Toucan 🛠 Toucan OffsetHelper for On-Chain Carbon Offsets

[Music] [Applause] [Music] and i started at eve london two years ago um just as a random guy walking up to a bunch of developers being like hey i have to say dear and um yeah then it was a grind two years searching finding whatever and then we officially launched weekend in october last year and um yeah and you can like toucan really is um building tools that allow people to um embed regenerative actions into web free so like i would say the goal really is to create an economic system that is in line with the planetary boundaries um so most of the economy today is based on extraction and uh we want to make sure that the economy that is building on webflow that is being built in web 3 embeds regenerative practices in the core fabric and the fastest and easiest way for us that we found to do that is to bring carbon markets on chain so and really harness the power and creativity in web3 and unleash that intelligence on the biggest problem that we have which is the climate prices so carbon markets essentially exist to put a price on carbon which you know carbon emissions are negative externalities and normally not really priced into cost functions of a company and the voluntary carbon market exists so basically to bring these two sides together so you have projects that plant trees or uh embedded like regenerative agriculture or renewable energy projects so they essentially produce positive externalities that are then attested by carbon standards that are essentially ngos that go like there and check that the trees have actually been planted so on the supply side if you want to have these positive externalities and then on the demand side you have polluters that want to pollute or not want to continue to pollute or are reducing their emissions but not fast enough and and want to compensate um so that's how carbon market exists today and there's a bunch of problems in that market the biggest one is that it's super opaque so there's a lack of transparency there's even double counting of these carbon credits and there's no like functioning spot market so there's no price discovery most of the market is otc um and so really what happens is that the middle man in this market capture most of the value right so a carbon project says you know like i'm planting these trees and after two years i have these auditors that come they check that these streams really grow and then they get issues to issue these carbon credits and what they do that they sell those carbon credits immediately to the middlemen to then start planting more trees and then there's a lot of speculation happening in this middle layer to connect that supply with the demand side which are like pollutors companies etc and yeah that's just like nobody really knows what happens in between and um what we did or like what our objective is is to remove the middleman coming in just interrupt you sorry yes cool so um so yeah two can really is about removing these middlemen in this process right so it's about connecting directly to the supply side to the carbon projects with the demand side so that essentially a bigger chunk of the pie more of the value lands in the hands of these projects so the way we did this [Music] the way we did this is that we allow owners of carbon credits to use toucan as an infrastructure to bring them on chain so you have today carbon credits exist in like off-chain carbon registries so essentially like centralized databases that says person a has 100 carbon credits etc and essentially two can what it does it allows these owners of these credits to remove them from that registry and move them over to a blockchain and then you have a token that represents that carbon credit right and what's important is that this token is in your c-20 token that comes with all the metadata attached so it's a project from brazil forestry whatever and now um the next step is that we love so-called carbon pools so we now allow people to group similar types of assets into a carbon pool to create a deep liquid market for a certain category of carbon right so we have two carbon pools that are currently live one is called bct which is the base carbon ton which is mostly renewable energy projects and then there's nct which is the nature carbon ton which is only allowing for nature-based projects so and there's more coming so why why do we care about this so you know what is better why tokenize carbon credits in the first place with a lot of benefits the biggest one obviously it's programmable it's composable you can build on top of it and really that's the biggest kind of premise in toucan is it's empower other people to use carbon as a building block and we've seen pretty cool projects already building on top of us in these different domains so um there's carbon-backed currencies climate is one of them but there's kuma which is a stablecon project there's another one in stealth right now that is building also a stable coin protocol on top of carbon there's cello which is backing their um stable coins with with carbon assets it's up for us so that is you know kind of this one spectrum is like using carbon credits as a collateral and why is it interesting it's interesting because it's an uncorrelated acid compared to most other crypto assets because it's a real world asset and everybody's super bullish on carbon so long essentially you know going long on carbon is probably a smart move and this is no financial advice um and so the cool thing is like you know dao treasuries etc like by holding some of their assets in carbon they're obviously diversifying their portfolio but also what it does is that it creates a demand pull and increases the price for these carbon assets and a higher price means more projects get developed on a supply side which is ultimately what we want to achieve so i always think of carbon as a collateral use case it's essentially we create economic carbon things so carbon things today are essentially you know the ocean is a massive carbon sink right um but what we can do by toking as a karma credit is we can create these economic carbon things where basically we lock carbon into as a collateral into you know make or die or whatever right and so the more people start using a currency which is backed by carbon the more demand for the underlying asset is produced right so it's essentially let's create the gold rush for carbon and you know let's hope that this has an impact um so other projects have been building like yield um optimizers or like you know essentially redirecting some of the yield towards burning carbon credits which i think is nice because essentially every time we produce value i think it's a good way to redirect some of that value towards regeneration um we have projects that are built in the metagross one of my favorite projects atlantis also here they have like trees essentially their trees in the metaverse are actually