similarly for onboarding you know I really believe in technology I really believe it that chronology will set us free but also for onboarding when the blockchain is that's growing you know our children says I want to be on board - yes download the damn chain and keep and keep going how can I have download you know a terabyte even nowadays it's not so it's not so easy oh then trust somebody well what if I don't trust somebody I don't know anybody who my trust then again I choose somebody who is large enough and powerful enough and rich enough that I can go after him for damages if whatever I downloaded for him is not right and very centralization again is a continual continual battle I really believe that part of this affliction was due to lack of technology the path of this friction was also due to greed and and desired and I think of it we should at the list of a technology part to give a wave excuse so there's no excuse anymore we want to be decentralized and as efficient as a super centralized system and certainly we can be much more democratic and we're going to see an explosion of our transactions if we achieve this really fictionalized finance now I want to touch on a topic that I know is quite close to both of you and that's privacy so you spent a large part of your life talking about all founding or building zero knowledge proof Vitalik I know you're quite passionate about privacy and individuals right to privacy but when we look at a blockchain a blockchain is by nature transparent or supposed to be transparent how do we merge this this privacy world and specifically zero knowledge proof with the blockchain world so I think like we can't to look at kind of privacy as it's a kind of context-free absolute good and we can't look at transparency as a and if context-free absolute good I think it's sort of privacy of what and transparency of what that matters and the things that I think like me it makes most sense to build are basically things and of transparency of power and a lot of privacy for individuals right so like if there is a system that have like has a huge amount of influence over how resources get allocated and kind of how we're encouraged to behave then the rules of that system are something that should be an of transparent and open and verifiable by people but there is that in many cases there there's plenty of a guerrilla legitimate rationale for individuals activity is inside of that system to be private do you believe that privacy is a human right do you believe that it's fun mental that everyone does have privacy because when we look at it today the regulators and the governments we don't have privacy and as such we seeing just in our own cryptocurrency space that the privacy coins have been delisted of several of the big exchanges recently I mean do you believe that we have the right to privacy or are we advocating more for transparency you know I think watching ecosystems with no privacy any kind of society with no privacy in general is a very bad idea in a society with no privacy is a society where every single thing you do like is an action that you have to calculate like not only for your own benefit but also to kind of look good inside of the end of thousands of political games that we all kind of inevitably play and with each other and King and just can't escape from every day and I think only with a with the a sufficient degree of privacy can we have a world where people are free to do things for their own happiness instead of being trapped in an endless cycle of having to look good in front of everyone else you've done a lot of work on privacy tell us a little bit about I mean when we spoke you spoke about this term called private transparency so tell us a little bit about what your views on privacy well so my view on privacy I think we all agree and I think of it invest audience also agrees I mean privacy is really perhaps a great engine of freedom and so we can keep our freedom provided but we can get can be banned by the way it's also true that we each one of us as a a private persona in a public persona and both must exist so I believe that it's very important that devoted a big chunk of my life to produce and all drivers to be healed and like a visit zero knowledge proof so that they can actually distill what to becomes public the minimum amount that you want and you can determine and I think these things are important and which an adoption which will require it could be even a social consensus if we can or we can be an experimental consensus one of the good part of our communities but there are many blockchains so it is actually a great experimental ground so some blockchain will experiment the more on putting pervasive emphasis on some things some in others some are going to say or remain transparent and public and we will learn exactly what we want in a market way or perhaps after we learn it we like want to disperse the right amount in each block chain personally I you know it could be even if you take knowledge books and the magic of mathematics around the baton oh I don't need to see anything anymore because of the validity of anything offered to me is ok but just imagine what kind of a life would be is a transaction it's best valid oh yes see I take it so I don't see anything one other reason I want to go on the square think of it the square like the marketplace its bet I see activity very often I go in Sahul and in a different City when mind I'm I'd love to see what people buy I don't know who they are but I can see all the transaction is invest fun I think it is fun so we should preserve this fun and the trick is how to do it perhaps we should experiment and Algren we are experiment with another idea of a coaching which means you were a private there but and you were private there's a blue coat rain red coat rain but then very is a public permissionless Algren blockchain and why because allows you to transfer and transact without a private blockchain so to me wait a little bit as a bit more of appeal because I want to be public I go in the public square when I go into my home I expect some privacy there so I think we do at home our family members should be aware and then however become more public and transparent there we must have this interplay I think better being able to to grow in and out of privacy and to have enclaves well define of privacy rather than injecting privacy where it may actually be