Patricio Worthalter I Future of POAP and the NFT Ecosystem | Pragma Lisbon 2023

foreign [Music] our very first talk today is going to be an interview with Patricio I'm super excited to welcome him he's been part of our ecosystem for such a long time and we're going to cover the history and what's next with Patricia so without further Ado please welcome back to the shoe on stage [Applause] you can always spot Patricio with this amazing orange jacket I may be getting the color wrong but on this other I don't have it if I don't have it none of you find me well it works really well and uh somehow it also matches this event's color too so I'm equally excited so our goal is to talk about how this ecosystem has evolved from when you started in this space to where we are now to where we are going and a lot of you may not know this but is actually the most adapted non-financial application on the blockchain and it's everybody knows what it is everybody comes to collect the poapp Ed of cheese we have over a million wallet addresses that hold co-ops right now and it's just one of Community favorites all around so my first question to you is can you tell us about the history of how did the project get started and what did you want it to do originally and is this what go up is now uh that's a good question because there's a lot to unpack first thing if anyone doesn't know on you and if you know it's good to make clear what's pull up because it has changed it has evolved and it's something easier than what many of you or even us believe it is additional collectibles we don't do Bachi satisation Sports maybe another station maybe a watch but it's additional collectible what's additional collectible the same thing also of a real world collectible but digital and that definition it may seem pretty basic but understanding that makes much easier not having to explain nfts not having to explain blockchains you can find any person that wants to know what Pub is and the best thing you can tell them is its additional collectible and that get us to that point of how has it evolved because it has evolved a lot and it's important to find the new ones to come to the answer to how it has how has it become the most popular non-financial blockchain application um it's a highly personal story and it has two fundamentals that made it be what it is um I've been full-time blockchain since 2015 for the first for the first three years I was mostly learning I've been doubling into Bitcoin around 14 but mostly from the side in 15 I finally managed to put my life together in a way that I could dedicate much more time to blockchains because blockchain is as many of you probably know and you surely know blockchain sucks all the productive capacity you may have available so once I find a way because it was clear for me okay for for working on this I will have to set aside everything else this cannot be as excited in 2015 I managed to to re-accommodate my lifestyle I go full-time blockchain and I start mostly learning and trying to make money um because I I was probably surviving for setting aside the time I had to become way more frugal so between 15 and 18 I am going to all conferences meeting the most relevant people and also the non-relevant ones they all have interesting things to say and and also buy and sell things that I find upon that's almost I stumble upon mostly I've been gambling um once in 2018 we plateau in in Market sentiment and such I find myself wanting to do something more meaningful than um buying and selling speculative assets that had no value the Euro mostly meme coins we didn't know but that's what they were and I started asking myself how can we use how can we do something useful with this technology Beyond a speculative asset so that's a fundamental one the fundamental for how Paul became a thing was I wanted to use this technology for something meaningful in a way out of a moral desire I felt that the environmental impact we were having because we were on proof of work at that time it feels so great to have left that behind and I was like we have been destroying this planet for buying and selling this stupid digital assets that make no sense what can we do better so I combine that with an obsession that I had from a very early childhood time which is being a collector I'm a collector I've been collecting everything that could be collected around my my environment so unfortunately on the early days I found myself pretty lonely there weren't many collectors in in the election space and not only that I mean in 2018 like ethereum was just out like people didn't know what to do with smart contracts yet and we were just saying experiments so yes it helps saying that it was lonely it's an understatement and especially in nfts there were maybe 50 people that knew nfts well um on that understood what they were besides buying and selling them and this combination of wanting to use this technology for something fundamentally used for an organically desired and my passion for nft is got my passion for Collectibles called me to a start power up and and that's what in my opinion I considered the secret sauce for the success we had because it's like if you want to invent a wheelchair and you pick two random people from this world and one of them happens to be disabled chances are that the disabled one builds a much better wheelchair than the random one that wasn't disabled and it was the same for me as a collector so there are hundreds of startups building Collectibles and and all your favorite nft collections like the patchy Penguins and the cool cards and all of them but the difference with pull up is that the founder of pop-up had this combination of wanting to do something good with ethereum that solves or or facilitates his obsession for collecting stuff so so that's kind of the secret sauce for for how we got here no that's great and it sets up a pretty good set of interesting questions I want to ask so we know your motivations we know your background and your passion um when you launched it and gave it out to people is that how who actually who do you think people were going to be who will end up using powerapps a few years ago well does does one of the things I've been