capturing carbon if you want right so i tried to explain that to my grandma on christmas and it didn't work but it would be cool if we could go back you know like in 20 years time and look back on a safe planet and be like you know it's all these trees in their metabours that solve climate change so maybe not but so what else what is um yeah so you know nft pro projects using carbon like you know basically let's gamify it let's make it visible let's make climate action the status symbol of this century because you know let's make it cool to do good and our premise is let's make it as easy as possible for people to do good by having this building block and embedding it so um what does regenerative by design mean so you know we have extractive systems i would say capitalism is a perfect example of an extractive system a sustainable system is you know it extracts and put as much back as it extracts and regenerative system is that basically puts back more into the environment that sustains us than we actually extract from it right and we i mean we all know that we're kind of at the edge of a yeah like big problem i would say if you have read the ipcc report that came out um yeah some big numbers that are supposed to impress you so um the carbon market is uh growing super quickly it's one of the best performing assets in the world um toucan uh we have launched in october and since we bridged over 20 million credits on chain had significant volume and uh i think we tokenized five percent of vera's registry whereas the biggest carbon standard in the world uh so we are definitely yeah it went faster than we thought let's put it that way um which has some really positive things like me standing here and talking to you but also really downsides because like scaling quickly in crypto generally scaling quickly has its challenges um i mean that's actually the reason why we started so when i went to eat london two years ago i one of my biggest problems was that i love crypto i've been at web3 for a while and all my friends and i are like environmentalists and it was always like this like how can you be in crypto and i always wanted to say that you know climate change essentially is a coordination failure web 3 is building coordination tools and so it's maybe the best tool that we have to address the problem and there was no project to point to and say look they're doing it right so that was one of the key motivations for me when i went to london two years ago to start this um essentially and um yeah the cool thing really is that we could build blockchains that are like running like there are planet positive by design you know like we could redirect some of the like gas fees etc to which is burning carbon credits constantly and that's it so um that is i don't think that's irrelevant that's more like you know how do you how do you as a corporation what you do so the more obviously the most important thing is start offsetting start reducing offsetting is not a replacement for reducing emissions obviously so i'm happy that ethereum is going to proof up stake that's the first thing to do and then remove the rest if someone here wants to hack on offsetting the historical footprint of ethereum please come and talk to me because that's the biggest coup and it's going to happen and i need more people so yeah there is an app that you can check out but alex is going to talk more about the technical stuff that's not the subject i know perfect um so no just laughing when people offset or using or like when they retire carbon credits on two can you get a beautiful little certificate um that allows you to track what you know where did what which project how much did you did you retire etc uh which hopefully was going to bring a little bit more transparency to this um to this market um yeah i don't want to take too much time away from you um so i'll probably just i think um i think it's the last time perfect yeah so i'm bullish on this mostly because i think uh we can bring the next you know the next billion users uh coming to crypto might come through the climate uh topic in my opinion because uh this is so much more accessible for a lot of people and you know i've always talked everybody talks about like what's the killer app for for crypto and blockchain um i think this might be one of the killer apps for sure because the carbon market is web one and we can just leapfrog directly to web3 and uh yeah it's happening it's people are you know people in the traditional market are excited and scared and so there's a huge educational gap that we need to fill and we're working on that and um but yeah i think this could be i mean i'm you know i need to wake up every morning and tell myself that we're not already doing um so yeah there's hope and that's where i'll leave it to alex thank you for this beautiful introduction um what i wanted to present to you guys today is the offset helper which is basically a way to abstract a lot of the steps that take you from usdc to offset co2 and this project right here that you're seeing right now on the screen is something that we've built for a denver where it actually calculates how much co2 you've emitted by doing transactions on chain and then you can offset it and it's using an early version of what i will be presenting to you right now which is the offset helper um basically to turn usdc because like as uh as um rfl just explain one thing that we really want to incentivize is when an incentivizer want to make it easy for you guys to offset co2 and you can build all sorts of dapps like the one i just showed on top of us but you know as a normal user what you would have to do is you would have to buy usdc you have to go to sushi swap and then replace that with bcd or nct you would have to come back to our website redeem it for dc02 and then you could retire the pc2 to achieve the actual offset and obviously that's a few steps and it's particularly quite a few steps if you're doing it programmatically because you would have to learn the like the sushi documentation you would have to go into our own documentation and learn a few of our contracts to be able to achieve this so the easier we can make it the better it's going to be for you guys and that's why we have the offset helper which essentially takes all those three or four steps and abstracts them and so instead of you having to learn all these contracts you just look at the offset helper it has a method called auto offset you call that and so long as you have usdc within either your wallet or the contract from which you're calling the offset helper this is just going to take care of all of it for you and it's also obviously always updated with our newest infrastructure like um for example one thing that's happening right now we're bringing in nfds on chain so after you do it on offset um you're gonna get an nfd for offsetting which is supposed to not have like actual value it's just a flex for you don't