Fireside With Uniswap's Hayden Adams l KBW2024

[Music] hey Hayden good morning how's it going um it's too bad you can't join us here in Korea it's a huge crowd and it's a great place great Vibes and really awesome times because I know that you are a Korea fan you have a fun story about your first time in Soul Don't You hey can you hear me yeah can you he perfect hey uh so no problem so uh yeah so good morning morning too bad you can't make it join us here in Korea it's a huge crowd right now and Good Vibes all around but you're a big Korea fan aren't you you've got like a fun story about your first time in Soul with vitalic uh yeah so last time I was in K and by the way great to be here thanks for having me thanks for hosting uh I can't see the crowd but I'm sure it's a beautiful crowd full of awesome people um so last time I was in Korea was in uh spring 2018 uh almost N9 months before I launched Unis swab V1 and at the time I had a friend in uh who worked at the ethereum foundation he was the person who got me to get into crypto his name is Carl and Carl sent me a message one day and he said hey I'm going to be traveling to Korea with italic um you should come to Korea and I might be able to introduce you to him and so uh you know keyword might and uh you know I didn't have a ticket to the conference uh but I flew out to Korea for this you know for this meeting that uh vitalic didn't know about and I wasn't sure if it was actually going to happen um and my friend told me because I didn't have a ticket I wasn't allowed in the conference center uh and my friend told me to wait outside the conference center so that when him and vitalic walked past he would you know uh introduce us and so I like wake up early I'm waiting outside the conference center can't go inside and uh eventually Carl and and vitalic walked past and then Carl's like oh my God what a surprise you know uh so cool to see you here and then uh you know introduced me to italic um I I had gotten some of the original idea of Unis swap from some of his blog posts and I was starting to implement them and so I told him about Unis swop and what I was building uh the first thing he asked me is you know was the GitHub repo open source and I told him the the you know how to find it he immediately opens it on his phone and starts reading the smart contract oh wow that's cool yeah like within like a minute of meeting him and for me I was a little nervous because it was my first smart contract that i' hadd ever written and vitalic was like the creator of smart contracts and uh but yeah you know ultimately that conversation led to the Foundation Grant uh to a lot of support from vitalic along the way and so it's really important uh it also happened to be during uh you know when the cherry blossoms were blossoming and so so ended up being like a really beautiful time I had a great time in the city as well um and I got to you know that's awesome so you passed with metallic real time due diligence with your GitHub like on the spot that's pretty cool yeah he just like immediately like within seconds was just reading the code on his phone awesome very cool so like looking to this year what excites you about the market here in Asia in Korea like what do you see from your end uh about the growth of dexes in this area yeah for sure so what excites me most uh is just the opportunity um so my understanding right now is that uh centralized exchanges are still very very big I mean centralized exchanges uh kind of dominate across the world uh but you know I know in Korea and and uh in Asia that a lot of people just use centralized exchanges um and I'm really excited for uh you know the benefits of decentralized exchanges and uh you know for be able more people to be able to kind of like start uh moving towards I think that you know we're going to be able to make the you know the user experience um and the benefits of decks uh really like show through and uh I'm really excited for like what that means um for you know a whole like Global audience right today only about 10% of our users are in the US so our users are really like scattered around the entire world um including Korea and you know I think that like when you look at what happened uh you know a year ago two uh when when you look at what happened with like FTX and uh you know during the last like downturn uh we saw that a lot of centralized platforms uh you know there was a lot of risk uh in the centralization of those platforms uh and for me I think that that you know uh was really like a strong demonstration point of the the purpose of more decentralized technology uh and of decentralized exchange and you know building an exchange that or you know a place people can trade uh tokens that really you know all of the reserves are completely public are completely transparent how it works uh you know anyone can build on top of it um you know I'm really just excited about that vision and I think that uh there is so much opportunity for that to play out within you know Asia and uh within Korea and so I'm really excited for that very cool so like the first big time dex's grew was post FTX when people really started to trust dex's versus like centralized exchanges but FTX crashed you know two years ago so looking forward like how you keep on growing dexes how do you excite users and convince them that they're the future yeah that's a good question I will say that there's actually probably been a few moments in time we've been through a few Cycles now uh before FTX there was like you know what we call defi summer and that was a huge moment um of you know exploration for what uh is and isn't possible um when I think about like what the purpose of this thing that we're building is um you know I think about it is like the internet made information uh just like instantly Global and accessible around the world right and that that was like a really powerful unlock uh you know no matter where you are in the world today you have uh access to like far more information than even the most privileged people did you know 100 years ago um because of you know this like very powerful system that we built on the internet uh using standard information sharing protocols and you know to me what defi is all about is taking you know that same approach that that Humanity took to information and using it for a world of ownership and aets and so you know making a system where anyone can create an asset and it's instantly accessible to anyone else anywhere around the world um you know it's all completely transparent it's all completely standardized uh it sort of just works the same way that the internet just just works um and so that's like kind of like the vision that we're pursuing uh when it comes to like you know we we've been through many rounds Unis swap is sort of you know today uh considered pretty dominant in the decentralized exchange space and the way that we've managed to do that is not like just because we were some of the earliest but because we've like not been afraid to continuously innovate and reinvent what we do um right so we started out with like Unis swap B2 which was a