the most wrong um it I mean now on things like it's easy to say but when we started thinking about what but what value we were creating the value we create is helping people preserve their memories this is this is good to understand also what we do at poor because power is such a versatile product and and because of compost ability it's used for many things and some that we don't even like like people use it for defy trading but more than anything else we help people remember things it's an ecosystem for the preservation of memories so I thought that our users were heavy we're going to be heavy for a square users or people that like social activity and and things like that and and theoretically that did make sense but in practice it didn't work getting adoption for probably in the early days was one of the most frustrated things that happened to me nobody cared um crypto people in in the community site had access to there were focused so much on buying and selling things and defy and math do you like having math and physics and cryptography and I was around with my collectibles and for the most part I was snapped I was like I don't care about these things I don't do Collectibles I I'm very glad that I didn't quit many times I thought about quitting and and now the thing has turned over um many people that were like difa is called and CK is cool they are like this is the only thing that I actually use blockchains for um so so I was certainly very wrong out of curiosity was it that people were not sure if they want to represent those memories on chain or or back in the day gas was too high so I want to spend all the money on transaction fees or they just didn't know this is something they should care about what was kind of the interesting sort of point where you thought that people would be more interested but they turned out to not be it's it's at a lower level and it's mostly about the the noise on the ecosystem the ecosystem is extremely noisy um if Global events are quite of an exception on not being a complete blender of different things going on so when people is exposed to pull up and 50 other things that that foresights are somewhat indistinguishable it is impossible for them to be consciously deciding I do this I don't do this so they were just a snubbing pull up because they weren't unable to qualify the 50 things they had in front of them and and this is why bear markets have been so helpful for us because when everything Market chills like it's been chilling and now it now it got overheated again with meme coins and such but when the market chills people say ultimately these pops are the only thing I have left from that Mania and some of them make them be happy actually most of them make them be happy because they have great memories either they were making money or having fun and going back to your question about what I was wrong there's something that's ironic because before the running power of I was a hardcore crypto person and and I had the full package of in a crypto person so I hated Banks um I am from uh from a PD underdeveloped country I've been born and I live in Buenos Aires in Argentina and we pretty much don't have a banking system as you know it and and I thought that the banking system of this aerial creature like like the Builder group of sorts and you know what these days or I'll be serving all sorts of mainstream activities from universities of all colors and shapes all communities Portugal it's a really active Market there's people that do sailing trips and create pop-ups they do parties all sorts of events and they use pop and they are happy with it and they understand it and they want us to thrive but the market Niche I expected to be the latest to use power up and and boy I was wrong it's financial institutions I thought because of this stupid bias that I had of believing that Banks were our enemies I thought that they were never going to use our Collectibles for reasons in in our balance sheet the greatest source of Revenue this is pull-ups only makes money with Enterprise Partners we we sell services to companies that need help doing nfts and and things with power our greatest source of Revenue its banks credit companies Swift swift was identified for so many years as as the company we all wanted to disrupt they love collecting power-ups they they are one of our best source of feedback for new features it's amazing and the markets I thought were going to be our hottest markets live entertainment like sports music art they they like pull up but they aren't outstanding in volume they use Pub like everyone else and and this was certainly an assumption and so so you need to challenge your assumptions so you don't make my mistake don't don't be biased by this silly industry biases like banks are evil um I can tell you from firsthand it's been almost Pleasant dealing with banks only as them being your customers not the other way around I assume well I still don't have a bank account and I personally don't I have Bangladesh that's an interesting statement on its own uh we that's a whole other talk on its own actually well so that's an interesting point because when somebody says collectible you're thinking like Oh I'm a I'm a big fan of this either like a an artist or like a a genre a music or game or or some uh some kind of known sort of animated thing here or like a tourist or I like to travel a lot and that's usually what I'm collecting and that's kind of the FourSquare audience you talked about but uh but it seems like that that was not the right assumption back in the day to actually see if that worked out um and financial institutions are your kind of customers how how are they using it like what are some examples and and what are what do people use for nowadays uh we work with many of them American Expressions regularly mostly for the marketing purposes um they want to position them as different from other credit card companies and and they give digital Collectibles to the record holders to survive with what's happening because like I mean I'm not an expert in great companies but I guess when you're a category leader your goal sudden so much making more money it's more about making sure that you will continue making