sell it don't do anything with it but um yeah we're gonna update the offset helper to have that in mind so you don't have to keep updating your own systems to match with us all the time which really makes your job as uh somebody that built on top of two con much easier um where can you find the offset helper this is a much shorter talk within the introduction as you can see guys um i can show you the actual code right here for the is it big enough for the offset helper and you can see this is the main method you will be interacting with you're going to give the address of the deposit token the address of the poll token you want to use because you can actually use bct or nct and then you're gonna give it an amount to offset and it's gonna just take care of it all for you it abstracts uh the whole process to these three methods which are down below and this is the offset helper you can actually offset using either two or you can use usdc v-matic v-eth um yeah because we i was taking care of the uh swap with all these other tokens though any questions about this or how you may use it to build or ideas that you guys might want to use uh like ideas that you have that you want to build on top of the offsetting process go ahead you have a mic actually there if you want to use it do we need a mic oh no i don't think so okay so um so who means the the tokens so there will be some organization which is buying the the actual carbon offsets from the authorities i know eu or u.s or whatever and then they need to lock it and then mean the token because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense right so the um so we operate in the voluntary card market so it's not these carbon credits are not issued by authorities they're issued by um so-called carbon standards um there's right now the biggest one is vera they have like 75 market share and then gold standard and some smaller ones so these are essentially ngos that that go to projects that are planting trees or switching from conventional agriculture to regenerative agriculture or do renewable energy stuff and they attest that they have planted those trees and they basically will issue carbon credits for each torn apartment has been reduced or removed so um these credits now live in the vera registry which is a web one database that has its challenges let's put it that way and um so the user when they come into twitter they basically delete it they you know cancel the offset in this off chain registry and they move it onto that zone when a token is method so there's a process where if we go into detail really what happens is that as a user you go onto you can you rent an msp which is called the empty batch anakin which essentially represents a batch of carbon credits which you'll bring your own chain and that nft you know has when it's created there's a transaction hash that hash plus some other metadata and needs to be put into the vera retirement process as a pointed towards the nfp basically right and then this carbon offset has a serial number and that serial number is then stored in the nfp so essentially we have two pointers we have one pointer from unchained to off chain which is a serial number we have one pointed from off chain to one chain which is this transaction hash plus for the other side um that connects the two basically right so and then it's no longer it doesn't no longer exist in what well like in the world like basically now the single source of truth for where this offset is is unchanged no right now it cannot become one way okay okay so so originally the system was supposed to generate this uh this carbon offset point which could be both by i don't know big oil big glass of whatever yeah i mean our goal is to move away from this offsetting scheme because like if you think about it carbon offsets are packaged positive externalities somebody's just doing something good somebody's going to come and check if you really did something good and then you're going to get a problem right and the um only way as a society that we came up with how to use positive externalities is to match it with some negative externalities big oils for instance right so i think what we can do in crypto is actually find more interesting use cases for rewarding the good that a project is here right so by retiring carbon credit you remove it from the market right so you can claim the underlying environmental benefit for you but you don't have to claim that because you have polluted you can disclaim it because you want right or because it gives you access to an on-chain community or because you know you get a fancy nfp or whatever you want like that's i think where we're going to see a lot of the um like innovation happening and like what other ways can we come up with to incentivize the retirement department so if i do want to pollute can i buy a token and then return it to the eu no you don't have to you forget all these like it's not has nothing to do with eu or any regulatory so what are so what's the so why would anybody buy this uh because they want offsets but i mean i mean this is from there from there with this very company yeah um basically because of consumer pressure or because they want you know huh they want to do some good but like honestly mostly it's the cost of capital so there's a lot of esg money flowing around targeting specific you know specifically looking for companies that have that are carbon neutral or have a climate strategy and it's just a lot easier and i mean you have and it's it's peer pressure right you have um you have like microsoft google app like they're all coming out and saying you know we're going to be neutral even historically whatever and then others feel like they have to do the same so um yeah once the um has been retired on vera how do you continue to ensure that that carbon is still permanently stored does varys still continue to verify that is there a link there or what happens so when a project is certified and karma credits are issued a portion of that goes into a buffer pool which is basically like an insurance scheme to if you know let's say some trees have been planted and uh part of that forest burns down then that's when like carbocations above the pool are basically also cancelled to make up for that so there's kind of like an insurance model within barrow to account for that but is there is there a time because it's insurance usually it's um to be able to call yourself a carbon a carbon credit has it must have a 100 years of permanence to be considered a carpenter yeah but most credits today are so-called avoidance credits meaning that they replace a you know they replace you know like new energy projects for instance they replace coal or this kind of stuff so the permanence is less of an issue because if it's been avoided once it's been avoided forever permanence becomes really an issue for removal credits where uh carbons should be drawn down from the atmosphere and