Standardized Incentives on Ethereum: A Round-Table Discussion About StandardBounties (Devcon5)

[Applause] welcome to the Sanders roundtable the first thing I'll say is that I asked them for two hours on the schedule assuming that there might be a lot of you to talk about I hope that you can take less than two hours you can get the rest of your day back to basically Spiro United States or the tech foots so yeah the workshop will be kind of open-ended anyway you feel like you're no longer interested like don't hesitate to get another go it's a busy place but Ruby the attention here was like we've been trying to build you know standard values for a long time and really tried to make it a collaborative effort across two projects in the community rather than it just being like us right into our contracts and so it's bad and we wanted to have a place for people who are using it or project using a are interested in using it to talk about it and to share their ideas or thoughts problems issues and kind of thinking about what's next so just like a quick quick agenda I think this is I have generally good flow for how the conversation might go I'm just gonna begin by stating some of like our original intentions behind standard values and why we started building it in the first place and we'll want launch into this like group conversation about current issues I'm sure you guys will have some some thoughts there and in general just like issues we can see and then finally better votes for collaboration so then again it doesn't become like us just writing spar contracts but we really do want it to be just like interoperable and open contracts library that anybody can use for basic incentives right so the original intentions that we had when we started building bounties Network to be the first thing that we did was actually writing standard bounties and the reason was kind of these three main points number one is that we wanted have this like generalized rule or incentivizing anything people have been talking about blood values for like many years people would started talking about coke values but it became about it and originally actually values network was a product for bug bounties but at some point became clear that the same mechanism could and therefore should be applied to any type of activity there's no point in limiting it especially at a contract layer and that it really makes more sense is that taking this idea of like tokens and incentives on the theory of that kind of letting people point that towards any type of action they wanted to see and so to that and so far you know we've seen a lot of stuff like get quite really popular across the court we cooked bounties remain like very very important but also we've seen a lot of interesting bounties and like the designs based Community Development translation and copywriting but then also like social impact and people experimenting with like new ways of just shade the Kuban actually using using factories amazing excitement so that's been pretty fun the next main contention and this looks like really really important is to have a shared interface for interoperate about teams on whatever II was pretty early on was like if you look at you know marketplaces right now that are like up work or fiber you know when someone posts a task and like I call this in a market order for work they have to post it to each of these websites there's no way and of course they have their own very like siloed marketplaces but with the theory oh we have this idea that we can have this like share the order book across all these platforms and this is something that simply wasn't possible before a shared order book that we don't control and you guys it's like it's just there for anybody to ensue and that's an incredibly powerful idea and one that really like differentiates what we have with ethereal from from he's like what two technologies where we would have to run that so I think that's something super super important and then finally and also really interesting me and something we're starting to see more of I think especially in the next year is going to be decide to you you know the composability of my contract specifically that other smart contracts could like programmatically interact with standard boundaries whether it's creating bounties creating submissions accepting submissions contributing or any of the above and so those are kind of the three main ideas behind why we started these kind of have remained generally the same and we've been experimenting with different pieces of them but like I said it's always it's always been for it to be a group effort and for other teams to be able to help us towards it and so we're excited to have you guys here who may be interested in don't do that so with that I want you to launch it to our primary discussion I think that's gonna be a point interesting which is like a current issues we're tasting right now there's been like a number of issues with like some of the assumptions that we had there especially around the ideas and so I think it's like worth discussing some of them I can like initiate the discussion if anyone ever has we think they want to say just like raise your hand or add what we know there's not too many people here so we can just kind of like converse in a more natural way and I'll be taking notes as well and he's willing to be published and worked we're being recorded - so anyone who wasn't here last night for the conversation with that I'll start with kind of like the first major issue that I've noticed in that time I'm going persistent to this day which is the rounding idea of like the interoperability among different platforms this is really hard because like the batteries in particularly you know there's different types of action points or the features to that different platform you wanna write if a bug value platform might require users to like before of an additional step or you know I don't get quite name added like the like applying for tasks and then you have to get accepted in a new community and then this this poses an issue for this type of interoperability because those features are often not built in the context of that contract and therefore they can't you know those actions can't be made a lot of those other platforms and what that application features a built in like a web to Minard if that bounty ends up on another platform users won't apply that just do the work and of course that ends up moving around and so one of the challenges that remains is like how do we maintain interoperability as time goes on and it seems like