Fireside Chat with Kevin Owocki

pl v3 so you should feel very comfortable and safe and happy contributing with us um all fees collected in the wall will go back to a community treasury so that that's always a lot of fun this year tally is sponsoring fifty thousand dollars worth of bounties uh for east denver so please come and check them out everything from uh integrating tally into your dap front end so that when you clicked connect wallet tally will be one of the options that users can choose so that they can use your dap seamlessly then we've got six different features that we'd like to see developers here help us build everything from adding an nft portfolio so you can view your nfts across all your accounts within your wallet uh hardware support so we've already we're working on implementing uh ledger support but uh implementing the rest of the hardware wallets that people want to use with their in their browser uh then we have a twitter integration which is for um uh verifying your nft profile pictures uh after that we have sign in with ethereum uh so be able to sign with ethereum from within the wallet we have wallet connect support so that you can share your credentials safely with your browser extension wallet um so let's say you're using rainbow you'll be able to scan the qr code safely safely share your credentials then you'll be able to use the tally browser extension to use your favorite apps online and then sign transactions from within your mobile wallet we think that's a pretty cool use case after that we have three ecosystem wins so um we've identified common problems in the ethereum ecosystem and we're sponsoring bounties for uh you all to write eips and working proof of concepts so that we can solve these problems for everyone the first of these problems is single signed approval flow for if you done erc 20 transactions you know about the high cost of gas fees per transaction you have to transact twice so we're working on a infinite approval using our approval target contract which will allow you to do safe infinite approval for erc 20 tokens per dap so we'd like to see an eip using utilizing our contract and then a working proof of concept uh with you know your extending your favorite dapps contract code uh then another big problem in the ecosystem is you know we're getting more and more wallets tally included uh eip1193 which tells dapps how to integrate a wallet into their dap is you know excellent eip but it doesn't really envision a world where you have multiple wallets installed in your browser if you've ever tried to install multiple browser extensions you have to you know unpin one or deactivate one it's a you know real hassle to move between them we think that people should be able to use whatever role that they want for to use the dap that they want and finally um tally and threshold are uh offering a joint bounty um to use new pro sorry new ciphers proxy re-encryption tech to help build a social recovery mechanism so with that uh are kevin and kevin and henry here yet or all right oh okay okay great so uh we're gonna have me talk for a couple more minutes i don't know if any uh anyone heard me talk about this earlier i'm doing trying to do a fun little project this week i just got a new laptop i need laptop stickers i know there's a lot of nft artists who are giving out laptop stickers so if you have one come find me at the end of the week i'm going to take a picture of all the new stickers i've collected just from this week and kind of do you know a fun i don't know nft of nfts kind of thing um with that any questions about the tally wallet oh the open bar is that what you're telling me oh the open bar is open so please feel free to uh go get your free drinks it's been a long it's been a long day so uh reward yourselves um outside that i mentioned 50 000 worth of bounties you know tell your tell your dev friends virtual and in person so uh continuing past this week uh still lots of opportunity to do some virtual specific you know longer maybe more interesting and more impactful um uh bounties for both uh the tally wallet and its features and the ecosystem oh did you hear that pop the pop of uh pop of champagne on a that really indicates that this open bar is now open uh i was watching a show the other day where someone had to stall and then he says much ado about something and so i've been feeling like i really had to vamp like that recently um so outside of that uh just a big call out for everyone to please join our tally discord it's chat.tally.cash when you join the discord when you join our community you can um hit claim your pack we will uh ask you a number of questions we've got sorting hat style sorting you into how into dog packs we've got four different dog packs it's a great community over 11 000 members and a really fun weekly community call if you want to check out for more information on our bounties we've got developers.tally.cash again that's developers.