let's let's say stored in a tree you have to make sure that the tree is still around for like 100 years there's like a very very limited amount of carpet removal credits because um they are a lot more expensive and because this whole permanent thing has not really been figured out yet yeah so much we've been looking into creating a different accounting mechanism which is based on like year tons so basically um it only you know like by breaking up into years you can say you know a tree averages out for like 30 years for instance right and then you can uh get like 30 year tons for one credit this kind of stuff but it's also yeah my brain was just firing off there i was like yeah it's not good enough because by like it's a starting point right um everything everything in this market is not good enough yeah like let's make it clear like everything is like this is uh imperfect like this value chain is completely broken uh there's problems on the verifications front there's problems on the project finance front the problems in the market there's problems on demand side um so it's a big challenge to change all of that um what problems are you seeing oh so the first one is that there's a bottleneck on the verification bodies yeah uh so there's a huge backlog yeah basically um then it's super it's largely manual it's a largely manual process like people are literally flying there and hugging trees to find out what like the diameter is like because like really there's no technology um there is problems especially in the there's literally fraud in that meaning that yeah uh the baselines are fake meaning that like my question is like what what's something that's vera from being corrupted as well right because they're because they're not this like an institutional body they're an ngo but they're still kind of like reputation is the only currency right sure all they have is the reputation and they were like a trillion current standards in the early 2000s and like basically there's been like a filter like there's been a triage happening and like bear and gold center are the ones that like stick out because of their scientific rigor and this kind of stuff so they know that as a standard they're only as good as their reputation but to make it very clear like there's still a lot of dramatic projects in there like they're not perfect yeah exactly so i was going to be like who checks them uh today there's like there's news there's new projects that are coming online that are basically running almost like rating like you know like rating credit talking yeah yeah but then you have like triple a credits but i mean honestly i think we need to go towards a more data driven approach yeah um and this is like this like i i spent nine months in the venture builder modern uh looking at this whole value chain what the starting point is yeah we ended up building this first because it can create a pool to then like allow others innovation to happen immediately so we need the infrastructure we need the demand for the supply chain chain and now those projects starting to work on like drone you know drone-based verification like satellite images and this kind of stuff and we can if we can connect it to the on-chain registry that we build and you have all that traceability back into the token from the order like that's where we're gonna get better that's our idea yeah please build this great i don't see like it's the holy grail i just wanted the other side of this like so co2 co2 markets essentially get their value from being polluted tax pressure right yeah so like you know down the line would probably want to look at using these markets to keep applying such pressure because then it would it would be a virtuous cycle right yeah and then you know uh yeah that's kind of most of the questions i have and then very case prepared a lot you can't prepare it i love it yeah well that's we were really struggling yeah yeah sorry about it it's okay um very prepared i really wanna i really wanna have a booth downstairs also if you wanna watch more about like will we be able to lean on you guys when we get back it's basically we from the morning to late at night we have people around uh there's gonna be me sometimes there's michalis he's also gonna be here sometimes and there's other people too uh marcel oh i don't i didn't see myself okay marcel um yeah we're gonna be around we're gonna help you out um you know when hacking anything you need we can help you out yeah because that that i think it would be a huge undertaking because i think the the way you redeem the token like you said like tokens are created equally if this itself would be a new token standard for you if we do go down that route and we have we work we're working with like we're working with like like projects already that like want to skip around the others that have a bunch of data and that's why we call it the meta registry because essentially like we all need a way to keep track of like who has how much but it needs to be interoperable right like carbon credit from banner gold senate or a carbon credit from whatever standard you're building um needs to be able to transact and like talk to each other yeah and um well that's good would be to like build an oracle that draws in satellite data that's immediately redeemable and like i think i don't know if this for certain but my flatmate is phd and um from remote sensing and they said you can you can literally stream such data to the resolution of um it's like just to like it's not as easy like somewhat data itself won't cut it yeah okay um a separate question you mentioned i came in a bit late sorry about that you yeah so each token like each carbon credit when it's brought onto you can um it exists as a tco2 so there are different tcs for each project and each minute and so there's a basically a list of attributes that is attached to that specific project so you know where does it etc and then we have these carbon pools and they work a bit like a berlin club or any type of world we have a bouncer standing in front of the ball and says you know you can get in you can't get in and so that pool only allows nature-based tco2s or carbon credits to be deposited into that cool to mint and nct so entity is the nature current and the cool thing is you can go back so you can burn your entity to redeem any of the underlying tco2s um so you can still you know by holding nct essentially it's a it's a claim to any of the underlying carbon credits so if you still want to offset or you want to redeem a specific project because it's you know you live in peru and you really want to have support project in your room but like this is how you can do it sorry the tco series yeah uh the mft gets fractionalized in the process and is the batch nft bring them on chain there's two nfds he might be asking about the retirement yeah which side on the supply on the bridging are on the bridging yeah yeah so we bring them on