a lot of that it comes down to an information sharing but nonetheless it's like something that's worth noting and discussing because it's like I think I'm major hindrance to the idea of teams working together and the other one that's like also kind of like self-evident but I owe that again is just that it's like it remains very much like we not in you know when you talk about marketplaces sharing those order books right it's kind of not in the best interest of any one of those marketplaces to do that they're incentivized to like maintain their competitive advantage by keeping that data private right and that's why all the web to know please do and so for us right now like that still kind of the incentive of all the marketplaces and there's a reason why I can open a 0x and gather atheria haven't used the standard because they don't want to have this open data and so that's one of the challenges we face is like whether it's you know relying on intrinsic incentives and having those teams mean just like additional line that like this is better for our users we should be doing it or maybe thinking about some extrinsic incentives it's still remains kind of like an open problem that's like anything else you guys have any ideas yeah those are my kind of first few problems things that are coming my own open the floor rent properties you guys know that Center guys used it the problem is our eternity they're like major Aragon great for our evolution the way with these contractor networks transfer tokens more officials or artiest cases like I was like there's someone movements like not like die or Solly ether it's just like your house and you decide to open it for our case as soon as you you have tokens are locked and rarely contract and these are governance tokens and not offensive and you kind of don't want that to happen so what we've done now to solve for this like airlock token manager app will have to be whitelist and feature or you have white listening where we can have their projects out to say any o tokens that are into this that's going to be the event will feature where yeah you keep blacklist certain contracts from being considered so it was right right now the standard someone adds the progress that but once we build like blacklisting materials that we consult but you know internally with an air clock so that's kind of like on our future of that when we've had like and user busts for that type of feature because also collects a few under our application sewing us the question there is like the tokens would be minted when the work is accepted yeah yeah and then we also want like really high dose Mario Party like you get you get died and some of the Dallas tokens and I think right now on their honor I think I don't know I don't know if there are ways as employee explore this I don't know but that's kind of like my part so yeah the second question it's actually funny we ran into an issue with with like when 3x3 Jas and so basically salinity had added 2d arrays into it was like an experimental feature for as part of their experimental you and neither wept through the web through j/s didn't use it and did support it and so we were like just at the time just not able to test it when I first launched the ceremony - and so we made this trade-off of whether you could like have multiple people for per submission or you could have welcome token this person mission and we decided that make more sense to they were the animal people because collaboration seemed more relevant at the time at the same time I think this is like a really really valuable like feature and like one week I think a lot and so anything like yeah in the future that's we couldn't do that yeah and we just we would have to I mean we would have to modify took it yes Heather away customized around like that right [Music] yeah it's our standing [Music] yeah and it actually takes more time you know I totally get it and yeah it's something that's like that is itself an issue is like standards take more time in there like this sell more expensive oh yeah so I appreciate the opportunity my question with regards to the amazing tolling to see something like been to a Manchester that night talking through layer the first thing that comes to my mind is when parts the idea like the tokens I am here Contracting I know one of the reasons is that we will relay interesting ways that makes the more guarantees around money and and many either just like psychologically speaking you know it's like when you're at the market that you're bartering with Sony if you like take the money out of your hand you're holding it in front of them you're much more likely to be incentivizing to have money then if it's like all that snow so I guess my question is I have to think that it's replace with the main idea is there may be 8 into north I same time or you know to them to at least ensure that people feel safe levels of like guarantees about the ability of the Toyota I think it could be considered like so the it's only delivering even inspiring so yeah you're right and not looking like a stronger guarantee which is like you have an extinct little over the plate that was it percent and it's like a much bigger addition like a trusts basically of my trust ability things with it but in that like they don't know that their submission is going to get a set to it but they give it like understand and trust that like at least the issuer has been funny you know and then whether or not they're honest enough to pay what should what how do we know they're like liquid enough to try yeah I'm again with again we've never tested that maybe I never tried it and so I think it might be was experimenting at least change behavior how much do they really care about that because you're right ultimately if they don't have they're still going to be close so yeah so that's actually a really good decide to segue into the healthy discussion so just to give you guys a background at some point last year you know every time we like to talk about families and we talk about how it works people like also accept submissions they say well the people who create the bounties or they want to like act as the Oracles we make sense sufficient because this is kind of the obvious one and of course in the contract you can have anybody who now can be an acceptor that you can have an array of them so it's like you know you can't have third party Oracle's and you can't have this idea of like not the issuer or not the creator of about team even one who accepts it but ultimately it's like that interesting and so enough time two people asked us