very simple design uh and it worked pretty well um uh but we ultimately had to basically kill it by building Unis swap B3 uh which was just like far more efficient far more flexible um uh you know last year we launched a protocol called Unis swap X which again in some ways like competes with unisoft other protocols uh but is is you know aimed at just further improving the efficiency um and I think that like you know for us it's about a few things one we have to like continue to you know upgrade the technology to make it cheaper and safer and and more flexible uh and that's what we're doing with things like Unis swap V4 um and then we also need to like continue to innovate and push on making it easier and easier and easier to use um I think that like when you look back at what we launched with in 2018 uh it was just like very you know simple protocol and then this very simple user experience built on top of it um today we've like continued to push an innov at that level you know we uh in the past few months we launched a browser extension before that we launched you know our Mobile Wallet uh and and then we we have our original web app and so I think what we're doing is essentially continuing to uh you know think across the entire Tech stack uh what are the pain points that users find when they want to interact with crypto when they want to buy and sell a token um and how can we solve it right and so that's what even like what spurred the the purpose of our wallet right when when we looked at our user ticket you know our user support issues and the things our users were complaining about when they interacted with our website it wasn't actually anything on our website it was often like the wallets that they connected to the website and there sort of like friction points between them and so we're basically both like kind of continuing to push up the stack uh and trying to make it easier and easier to onboard and use and we're also continuing to push further down the stack trying to solve technical barriers uh to adoption to kind of further the uh you know goal of making it uh cheaper and and uh safer for sure I mean I think amongst crypto people we all agree that a de right now is easy to use is pretty simple right but we're crypto nerds for the retail people they might be intimidated by the wallets you know swapping that kind of stuff so how do you guys think you can onboard those next billion users who want to trade crypto they want to swap but they still have a bit of nervousness about the whole process yeah I I think that's a really good question and I I have to say that like uh you know you have to like start thinking about these systems I I think it's like easy for people that are like deep in the space to sometimes think that what we've built is easier to use than what it's actually than it actually is and it's like because people who are deep in the space have so much context so much knowledge and so much time to build up understanding um sometimes when I think about blockchains I you know I people often like think of them as these like completely magic new things I think that they're really cool and special but I I think that like one very simple mental model for what a blockchain even is is like it's almost like a server with like superpowers like you know you have a server but if you want your server to never go down you can use one of these fancy blockch servers you have a server but if you don't want a single party to be able to you know kick people off or or operate it themselves you know you need one of these fancy blockchain servers but then when you think about like how a server relates to an application and a user experience uh we're basically exposing users to far too many of the actual underlying mechanics of the server and what I mean by that is like what are gas fees gas fees are kind of like AWS credits right but like users don't when user or user sends an email they don't think like how many AWS credits am I going to use because that's like abstracted away for them um and so what we really need to do from like a user experience perspective is completely is like continue to abstract away the the complexity of the chain and so that means things like Network CES it also means things like um uh networks themselves like you know we we're entering this world ethereum is on you know what what uh people call this like rollup Centric road map which means it's scaling by having you know multiple chains run in parallel on on top of you know the main chain and that's useful for scaling but when you think about like the mental burden we're putting on users when we expose them directly to you know like here's a drop down menu and you see all of the chains in it that's like far too complex right people don't want to think about that also when a user signs up they don't want to think about like you know uh like self custody is a really important powerful concept very important that people have the ability to self- custody uh but when you think about um you know what it means today in like self- custody wallets uh it's pretty scary to people people don't think want to think if I lose my password I'll lose all of my money right and people don't want to think um oh I have to remember these like 24 weird words and that's how I if I don't if I forget them I'll lose my money if someone else get them they get all my like people don't want to like we have to basically like reach the levels of Simplicity of existing systems for new users while still like trying to retain the underlying benefits and so that means you know continuing to work on abstracting away the wallets uh something that we're doing right now uh for chain abstractions we're you know leading we're we're developing a protocol and and uh continuing to build towards like a really simple cross chain trading experiences and by cross chain and trading I mean that like users shouldn't even eventually see the chains but you should be able to buy a token if it's on a different chain that's handled to you behind the scenes um it's really about just like continuing to focus on onboarding um I think that's one advantage that Unis swap has uh relative to a lot of competitors and different parts of the stack or is that we uh think very full stack so by having like a customer experience team and a a user facing wallet um well still having like low-level protocol expertise we're able to like start to identify problems um that users are facing solve them on the technical side in a way that really abstracts them away from people for sure yeah so you guys have a Grand Vision about the future of Finance but it doesn't look like the SCC shares that Vision you guys were served to Wells know this recently and so can you share your thoughts on on this and how you might work with Regulators to try and convince them that your vision is not so bad and you're not some you know elaborate froster or something yeah look I think and by the way to maybe just for people who don't know a Well's notice is essentially is not a a you know being sued it's essentially the SEC saying we think we are going to we you know we plan to