as like a batch or let's say you know a hundred a thousand whatever and then that batch gets like broken up into twenty two okay so there's a quantity here fractionalized so where does the value of the token come from so if i understand correctly if your token is this offset the company cannot use it and cannot use it to slap a green level on their products they can they can yeah they need to burn it okay if you if you retire then then they then they can redeem this with one version no you can never regain the weapon it's just like i mean there's like it's enough for for the vera company not to sue them for for fraud if they impair if they buy the talk and then burn it so if they buy a turkey and they burn it they get a certificate that says i have burned the hundreds on the power i've been hired which is why it's really easy to innovate in that market but it's also a mess so um but yeah like there's at the end of the day yeah where does the value come from the value comes from people thinking that it has value and paying up money so also nice you will speculate but in the okay so yeah so you can already burn it so it already has like a uh like uh other markers yeah i don't think everyone in the world would agree with that statement right there's still people that are like skeptical of like tokens and what the role of token with this market is and not everyone would say that the token is an equivalent but there's enough people who agree with that and our goal is to you know move the whole car market on chain and i think there's a real chance and destroy as many focuses as possible because every cannot district organization to green washing products i mean green wash is maybe not the right word because because you're actually you're paying for the token that means that you're in the end you're playing the the tree planter yeah with a very long it's a results-based finance mechanism yeah so burning a token means removing it from circulation and you know there's a project that you know every time it's carbon credits they can ultimately be you know it's a marketplace right at the end of the day you were talking about growth being a problem like you kind of hit like you said that you were onboarding so much carbon that it became a problem um what was the problem and how do you solve that yeah i mean it was more that we were a small team and we needed to keep the bridge working you know like it's just like um so yeah all over the nation just like not going to sleep okay not enough sleep not enough people um and so there's not an issue with like not enough carbon being available from the bonds to come on chain no i mean yes and no um it's a problem especially for carbon removal because it's a supply constraint market at the end of the day the demand is bigger than the actual supply and so a lot of the carb removal projects are kind of sold out to like 2024 whatever so which is why we don't have a carb removal pond yet so we're kind of working with uh people to source that to make sure that you know we have enough supply to have a liquid pool and chain for that but yeah that's something that's not going to be hopefully in the next couple months do you have anything built into offset like your own chain actions and the problem has been generated from that um can you propose if i guess like as part of this there's some other compute going on and things like that yeah so what we do is that we like every time there is uh every time we take a feed for instance which right now there's only one fee when you redeem underlying tco2 from the pool uh half of that is sometimes more than enough that these used to burn carbon um and the same thing with we're thinking about introducing a small thing in the bridging and then we will basically automatically burn some of that part of that feed so kind of leading yeah by example to make sure that whenever we extract with that if you were asking about offsetting like your own wallets uh transactions that were that's what you're talking about but we're like we're working on making that more transparent for like we're the first kind of um like we're the first users and we want to kind of you know every flight that we like you know making sure that like it's fully transparent like how the two can operate and that essentially like you know this b corp b corp thing um and build like creating an equivalent for that would be would be amazing and then also you know allow other taos other protocols etc to adopt a similar standard to really like i mean we're offsetting this event that's the city that we're in so um so yeah like we're trying to which we're trying to build a bit of awareness in the in the cryptic community for us um which is really like become like two years ago in our videos i could tell you so there's definitely one that our goal is not to like yes i mean that would be great right but honestly like there's these two things like we're right now essentially the infrastructure layer so what you're talking about really is like the is an incentive layer like what do you that can be built on top of this right so um i would love if somebody was you know built like an mfp project for instance that only allows you to mint an entity by burning carbon right somebody is doing that yeah i know like like there can be many more right like they should be i know at least a few yeah so they're you know this way we can create incentives for people to do that right but it's not our job to create the ultimate incentive right now our job is to make it easy for others to build to create these incentives and be in like nfts and the mentors and like whatever um amazing how you said about the trees yeah that's really cool i can't wait to yeah like also in like uh like went through gaming and stuff like it'd be cool you know if you could have even in minecraft or these kind of things that there were like special items that you can only get if you like burn like a thousand on apartment or this kind of stuff right like just ultimately like what do people's value and what are people willing to pay for essentially and um yeah really you can get really creative yeah we have uh like yeah do you know simone's she's like one of the core organizers of like these like like a lot of youth conferences and she was a jury at youth london where where it's all started and we talked uh yeah after months or so we talked and she wanted to like i don't remember what it was basically was about sending her flowers uh virtual flowers and um that we had the idea like they were cool if you could actually send virtual flowers as like a gift or something like that to people and that you could use you know offsetters to grow these flowers you know like um this kind of stuff i don't know like this there's there's definitely room for for funny things and um consumer faithful you're like really like just gamify it and just make it fun and then you eat it yeah it's really a bad content one