PharmaLedger's Journey Towards a Trust Ecosystem

[Music] hello and welcome to everyone we're back with another very exciting family lecture panel and i can tell you that backstage that the panelists were having a good laugh so that's good i had to stop them so they could focus on the panel welcome to tenia dan marco and hernando good to see you all again at the european blogger convention i'm now going to give the word to our moderator kenya and enjoy the panel discussion thank you very much victoria so good afternoon and welcome to the pharmaceutical journey towards the digital trust ecosystem panel it is it is an our honor okay to be here and sharing this panel with you today we would like to welcome the audience to this session and thank you all for being here today also i would like to welcome our three great experts and panelists okay the first one is daniel fritz from he's the domain architect supply chain and external supply chain from novartis and project leader of pharma layer marco cuomo manager of applied technologies innovations from novartis okay and actually one of the technical managers of the platform for major platform and hernando girardo from digital lab innovation and scouting from behringer and last just to say i'm senia beltran head of big data and from life supporting technologies at the university of polytechnic in madrid and coordinator of the pharmaceutical project and i'll be the moderator of this session in the context of this panel we can say that although blockchain is a technology that overcomes some of the centralization and less privacy-enabled gaps the blockchain applications remain largely unexplored especially for sharing and exchanging information in the health domain so today we would like to share our experience in this context and to formalize the blockchain based approach and how we are moving from the blockchain based platform towards the creation of a health-enabled trusted ecosystem in healthcare so first then let's start with you um would you like to summarize and introduce a little bit further letters to the audience and also let us know how did you see from a ledger and how it can help to overcome the current paradigms okay and for the pharma and for the healthcare domain yeah sure thanks senior also thanks victoria for the kind introduction and uh thanks for this great opportunity to to talk about uh farmer ledger and what what we're doing so maybe i think we've had a couple pharma ledger panels but just a short overview of the project a few years ago we we discovered blockchain and we said wow this is really powerful potentially and and we would we want a way to to accelerate its adoption but we realized that trying to do this in our own company is not going to really bring much value marco likes to say that blockchain is a team sport so the first thing we did was to to bring together some like-minded industry partners and to kind of get a consensus around an idea and a project where we could innovate where we could develop some prototypes or some applications that are blockchain based and then use that as uh as proof of the value of blockchain versus some more traditional technologies so blockchain is a three-year project it started last year in january with a kickoff uh it is uh consists of 29 partners 12 of those are industry partners and 17 of those are public partners which include the university polytechnic at madrid and other universities hospitals some technical suppliers of patients organizations as well and the pharma ledger is under the innovative medicines initiative or imi imi is a joint undertaking between the european union and fpa the european federation of pharmaceutical industry and associations and this is a a multi-year program which is looking to yeah develop innovative approaches in in healthcare uh and um it turned out to be an excellent way for us to to come together as a consortium uh with a larger group of members and to pool the risk and to pool the resources and then also to benefit from public partners expertise and and the latest innovations with blockchain so the the ultimate goal is uh to implement a a platform that's underpinned by blockchain and it's demonstrated with different use cases and three domains those being supply chain healthcare health data sorry and clinical trials um in addition to that uh we are the technical aspects and everything we we want to prove the value as mentioned show that these approaches have benefits over existing approaches we also want to get the word out in terms of awareness education dissemination one of the reasons we're here today we we have a work package in the project focused on all of the regulatory legal and data privacy aspects that we have to consider and we also have a governance work package which is focused on what would happen uh not in the project governance but actually post project to ensure the sustainability and the impact of the of the the results of the deliverables um after the project ends which is going to be december next year actually in one year's time so um i mean that's uh pharma ledger in a nutshell um you know in terms of what we're we're really looking at is is is is problems that that one company can't solve on their own and so we believe in the power of collaboration we believe that all these problems can only be solved if we come together uh jointly in collaboration and address them with new capabilities that don't exist today but which um which have a lot of potential for the future so i hope that that gives everybody just kind of the background and the the basics um and i'll turn it back over to you xenia thanks son yes this is great and actually thanks for for the summary as dan commented okay yeah it's a big approach for collaboration