preferable but again we don't have to decide now there is a main projects out there let have as it be picked up by some of them see how we like them let's react and we evolve Vitalik you've shown a big interest in zero knowledge proof what do you think the application of zero knowledge proof is specifically for your ecosystem yeah so I guess like first of all we have to distinguish between the kind of 30 year long kind of heritage of zero knowledge proof sin general and this more recent such Rand in and if succinct general purpose your knowledge proofs that we've seen in the last six years and like this second kind this is think that Zen or general purpose your knowledge proofs like snark Starks Blanc like these things are freaking powerful like first of all their privacy technology is and their privacy technology is that because of the sickness property is are in finally efficient enough to be useful for a lot of things but second there are also scalability technologies in the way in which there's scalability technologies is basically that you can have one node do a computation and generate a proof of that computation and they can then publish this proof and this proof can be verified by anyone else in the ecosystem much more quickly than it took to generate the proof right so I can create a block and I can run a proof to show that the block is valid I can publish the block along with the proof and you instead of verifying the blah blocked by running the computation yourself you can just check the proof and so this is one of the kind of key ingredients again and if making an optimal solution to kind of moving beyond that beyond the trilemma I think in the longer term I mean it's it's not a necessary one but it's a really useful one because it allows us to bypass a lot of like honest majority assumptions like fraud proof timing assumptions and other things and so it could really help in making safe and secure block chains by the way they go there they can be synergetic somehow a privacy and zero knowledge proof as narcs which is essentially a mixture of CS poops and zero knowledge poops for correctness right because usually how do we do collectives by everything transparent right but at the same time if you obfuscate things somehow you prevent an adversary to understand what is going on and therefore you prevent an anniversary for manipulating data so there is a possible greater interplay between using zero knowledge books in the form of snarky zero knowledge apophis es mixture MOBAs narc or start to really achieve part of a thing but we want to achieve which actually is a correctness rather than be a transparency we are somehow a privacy and again there are so many knobs to play but in my opinion a we should really roll up our sleeves and figure out how to play these knobs to have a really a concert to put together things and now before I get into slightly more personal stuff decentralization is a big theme and we've been arguing about this you know what is decentralized enough and we've etcetera what steps are you guys taking in your own protocols to ensure the centralization yeah it's a very good question particularly because we are moving to a proof of stake world I mean you've got an airplane that's flying and going to be moving to proof of stake you guys have launched your airplane with proof of stake let's talk about the steps that you're taking in your individual protocols to make sure we're decentralized or theorem so I guess like first of all proof of stake in general is a decentralization strategy and I think proof-of-work did a good job of bmd centrally decentralized for maybe the first like three to four years of its existence these are kind of the good old of democratic days when people were mostly mining on their own laptops but I think like over time we've clearly see how it kind of collapses into either a sick farms or large-scale gbu farms and people without a lot of money have a hard time participating and with proof of stake like if you have a few coins you can join in if you have a even a very small number of coins you can participate on and of the same level as everyone else within aetherium so first of all we're really spending a lot of time on designing the protocol so we can handle a very large number of participants so like instead of like 100 to 500 go up to hundreds of thousands and this allows us to reduce the minimum deposit size from two about thirty to ease and another thing is that we're taking a lot of care to make the protocol get a much more lightweight than each one so for example in each one make there's a lot of concern about like oh the blockchain is bloated oh you need an SSD and it's like hard to run a node and with these two were really trying to kind of cut down the minimal specs for run we're just feeding in a node even charting itself I think is a decentralization strategy right because you can totally run an arbitrarily scalable block chain with no sharding and the way that you do this is basically that you just require every node in the network to have like a huge data center and like you can do this and I gets called a consortium chain but I think like we've even seen empirical evidence that those kinds of systems just inevitably collapse over time into more and more centralization and as people and if get lazy and I kind of all co-located and run the same node and then after that there's a lot of kind of smaller decisions around and of how incentives work how panels how penalty is work how depositing in what's drawing mechanics works and we have this entire blog post egg or a serenity design rationale where we end up describe a lot of these details so it's definitely a head of evolution of thinking over the course of several years so from my side that so first of all I really want to make a clear appeal to technologists and because who say this centralization is not going to happen with our technology and we need more and better technology to bring it about so and even think that even at a social level when we try to organize ourselves as in civilization right and to say we thought to match technology when society were very small what are you going to do you are going to have a dictatorship is the only form and make sense we are going to D we're going to do whatever vedic tato does end of story even in 212 you know representative democracies on a little bit a larger scale I'm Italian so take look