tally.cash fifty thousand dollars worth of bounties again tally is the first community owned and operated web 3 wallet and the open bar is open i think with that kevin do you want to come up on stage and introduce yourself oh henry's here too excellent i didn't see him because he's wearing all black and oh are those coming up here hey hey hey how you doing everyone thanks for coming out to this panel between tally cash and git coin what are we talking about today well first i wanted to uh oh no what did i walk into oh will you be my valentine thank you oh that's so sweet they smell they smell really nice um i will be your valentine oh thank you will you be my valentine yes there we go all right best best start to a to a panel yet we'll do the kissing afterwards yeah well buy me a drink first oh wait there's an open bar okay so talking about uh public goods public goods are good am i right easy it's in the name public goods it's good it's good okay so just wanted to start off with some questions about yourself origin story of get coin origin story of you well um i was bit by radioactive spider that's what gave me my open source powers wow really it really flubbed that one thanks guys i thought spider-man was was cool i don't know maybe i've been in my basement for the last two years um i started get coin because i relied on open source software for my entire career and never gave back to open source when you want to start a new project you install a open source database server app server open source programming languages and we're just all standing on the shoulders of giants and the idea was basically hey now we've got a two trillion dollar financial system all of the money that used to go to some back office on wall street and the old financial system could now go to open source could we create incentive systems to fund open source software so just kind of been a web 2 startup guy for a lot of years and then when open source financial system came along saw an opening to support open source software and uh that was kind of the genesis story of of git coin that in the radioactive spider what got you into programming uh what got me into programming i just think it's kind of neat to [Music] to kind of like give a computer instructions and you can see back that it follows them and um so much there's just so much opportunity to kind of build logical systems online and i think that that's really uh it's it's really neat what you can do when the world is being eaten by software what you can do with programming that and not having a girlfriend in middle school i can relate everyone's silently nodding in the audience because they can all relate okay um so git coin um i think one of the central things that bitcoin is known for is kind of implementing quadratic funding could you explain what that is for anyone who isn't already familiar sure yeah so um quadratic funding is a mathy way of running a uh a matching campaign so every quarter on get coin grants we have a matching pool of around three million dollars and what we do is we distribute that according to the results of a crowdfunding campaign and in a traditional one-to-one crowdfunding campaign if two grants both receive a hundred dollars in contributions then they'll both get a hundred dollars in matching and with quadratic funding what we do is we match off of the number of contributors as opposed to the amount contributed so if two grants both raise a hundred dollars and one does it from one contributor and another raises from 100 different contributors that second grant is going to get about 95 of the match pool so you're optimizing for the preferences of the poor in the money as opposed to the rich and the few which creates more democracy in how an ecosystem is funded and pushes power to the edges and you get the map the the crowdfunding campaign basically doubles the matching pool so it's kind of a really elegant way of funding public goods it was a mechanism invented by glenn weil and vitalik buterin and zoe hitsig i'm just kind of the guy who's who's bringing it to webb scale so that's quadratic funding and i will also say that there's other people out there that are doing interesting work in quadratic funding or in from clr fund as a friend and i believe that uh public goods are good we should have many different ways of funding public goods and quadratic funding is just the one that i'm working on but i'm friendly friendly with others who are doing other great work in on that mission so you talk about public goods we've said it numerous times already but can you talk about what a public good is yeah so a public good is basically something that's non-excludable and non-rivalrous so basically uh that means that i can't exclude you from downloading open source software open source software is a public good and i can exclude you from downloading open source software and if you download it that doesn't create a rival with situation where i can't download it so public goods are are good because they're just things that we can all consume and they provide a lot of the value to our lives but the paradox of public goods is that there's not really a business model for them because when something's available for free it's you know you have an incentive to free ride on it you're already getting it for free why would you bother to contribute back to it and that's what's called the free rider problem with public goods so there's all sorts of different public goods out there i'm obsessed with open source software because that's what secures our digital infrastructure but there are transportation networks uh information campaigns like journalism is a public good um the lack of climate change is a public good and so there's all sorts of public goods that are good and if we can prototype ways of funding them in web 3 i think that's one of the best things that we can do and then traditionally in the past so for example public good could be a traffic light or something and often times the free market hasn't really filled in some of these spots because of the free rider problem that you mentioned where it's free why am i going to pay for this where is the economic incentive to provide this service yep so in open source i know that uh in personal experience worked on a encryption app and for free with my own time and money and there's there's really no one's paying for it because it's free so were you working on open source projects in the past that weren't getting funded or went earlier in your software development career were there different prototypes that you were not able