more question for the sake of all the speaking people and which blockchain that you are we are right now important on we are moving uh we're deploying a part of the stack on setup and we're looking to be another change so we are discussing if we should bring some of the um like nct for instance you know the biggest stack is to bridge like all these different things and then like at the top of it you have these cool tokens and we're discussing whether or not we want them on eve because projects like maker have you know very clear strategy towards uh words like key money and sacrifice so it's a bit of love you want to enable the doubted out collapse because and i think that would be probably like we have to make sure that that like i'm happy to wait maybe to like if also switching from what i say yeah yeah so i think that there was some problem altitude on top of your protocols i think that yesterday was a thought yesterday on on the showing point there was a talk from a project what was i think using your tokens for something but i couldn't regret the idea because i didn't know like the base what was the product remember was the keynote it could be i think that they were trying to create these dows which would use the carbon tokens in order to incentivize someone's change in their own uh proximity i'll need to look up the schedule because okay yeah i really cannot remember that many uh details yeah yeah there's a there's i don't have the list of all that but there's like 450 or 40 50 projects building okay um also like lending you know like you can take a loan out against your car right is i mean let's say that british yeah not yet no i don't think so um so what alex touched on so when what when you offset or i don't want to call it offset because offsetting has this compensation when you retire credit right for whatever reason um you you guys if you get an nfp essentially like a certificate that says you know i can specify you know for what you know like you know we commit like an nfg while setting these answers down so it's clear like you know um and there's the possibility to build like an aggregation on top of that basically kind of you know sucking in that data and these different keys and saying look that airline for instance like if you imagine that has offset or retired enough credits to call themselves carbon neutral kind of positive whatever claim they want to make but obviously you need the real data on that like in that example which is always harmful so this program is called a region network oh yeah yes it's from robert on top of us we're partnering with them directly they want to they want it on they want to basically so they're in the cosmos ecosystem and they want to launch nct the nature carbon fund on cost marks using toothpaste so yeah we're collaborating so which is technically when you retire the tokens like also for example do they literally we want to make sure that the total supply in fact it's not possible if you try to central zero address the contract will say no okay that's going to be helpful so they get actually burned okay function directly in the t2 a free uk and a 5k one yeah um so right now the only business model that we have is that when um somebody wants to retire and wants to redeem a specific carbon credit out of the pool um that there's a key attachment so you're disincentivizing them from taking the credit liquifying the gold yeah no no we're just independent to pick the tcu too yeah you can do it automatically and you get like the lowest quality dco dues and that's free i think you'll get the oldest the oldest credits yeah you can get them so an entertainer right like let's say nct has one it's valuable yeah they kind of lose value with time so you have ncg which has a cut of vintage cutters of 2012 so you cannot put in credits that are older than 2012 okay and that uh acceptance criteria gets updated every year so next year it's going to be 2013 etc um we want to incentivize people to like they want to burn like they're going to want to retire they want to incentivize them to take the oldest ones which is still free but if they want to pick a specific project from like 2019 2020 whatever then we make it second and we like we have the code live to have a bridge feed but we haven't put it in place yet and we're like kind of discussing how we want to put it in place and if we want to put it in place uh and it might be dynamic it might be that there's still a free option but there's like a if you wanna if you want to bridge it super quickly then you pay extra right right so also it's quite a dramatic it could be quite controversial decision though like setting fees on certain bridges as well right yeah yeah maybe you wanna oh that's not possible right now like okay we we built the bridge so you know we decide right now where we thought i mean everybody could do like a rap is a swiss non-profit uh but there's no chicken token yet but um there's a clear path for its decentralization i've gotta say where trump [Laughter] i don't know yeah so it's hard to tell because there's no transparency on the opposite crisis right so so it's not like we always know at each point in time like there's like this arbitrage or whatever are the companies themselves who know this dark uh dark markets don't they provide the arbitrage which is necessary because if the tokens are cheaper then growing out by tokens on top of the value right so they are gonna do their return themselves yeah i mean right now there's an arbitrage opportunity one way right so when the when the token trades at a higher price unchained then you can buy the credits for off-chain then there's a clear incentive to move them on training really this is our model to get supply and change like that's really like this is about like we need to make it attractive for people to move on chain so that's just how slideline like you know works um but right now if the prices on chain are lower than the price offchain you cannot go back but you can have all the functionalities that you have obtained on chain so really like there's not really a big reason to go back if you agree that the on-chain token is has the same value as your pdf certificate that you would get from better so and that that's an educational and lobbying and you know like we we have people working on that specifically um and also working like on uh because though you'll like basically abstract all the functioning stuff away for corporates and just like pay with fiance i guess the risk is not the total price goes lower that's not a risk but because that's not a risk because if it goes higher on chain there's people that are smart enough that they are tokenizing supply and dump okay yeah right like if the price goes to 100 i can tell you i will go buy some carbon credits at 10 dollars and i will tokenize it and i will sell them to the pool and bring the price back down so that's how that's how 20 million credits landed on