What's Next After the FTX Crash? | European Blockchain Convention 2023

foreign once again to Barcelona we're gonna start with what's next after the FDX crash and Michael I would like to start with you you can present yourself and then we move to Robert and yeah please just introduce you yeah sure so I presenting myself I'm Michael Jackson I'm a director of fabric Ventures we're one of the old guys in the Venture scene in crypto myself this is I met your own from monarium earlier today 10 years ago we were on stage in a conference in London probably one of the first on bitcoin so this is kind of there are about as many people there as well so so that's kind of interesting how things develop my own background is I've had 10 years in Venture and before that I was running Skype which is a big distributed Network essentially based on the same technology of a lot of the crypto world so that's what really was my natural lead into this space thanks thanks yeah James Ryan I'm the head of marketing at Gamma X which is a soon to launch decentralized exchange um I've been in in the crypto space sort of in well it's about 2017 um I was the head of marketing at bereave shortly after it launched and um worked on a couple of other crypto projects in between and now again accents um June and prior to that I was a journalist in the technology space hey everybody Kevin Marco founder and CEO at coin Metro we're a centralized exchange based out of Estonia my background is an fx so I worked in FX for 20 some odd years did everything from losing money to prop trading to trading on a desk to figure out how to trade make some money you know I went through the whole gamut and got into crypto personally around 2009 and then professionally 2017. hi everyone my name is Robert lay I'm a crypto research analyst at Facebook um I do research most of the time I spent Facebook doing fintech research and recently we launched a crypto research team dedicated to this space perfect thanks a lot Michael you get the first question uh the narrative says that the FTX collapse could have been prevented with motor more regulations what's your take about that no no this wasn't a regulatory collapse this was a total collapse of company management internal governance whatever excesses we've all read the excess story you just don't do that in large real companies it's quite simple even if you have regulation you're going to have Bad actors they can be offshore just as FCX was it really wouldn't have made any difference at all so the cry for regulation is is real it's open and we're fortunately in Europe you shouldn't read too much about what's coming across in the US we're maybe going to speak about that later but Europe's got a pretty good structure coming along the way and we can talk a little bit about that but no FTX would not have been prevented by regulation is there anybody who thinks something different than yeah I guess I I would say it would have um I I think the thing is SPF was able to sell as FTX to as investors and to his customers that it was a legitimate exchange but it had to Offshore because the rules and regulations haven't caught up yet and so I think that that was one of the key components of if the rules regulations allowed for sdx to operate whether in the U.S or in any other jurisdiction SPF would have to operate in that jurisdiction but because there weren't rules and regulations he was able to hide behind that yeah I I'd probably Echo Mike a little bit here just to say that I mean in the FX realm uh the Bahamas is actually one of the most stringent offshore Regulators when it comes to Foreign Exchange in fact it's probably on par with most of mythid mifid 2 Etc it's not the same but it's very similar the problem with regulation is it's not 24 7. I mean there's oversight but oversight is not three 24 7 365. and you know if there's people that work for Regulators that get paid really shitty salaries uh to to look and try to find problems and then there's really smart people that get paid really big salaries at companies that will absolutely create problems and so you know the system just like the judicial system is kind of out of whack because obviously if you can hire a you know 10 million dollar lawyer and you can outbid the state well you can win your case it's kind of the same thing at the end of the day no matter what uh you know companies do or what what the regulator does there's always going to be somebody to step ahead of the regulator and so we've seen massive fraud we saw MF Global John Corazon back in the day with future as we've seen burnout everybody knows Bernie Madoff yeah yeah and and to be honest those weren't stopped by regulation and the thing is is that well this wouldn't have been stopped either would it have been lessened maybe would there have been 175 companies with you know I don't know how many billions worth of uh you know bankruptcy maybe would have been less but it wouldn't have been stopped impossible to be honest I mean fraud exists because humans are corrupt and we're going to be corrupt whether there's regulation or not yeah I agree there have been bad actors in traditional Finance traditional Venture Capital we got the Thanos you know situation um regulation wouldn't have solved that if you've got people that are trying to defrive their customers and their investors um and and The Regulators can never quite keep up with with as you said the the lawyers in the intelligent fraudsters out there um so you know people have to be worried they'll continue to need to be wary in the crypto space but yeah uh over regulation certainly isn't the answer you know we all know that regulation moves slower than Innovation everybody knows that saying right uh and and at the same time if you've ever run a business you know that criminals outpace whatever you do to stop them if you have a business that sells Shoes online there's people using fake credit cards all the time every time you do something to stop them they do something else you know at the end of that you can try you can lessen but you're not going to stop it that's just you know human nature unfortunately thanks a couple of you guys mentioned offshoring uh what do you think is the impact of companies of Shoring I mean I I is I'm not exactly sure what the impact is it's it's sort of inevitable at this point you know if the U.