sue you and then next step yeah and it's not a lawsuit and then you know we followed up with a Wells known as response which is this is why we think he shouldn't sue us and that was maybe like four months ago and then since then you know um you know as of now there's enforcement action um uh you know generally most wealth notices are you know turn into enforcement actions so we don't really know if we are going to be sued or not um but uh you know the way I think about it is that uh the you know this technology fundamentally from my perspective is very empowering right the internet is you know was an empowering technology uh it's good for the world I don't think anyone will say that the internet is like only a good thing right the internet can be used for good and bad but it is like fundamentally useful for Humanity and and very uh you know and a very empowering thing um and you know in the early days of the internet um there was like a move in the US to basically Outlaw internet-based Commerce right e-commerce it was like you know this is too scary if people buy things on the internet you know they could buy anything and uh this is too scary we should shut this down and then fortunately at the time the US uh was smart enough that it essentially put in this sort of like um you know this uh Bill Clinton the US was essentially smart enough to kind of say okay this is like new this is important we should leave it alone let it develop um and you know definitely think about ways to make it safe but not like try to completely shut it down um and I think it was really ultimately very good for the US that have did that um I think for me you know I I talk you know when I when I talk to whether it's like you know people in the political world or Regulators in the US or in any other country um or uh you know I think the biggest thing that I hope from regulation is that it is aware of the technology and what I mean by that is that regulation um you know has a purpose right regul uh usually aimed at things like how do we make you know how do we make sure that things that are opaque become transparent how do we make sure that people when they invest in things they have like the right information um and how do we make sure that like you know people running the things aren't secretly absconding with all the money right and that's you know what you see with things like FTX and things like FTX fully centralized platforms really need to be you regulated in a particular way um I think that you know when you think about though like how do you make sure that some you know the reserves are actually there when you apply that same principle to a def5 project to something like Unis swop um you know it's completely like the the reason that you know Unis reses are there is because they're completely public in real time to the entire world and so a regulation that is aimed at like a specific company revealing their reserves doesn't apply in the same way to a Smart contract that has public reserves right you know and so I think that like for me My Hope from Regulators is that uh you know they are they they recognize the the benefits of the technology and they you know and they create rules that uh you know allow those benefits to shine through and ultimately further accomplish their regulatory goals um in terms of us specifically uh you know again I will say that like only 10% of our users are in the US and so we are we you know have a a global user base um and I I will say that we think that we will win if they do bring a case um we have a you know we we outlined it in our wells known as response which is public but we think that we have a very very strong case um is honestly often like losing cases in the US right now um in the past uh I think that uh Regulators have usually taken the stance that like you know they want to bring cases where they're very confident and they're going to win uh for whatever reason in crypto it feels like they're not afraid to take cases that they're going to lose um but that that's sort of where we think we're at but you guys are a very like multinational decentralized exchange obviously right like you said that 10% of your folks are in the US your users are in the US would you think about ever leaving the US would you ever go to Singapore po or jurisdictions that have regulations which are more you know conducive to your business um I get this I get ask this question um sometimes I think that uh if I had to leave the US I guess I would but I I don't think we're close to that right I think that like um I think that certainly like I think there's one there's like also there's like us users versus um you know where the company located I I think they're like right now it's probably like a slight disadvantage or maybe a mediumsized disadvantage to being in the US uh for some reason but I think on the other side like you know a lot of our team is based here um and you know I think that ultimately if we make it you know I think that like there's sort of like uh there's like risking this reward as well which is like uh you know someone has to kind of navigate this like we think this is like important technology for the us we think it's here to say um and we think that like we're kind of like a good representative of it and so you know we could leave and not bother to fight the lawsuit but then someone else might fight the last suit and that might ultimately be you know worse for the for the world if they lose and we think we're like in a good position so if ultimately you know we we think that like what we're doing is on the right side of history and we think what we're doing is like good for the world and so we don't want to like hide we don't think we should hide we think what we do is legal um and we've like taken a lot of care and effort to to make sure of that um so as of now we don't plan to leave for sure so we're almost out of time so last question um any updates on the fee switch token votes because that was a big deal earlier this year and you guys said stay tuned um any updates right now for that yeah so one thing I'll say is I I you know I currently run unisoft Labs uh the you know company that uh develops a lot of uh software we build the interface we build a wallet um the kind of governance system and the the kind of conversation within the governance forums and token voting is sort of uh the territory of the unop foundation um and you know less something I'm involved in dayto day um I I believe that that whole conversation is taking place in public um so I I don't really have any like uh specific news or or um things there I think that like that conversation will play out in the in the public forums and um uh yeah and it's kind of more the the territory of the UN Foundation which is not the not the or I run okay fair enough well hey thanks for your time and we'll see you next year in person here at in Soul yeah yes I hope to be here there in person next time thank you uh I think this the Korean heart thing yes the Korean Korean heart thing for sure okay thanks a lot yeah have a good [Music] one thank you Hayden and Sam for that um that was very