you know like because there was a clear incentive for them to do that so which uh authorities they need to teach in order to for them to respect the tokenized versions and 20 token version equivalent yeah so yesterday we became a member of aita which is the international emissions trading association which is basically like a a meta organization where all the carbon standards are also part of so we're doing heavy education in there uh we have some people that are super familiar with people that are super skeptical of typing so there's a big discussion happening right now ultimately the market's going to decide right so and if you know if corporates agree that this has the same value then it has the same value um so our strategy there is like um the reality is that today most of the most of the people who sell carbon credits um they have to secure the supply because there's no spot market right so how it works is that if you have if you're a retailer or carbonacci hitter you need to have a team that sources carbon credits right so you have three four people they have relationship projects they're going to do forward contracts with these just to make sure that you have some supply and you have that supply of stock so you have to front the capital so it's quite the capital intensive job so what happens is that most of the retailers have like three projects that they can offer you or maybe five and the big ones have like 50. now that's on chain essentially it's a warehouse carbon that is always accessible 24 7. so by making it easy for these retailers that already have relationships with customers and corporates etc to tap into that on-chain supply that's a huge huge benefit for them right what does it globally reduce the price of carbon offsets want it in in global perspective to reduce the price of carbon offset because now the the market can be more efficient so now the prices are currently lower so that means that it will be cheaper to buy actually i don't know offset of 10 tons and slap it on my pack of chips um yeah that's okay i mean the because the same amount of money would go to the to the project right so if the price goes lower it means that there's less than two years which have right so the money goes close it's closer to the to the people foreign but also i think like that like we need higher prices right we need higher prices for to have a bigger demand pull for more projects being developed so our thesis is by making it easy and finding new sources of demand also within crypto and this economic carbon things that i've had like that hopefully will push prices up which will mean that more projects can go up yeah i i only take i don't take problem with that just a little bit because because we're forcing we're again forcing uh an externality on developing nations right they still need to consume energy right why because because they're gonna need because they're developing nations like the consumption of energy is good up until a certain point and then over that is over consumption but all all across that curve and consumption you know you're improving healthcare education infrastructures i haven't really thought about it too much but just on the surface when i think of carbon prices going up i think suffering why because aren't they going to be paying the price for these carbon as well they don't like it's a voluntary market so they don't have to pay that right so that's true the developing nations are in a prime position to produce carbon content yeah right now this is this is what this is why i think our idea is so good it's a huge business in brazil that's exactly what i said earlier because if you can if you can make this incentive layer at least equal to or greater than the value it costs to graze the land and sell beef that's then you've immediately stopped having a deforestation yeah exactly right so and as a honestly like we need the developing countries to like go from like directly jump over coal right into renewables but they need finance for that right so this is a source of finance right because that can be like essentially when you when you develop whatever beautiful energies or whatever you will you can get karma credit because it replaces something right it's a form to help the developing countries essentially to move to leapfrog right into a more clean way of growing um so and then as you said before they could use these carbon credits as collateral and to raise other money to fund other projects exactly like that's that's another thing is that today cargo projects are mostly forced to sell their inventory to finance future stuff exactly but if they can use it as a bilateral to get out alone they can basically go along on carbon themselves allowing us to have natural capital yeah and like um the cello for instance wants to wrap their collateralization uh the rate of natural capital currencies up to forty percent um it's like that it's like a lay one actually they were coming there too anyways um so the this means like 40 of their stable coins uh can be backed by natural capital currencies right now i think it's a billion worth of stable coins that they have in circulation so there's 400 million of demand for national capital currencies just from setup um and we know that you know make it out has announced this clean money thing but they have no clue how to do it and um but like i really like the idea of like you know if if you can choose in which stable coin you transact and you know that one stable coin is uh back 40 50 even 100 percent buy clean assets and essentially you can make a choice which they require to hold your stuff in yeah which directly creates an impact and it hasn't happened and like yeah just between them is effectively arbitrary because they should be equally [Applause] and yeah and we've never hold the pack so yeah no but um i love this yeah but there's still like it's you know like there's a long way to to get to and the hardest part is on like the the mrb the monetary working verification right because that's where yeah that's where a lot of the challenges lie so i personally is a business long toucan but i personally i'm half german and half french so it's a really good question the best question and the best question i i personally think it was a mistake from germany to move out of nuclear before moving our coal yeah um ideally we don't need either of them but if i have to pick i would put nuclear at this point in history obviously france is putting a lot of their nuclear waste to russia which is you know like they're kind of it's another externality that is basically just down somewhere so i'm not saying that i'm pro-nuclear or something like that but i like and we like we try to be realists as much as we can and the reality is that we don't have a lot of time to solve the climate crisis so we will solve the climate crisis within a capitalist system that's it like we're not going to change the system yeah to