you know like what about it people screech or over what are you going to do and so last year we started building a project called telphy and the idea is that intervene like a state project social staking and the idea that each user might have a stake of tokens that they have looked up and that whenever they interact with different counterparties that goes in the in the event that they kind of like renege on any their responsibilities don't pay people for their work that they might be able to open plate against each other and so third party Barbara hers would be voting on is away we spent a ton of time on it unfortunately a couple things happened one the you know the bear market the kind of force us to really focus and you know going about kind of our core competencies and two we hadn't realized like we're still very early that we didn't have any of these disputes happening on our website again with and so while it was nice for us to kind of know that like eventually this is something what it like it will look like we didn't eat it at the time and so that code is still open source is all available in the precarious but nonetheless you kind of like put it on hold what's interesting is as of like a week ago my motivation to rebuild Elfi has gone up significantly and so like this weekend during the typhoon and I'm probably going to rewrite the contracts just because like and then I'll give you the kind of background for why a lot of what what we've been what I've been thinking about at least is like with regards to the annuity was a so like so many different teams are building these like different puzzle pieces where I'd like for us what the most pieces counties that we know that peaceful and like Aragon you know his cows and the different systems they're like there's just so many disparate pieces that need to be put together and we know that like no single team is going to be able to do that and like build all of those pieces and put them together nor should any single team right that's like the Facebook approach that said why we're doing this in the first place is to have secretase do it but it seems like a lot of the issues around getting people to do that are kind of based on the idea of like trust you know and like and like responsibility and collaboration and these are social problems these aren't like or you can't write a protocol to do that you have to like change the way people act and so to that end the the idea I have and I don't know if this is gonna work but the idea that I have is that if we could just start having to use and individuals at stake on their values and say like we commit to any control you can take our money if you catch us not do that you know like we agreed to be collaborative if we stop being collaborative again and so just like having us put our money where our mouths are and say like these are this is what we stand for and like we're not just saying it but you can really hold us accountable to that and in the hopes that other teams might start doing the same thing and that we can maybe lead by example would have different teams in the ecosystem kind of all come together to say boy we actually do stand for this and not in a way that we're like going to dispose these values they're not like walk the walk but in a way that's like trustworthy enough that you could open claims against us and so today I actually can't really assume they can so hopefully you guys will hear about it maybe use it for you that you miss have value so you guys want to kind of dispel some areas well you make sure you don't recognize before so and yeah when we have that hopefully that won't remove the need for having standard values contracts and we cannot children's making is that you just kind of go in Clayton sigasi I guess the dad would suffer rather than eating like this contract you know it becomes a second formation layer as a liquid of course between two parties there I wish someone that has been working for the state over but this way it's more like these are our values as our money claims against us and that's like what simpler and it doesn't require the people that are I'll ask you to notice that would work with arbitration leaders it assumes that people they don't have yeah yeah yeah it's like the primaries that's a great thing again that's really projects and so a couple things that you said are very interesting the first one is actually our original telphy contracts did kind of require both science is saying is somewhat like that if you wanted to open a claim you would have to stay and then you would get that money back at their age right yeah but that was a requirement at this point I want to see if there's a way to make it like generally sound from a game theory perspective but at the same time not require an every stone to do that yeah more importantly this kind of like new view I have a saying is like it's not an agreement necessarily with like other people it's like an agreement about yourself yeah and you're asking other people just just hold you accountable with like what you arguing the other really interesting thing that I'll talk about and this actually gets to kind of like the question about who is gonna be the arbiter of these claims right now which is that Oracle which is a really really really tough problem and when we originally were working on the our idea was that we would use like that TCR armors or karate toki curated registry if the idea is that like you would have a token that could be used by a token holders look like curate who was both motors exactly yeah yeah to curate who was who is fit to be an arbiter within a certain enum list we saved that for a while and as time went on I talked to like denied him in a lot he gave me a lot of gripes about ytc our stock and like bluebird Craddock voting is not a good idea eventually I came around and realized like yeah he's great and that this ultimately is not a very good mechanism what's interesting is like if you guys know the Clara's project that's kind of what they do it's not exactly TCR but it's like token holders are the curators and I think already from what I've heard they've been doing a little bit of arbitration around use law or some other exchange they're like curating the tokens which can be added to the exchange and business is a bit if the next step okay yeah and I've heard there have been some like questionable rulings on their behalf which Italians can and can't be idea just because like people are biased and that like you can't get unbiased that way where we end it off when we kind of like the sunset of that researcher at the