to monetize yeah that says um yeah so um first off like kudos to you for building that pgp tool that was widely used i think that that's that's really cool um i've never been that successful of an open source software developer and um you know i've launched a couple of different tools that were that were open source tools um throughout my career but never had one that had wide distribution and and if i'm being honest before before get coin i hadn't really tried because there's not a lot of money in open source software and i got like i got kids and a mortgage and stuff like that so there's like a systemic incentive that pushes most of the world's software engineers into working on closed source software and private goods and you know this is kind of like the opposite of the world that that we want to create with git coin where if bitcoin's maximally successful and if we can support open source software then you can create a crypto economic incentive for kids that graduate from school to just work on the open internet or engineers at jpmorgan to quit their job and work on the open internet and i think that's that's the world we want to create is people can can pay their mortgage while they're working on public goods yeah there would be public goods that bitcoin have already helped jumpstart that might not have ever existed because of those practical barriers that you've mentioned are there yeah or more likely i think what we've seen a lot is that people start a project and then they ship it and when it starts to get really used a lot the bug reports come in and that's what really burns out the maintainers it's not just the bug reports but it's the attitude of the people who are like why haven't you fixed this yet or what's your problem why aren't you responding to me and the maintainer's like well like first off there's thousands of you second off i don't owe you anything third off i quit so uh it's it's like you know that kind of that kind of dynamic we've seen a lot in open source we just summed up my open source career yeah there you go are there um what are the most successful or most interesting the the projects that have been made possible by get bitcoin which ones do you love the most so far but you don't have any favorite children yeah of course not aside from your children well i will say that one of the goals with git coin is to build a channel that greater combinations of strength and intelligence can come together and i think it's really important that um before i give you my answer to what my favorite open source projects are for me to say that the whole goal of git coin is to build a way that the community can signal its preferences and that every time you're contributing to a grant on get coin you're allocating where that matching fund goes and that like kevin milwaukee the guy who started bitcoin i'm building a credibly neutral layer for you to express that and i'm not turning any dials towards my favorite projects that's like the most important thing i think about quadratic funding is that it's the expression of the community that matters but um you know my personal opinion is that it's just really it's just really cool that projects like prismatic labs and nimbus and all these different eth clients are using uh git coin in order to raise money and you know we're we're just augmenting the what they're funded and and i think that that's great um super proud that in great coin grants round three and four that yearn urine finance and uniswap and one inch exchange raw alumni of bitcoin wallet connect is a git coin alumni ethers js um austin griffith is the first what a vitalik calls the quad a quadratic freelancer which is someone who's just funded by the open internet subsidized by quadratic donations so so yeah those are my personal preferences but the cool thing about git coin is that it doesn't matter my preferences it just expresses the community's preferences those are some fantastic um projects that you've heard that gitcoin and the community have helped uh fund and create so you know clapping to you yay and get coin don't clap me clap to each other we're building a peer-to-peer mechanism so your clap for yourself oh man it was i had so much more charisma on zoom than i do in person i don't know what happens what does you mean you've got so much charisma you're my valentine these flowers everyone this is so nice so um let's see not to you but don't clap for you don't clap for yourself but um with public goods maybe there's the tension between the you and the me and the us and so how do you see um shifting the benefit where in traditionally when you make software it's maybe just benefiting yourself how do you shift that towards benefiting everyone yeah i mean i think the the way that you do that is you make it into a a multiplayer game right so the nice thing about open source software is you can build it for yourself but then you can deploy it out to everyone from there and you know my my friend austin griffith i think is like the ultimate example of this like built the burner wallet for himself and then turns out it was useful to everyone else built eth.build for himself and then it was useful to everyone else and now he's building scaffolding which is a great way of rapid prototyping open source software and now it's freely available to anyone so we're really standing on the shoulders of giants when you look at the open source ecosystem all of this code that's available for free that you can walk into a hackathon at east denver and you can build something in a weekend as two or three 22 year old hackers that would have taken a bank 100 million dollars in like nine months to build 10 years ago which i think is cool that's what open source enables [Applause] so um i saw that in the past you talked about uh programming values into money what does that mean well i mean i think that basically we've got smart contracts right which are turing complete and you can deploy them to a blockchain network so you can basically build monetary systems that have values imbued with them because you're programming these logical circuits that encode your values into the money and so like you know there's two ways to explore what's possible in the design space of web3 there's empirical knowledge which is just like oh i ran into this project that's doing x and through my experience i can see it and then there's a priority knowledge which is basically derived from first principles so like from first principles we value open source software and now we have programmable money and we can program our values into our