solve the climate crisis first like i do think that we need to change the capitalist system to a certain extent in order to you know really have a regenerative economy worldwide but right now like we just need to we just need to pump a lot of money to the global south basically and make sure that it lands in the hands of the right people to incentivize the right things if you can't do bank transfer to brazil easily um um like how are you gonna like do good climate finance to like a specific project in the jungle like that's you know so crypto really huh you can't understand something like exactly like this is why this is why die and saturn is huge in argentina and it's like you know because just a stable coin is like a mind-blowing innovation right just because this one is actually stable compared to the local currency and plus it's like instant so literally the money so i'm the president of the oxford group that are here today and like we our budget for this was getting wise hey we're talking regeneration man is it finished i think we're doing some random tests yeah yeah you want to join yeah [Music] yeah i mean it's building it's the price is well is i guess you know expanding the can infrastructure which that probably would fall under that yeah it's building with carbon um or i mean so like the idea would be then for example like to do it with imos and then let's say that while you're contracting once okay that's your yes good like why because like gregory is uh so it will be deploying about eatmoss and then moving into region later or what's the plan i mean that would be great what does i mean what is it for a um yes please because yeah yeah i would love i would i mean i would love that and maybe it's even easier man because yeah yeah um do handle that the whole consensus without like adding additional right-hand verification of the different changes so once they have it they already are connected to all egm chains yes so cool i haven't looked into like like having this like long reading list of like nomad abacus layer zero like that was the problem with the language i mean it just like just gets longer it just gets longer i mean everybody's like um who wants to hack i mean it would be cool to like maybe not have yeah like i don't know if like three teams compete for the first prize and then like only one team gets it i don't know and if i think like all teams like submit something really valuable it should be important that we kind of reward everyone that's cool i want you i want to see you guys so we decided so we have two prizes right so we decided to just do one prize of 8k [Music] we are allowed to do two prizes but i mean probably you could have done 10 prizes but everybody wants to build something cool and also i think with amsterdam you have some sponsor amount and only like share of that is actually price money the price money is very it's a different bill like it's yeah you have to pay the sponsor thing and then you also wire that yeah it's not the same amount it's less the price money oh yeah the price money is just right on yeah it's really nice when you want to see it it's really a show if you want to actually get here yeah yeah all right and just to get to there to go to where that is carbon on chain um i guess another question is like okay if we wanted to work with you guys like later down the line in that career ones yeah we don't we don't we don't wanna we don't hire okay like nobody because no kids [Music] no like there's like 25 plus open positions i guess okay um plus like there's a grants program like you know if you don't want to work for us but you want to work like alongside us and there's an open thing open and apply like if you don't find a position that fits you just apply it yeah i mean we're hungry for talent like really like everyone [Music] but we have we have a grand program with coinbase for like projects that are like getting this off the ground we have another grand program with zela which is much bigger for projects that build on two camp um and um and then there's a venture like ecosystem venture arm that is kind of developing right now for like actually like supporting projects yeah we're building this up right now because we're like we just closed around and there was like much more interest than we could um i'd be totally interested in helping with that yeah yeah yeah big time well i finished my phd in october you've got a bit longer way to go but i'm doing i'm doing actively doing i'm doing a phd in hp solutions to climate change oh really well i mean there's also yeah i mean there's also ways to get people that are not like a hundred percent right because like building a developer a contributor program also that is like more loose so like you're just a contributor but you're not like uh um yeah exactly and then you just pay the tokens and all right whenever the drug comes down you don't know why not don't do it why don't you it's not speculation gained and you won't get any users i think it's more about rewarding like it's about building you know you're free to do something for marketing or whatever really depends on how you select yeah just add more add more like grants like you know small grants you know from creating a poster media content okay youtube video whatever hey this is this is the superstar behind you hello hello hey hey hello so i walked into adam two years ago at heath london and i pitched this year like in the corner there was like just a bunch of people that didn't have a project yet and uh that's where i ran into adam and i said that's the dumbest idea i've ever heard i need to come in and fix it this is right yeah how many engineers how many of these until now until we close the fundraise it was basically we just bootstrap so you're really just like thinking in terms of like two months ahead three months ahead maybe and like we actually just didn't have a talk and if you didn't have the founding then you were like what's still surviving sorry so if you didn't yeah we were like eating pasta a lot yeah just living in tents yeah living in town um no but i mean like let's real like the bull market help yeah um and there's been there's been like little you know uh there's little bounties like little stuff prices that we have along the way that uh helped uh not play for your laptop yeah eventually dude he broke my balls it was wrapped because my laptop wasn't it was terrible and then we were like doing zoom calls and stuff like that and like doing screen share and adam was like having to wait for it and it turned out it was rough um but yeah it turned out well like it was right i'm happy that we waited so long basically so we could raise like we raised it like a really really good valuation and we only have to give away very little amount of the token network equity or like now the future yeah no applicants it is too late so you guys gonna be building um do you have details is community [Music] [Applause]