moment was actually the idea then so like for us right for bounties most of the claims people would have would be with regrets like a particular vanity attend most bounties are occurring with regards to a particular community and so an community in this case usually is like a town yeah and so the idea that like instead of having like one global order list or like the entire you know etherium ecosystem rely on the arbiters and if you're just constantly for take for sure the other thing that we kind of thought about a lot and this is like I mean maybe it was a bit of a rationalization but we like we would like to think this is true which was that like ultimately you know in the context of resolving disputes and like avoiding disputes right then instead of just worrying about like okay we have these disputed we have to resolve them and take whatever we're kind of like upstream and we're like well why do people screw each other over in the first place right people when you go to the like statement air B&B and versus like what you're saying in your friend's house would trash your friend sighs but people do trash they are being abused at the time and most of the time it's this strength of the connection between those two parties dictates how much they're going to screw each other home and so a lot of our perspective became okay well instead of assuming there's no connection instead of assuming there's no trust what if we could try to like build a black pen that actually build that trust how do we create human connection among our users rather than like assuming it doesn't exist and this is like really really hard and these are not solve problems but the closest we've kind of come is like to try to get people to realize that they share a lot of the same values that they're actually going to have in common because if you do that anyway oh you have kids oh I also have a son like blah blah oh you play soccer so is mine you know like when you create that connection among people they start to feel guilt and guilt is a much stronger incentive mechanism than any extrinsic tokens or saying and so that's like I need for our property shorter because that's like what we think Oh mommy this is like just getting people to feel better because and then it's work you don't really have that many disputes like if the community is stay strong but that doesn't scale because you can do about 200 people trust and this is like it's funny because at the time like a year ago almost we were like we're not big enough we don't need this yet good luck and it's only recently that we started like breathe asking this question of like our users are starting to say you know like I'm afraid I'm going to get scammed because again they just don't know each other and so we're starting to think of Caitlyn are we back at that point where we need to you know we've grown too big for that to still be a fair assumption my hope is we can still avoid it a lot of the work we're doing these phases instead of trying to have like one global kind of like Mounties Explorer and like registry about act like was thinking about them within the context of their communities and so the and then those communities get to know each other much more and making it easier for that to happen and so that kind of encourages it's like truly living style scaling where instead of it just being one group and then having to solve that you just continues to keep breaking people up into these like smaller groups where they can't know each other and if you want to sort you're talking about power I mean like a hierarchy and like the semantics information where you have like a parent community which is like graphic design and then like a sub community which is like illustration or the sub community which is like an debate astray shion's you know I'm like I guess that's a hierarchy of information and in some ways does potentially lead to hierarchies empower depending on like the number of people and the decisions they can make but I thought I think it's like not necessarily in that way and like ultimately in my opinion at least that kind of tree style scaling is like from computer science like that's the way things scale and so that's like the respectable thing but then I can see why the hierarchy would be yeah well what we're working about canonize ER is is it's all about consensus we're talking about phone as law doesn't matter organizations don't matter nothing matters if you can achieve consensus with everybody you can overwrite anything so our focus is finding out consent opportunity what everyone wants you know no one had in real-time and be able to track that and a consensus building way today everything finds the disagreement everything focuses on that people fracturing and that's within the communities as long as we do that we can't get that honor but in canonize ervices we have support camps where you have a super camp which is what people agree on and when you find something disagreeable as soon as their migration you push that down to a support in the sub camp so if you join a camp and so we do join captain editorial control if two people want two different things you push that out of the make consensus in the supporting subject so everyone still supports a super camp and reasonably stays up there and the bottom line is you still need to track all those differences in the lower level subjects and by definition if you've no concisely and quantitatively what every one of us that's incentives even if you could no consensus at scale you can take them away that's really really enjoyed that your projects economy I think is a big problem that I have to think about with regards to like the values and you know like heaven when you get those disagreements about that is how do you resolve them and I think that's really awesome like pushing them down 10 and we split the forwarding and all of that other kind of stuff from the from the canonization so when you join a can you get control of that camp so everyone gets a voice and it's all about consensus so you have the fewest number of camps possible and then we have what we call candidates algorithms that let you can I suppose you want so today if the input is on everything coming in if you're going to scale the hierarchy says we don't allow that 1% in published mechanics and we flip that upside down everyone uses a catalyzer algorithm that's basically a way for you to select experts that you trust and you use that in either algorithm it only castles low so you can see 90% of its I trust walk and if you can say that then you have consensus and you have