from different stakeholders but not only on different stakeholders but also we go through different domains one of these is the supply chain the other one is clinical trials okay and the other one is health data so actually the idea is that all the partners collaborate and share okay in a trusted environment okay data on on on these areas so hernando would you like to give us a flavor of the patient focus on the side of the clinical trials and actually health data where we are focusing on the patients and and comment a little bit how is our experience and how we're developing and progressing and with the blockchain platform there yeah yeah thanks zenyatt so i i thought what i would do is just maybe spend a minute or two sharing with you from from the behringer side as a sponsor how we see the value of of this work with with imi and the blockchain consortium and i'll take you back to an example that we use within behringer and even externally when we talk to our other partners about how we want to kind of understand the patient journey so the patient journey today is going through an evolution much like the banking model and if you know for those of you who are you know who have a bank account or understand banking if you look at the banking model from about 20 years ago it's very similar to what our journey or patient journey is when we talk about clinical trials which is what we do and so back then 20 30 years ago when you wanted to work with a bank you did you did banking on their hours even though they had your money they told you when they were going to do banking when they were going to be open what time of the day how they wanted to bank with you how they wanted to interact with you how they wanted to engage with you and you know in clinical trials and pharma for us it's kind of the same for the last 30 years it's been we sort of dictate or sort of push the rules down based on the regulatory of each country how we're going to conduct trials well the banking model's changed i don't know the last time i actually stepped into an institution actually walked into a brick and mortar and had to do anything there the banking model has evolved in the last 20 30 years to really everything on these devices right and so for us post covid as we come out of this covered world that model resonates because now our patient journey and the importance of this work is now really forefront and what i mean by that is we can no longer tell patients how we're going to do it we're now more patient-centered we want to learn what they want to hear what they want to see out of trials and when we look around the landscape and try to figure out where there's innovation this blockchain work that's being done by imi and farmer ledger is one of those pieces so a lot of the work that we're doing here is very innovative and it's very leading edge so we're able to take some of these use cases and ideas and bring them forward and kind of mold the way we do trials and help shape that conversation more towards the patient are we at the banking model where it's all phone no but i think that's the direction we're heading and farmer ledge is helping us that the the consent use case which we're part of is actually shaped in that in that vein right we're looking to bring um capabilities and some of the the features that we have now on phone but also the ability to understand what the customers want and how they want it and so for us this is an incredible opportunity to take part in this so i share that with you because it's really for us a driving force behind why we're part of the farmer ledger and what we see coming out now and in the future as we go forward i'll turn it back over to you so thank you thank you hernando actually yes from in far malaysia we're taking this patient-centric approach uh as part of of the domains that we are approaching in as such as a way to establish this kind of partnership among practitioners because we have hospitals the patients their patients organization representing them to really align decisions okay with the farmers and actually all the processing the clinical trials okay regarding also and taking in account their wants their needs their preferences okay but the ecosystem is is is is more than the farmer than than than the and then than the hospitals and and and the and and patients we are trying to get a really big ecosystem and in in this way we we want to define which is the a digital base as hernandez said trusted ecosystem so for this uh marco would you like to to to comment on our approach in how we are moving the pharmaceutical platform to to get and reach this digital trusted ecosystem having all these stakeholders involved yeah sure thanks uh xenia for this question so um when we started a few years ago with with the whole blockchain so we had always the idea we want to build something an infrastructure for the healthcare industry but what we do in fact is there is a digital ecosystem which which we try to let's say to foster and to build with the backbone of of a blockchain based platform to to bring in let's say the trust or the trustless environment so when we talk about the ideas we have with this digital ecosystem we we say we want to have a decentralized system we want to have everyone is equal in that system everyone can participate you also often hear we want that the patient is back in control of their data or govern companies are in control of their data so we want to change a lot of these things we can see out today which is a lot of things are centralized or siloed so we won't break that up so blockchain is is one of these technology which help to build that to build the decentralized environment the decentralized ecosystem but the blockchain is only the technology