S is going to have um you know the firmest regulatory um framework or structure people are going to seek um less regulation in regulation in and of itself isn't bad but but I think um customers are and you know rightly or wrongly customers want less friction um particularly say with with exchanges and so the company's creating the exchanges are going to move to where they can set up an exchange with less friction and that's typically going to be offshore at this point I think as more regulation or as less regulation appears overseas and and the U.S maybe start seeing that it's missing out on the market you know they may pull back on that to be competitive yeah uh you know at the end of the day running an exchange running any type of regulated business you know I want to be regulated but I also want to have a business and and the problem is is that obviously you have everybody everybody kind of shits on the regulator which you know it's easy to do I do it too we all talk bad about the regular but in reality you got the legislator first right I mean the legislator makes the legislation which they don't read usually and then they vote on and it becomes law and then the regulator is supposed to take that law interpret it and apply it to business and the problem is is because there's that separation which there has to be because of conflict of interest Etc but that creates a system where the person applying the law and interpreting the law wasn't involved obviously in creating the law and so then you have Market players like us who try to take make our own interpretation to try and actually we need to make money right and so if there's another jurisdiction where we can make money and you know for me it is important that we do the right thing that the customers you know make money we're not we're not trying to go against the customer don't trade against clients all that stuff is important but most kind of Provisions that are put into law whether it's in the U.S whether it's in the EU to try and stop uh let's say companies from doing bad against their clients actually some in many times actually create more risk for the end user uh and so if I have to go offshore to protect my client I'm going to go offshore I mean it's just as simple as that and and you know the U.S kind of interpret the way the U.S does this is usually you know they create a legislation they wait for judicial precedence so some judge is going to come out and and make some type you know say this is this this was wrong or this was done incorrectly and then they apply it that way and the problem with that is we've assume that the SEC recently right it's kind of like yeah come and come in tell us what you're doing and then we'll say yeah we don't we don't regulate that right now and then go do it and then we'll sue you three years later uh and then Twitter is going to hate us I mean that's essentially the the life cycle of you know and that doesn't work it's never worked it hasn't worked to stop fraud it hasn't worked to to create a better environment for clients it hasn't worked to create a better environment for business but you know I guess if it's broken don't fix it I guess that's kind of how the the regulatory Cycle Works to be honest I might put a little sort of VC or financing angle on this this is venture capital in this space becomes more more normal if you like and the people investing in the funds become to be the Pension funds and these kind of people that we've relied on to stimulate Innovation for years now these guys won't permit us to invest in companies that are in Shady jurisdictions you can call it that they want us to be you know there as state actors for example the European funds the European government funds who give us money won't allow us to use European taxpayers money in you know some weird Pacific island or something like that and that's going to be forcing the the better companies the more reputable companies the people developing really for the future rather than for Arbitrage probably to be becoming onshore just because of that not because of Regulation it's a good point actually when we speak about kind of risk when it comes to a regulated Enterprise there's there's regulatory risk so we're regulating in the EU we have regulation in the U.

S Canada et cetera lots of different countries and there's always regulatory risk but the bigger risk of the company is actually not the regulator it's the banks it's all your counterparties Etc that have probably more stringent rules that are applied to them than we have applied to us and so in in reality we be you get Regulators you can make sure you can continue to operate but then when you get regulated you get kind of closed inside this really small fence and you're forced to operate in a certain way that doesn't make that that leaves you less competitive than your non-regulated counterparties right so you know you can everybody knows the biggest Exchange in the world that's not regulated I'm not going to say the name you all know who it is right so to compete with a company like that that can pretty much do whatever they want right there's no there's no oversight on that on that business from any any regulator across the world and then you're boxed into this little box and you have to compete and the problem with that is is that while the regulator may think that reduces risk you know around the entire let's say crypto sphere it doesn't because you're leaving the biggest company in the world and you're allowing them to do whatever they want but all these smaller entities have to follow rules and that becomes an issue absolutely but but it's a good point because whether you want to be regulated or not at some point you can't operate you can't have you know you can't have Fiat on an off-ramps you're not going to be able to cooperate with banks you're not going to be able to cooperate with or get funding from you know Sovereign wealth or you know you have no choice but it boxes you in you know and that's that that's an issue and that's an issue for just innovation in general or expansion of the business or Etc yeah unfortunately we're seeing this happen in the US right now right we saw the beginning of the year when the FED at the IC and OCC came out with a joint statement telling banks that it's very risky to work with crypto startups and then you see all the enforcement action that's happened over the last month um we see that in the U.S a lot of the federal Regulators are taking steps to cut off crypto from the banking system and then what happens is it's going to continue to push crypto companies offshore and you see pressure on the banks as well everybody sees the news about silvergate right yeah where they're