the signal a around that what people think and signalling the kerning system sometimes all just about voting and disagreement and a one-time snapshot right if the camps I've got to be about falsifiability what will it take you get the campsite what will falsify your camp you define the experiment you do the a big experiment allspice that cap in you measure the value of that scientific argument as to how many people incomes births we can't just simply have a measurement the jumping camps and why and what it takes and again then the Canaanites an algorithm to default there's one person one vote that's terrible because the masses are far behind the expert so you switched it with expert Canaanites are everything and everything we prioritizes that lets the expert find out what the public assistance right now and why so they can address those issues better and amplify some of the crowd gets everyone back on board of the traffic experts but it's all the bottom line is is knowing concisely and quiet and I believe the first crypto community learns how to communicate concisely and quantitatively so you can go real-time what everyone wants their own beliefs not all the communities they'll start taking out all the hierarchy because hierarchies are always the guy the top makes the decision and everyone doesn't you that have that huge bottleneck but the Canaanites sir you have infinite delegation so hierarchies form up every single topic and so there's a little Kwame you can stay on that find out what everyone wants some when I start taking down that's and I think it's like the interesting thing there which idea theory of community needs to do better is like like getting people to realize we all have the same outcomes you know breathe 95% of it push the disagreement to lower level some snaps them out of the right hand side exactly and it's like if we can do that and like continuously remind people that like we actually agree on almost all of it but you guys keep track of that disagreement right right right right because you've got to get both of what everyone you've got to find a creative way with us and the intersection you do stoplights with an overpass but you've gotta track it and know it and monitor and Knox abuse but I've already got something different right right right or some blue guys and they need to have us and can't be the sensor and because the best done any experiments are like thinking it was around like quadratic voting and we're working on an Ethernet algorithm so it'll be both their ether and we're going to have a quadratic version so you get your vote the square root of the amount of meters so you get a small value so individuals have a lot more Hope than people who love and work independently that's the things you can select we isolate that so people can program any kind of voting all the kind of stuff token boning anyway you want you can select whatever catalyze to do any of that we're hand sanitizer calm do you guys have like a white paper or like video post yeah yep there's a white paper there on the front page and there's a help page that use it this is maybe I'll read this story check that I said that's an yeah because what you say in it all comes down consensus yeah and it's funny because like the word consensus itself like we use it right now is actually like not consensus at all 51 percent of people yeah maybe something like not actually what will work it senses media and they always talk about rough consensus right that means they know like a little guy walks right you gotta keep track of that yeah that's cool any other any other costs that are like Melvin to any of the things we've said like I said I know listen it's like my hope was that this would take as little time as possible that we would use as much time as needed any other thoughts about my current issues or now after you just you know talked about I understand you want to build those relationships and so that like you don't or the fact that these conditions can be returned to the people that do those but I was thinking that likewise deposit it would make sense to enforce that because then you're kind of you have more of a crypto economic play where anyone can look at a issue that's and say hey I want to see this implemented and not have to worry about the implications so the idea would be that like if it's like put your money in but not have to worry but if this submission wasn't accepted back to say yes so you're not contributing to an issuer directly you're basically just contributing to seeing something this is this is kind of like the thinking behind why so I'll give you guys just some more background these were curious so basically there's a contract or a function in the contract which allows the issuer or the creator and the controller early of the bounty to take all the funds out at any given moment and the reason we're having this function was that at any given moment if they wanted to make it like civil attack the contract to create a new address create a submission accept their own submission and drain the money on that way and so we said well it's gonna be possible we might as well make it possible in like a simple and easy way that way everyone can see came they would druid versus like we will not wise there are all these weird new submissions from users nowhere and that that confusion with just like benefit early in the effort and so I guess my question for you is like you know if imagining that like a third party could contribute and it would only go to the like it's sort of like not under the purview of the issuer you still sort of need the Oracle right you need left somebody to say is my contribution show the team go to that person on you know and the only way to do that is by having each of those contributors be able to these are just like yeah there are problems that's why I'm curious this is like a good idea yeah my thinking behind that is like that is some that occurred to me but if if we're able to ensure that that money only goes towards the person who implemented the past that's like the one less thing about a contributor can do it because like obviously you're gonna wonder except I already have against me the deadline expires your funds and then it makes sure that you're not realize that the order goes right now you can do that it's just like the in the event that like even if the deadline doesn't expire or if it does like the issuer could still do that and it kind of really gets to this idea that like ultimately when you contribute to somebody's parenting that they create a message written that ultimately like you have