you need also a decentralized governance around the decision how you do decision in a decentralized way how you involve patients how you involve companies how involved universities how can they be equal or somehow equal how can you motivate people or incentive people to do something why should the patient share the data so that other company can benefit maybe because they're interested in the research but maybe they get also incentive in one or the other way so with the blockchain as a technology we have a very interesting technology doing that think about the nfts the non-fungible tokens or crypto or token economy and all these kind of things but when you hear that it sounds so easy yeah you you do an nft and you can sell them and something like that or you have governance token where you can govern something but but how you build that and this is exactly the process we are in so we know the technology we learned about the technology the last two years now we come to the point to say how can we now really foster and make this sustainable um in the future and the key here is the governance and um there's different ideas about it you may heard about dao's decentralized autonomous organization they seem to fit very nicely or they ideally to build with with the blockchain technology so we we we are now thinking around this process to build a kind of an ecosystem which is maybe self-sustainable so that you have tokens or incentive models or governance tokens to to to drive the whole thing but it's a process and we have to learn that and to figure out what is the right thing to to make this digital ecosystem something which is um sustainable over the next five ten or even long or twenty years and this is the challenge i think we're looking right now back to you uh xenia i don't want to eat up too much with that no no you are it was great so thank you marco and and and we're just in in the process and time so i'm actually taking off from your work in case then and building this ecosystem and and looking that this is part of the sustainability that we want to create for formal age um you as as farmers and also maybe fernando from the patient also focus point of view uh how do you see um from your perspective um the not only the motivations but also the future of our malaysia in in in your own companies or areas that that you can share this or the experience that you can send for for this sure so so number one i think it's it's transformative right in the sense that um you know i work for a company um that sometimes is a laggard in some things but um you wouldn't you wouldn't think that now right so in the last three years we have really kind of turned the tail a little bit and said look we see that innovation technology really can become a competitive advantage for us so that we're part of pharma ledger that were part of a use case that we're taking all these lessons learned that we're able to bring them back to behringer and share those with our colleagues is a fantastic opportunity for us because we're able to share some empirical evidence right so look at what the research says and look what we're doing that to us is one of the the unintended consequences of this right we wanted to be involved because of the research aspect and we we believe that blockchain has value to us we simply didn't understand how much so now we're seeing that in addition to that we're also now seeing that um we we got it at the right time right so it wasn't too early too late we're right at the point where on the s curve of developments we think that this is something that we need to keep an eye on and be more involved in so for us it's transformative it's informative right and for us it's really giving us sort of moving the bar a little bit so as we as a pharma company look at the new ways of doing business whether it's an innovation process patron centricity what have you farmer ledger and the work we're doing here is moving the bar for us further and further down the line which is great right the goals just keep the goal posts right just keep moving on us i think that for us has been really the nice the nice blessing if you will from the work that we've been doing thank you dad marco wow i let it down go ahead then oh i i mean i just you know to build on hernando's comments you know um from uh uh from the goals objectives you know uh in our company we we're we have you know kind of five goals which is around operational excellence um data and digital innovation um giving more back to society and also on changing the culture and i think uh you know across the board all of these uh objectives uh big objectives can be supported uh through uh the blockchain journey so i mean from a culture perspective really you're you're looking at more external engagement more more collaboration uh more decentralized so now no single source of you know authority in in the picture um operational excellence we talk about blockchain um removing the friction with transactions or even eliminating a lot of the complexity that we have of course this is about data and innovation um that's the core of the of the whole solution and um and so you know really across the board it is um in line with the strategy that we we have and and can contribute to to all of our main objectives if i could add one more thing i think that we've talked about this at the farmer ledger and i think we talk about it also very but a lot of the work that we do unbeknownst to many is pretty competitive right so in this space of ours when we talk about sponsors of pharma we all do the same thing our competitive advantage is our compounds our drugs right the actual the chemicals involved in our the drugs these life-saving drugs that we bring to market and so the