money and how do they continue making money while speaking the language of of the upcoming generation and we love working with Amex because they use pull up for the right reasons they are creating meaningful experiences they are helping their audiences their consumers EOS blockchain Technologies for utility Way Beyond speculation they don't do anything speculative and that that was a coincidence it's not that we wanted it to be like that this thing that pop-ups are then Super financialized it just happened because of the side chain we were minting and that we are minting which is a no system used to be known the next type it never Cog marked nft craze like other networks so people associate power ups with things that you can't even sell you could sell them but now we that's part of your experience and your identity yeah and I know it's highly likely that in the future we will end up blocking the financialization of follow-ups that's a big announcement yeah yeah it is super nuanced and and we will see what the community wants it's it's a massive Challenge on decentralized governance because we we want pop to be a public good and the public good has to serve the greatest population we can serve on Fairgrounds so so we will only de-financialize power up if that's what makes the most sense for the greatest uh for the greatest Global good I do want to talk about that in a second but I want to spend a couple more minutes on some other use cases you've seen so uh American Express that's a very interesting kind of insight where they're using that to keep their existing customers happy um but you also have kind of larger Partnerships with I think like Adidas and Porsche uh or I think a couple other uh I'm forgetting but what are some of these other use cases or what are you kind of seeing some common patterns or are they all using it in different ways yeah um the the automaker case it's very easy to understand automaker of these days have this challenge which is they all sell the same thing they all sell vehicles that take you to point a from point B at the end and even two different from each other because of Regulation like for you to have a road legal vehicle it cannot reach you different so how do they differentiate themselves one of the things some automakers do is make their vehicles collectible and and polish for example they even have a collector's Club so for them it was only natural to start doing digital Collectibles and the composability benefits that they get by using power make much nicer power being a solution for onboarding their collectors that mostly are in web 37 because pop-up makes much friendlier additional collective experience than a raw main identity like podcast 780 mobile lab that is a company that offers tech support it's a curated experience so you're not gonna find offensive content on pornography so as an onboarding solution for companies that are in the business of Collectibles it is funny and and this is kind of old I don't know if Porsche could like it but Porsche is more in the business of Collectibles and in divisions of cars and maybe not exactly but conceptually they they create objects of desire it doesn't even matter if they go fast or further it matters that people want those and not other ones which is something that we were very hard in pull up to achieve um it is our mission in in our core team our Collective is to be an object of Desire so the financial institutions things is fun it has a completely different nourishing um just to wrap up the idea of the why financial institutions use power because it's not that they use power because they love Collectibles the reason why they use power up and and you know this but it is good to make it clear it's because financial institutions may have the highest density of Krypton knowledge out of crypto so for them being able to use this technology on which they all have become experts for something that it's not illegal for them like for many Bank employees calling crypto assets it's not allowed here yeah it's not it's completely forbidden so now they are like okay I have spent Five Years Learning why crypto is good or useful or bad and and with these little shiny things I can show see my work is Meaningful this is all it's not all buying and selling things that don't make sense so so that's the extension of financial institutions the automaker thing um a Porsche have this Collector Club and although they made very nice cars what people buy it's a whole experience another Porsche experience includes getting digital Collectibles and they even came up with a passport thing on which depending if you go to a track day if you meet certain test driver if you go to their Factory under Museum you keep collecting these little power ups and I don't know what utility they will have but they are planning cool stuff depending on how many a different Mission requirements you may get access to certain things which is a no-brainer right but the fact that it is happening on the mainstream it's pretty awesome we are really proud of having convinced such an outsider because in crypto week we are all in our power but once you go out of the crypto Barrel making people use crypto right and doing nice things it's a tough uphill battle and even harder if you're doing something that's consumer facing consumer like indicates if we were building a wheelchair for me doing consumer it's one of the things I'm the least qualified because I am a decent collector I am a decent Builder like I'm not a software developer but I try to get it but understanding consumer culture and consumer Behavior I am completely incompetent so we must start in crypto right and and this is why consumer adoption of free top Tech is so low give yourself a little bit more credit Patricio if that you've did great well so I feel like I was going to ask you then do you think is poappa a consumer thing or a B2B but I feel like you've sort of already answered we are finding out um it's been it's been a quarter mandate since we have studied probably in 2018 to be pragmatic and finding out the answers on the way um if if you asked me in 2018 19 2020 are you a B2B or b2c we didn't have any business so so we were uh power up to crypto hardcore