to trust them you know and that like their money is at their mercy whether it's because like basically because they're the world and then instead of trying to assume that maybe like you can live in a world where we don't trust them it's better to face the fact that we trust them just accept that as a premise and like a figure out how to act in spite of that but you can't yeah going back to when you said yeah you can refund contributions after the deadline you get to before unless they contribute much the issue in does it for you the issuer can also trigger refunds so this is the other thing is that the issuer can be if they're like altruistic say refund all the contributions don't send the money to mean and somebody back to everybody else and that also is there and so yeah it is possible we just tried to make it like as generalize as possible that way if the issuers are honest it can be honest if they're dishonest what will be dishonest in the open which at least makes it easier for everyone to know they were dishonest and that that like you know that's like the best we could do but you have that problem of like you have to trust the Oracle and like you're kind of mercy remains like seems to remain there and then one that I think about a lot of it I'm trying to get around but maybe those next set of arbitration solution there were the kind of I'm not sure we kind of got around that as in making the contract that were using everything you guys that's the jumping-off point for a lot of the functionality within the now right so everything is controlled by the Dow is so you know it's not like a user's address that can just do it at any point and in theory if it's a contract they can not have the ability to call the drain function which like sort of guarantees that they're ready to mystic right and like we went out of our way to ensure that there was no way for like alternate artists or people who've over approvers being added in addition to this contrary yeah I mean that's like that's a really good solution or like we have solution at least yeah because then you can kind of abstract that away like a contract yes you can just tell people to that works really what we want to do with people getting like community events or forbidding the fountains too because that about will become like your white list of community partners so it's like you already it's like right now I don't know if there's like there mechanism of the size of the mystery of one of the boundaries but if we watch the tokens of a towel then they feel like the first football like what what our roadmap for hermanos name is like a sentence at the court I have - how how you do like the like it just seems like if you have like this sort of Aragon community and there's a issuer of the bounty you know then they sort of get to you know it seems like the community issue with like a smartphone your act essentially that's issued about the end so they can kind of choose you know who could give a bounty too already so then if they're also sort of like the court like when couldn't they just issue the bounty and if they choose as a community to not issue the bounty if you go to them as like a court like how does that really different because these values is that break our rules then you can take some of the money that's in this other pot here if it's that was about to you but it's a probably submitted it's greater than any one single limit you like who's the Oracle like if you heart but yeah but it's like if use like the Aragon ports and it's like September but you know you know that's except it's great it's like community members they resolve it so if you track who has been accepted in who has been working on values you don't like this relationship and then people who have been like you know earning bounties so this probably not just like one person that's working thought maybe so it's like all the people that are like working on the task so either one but can resolve things because they have to use your human relationships first thought that we're all random with Carrie mathison's exclaiming bouncy that's just like not how it works in the context of the devil like all illustrator deserve like doing a basic routine those you know they might not know each other at all cetera for me that's like working out actually one can see a mere coffee at practice two years right - I honestly thought we talked about this but it's the problem of using her office or something that they're like they don't have any are there other issues with just just using that because it's like they're intended to solve like that mr. Bishop you have some criteria about the our issue I think they're like trying to solve that issue regards to like having specific like subgroups within Clara's which are like like two specialists in different areas you know I I think like my main issue in Clara sells more around like the nature of how that list of marketers is derived and that it's sort of like any it's like plutocratic and so anyone can and they have some randomness which like helps to avoid it but ultimately like you can still like civil attack so to speak and with your buddy and then that's just like not a South American is going to know that Luther Craddock voting is just like really not good it leads to a lot of big issues this Halliburton but it's like three years ago and people are still doing it and so and I'm like you know I've shared this with them and they kind of seem very steadfast and proving it out and so like maybe maybe this how it's wrong and that does happen of course sometimes but yeah my main issues with the plutocratic nature of how they do that is to your point I think it's like a really interesting question I thought it looked like a tiny tiny bit and so I'll give you a quote my gut tells me the answer might be the wrong answer but it seems to me that like any Dow for that printout for you to be able to like open wits against the Dow that down needs to be part of like a parent community of like a Dow of douses and that Dow of Dow would be the armourers and so like if I like let's say it's like there's like the Eragon community right and everyone community posts back to you they don't accept my submission and I say well the aircon community's lying to me I would go to like the Dow of Dow which manages like the reputation of the entire group whose incentive it is to maintain their their parent organization plantation and they wouldn't have the Harvard list and so the key is like you sort of like go one step up the tree for any typical whether it's an individual you go in community its