work that we do here is pre-competitive which means you're throwing in the power of 16 17 19 very powerful right companies together to solve some solutions that are pretty competitive that affect us all that has been an incredible opportunity as well right to join in that to be able to take the lessons learned from 17 other partners i i think i think um in honor to build building that it's it's we changed the way how or let's say we have the potential how the healthcare industry in the future is collaborating you could see with the pandemic already there is more collaboration and things are much faster on the market which helps a lot but i think with the blockchain we have also a technology or ideas how can that be in the future so this pre-competitive stuff can be more collaborative and we we have here the tools to bring that to foster that and then you see what is going on with everyone heard about the metaverse or the nfts or the web 3 and all these kind of things and a couple of things in the gaming industry start to test out how can we use nfts in a game um how is that working in the business world and and we have to figure out how how can we bring that all together in the healthcare world and i think blockchain is in a lot of these things kind of a base technology it's not the only thing by far not but it is the part where you can say how can i preserve my assets um across the different industries across the different worlds and then um echoes ecosystems but i think in that mid and long term view we changed the way how we work together or how we in the healthcare industry and and i think that is fantastic to see where it goes exactly i think no one knows or maybe some people have some visions and ideas but it i think and we are part of it that i think farmer lecturer and the blockchain thing is is part of that journey and that makes it very exciting for all of us yes you're right i i think it is it's great okay because it's a completely different vision okay so so actually taking your words uh marco and and and hernandez i mean um for the future it's a different way of of collaboration because as hernandez says like big companies that also compete in the market okay but it's nice to see that sharing a big infrastructure okay and you are also um have a new way to share data and it's it's kind of like a very collaborative approach okay that also is is taking the basis of of of the future as such so in in in this in this uh contest okay how do you see okay that uh i mean how do you see the the farmers okay will be getting closer not only to each other but also to the patients and and actually in in this ecosystem as such marco for example um i mean do we have like uh uh really like or new technologies or or is something special informal agent or in the technologies that i'm coming from malaysia that really is helping to to reach this or or do you see it as a very big approach that is only blockchain supporting this yeah you you give me something which i very much like i think in pharmacy we always tried to to do something which is a technology agnostic so we don't want to to bet on one blockchain technology or on one network so we said we have we have to be open there and we also said um as a philosophy we do not store data direct on the blockchain for several reasons i mean gdpr is a word but also dependency on on a specific technology so we we came up or we based on another project which we then evolved in pharma lecture we call that open dsu that what we call data sharing unit and it's really about the idea how to share data in a decentralized world but still preserving um confidentiality and data privacy because when you think about the bitcoin the most famous blockchain everything is transparent there but maybe you don't want that your health records are so transparent so we we have a technology um are we not the only one there are a lot of other with this similar idea but i think we we build something very lean and and really to the point generic it can be also used outside pharmaledge and other industries so it's not only limited to um to the farm industry so therefore with this technology we allow in in um we allow let's say in the farm industry or in in farmer lecture that all these different use cases can collaborate together or are interop interoperable and can be leveraged so the developers have not to focus on the blockchain technology they can focus on on the solution so this is something i think where we are very proud of and which helps us in the future yeah can i i mean to add on that in terms of the engaging and empowering the patients you know one of our our use cases is uh called electronic product information or or e-leaflet um which is basically putting the the package insert into a digital form which is accessible through a scan of the medicine pack and this is uh designed to provide the latest approved information to the patients um in a way that may be easy to navigate and to to find and um and also give them the information you know that that's really relevant for them and i pharmaledge is not the only project that's focused on it there's another one another imi project as well but this is uh this is just a start actually the this electronic product information could could serve as basically a platform or a foundation for many other added innovations such as notifications of product information updates it could provide maybe some adherence information it could enable or facilitate adverse event reporting we could implement anti-counterfeiting capabilities into that as well drug interaction information drug disposal information so so there's there's really no limit to this and um and then as i think like as marco said i mean if if eventually people are able