money so we should be able to build monetary systems that support open source software so it's like a first principles argument for hey what if we programmed our values into our money and built a better world uh but you know the double-edged sword with that is like if you give programmable money to someone and they have shitty values then you're just gonna get like more and more decentralized ponzi schemes so uh double edged sword for sure do you there is that double-edged sword where some of it it's the values in the money but the values need to come from somewhere in the culture how how do you think about promoting the hacker ethic um just been going around youth denver and asking people to be my valentine has that been working for you um i'm not really comfortable with you asking other people oh we've got a value of monogamy here all right um what were we talking about again um programming our values into our money how do you extra like get the hacker ethic yeah how do you uh help foster the culture that can uh create the values that i think we would all want to see instead of maybe what you mentioned before the uh yeah i mean i think that like you know i'm kind of lucky that um you know vitalik buterin talks about public goods a lot and he's kind of like the alpha nerd of the ecosystem and so i think that his his value set kind of imprints on uh all of us lesser nerds and you know like you know so like the social cred kind of matters a little bit there but the you know the rap like the real thing is that we've got a rational economic incentive to want to support the infrastructure like look we basically like everyone in this audience probably has their bags of like tokens that they that they that they love and then there's just like a bunch of like little building blocks that are kind of like scattered and organized that are the infrastructure underneath those bags and like it all depends on lib p2p and like death so like you know if you've got your bags that they're worth a couple billion dollars wouldn't you want to know that the open source infrastructure underneath of it is secure and well funded uh there's like a rational there's just kind of like a rational you just just point that out to people that we need to make sure that those things are funded and um and i think it sort of just follows from that but i'm trying to find new and interesting ways to just kind of let people know how much open source has made their lives better and being be an evangelist for that and um you know you can go down you can go down that rationalist route but i think another way that we're going to see get coin grants expanding over the next couple years is instead of just doing an ethereum pool um we're going to be doing pools with polygon and uniswap and maybe a couple other ecosystem partners and um you know the cool thing is that you can you we've built the ethereum ecosystem and get coin grants rounds one through 12 partially with with quadratic funding in rounds 12 through 25 what if we could build every other d5 nft and wallet ecosystem using quadratic funding and um i think that that's you know all these ecosystems have a rational rational need to build their ecosystem and so i think that that's maybe where a lot of the demand will come from okay for anyone in the audience how would you recommend they become the next quadratic freelancer uh provide public good okay take the green pill i'm launching a book called green pill this weekend take the green pill that's the meme okay i think the gift that you gave me for valentine's day were the green pill socks so yeah yep that's the gateway okay um where do you see uh get coin going in the future yeah so um well we need to decentralize git coin it's a big thing turning a company into a dow it's like turning uh an apple into an orange but i'm committed to seeing it through and um that means turning the centralized i could do anything all over again i would have not have built the thing centralized in the start i would have built it as a protocol for for grants but hindsight is 20 20. so becoming felia dow with bitcoin grants i think is number one and then what we're starting to do is go from funding the main ethereum pool to starting to run a bunch of uh thematic rounds so we're going to be supporting climate change longevity research and advocacy in get coin grants around 13 which starts in march and then we're going to be doing side rounds with different ecosystems whether that's polygon uniswap or a few other ecosystems that we're yet to announce and i i think that so scaling the matching pool horizontally into these other ecosystems is another direction that you'll you'll see us going and then just kind of um embracing and i think this is actually really important point um at the client level we we support client diversity and it's really important that the client isn't owned or the the network isn't isn't 51 run by prismatic or nimbus or these other things like i think the same should be true of public goods so i'm emphatically embracing a clr fund and coordinate and retroactive public goods and everyone else who's trying to build public goods funding tools because i think we need to have client diversity in our public goods funding too so um yeah tldr side rounds embracing other public goods funding tools and then just becoming a dow ourselves are what's next for bitcoin awesome and um to that point um i've heard things about bitcoin aqueduct could you talk about that a little bit yeah so aqueduct is basically i mean i'm going to test the audience on history does anyone know what an aqueduct is in the audience a couple students a history in the audience aqueducts are these things in ancient rome that basically carried liquidity from one place to another and um and um and so basically what we're doing is we're setting up a uh like a tokenized way of funneling uh funds straight from your project into the git coin grants matching pool and in return git coin dial will run a quadratic funding round for your ecosystem so basically like vitalik calls bitcoin a significant pillar of the ethereum ecosystem we can provide that same service to polygon or to uni uniswap like anyone who we run a side round with and it's just like an automatic way of there always being a bitcoin grants round every quarter because we're carrying that token liquidity from uh from your project to the matching pool and then the matching pool supports your ecosystem back so uh pretty excited about aqueduct and hoping to announce the first one very soon that sounds really enticing it does sound enticing