community go to their like parent community and you might kind of trust them to resolve it klaris is kind of like the parent communities are trying to be with a parent communities of all parents by using the plutocratic kind of mechanisms to get a membership list I think you'd get a membership list with like curation practically speaking but like by having the in group carrying itself where that Dow Dow is like wood itself curate okay like eight out of nine of us think Aragon no longer spouses are values they don't align with us like we're gonna keep them out of this downtown so when it just link with the mechanism be different in terms of life this be resolution process but it would just be using like the token of the holders of the doubt that was instead of like Clara stuff in or would they be different process so I think the key is like for klaris and I'm Iowa maybe this has changes it's like based on my best understanding I know Claire us the way they come up with the list of our reviews is that like token holders evoke you like apply to be an arbiter and then the token well there's a vote on whether or not you should be accepted within the list my view on curation is that instead of having like token holders vote on the list you should have the list vote on itself and that like people with who are in our burgers within the list will say like this new arbiter applied like do we think he agrees where she agrees with like what Paris works just Paris works that you have like a Claro spoken and and then basically you you sort of state that right you basically walk it up and then you're given based on the amount you state then you get sort of a proportional chance to being selected his work is there no curation mechanism for getting statement to be a little it's open like anybody anybody anybody can buy these Claro spoken yeah and then based on the percent like the amount of Curtis tokens you how that's representative being selected as a jury member sure and that's it there's no curation that they're using it securing lists you know but beyond is no curation to be like dirt McCurry anyway just like go and be interesting that's another worse than I thought so they do you just like yes you've been but so who determines the thing those they're stinking so it's an economic game where it's like supposedly like the jurors are chosen at random and don't know each other and if they vote against the majority decision then the time sequence gets taken away well so if they're not majority so so so basically they sort of you know it's sort of this economic okay you look at the evidence and you go you know when do I leave everybody is going to vote for when they do like to reveal and you know so you're incentivized to but honestly or you lose your money that assumes that the majority is already on it I know enough I'm often tight majority is right I saw minority guy and so my mistakes yeah I mean it definitely has some some issues let you bring up it turns up like you're voting for what you believe is like the popular and not necessarily like to your heart because there is this economic game also just say what worries me about it the most is like it doesn't like the richest person win is like the richest person has the most share of votes and like do you want to live in the world where the richest people in our world determine like what is right or wrong I certainly know that like isn't that what ever here in the first place is like you know so yeah that's like a little worrisome to me I maybe they're right maybe they're on to something but I think as time goes on that many people will search realize like wait this that probably just plain I mean I mean obviously very interesting if you can get like you know my dentist I would think but even if you sort of have like a community in the Dow at the end of the day you know you're gonna have token holders in that Dow and you might have sort of like some rich token holders in that the Howard would they not you know in these sort of dispute resolution process be like like a higher wave if they have a market essentially so this is kind of what I mentioned earlier about the idea of like Dow's curating themselves yeah like for instance you looking like Wallach town right would you I want to join Moloch down by the tokens you have to apply to buy the tokens and usually apply to join yeah and so that can itself be a civil resistance mechanism whereby like any Dow is like this is a list of people we know are real people they don't have to apply to become one you can't just buy the token on the open market and that gives you membership don't you have to like try to enter and that group determines whether or not you are a real person and so from that you can have like different people can have different amounts of tokens but that can be independent of like whether or not they're on like a membership list and have been like civil verified and if I are civil verified and I select hurtness I bring people practically speaking within some context that is simple resistant that guy's a civil resistant list yeah and so it's like simple resistant lists curating themselves from like a community level to me at least seems like a better way of doing it that because then it that way you don't need to worry about we don't receive you kind of like that it's all simple resistance right yeah so so then you you just think you just do like a private about in terms of like just anybody who's on the list and just yeah and you just you a private and then you reveal and then that decision exactly I think like that you can do there's like interesting stuff around the voting like the actual stats like you know how do you ever commit and then a reveal you know is like good and at the same time you want to have information sharing and you want to incentivize people to share their ideas literally and this is actually some weird thing we experimented with Delfy was like you commit and the order in which you commit determines how much you can but it's like this like weird recursive way of getting the pay up so it's like like first I would get like 1 over N of the total reward and then the next person would get 1 over n of the remainder and so on and so forth and what n is would have to depend on how many hours you expect to have voting on that thing but ultimately the result would be that after I vote it after I've committed my vote it's in my best interest to share why I voted the way I did even before I reveal and so like because you do ultimately want people sharing like their different perspectives people do people are wrong