to store the the specific batch of the medicine that they took to their electronic health record and that information and their their in you know their identity is not identified anywhere privacy is preserved that's really about giving some value to the patient in the future thank you that thank you and marco also uh then uh know that i mean linking your your your answer and and and your comments okay um it's true that we we have a very very big focus in in the patient and and getting this empowerment the patient a patient and getting uh privacy enabled um schemas for sharing the data but uh let's not forget also a little bit that we're in this we cover this big um and value chain okay also for for the farmers companies that go upstream downstream also can you comment a little bit also how this the future and how this impacting okay in the area of your area which is also supply chain okay because we we we also have all these pressures as companies okay and where companies have all this pleasure for improving also this part of productivity developments and actually saving in time and costs right i mean i think one of the the key arguments that we've always had is that you know the current environment is very fragmented there's a lot of different systems and between uh different organizations there are silos data silos system silos culture silos there can be even b cycles within one organization a big a big company can have different silos and and what we what we envision also from a supply chain perspective is basically kind of an end-to-end uh single source of truth a common trusted um uh backbone um that is that everybody can access and use to confidentiality access or share the data that they are um that they need that there's transparent transparency there's visibility and that that's basically happens in in the kind of a real real-time uh way from from the end in the end-to-end process all the way from the original sourcing of raw materials through to the dispensing and the usage by the patient so that's kind of the how we envision it from a supply chain perspective where maybe it's not a b2c or you know customer but a b2b kind of a set up a business to business setup great thank you very much uh yes actually this the the the fragmentation and stylus of information is is actually i think it's something that it can be extrapolated not only to to that area but also to the health care and action in the health data and i guess to do all the domains okay uh somehow we have a couple of of questions from the audience okay that we would like to to approach so the the first one is like uh they would like to know also your perspective and mission regarding the digital divide that might cause i guess the blockchain or the pharma legit blockchain approach okay in in in this in in in digitalization so actually the question is like uh formulator thinking about the digital divide when he's thinking of digital health of glo or at the global level let me let me i'll take a little stab at that i don't think i'll be able to answer fully because that that's a pretty big divide right now but i'll share this with you i think the dan's point there's a lot that we do know and there's a lot that's progressing quite nicely and there's things that are happening faster than even i would have thought but there's also things that we don't know yet and what our work is is kind of putting a light on is those things that don't yet have a great solution and maybe this is one of the ways we can do that i'll share with you an example i'm i'm an old school guy i'm a historian i grew up in the days of this thing called the internet coming around and and marco can appreciate this right without dns servers our world and our internet usage would be very very different and so for me sometimes when we talk about the impact that this thing called blockchain right or crypto if you will has on us it's starting to shape out right so we may not be delivering front-facing solutions with everything around blockchain and crypto but you're talking about things that are revolutionizing models right now that have been laggards so we're learning that there are chances and there's opportunities just like there was with the dns servers that launched the browser wars blockchain is that has that potential where it's going to spur new ideas and new innovations that could impact things that we don't even know about yet and we haven't even started tackling yet the pharma ledger work is nine use cases i mean i work in an industry that's just froth with processes right and we can only begin to understand what this work is going to do to some of those from a transparency from trust from the immutability aspect of it right where we're governed business so what's better than having trust and immutability in your work so i think that's going to be something very interesting and i think being part of the the consortium is is like i like to say helping us shape that conversation and shape the future so hopefully we'll be able to maybe narrow that divide a little bit i don't know if that's the answer i'm looking for but that's that's the one i can give you maybe i can i can just i mean just add a little bit you know the the uh i mean the approach i think we're thinking is that um you know the the innovations that we're creating are not uh going to in any time in the near future uh replace uh existing systems and processes uh that that are there so that is uh it's something which is you know seen as maybe complementary to the current um way of working and and the way people get their healthcare but um and and and and as hernando said i mean we don't know all the answers we don't we don't know all the questions even uh yet but um we are also i mean so but