right anyone in the audience want to start an aqueduct come find me after this and let's talk yes and um yes very very enticing um so just like kevin i will be your valentine thank you okay um so you know i'm from talley so i'm i'm curious just from your perspective regarding wallets is there anything that you want to see in wallets and anything that has been missing well i think that um one of the things that i expressed to value towards uh recently is around client diversity in the ethereum network which i think we all agree is important for the anti-fragility of the network and i've expressed even against my own maybe rational incentive to have client diversity in the public goods ecosystem in how public goods are funded which creates anti-fragility in the public goods funding stack and uh you know i think it'd be it it'd be interesting to to see the ecosystem of wallets develop such that we're dependent on many different wallets and pluralism i think is a good thing in many different places so um yeah we'll see if there's a client diversity in wallets over the next uh over the next couple years and uh curious to see what you guys come up with when you launch yes definitely tele.cache go download it shameless plug um yeah has there been anything on your mind with public goods lately that i haven't uh touched on or that you've you want to express yeah i mean i think that um i just think that we have this huge opportunity in this space to i the internet reinvented everything that had to do with information in society because now computers could send information across a computer network and i just think like that changed everything with entertainment media politics social media you couldn't even have predicted before you went through like the internet event horizon and i think that there's just i just see such a parallel with the internet of value now we could send value across a computer network and the parallel is that we could reinvent everything in society that has to do with value transfer that's a big deal and what i want to see is like yes we're going to reinvent investments and like art which is like defy and nfts but i think that people are sleeping on public goods and um you know how we prove it create a more regenerative economic system i really see an opportunity you know we're getting like the ethereum ecosystem is getting so like slandered in the in the mainstream press because of the carbon footprint of of proof of work and i think that there's going to be a huge opportunity in um when ethereum goes to proof of stake and we're using 99.

95 less energy usage holy that's gonna be a huge moment for us to turn the narrative around and talk about how crypto is good for the world and we can't just talk about it it actually needs to be true so i think we need to build more regenerative crypto economic systems and that's what i'm going to keep on working on at gitcoin and i'm going to embrace everyone else who's building regenerative cryptoeconomics and i think that that can be the ultimate legacy of this space and that's the vision of the world that that i'm shooting for is that we can look back on this stage in 2040 and say holy we're funding public goods way more than we were before and i hope that that's that's the ultimate expression of of what we do is that we create a regenerative financial system in open source so that's my big dream and i hope you all join me in doing that all right is there an open bar now or how are we on time there is i i think that um if i'm going to be your valentine i'm going gonna have to have a couple drinks let's go wait what that's kind of offensive man looking forward to working with you guys hell yeah thank you everyone are we doing q a are we over guys going to throw tomatoes at us what's next yeah sure questions questions hello first of all hello i'm a big fan of bitcoin and quality voting and funding in general i think it's a very cool concept but one downside seems to be that um it favors the project that not necessarily provide the biggest value to um things but um favors the project which are very good at marketing and can convince lots of people to vote for them do you think that's a problem and if so are there like mitigations to that yeah so the question was um projects that have a bigger audience are going to get more of the funding because it's kind of a popularity contest and if you're further down the stack like say lib p2p then you get less of the funding is that right yeah i think that's a valid criticism of quadratic funding and gosh i wish glenn and vitalik would fix that though this is called the canadian kinesian beauty contest problem and it's just basically a um a problem where you just kind of don't appreciate what you don't see and you know the equivalent in the physical world is like the sewers or like you know the infrastructure beneath our feet that you don't that you don't like really see and appreciate and it's hard to build a market that supports that so um it is a problem and i do think that um there's ways there's there's ways to like capitalize on that and the example that i'll give is that in get coin grants round four we had only been supporting open source projects in rounds one through three and then we added media projects to bitcoin grants in round four and i remember that like the daily no eath hub and bankless and um anti-prosthesis were raising money on get coin grants and that caused a bunch of debate like oh is anti-prosthesis like the twitter account is that a public good that you're just tweeting you know but but the the reality was that um when we added the media projects the open source projects got way more contributions because now they they're bringing their audience onto bitcoin grant so there's like a positive some game of bringing the projects that have the audio the audience on to get coin and then from there you just try to get people to add more grants to their cart before they check out so that's one way of harnessing that effect for good but i do think that there are uh it's still an unsolved problem to be quite candid the projects that you don't see and that you don't appreciate that are further down the dependency stack and i'll just really quickly show uh radical drips i think is a really amazing tool for uh when you when you're dependent on an open source library paying forward all of the contributions you get down the dependency stack and so that's an example of how pluralism and get coin grants is only like one part of the equation is is kind of the way that we get around that that problem so thank