people and we became B2B us as a strategy for getting greater distribution but spiritually we are a sweet to be as ethereum is ethereum service businesses that's a really good set of consumers but more than anything else it serves Humanity and it is pretty much a simple pull-up so so this actually now tries to connect back to a couple things you've said in the past or just a few minutes ago so so if you believe poab I mean you say you pull up as a public good how kind of do you think about what public good is in this context when you have businesses but also the protocol and uh individual users who also care and then the businesses who are also users but not but they also themselves have users there's a lot of things going on so how do you define what a public good is in this context and what does that mean to uh to you yeah being a public good doesn't mean being a non-profit it doesn't mean being biased towards diversity and inclusion on any of that the concept of public good is really abused and Young from different camps but all of us use digital public goods every day like Mozilla and the go programming language and different toolkits that you use for developing like if you're a software developer almost every command that you type in your console whether it's called or get or npm they are run by public goods some of them are sponsored by Enterprises many of them others are volunteer run others are high with it our model for how to grow power into globally adopted public good it's Wikipedia because Wikipedia it's to my taste the most successful digital public good that we've seen on Modern Nations Wikipedia it's a top 10 website by visitors in an ocean of commercial properties like in in a market on which all the leaders are Silicon Valley companies Wikipedia is outer with their flag with their credit and it is amazing how well they do and they are financially healthy they are governed neutrally something there has been tension but something Wikipedia Prides is that they don't opinionated anyone anyone can visit Wikipedia so we don't know how we will get there when I say get there being a globally adopted digital public good but there's priority that makes us really optimistic and this digital public goods have gotten there without the power of blockchain applications now we are getting better down governance we are getting better incentive mechanisms so in a way it feels that we have it easier of course in other angles we have it harder too in many but the transition towards power becoming incredibly neutral scalable sustainable um digital public good it's one of our greatest baits for hiding because it help us hire people that's after a quality challenges despite salary or whatever so so certainly a good question I think one interesting thing that you sort of touched upon in your answer just earlier on is that I mean you've talked about you just mentioned that you may consider not allowing transfers or rather cells and with something like this where the second something is on chain you effectively get a built-in ability to make that transactional and tokenize things and that's where composability comes in that's where what others are trying to do can figure out a way to fit something in um but if that's the world we're going to where everything can be tokenized and transactionalized how do you kind of keep the vision and the goal of this being collectible and how do you keep people happy where these remain a memorabilia of um yeah you're touching one of the all sensible naps um how do we keep an escarosite them an object of desire in a universe of abundance in the future it is safe to assume that everything will be tokenized every text message you send every picture almost every action everything you buy they will be tokenized assets meaning that they will have a timestamp and they will have an idea and they will have clear ownership it's going to be disruptive as the internet was we are we are at the stage of the SMS messages on the times when an SMS costed a quarter dollar 10 cents per minute yeah and then that that originated on a scarcity and it was great for the business and it's the same for power these days we don't have enough block space to tokenize everything so we only tokenize this power up your wedding power up how will power remain relevant and an object of desired in a word that everyone everything can be tokenized and everything will be tokenized um we have some ideas um we don't have a recipe um but the main fundamental we apply aspiring to preserve the quality is curation um pop that's something that hardcore crypto people hate which is not being permissionless although everyone is welcome to do a power up doesn't have a nice hard work or you didn't put enough effort on the description If You're Gonna Fly we don't let you have it so by doing that we make sure that pretty much all pops are exist are historically relevant for someone and in a word on Avion dance pull-ups will be an item that for the collectors mattered so so that's how we plan it is there is a concept in BC which is the atomic unit and the atomic unit is how you identify the piece that has the value on a platform and on Twitter it's a tweet and um YouTube it's a video and in pop-up our Atomic unit is a power up and it doesn't matter if there could be a notion of abundance on similar items because what people want is that tweet and a tweet is a string of charts it's not different than a blog post or or a hacker New Circle but the atomic unit it's what make people learn core to that concept so we are redefining our Atomic unit and we believe that we have a solid game it's not a given but we have a plan like us we don't have a plan for being a public good we have a wish we do have a plan for preserving the qualities that make Power be a source of happiness for collectors so so you continue to doing heavy curation and make sure that they are meaningful and people are just not making a pop of every small thing that they can think of um to really keep the interactions and Community genuine and say yeah making them have a cost um we are slowly transitioning into a model on all pull-ups cost money because they do cost money at least in curation so these days we are