i think one of the benefits that we have with with blockchain we're talking about an ecosystem we're talking about involving all the parties in an exclusive manner not in an exclusive manner there's not one uh group here that's mandating this is the way it's going to work if it's properly defined and if it's properly designed and implemented then the blockchain solution has a benefit for all involved um so for all parties everybody should get some some value from it so um i think uh we're very fortunate in farmer ledger to have you know two two different patient organizations um as part of the the consortium and who are engaged on the different use cases and providing a lot of different feedback on on on the patient perspective and by the way we're all patients right so that's that's also helpful so i agree marco do you want to comment something no i think um we we heard all maybe or maybe one little thing i think i think this digital divide is a topic but we have to divide it in two parts one is the the blockchain which is we are looking for the benefit for the companies or the organizations which then in indirectly helps the patient whether this is um need whether this is a better product or the product is quicker and at the place where where he or she needs it and then of course it's the the end user the patient who is using it and there yes there is maybe something uh which can drive this digital divide or hopefully we can close it a little bit more and there's maybe also then solutions we have to think for people who have not access to to the let's say the internet or other digital elements which you need yeah but but i'm an i.t guy so i'm i i for me there is yeah hard to believe that people i mean i know there are people that have no access and i know there are limitations but yeah yeah something we have to think i'm um for sure maybe not the right guy to have here the solution no but for sure i think we we all shall agree and i think there's something very important commented by dan and and by by hernando and i think that the fact that they they in far malaysia okay we're creating this additional transparency as as as fernando said but not only transparency but also accountability means that the rules are clear for all the players and stakeholders in the digital trust i think it's quite a big advance to to manage at least a little bit more efficiently let's say that way um this kind of uh digital device so it should try to advance and reduce it as much as we can as such so i'll go with the next question also um in the next question what we have is that um i think the question is for you marco because it says where do you store the off-chain data how do you implement data access in terms of authentication and authorization and what's the process of guaranteeing the integrity of the dsus that is distributed among many databases so it's quite a long question but three two it's a lot of so um i have a tendency to say i think that needs a separate meeting to do that um the open dsu is a framework which solves all these problems um whether we started the off chain data depends on the use cases and the epi for example each pharma company is storing their own data so they are still in control of the data but they give access to everyone we encrypt all the data so you need the key to read it so and this is also guaranteeing the integrity um authentication and authorization uh of course depends on the use case we we we work here with different um tools around that so this it's all about um we have to term here key ssi so i am identifiers with where you have your private and public key stuff so so there is a whole package to open dsu framework is solving all all these things if if there is more interest i'm i'm more than happy to get in contact with you and and walk you through um the technology and what we're using in informal lecture but but i think i i would need an hour i know dan would love to listen to that and hernando would be even excited to do it thank you very much we don't have more questions from the audience right now okay but we still have uh really at about uh i think uh four minutes okay for for for them can i add something to marco's comments because it's really relevant and important so one of the things that became an aha moment for us as you know so in european theater you have gdpr right gdpr is incredibly important and we know that and no one's showing the fact that it's important but one of the things that became very apparent to us is you you with with the work that we're doing patients get a chance to get all the benefits the immutability the trust the transparency but at the same time because of these open dsu's that marco's constructed you have the ability also of patients to be forgotten right and that to us became such a blocker years ago when we started looking at this now a patient or a solution can take patient data and if a patient says in with respect to our clinical trials if he or she says look i don't want to be par involvement anymore we have a way now to forget them to honor the you know the gdpr and say look you know on blockchain you've got all the trusts and security but at the same time when you say thanks but no thanks we got a solution for you now that's gdpr compliant which is fantastic that to us is huge right it opens up the door to a lot of work that we love to be able to explore it's one reason why not to store data on the blockchain directly yeah okay thanks a man that will advance a little bit today to the wrapping question that that that i was going to to ask you all because um actually um since we have this four minutes uh and no questions and actually i would like uh each of you to provide to say what is the the one of the most important