you for your question uh i will be honest that it's an unsolved problem and that's how i'm thinking about it so far you talked about in the next uh round of funding for bitcoin you're going to be uh funding some climate change projects i guess like what are you looking at in terms of those kinds of projects that you're actually looking to fund like how is that going to transfer from these coding projects to like real world kinds of problems yeah well actually in get coin grants around 12 which was in january we did have climate change projects in the round so like we've already done it um and basically it's like climadow and a handful of other projects that are tokenizing carbon credits or building infrastructure for carbon removal are the projects that are that are in there and um yeah sorry i forgot the second half of your question did that answer it or i i think that is yeah i mean i i guess i'm just wondering like how that uh if it's if it's not just going to be coding if it's going to be like uh irl kinds of projects or like network level projects yeah i mean i think that the goal is to take what we're prototyping with open source software and then proliferate it to all sorts of different public goods and climate change is one of the most pressing and so yeah i mean like we got to remove the dependency on github that's kind of a given as we move away from open source and then just kind of learn to explain this in less of a technocratic language i think quadratic funding is a little bit complicated as we go more mainstream but yeah that's the ultimate the ultimate thing that we want to do is have a quadratic funding protocol like a grants protocol that anyone can deploy for any public good that they want to support so um like basically the vision is to do for crowdfunding what wordpress did for blogging like you installed on your server all of a sudden your blogger we want to do the same thing where you can just install our grants protocol and you can run a quadratic funding round for whatever you want but we're not quite there yet and we're just iterating towards it thanks for your question i think you have time for uh two more questions i want to make sure i can geographically be diverse on this in the room so if i'm a bad actor um what prevents me from creating 1000 wallets um donating one dollar each from each account to try to get the most out of it yeah great question so the question is what prevents a civil attack which is basically making up sock puppet accounts in order to get more of the matching pool is that basically it cool yeah so um civil resistance is a unsolved problem in the space and i think the digital identity is going to open up a whole nother frontier for the space and i'm so bullish on projects that are helping to solve these problems we rely on bright id and proof of humanity and identity and a handful of other accounts in our services that you can connect to your get coin account and basically what we do is we assign every single account a what's called like a cost of forgery so basically the estimated amount that you are that it would cost to forge that identity and and basically the idea is to only deploy as many funds in the matching pool as like less than the cost of forgery so you have to scale up the amount of funds in the matching pool as you scale up the cost of forgery and bitcoin grants and so um we have this metric called the fraud tax which is how much of the matching pool would be misallocated according to civil uh attackers and it's just a cat and mouse game every round to keep the fraud tax low um i think the fraud tax in grants around 12 was something like 0.5 percent so you know 0.5 percent times 3 million is not nothing but it's also not completely misallocating the the pool so we're taking it seriously and it's an unsolved problem and yeah i'm really grateful for proof of humanity in red id uh because we're standing on the shoulders of giants with them thanks for your question that was a good one one more question hey thanks going for all you're doing uh i was wondering if we could maybe get you to hazard kind of like a utopian vision so if less people are working for like jp morgan and more people are working on public rather than private goods and we have a way to kind of monetize and fund that like it could precipitate kind of larger organizational type changes um i'm wondering if there are any that are kind of on your horizon even if you know you've got your fingers crossed for them and maybe they don't seem totally plausible but possible and within the realm of possibility what would i know yeah oh man that's a big one um i think a world in which bitcoin is maximally successful you could pay your mortgage by fund by like working on public goods and that's just like the base kind of world that i want to live in um and i'm kind of like i know i'm kind of like standing up here and talking about regenerative crypto but i i don't know like i want to be super careful with like trying to paint a big utopian vision because i think one person's utopian vision is another person's dystopia and i'm really just trying to build a channel where greater combinations of strength and intelligence can come together and it's the community's preferences that are expect that are presented on that um not mine and so i get i guess the vision is that is that we can all work for each other peer-to-peer in a mesh network of jobs and not have to work in these hierarchical organizations that are extracting value from society and um and from each other and we can all sort of like co-own the next version of the internet i get the sense that that's what a lot of people in this space want to see but you know a big part of a big part of of this also for me is that no one has root over the system so you know in web 2 we had this thing called don't be evil which was just basically a phrase that google tricked us into getting onto their infrastructure with and in web 3 i'm a big fan of can't be evil which is systems that like you know even if like once bitcoin is a dow like even if i if i if my incentives change and my value set change then you're not all going to get zucked because i have rookie over the system so um yeah those are some glimmers of it but it should be everyone's vision it should be aggregate of everyone's vision not my vision and i think that's the key part cool with that i think we're going to let uh henry and kevin get their valentine drink um and just a reminder that we have the open bar for the remainder of this time another big round of applause for uh kevin henner winston