subsidizing many drops um most of them like 90 of the drops we subsidize maintain fees sanctuation cost but for global scale we will have to some to have something more scalable and money money it's a great it's an excellent equalizer because it works across all cultures this is a problem that we have today pull up setups as many communities as they exist on and for example it serves communities on many places that we don't speak the language and it's like how how do we explain someone in Pakistan that doesn't speak English or Spanish the languages we serve that the collectible has to be sweet we can't but at least we can make them know that it has to cost money so when they distribute it when they decide what do I do I pull up for they will probably do one for their wedding they are not going to them because they walk around the corner uh so so yeah this is quite an alpha drop that pops will cost money I think you can see a little bit of disappointment in everybody in the audience yeah but if you really care you're welcome to join our communities and find out why we are making this compromise we are pretty proud of it it's like the finalization thing it's something that we are going to as a community and we will see young age sentiment um making pop cost money is a no-brainer nobody can come up with a model and which pops remain free because uh host the sponsor like BCS are funding this strategy but eventually it has to be sustainable on its own it's not it's not a final solution exactly well don't worry anytime you come to a neat Global events the pause will be free for all of you well yeah because um when people get scared about this we say don't worry someone will pay them but it's unlikely to be the collector we say Buffs will either be paid by the producer by a sponsor or only after that if else fails by The Collector so I am a collector myself I don't want to feel a schemed every time I get a collectible we are gonna find out the model that preserves the convenience and the pleasant experience that just financially sustainable hope is not lost just yet um let's talk about something that's not perhapsed um you've been obviously very involved in the nft ecosystem we've seen a high and a low and we've seen that twice in the last few years what are some interesting Trends or themes that you're kind of excited about in in the nft ecosystem and what do you think is kind of things that people should pay attention to um yeah something interesting about the nft ecosystem is that it's no one sending me besides someone that may feel agitated by nfds but doing digital Assets in the shape of empties doesn't disrupts an existing industry so the ground is more versatile if if you want to build something in D5 or if you were to build something in Dallas for example because um let's understand blockchains as coordination mechanisms where do we see the most coordination inefficiencies we see a lot of coordination inefficiency in finance we see a lot of coordination inefficiency in governance especially cross-border governance or cross-organization governance so one could default to say yeah let's use blockchains for in improved Finance or or make coordination better let's do those and that makes a lot of sense but you have to anticipate that you're going to fight extremely strong incumbents that have all the power and they are going to make your life hell while if you're building on nfts you are not annoying someone because nfds are completely new the concept didn't exist before digital property wasn't a thing so you can embed new things knowing that not only you don't have people that hate you and want you to die you actually have a whole ecosystem and financing sources that want you to succeed it's easier to get financing for something that looks like it only needs to evolve to be a success it doesn't need someone to die for you to win it's it's more Akin than Landing a plane landing a plane is extremely hard you need to be an expert in or a pilot or something but at least you can be confident that everyone around you wants to be successful your passengers the people on the ground the air traffic control the company the investors they all want to land the plane so you have lots of Tailwind while if you are building on D5 it's like trying to escort a goal in football against Argentina um you're gonna have a hard time it's it's like you have Messi playing against you good luck that's a very interesting analogy I'll what does that mean for people who are thinking about what to uh to focus on though is are you saying that we should think about nfts may be behaving more in a self-isolated standalone way and not try to interact too much with other ecos not because other kind of themes in this space because the competition is too high or are you saying that hey I should pay attention to these things are minimize paying attention like to some other categories like how do I kind of translate into what should I take away from building something this year or next year if I'm considering starting something in this ecosystem unfortunately I think anyone building in nfts have to factor for a longer time frame you need to be realistic and you can't expect to be successful in only one or two years it's going to take much longer even with all the pretty Village that we have in power up we are in this sweet dominant position we have lots of capital our brand awareness is really high getting anything done it's still really hard and tough and and we find ourselves very frustrated so my main recommendation if you are willing in nfts it's just acknowledge that you're building for a market of 10 000 people and it's gonna be hard to make a successful sustainable business for the market of 10 000 people especially if you want it to be financially sound that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing it because there are less there are only a couple things that I am more confident than nfts being something that every human uses in the longer time frame like it's death taxis that surely both will happen digital assets use by most of the population it's pretty much a given for me so you have to be conscious and intentional when you build knowing that okay your market today