I just look at the example of my ancestors of enrollments they had elections when I here ok now ok everybody has to go to Rome to vote I mean without technology getting support to this what technology well you must have the roads because if the journey to Rome it takes you three months rather than three days you not go to Rome and vote right and if you were is not enough infrastructure for places to stay in a secure fashion if you are going to be robbed or killed on the way to vote nobody you'd vote ok so right now we are at the possibility we really the permissionless blockchain if we manage to do things and oka very scalable to him a form of direct self regulation but humanity never had vatican ology for doing it so we are getting there so that is very important today the centralization is lovely but we need more and better technology but here we are at best specific point in time so at our ground how do we interpret we love the proof of stake for the reason we're italic said hoopha work was decentralized for 1 to 3 years and after that they lost interesting being decentralized the fact or not because of malice because it would become so costly that you know fewer and fewer player can afford it so but in proof of stake we privilege what do we call it the pure proof of stake and anybody else should experiment with different things when I sparked about me many is that we can experiment what is pure proof of stake means that every token that you have contributes of census problem okay that's what it means and we don't have to have actually to lower the bar although how many tokens should have the problem is technologically so sophisticated that can allow any token or even a single token to be thought to being put in a sacred place in the middle of the table bonded some for some reason you're talking to me whenever you want in your wallet ready to be spend at your fingertips it can be invested in one all the many opportunities the blockchain offers to you particular financial opportunities and wherever it is you have ability to use foreboding and and we thought about taking much of computation so I think that is our our interpretation if I'm sure and hope is not the only one but we need ideas of this case where base type whether we can put an or more and more of us to participate to consensus to take charge to be real a citizen on this borderless economy I don't spend too much more time talking about this but if every token in the network is a participant in proof of stake how do you prevent bad actors in a consensus algorithm like that why do you prevent it so the idea is a vetted or if you have to orchestrate they somehow give to work a straight of a protocol so that even majority of the money is in honesty means the protocol works so one way to do it which is a bit simpler technologically but it could have also advantages better in some other way is to say well let's delegate rights so let's put a bunch of Delegates and ver tokens determine or the block on behalf of all of us right so oh but wait is delegated proof of stake is one there is bounded poof of stake variance all kinds of other things before work is another they suffer in my opinion and I don't want to over generalize away so the following problem beta they the logic which is a bit questionable in my mind is they all economy is secure if and only if the majority of a small part of the economy are honest personally I think this is a recipe for disaster because who are these a small part of economy in Bitcoin the miners so I mean I don't know if there are economists here in the room but you say invade GDP of the world what fraction is represented by the miners do you want to have a better the entire economy goes into their hands I think it's a bad idea in delegator proof of stake what are we small part of economy they could be the delegates who anyone say somebody assumes a 50 it doesn't matter if it's 2150 100 so that is a way that as something bizarre to it when you instead you depend on the majority of the money to be announced and their reasoning goes a little bit different I cannot so easy within the system go and bribe a few miners or a few things to to bring down by column it should be that the majority of the token holders collude with each other to bring down but the very economy which have a majority of I think this is a queen the hard to happen so that's why I'm passionate about this approach but very again pure proof of stake is one approach where maybe others we should explore them and we should really resist the temptation to be centralized because somehow our bodies are not centralized I know nobody says who is in charge they love a t-cell to ever to boost up my immune system it doesn't work that way we are all decentralized but among when we program when we orchestrate win when you design things somehow become centralized naturally so we should that so what you're saying is in a nutshell you're not a big fan of Libre well I'm saying I don't want to put you on the spot yes I mean I see it as a theorem multiple in this world also is a hundred people friends of each other Kolak a today in North America who should decide for us to be really the world is a bit of a better place and I'm surprised when somebody you don't like Americans can you believe it well we like about hundred people I wonder so you know varies varies diversity in the world and I think if you want to celebrate diversity if you want to be decentralized is not going to be a hundred people or a thousand people it really should be a system baton or calls all of us in into play very very good answer now I want to break away from technology and decentralization and all of those things and I want to actually get to the more personal side of why we're doing what we're doing and Sylvia I want to start with you because you are possibly the most decorated person in cryptography in the world well certainly that we know today in the world and you were around before Satoshi Nakamoto and you've been around after Satoshi Nakamoto what's the difference how how did Satoshi nakamoto's paper change cryptography well I have two things to say so don't Gaspar the first one she came over Conoco has not changed kapag Rafi Oh mati has done something better somebody has done he has used very elementary cryptography to provide a very brilliant solution to an the older problem of consensus okay so somehow for instance I italic so I