maybe key points okay that that that you have experienced your information in in the areas where you work okay i know you are working with all these areas of the patient so um maybe um let's start with that so actually let me give a space a little bit to hernando to go to the patients and again since he answered okay so so i'll start um i think so we we had the technology question and and that's a key component i mean really um of the solution we're we're talking about blockchain here uh but i think you know what really becomes uh for me the the biggest success and the biggest you know thing of promise for the future is is the collaboration that we get um with the the like-minded partners within the farm ledger i mean so so you know everybody is is really uh working together as a team and and this is great but we also see um a lot of external interest in this we have a number of um other manufacturers and and also some service providers now that are um engaged with the project um you know not as members of the consortium but um engaged on the specific testing or the piloting uh of things like this and uh and it's a it's it's it's for me it's just great to see the power of the collaboration what's what's possible when people are are focused on solving the same problem and i this is this also extends um to um other uh organizations i mean just like the european blockchain convention you know when we um decided to partner with ebc we saw it was really we had the same goals we had the same intentions you know to get to make people aware about what the possibilities are to educate them and to get their interest and support for these types of initiatives whether it's farmer ledger or other ones um in in healthcare or in other industries okay um marco uh for you but uh for you also i guess there is a couple of questions or also that has just came that it is the dsu um and already open publish standard and it's um if there are resources of the issue that can be shared so i guess i do answer a little bit with you yeah there it's it's um um i said on opendsu.com you find information but it's more for developers if you really i think you need a kind of a walkthrough about the concepts because it it's it's a different approach the blockchain and the thing is is is coming with some a bit different approach so it's good to understand the the concept so i'm more than happy um um to to give a quick walk through to it but you can start with opendsu.com looking into it um yeah it's it's more for developers thought so it's it's it's didn't you do an ebc technical school session yeah we did that um yeah we did that um a couple of weeks ago there was a was a was a kind of a training for that that is true there's maybe a record there's a recording out for that yeah good you remember things better than i got my second brain or my main brain we'll be closing now but just just victoria um and i'm sorry hernando i mean would you like to to have a license last message to to to the audience yeah i think um i i echo dance sentiments the the ability and the power of all the pharma companies sponsors working together is incredible and then for us one of the things that we've gotten out of this is when we go back home we don't talk about blockchain anymore we talk about the value of this technology so we talked to business people about what this could be it's no longer you know you talk about blockchain they roll their eyes and they think we're talking crypto we're not we're talking about business value and that to us has been huge because we're now opening the door that once was closed because they thought it was some crypto or technology that they didn't understand so for us it's been a game changer also great well thank you very much and actually to the audience and we also would like to to to thank you very much as part of our malaysia uh i agree with with the comment of of of my questions it's been great to participate in in a project where where we all different coming from different organizations are sharing okay um and not only to develop a platform a technical platform as marco said but to create an ecosystem because we think we're reshaping not only the future of sharing data but also okay reshaping um how the organizational cultures are going to get to really adopt okay this kind of approach so we would like to thank again okay the ebc and the european blockchain convention for the opportunity of presenting pharma ledger and our experience here with you big thanks to the panelists sharing your experience okay and expertise with us also thanks to the audience for having joiners today and last but not least on behalf of the pharmaceutical consultant we would like to wish you the best for this coming year 2022 and we hope everything is great so and thanks victoria thank you tenya thank you daniel dan marco and hernando and true you did re recently i think a month ago or three weeks ago you did get a lecture um at the european tech school so we have a video there and this is actually for yeah for our students but we will make sure to to make it available for for our whole community so i think this will be very useful it's was it one and a half hours of lecture marco more or less yeah even more than less okay so yeah so so it was a very good lecture so we will make sure that that all of you get get access to it so yeah thank you very much to farmer letter to the four of you i mean it's it's great to be working with you for the last two years and i look forward to to next year hopefully hopefully we will see each other face to face we said the same in the last edition and here we are online so let's see if we can meet barcelona next time i hope thank you so much thank you thank you very much thanks all right