is 10 000 people your marketing 10 20 years is going to be every human now that's interest rate and uh this seems like actually before I if I do a follow-up we may have time for one or two questions if you have any questions I'd recommend you line up there if you have time we can ask those questions to Patricio but if not we'll move on to the next talk um it's a very interesting point though because a year ago if you did like a 10 000 pfp collection drop you kind of had a market for that because you could be sure that there's at least 10 000 people in this space um those are one-time things if you wanted to make a business that's not long-term sustainable yet because you're this space is not growing fast enough for you to be sustainable as a business it's not that there's no demand it's just the sustainability will you survive long enough to to do it um and that means there's some interesting things that it kind of forces you to do whether you just kind of find a way to stick around or you hope that what you do ends up creating a bigger Market or you look at ways to be part of other communities um do you kind of see I mean this is something we talked about in the past but kind of how do you think about how Dows can can I collaborate with the nft ecosystem or kind of looking at something like nouns which is like a perfect mix of nfts and dials and public goods and and everything else that you can think of in this space editing Lessons Learned or other themes that you think are worth paying attention to yeah I have a personal bias towards playing long games and that's how I am by the way I I love questions so if you have any question um get up to the stand and and I will be happy to answer um I tend to play long games before Naval pravican was a thing and before the infinite Garden was what the infinite Garden is but I kind of love it I love both because it's what I've been doing so things like 10K pfps and highly opportunistic cash grabs I am very happy for those of you that managed to catch them and use that money for good stuff good for you it's not a game I know how to play so so I actually could say stay away don't take shortcuts um in crypto if you are talented you are going to be offered all kinds of perversion on your way you will be offered money so you can of make someone more money my advice is to be honest to to stick to values of of the uh uh Collective creation of value not so much selfish extraction um so so of course it's my opinion on on I know it's not necessarily shared especially in a highly financialized space like ours um but answering your question like my take is clearly play long games now your follow-up coordination does the combination of them it may very well be the longest game you can play in crypto that's a never-ending game it is pretty never-ending and right now the optionality it's the highest it's ever been there are so many things to do nouns it's in my opinion the only one true that oh I'm sorry if there are other down members here like of makers and others but nouns I'm sorry it has failed um for me I am pretty much done with nouns but it was or it wanted to be the only one true though um actually announced in this context it's not possible because how hot it is but nouns it's a mix between um Collectibles which I love art um careless but still it means species of Art and and daos and decentralized governance and and it's been a massive lesson during the weekend on the hackathon there's a section is that right there's a nouns section yeah they're they're getting a space just to kind of talk about this it is see how crazy it is now this is a proposal that I was hell yes I am rarely a hell yes but it's a proposal for having a team of experts running a section on its Global Lisbon for explaining people why nouns is a fascinating experiment um I encourage all of you to visit that section of the hackathon because it's mind-blowing and we've done it in in Bogota and in San Francisco and in Mexico and it is so fun and nice and educating the the knowledge you can acquire while playing games like like football and and throwing things at a wall 80 some parallel it it may be the the greatest balance you can find between having fun and playing games and learning about decentralized governance I mean if you think about it it's it's literally that somebody bought a an nft online and some of the fees were put into a Dao and then that Dao got a post where they requested some humans to go to another city to set up a physical station to tell you about what this nft was and get people excited about playing games and all of that happens all in a forum and in the real world to me is generally amazing and it can be yo any of those the one who buys the one who sells the one who plays the one who creates Australians the ones who travels it could be any of you permissionlessly it's going to be a crazy world it already is and it's getting crazier um so so you don't don't miss the nouns Faria or fair right I don't know how they call it it this time it's expected to be really fun also well uh looks like we're out of time I think it's a great need to end on I think your advice at the end was really good for for Founders just stay patient these things take a long time to figure out and when you're in a situation like us which is we are growing with the ecosystem and we're doing all these things thing to grow the ecosystem it takes even longer to see if your initial hypothesis was true and uh you may have to try testing out a lot of things and experimenting a lot to to really a quick tip um if you didn't apply for this hackathon the next one which is Waterloo in Canada and the one after which I think is Paris they both will have nouns activations right and and you should totally apply you also have to hack you can't you can't apply to a hackathon only to play games but it's not that it is a lost chance this is happening throughout the year um this calendar the calendar for this year for This Global in-person events is a hottest it's ever been so if you were on the fence like do I go all the way to Canada do go it's expected to be excellent thanks for that ad Patricia I love it well thank you so much please give Patricia a big round of applause