granted my first PhD to a wonderful graduate student at MIT and in 1985 and Vitalik was one Sylvia had his first PhD when Vitalik turned one you know this is good you are a professor because you love to interact with students who are younger than you I think that's the only way the world works and so I think it's one of the most wonderful because it brings you in and I think the young people over one way to shoot the drive forward and some experiences somehow my help here in which help it at least in my case so I granted with PhD on what on probabilistic Byzantine agreement we've had cryptography was a very strange architecture of bivariate polynomials the complications like this you know 85 page of paper and then suddenly eventually I learned about about a Bitcoin when did you learn about Bitcoin actually very late because you know it was very causing my ivory tower say fifteen sixteen and I mean I mean we are running out of time and I really want to get to Batali cuz all but Sofia you've been sitting in the ivory tower of Education and academics for so long but now you've taken the jump from education and academics and now you've joined the project I mean you're backed by VCS you've got big names behind you well I was what was the rationale to move from that to running commercially I'm an impatient man I really believe in science I think science will change of a world if properly used so we must make sure that this properly used all right you know I so it was a very beginning of of the inception of public approach it took 25 years before somebody sign a transaction so all of a sudden it was a very first trader so all of a sudden says own finally go to SIDS I saw yet again by the way which was to use different type of consent some to instead of put for work to improve consensus so the pendulum goes from classical consensus to for work now is going back at least one time invasive and I think that the only way to do it is to say you know to a lot of your sleeves and get there and get things adopted as fast as you can they haven't been hoping if a good idea somebody who sooner or later will adopt them that model didn't try to work as a twist it did not work as fast as so thirty forty years from now wait what do you want to be remembered what's what do you want your legacy to be in this block chain space 30 years from now 40 years from now Vitalik we'll ask you the same question but about in about 300 years well let's say I really hope of its miss pure proof of stake a type of approach I think is good from from a technical way away but well actually to have you know really a frictionless finance contribute to it I'll be very happy so so I think from the social good frictionless of finance fiction is financed and and technically the surface tech protocol which is a bit more complicated but actually can be your friend really if you want you understand that yeah Vitalik so I mean you've got a list of achievements in this industry at such a young age which is probably unparalleled for someone your age you've built amazing things you're the founder or the right of the white paper of the second biggest protocol at the moment but when you wake up every morning and putting the technology itself aside what keeps you going what what is it that drives Vitalik is it is it to keep developing new cool and to make that protocol to be much more efficient or is there a bigger purpose when you wake up in the morning it's some of those and I definitely think that this idea that platforms we can build new things and new kind new platforms and and institutions that can be more and much more free open and inclusive than other things that came before so I know that you have a big interest in longevity under the assumption that you're going to live for another 150 years more of this and I prefer 150 million but you know under the assumption that you're going to be around for a long time what a success look like in your lifetime when would you sit back and say this vision all this work that I've done this is this is really paid off and I know this because when I look around me what happens I mean can we predict I guess like no sometimes the future takes weird twists and turns right so like for example I know like if you look at something like 1x right it's been kind of this big dream of like let's use open source to take over ever and goods get everyone using it as an open-source operating system on their computers and that's kind if it's gotten somewhere but it's not gotten kind if as far as people hoped but at the same time like we're using Android on our phones which is basically 1x half the world economy runs on Linux so I think the way that watching succeed could easily be a very difference from the way that we imagine that it succeeds today and I think because of that it's also just important all the doors open but also and they're definite like there also is a difference between kind of block chains and like what our values are and like it's important to kind of keep the second in mind and not just be kind of pushing for the first and whatever way possible like because like if it turns out that block chains kind of just get used by and if every bank to improve like high frequency financial efficiency by X 3.9 percent then like that will be quote NASA adoption but that won't be and if something meaningful that's kind of worth all of the hard work that people I get every day every day excited about and I mean I think looking at specifically kind of are we going in a way that actually gives us more the things that we're actually here for is also something that said of importance to keep in the back of your mind when you think about your achievements to date it's such a young age do you do you sometimes look at the staff achieve achieved are you proud or are you still like working progress and I'm do you celebrate 100% work in progress like you celebrate what you've achieved until today I mean yeah and I think the space is achievements that's all today have definitely been significant but like I think and we're halfway up with the exponential curve but if you look at that I like the y coordinate halfway up the exponential curve is like still really close to zero so we have a long way to go so in for you 300 years time how do you want to be remembered I don't know well that's answer from vitalik weather I guess not thank you very much thank you very much it's been a great