sometimes they don't have perfect information we should assume that and so having the whole point of having a group vote the whole point of like what I would call the Delfy was when it's called like the del key been the dumpee method is like something that's existed for like 20 or 30 or 40 years and it's actually a way that like companies like do finance forecasting basically a like a group of experts they are they independently like come up with their own ideas they come together they share those ideas and then they go separate again and then they do vote but the key is they like did an initial vote they came to their own ideas then they come together and share what I think why they thought that and then they go to the summary but then and that's like a really interesting tool for like we have two pros but was reversed like who can be a voter I think like their self curating groups and then just having with in those rooms email opt-in right like you know I wanted the arbiters but you know there's something like arbitration this lawsuit or something about like maritime law and right I'm an expert in corporate law but I don't know about maritime law I will opt out to do that because I know if I rule in correctly and like my peers within that group seen a market voting on things we know he doesn't know anything about he knows like we're gonna kick him out and so it's like you have the group curating itself and like lust only like getting rid of like viruses and like you have a opti an idea you know of like where people only like they opt-in to do things they know they're gonna sue me seems like a pretty okay if it's simple if it's civil resistant you know so it wouldn't even have to be a TCR right like this was actually denied and then Tina took a curated registry yeah this is what Tina I'd have been suggested is he hated TCR so much she's like stop doing this as TC or as assumed that like took it welders curating this and when he said and what we were talking about it's like list curating themselves and then you know if you guys haven't watched the TV show survivor right you have like the tribe boats and like you are no longer in a track like you've been voted go to the trial and it's that idea of like the group decides whether who stays who's enters into that group and believes it's not some like third party group of people who have a lot of money or were like old government storage or anything it's like we are the group we decide who is in our group whether it's admitting new people one version a woman you could have one person one vote yeah you could have like based on the amount of time you've been in the community you might be able to get more votes like there's a ton of different mechanisms you can like experiment with but when you have because the key is that list just becomes like a civil resistant list emotion then you can do like one person one vote you could do like based on your history of like how often you vote maybe you should get more votes because you're like an active voter maybe you don't want that maybe you want to disincentive either cook there's so much experimentation there I don't know the brands for the key the cool part is like the civil resistant list because then you don't have to worry about the token balances or anything you can start to know that like these are real people that the group knows that they're real people and if the group starts letting it fake people the sort of they know that the integrity of their group goes away and I think this gets until a really interesting point of like how we see high quality people in the world come together is that they sort of like coagulate together high quality people we want to be around other high quality people and they will do the work it takes to make sure that the only people they hang out with or spend their time with are other like smart or talented people if they don't want to be associated with people who are graduated and this is one of the big property CRS was like if you were like like a restaurant and TCR restaurants like there could another crappy restaurant could be promoted above you by the token holders and by association because you were on the same list together your reputation might go down because the TCR s reputation goes down and you were on that as well and so it would like anyone like but alternatively if those restaurants on that list were the ones curating yet if the restaurants decided among themselves which was the best restaurant near under worrying of food critics coming in and tasting your food whatever the restaurants themself to know like who is the Mets and then I I think of these that's like a much better path than this gluten credit voting again like we have experimented with them we had a pendant ID yet I'm hoping Banyan Claro's will realize maybe they were a little wrong in there we'll try to experiment that way those are my thoughts when you think about what makes my kids to delegate to me my friend knows world-class acceptance in these high trees and so infinitely Asian but it's also real science of italic gets this huge treatment of italic never seen so everyone can have a jump to something right so we just have to formalize this track yeah and then it becomes very expensive to do one chain I said I don't like gas it's really like when you do all of their consensus ability in terms of our economy off chain then you can use champion than that because Oracle to try stuff on changes the chain can say we're going to use this particular cat as an algorithm to make the decision so everyone joins makes industries and we're gonna use quadratic through their voting and so that gives people as much and then term at a time XYZ type we're gonna make this decision and so you're watching the tree farm and everything inside screws I've read mentioned mr. Miller's remote happens using the desired capital whatever it is and then that becomes work on the deputy consul we do the contestant chain because walking stride [Music] any other it's now electricity is sun shining over there then it seems like your conversation has come to like a natural conclusion thank you guys for coming it's been a pleasure to have you guys I don't know a lot of your faces here I'm mark have you seen around apocalypse like I love talking about this stuff as you guys to tell if you have any ideas of like what we should be working on you guys want to work on it and maybe even help weather you know I work at consensus defense is great they fund our project and so if you guys need funding for your project maybe I can tell you something [Applause]