now being sued and and they're being intertwined in something that they probably had no direct influence on they were simply a counterparty but because they're more highly regulated you know nobody's going to sue the unregulated counterparty because we're going to assume where are you going what jurisdiction Etc how are you going to win who do you actually complain to so they go after the regulated entities yeah it's a vicious circle really do you guys think that we touched the bottom where do we stand yeah I think I think this wasn't this most recent bottom was not the bottom right we hit lower bottoms you know say back in 2010 right so this is just just another bottom but it's it's it's really nowhere we can't refer it as a rock bottom right and and I think it was a the most recent crisis um you know combined with the crypto winner I think has been a real test of the system and a lot of people were expecting or predicting a complete collapse um and complete loss of Faith but I think what it's shown people is okay we've we've weathered a number of like very serious crises just like the mortgage industry did or or the uh you know uh you know the industries that that Madoff what was involved in and and that we weathered these crisis and there's still faith in the system that you know we're here today to talk about it so um it we did hit another bottom that I think we're moving moving up from but I think it's it was never the rock bottom right right so which again is a real um indication of faith in the system how do you think we can rebuild that trust how can how do you think we can rebuild the trust I mean I think you know some of the stuff we've talked about like you know uh like you know a fair amount of Regulation I think it was particularly if we want to bring in um more traditional Investments the um the insurance companies the Pension funds they're going to be looking for you know some adults in the room so I think um and we're starting to see that and I think it's it's a necessary part of growth and development so I think that'll be a big piece of it yeah I think there's going to be more disclosures that are going to be coming from any of these crypto companies financial disclosures risk disclosures I mean even you look at you know Celsius and block five if you looked at that website when they were advertising their products they look like basic products high yield you get a debit card like you couldn't tell if it was a bank or not and like that kind of stuff the false misleading stuff and not knowing where your money is going not disclosing that risk this is something that would need to come to this industry for consumers to come back and start trusting crypto companies and anybody ever read like The the terms and terms of service when you sign up for a new Apple product you ever read that 47 pages when you when you download an app I haven't uh and you know I think disclaimers are disclaimers work to a certain extent because it's a you know it's a legal back door you're like well we told you you might get wrecked right so you got wrecked so sorry but you know you signed the agreement I I think at the end of that you know trust trust is a is a weird thing in crypto because at the end of the day if you read the Bitcoin white paper it was supposed to instill trust based on removing the human element from the equation that was how trust was going to be built and if you look how traditional Finance has always built trust it's the human element literally counter the county party system was created so that you had a third party to to basically ver bring trust into whatever you know transaction you were doing probably everybody in the room could probably say that that doesn't work because it doesn't because if you have a counter party or three counterparties or five counter parties and one of them happens to be you know corrupt or breaks the chain well then at the end of the day you have an issue and so the whole the whole premise here was that we were supposed to have this great technology that at the end of the day was going to remove the human element and that's going to bring in trust and then we created centralized exchanges you're welcome um and and that obviously brings in counterparty Risk just like traditional Finance brings in counterparty Risk but no matter how much we want to say that you know normal people are going to use decentralized Services I got to tell you user experience on decentralized services for the most part [ __ ] sucks right and that's why the centralized counterparties are always going to exist now how do you bring back and Trust when one of those major counterparties just explodes right how do you do that how did we do it when Madoff collapsed how did we do it when you know John Corazon stole 10 billion dollars and didn't go to jail uh you know it it's it's it's it's about creating an ecosystem regulation is part of it regulation is kind of just a stamp of approval it's kind of like your buddy saying buy Dodge Coin it's cool that's that's what regulation does and you're like well my buddy says it's cool so it should be all right but after that you need you need you need people that are going to act a certain way you need to there needs to be like self-regulation if you think about the best regulation in the world I would come back to say that it's always been some form of self-regulation and the problem is in crypto we don't do self-regulation the only time you see a self-regulating body is one is when a company needs to get a get a license coinbase went and created a institution in you know the UK when they wanted a UK license they had like four members they never did anything because they just put their name out there so it looked good on their application it was done but we haven't seen any real self-regulating bodies in crypto we need self-regulating bodies we need smart people in the industry we don't need Outsiders to tell us how to operate a business that'll never operate the business and and I think that's probably the the next generation of Trust on top of that hybrid at the end of the day again decentralized services will not be used by the mass populace we can we can debate that for hours but I I 99 59.9 sure you will not see the mass populace at any point 10 15 years down the line using completely decentralized Services there's a regulation element to that there's uh there's a usability element to that there's a speed and latency element to that you know you're never going to have a decentralized service that's faster than a centralized service it's impossible it literally isn't possible so there's many elements that to that to that puzzle that you're always going to have some type of you know centralized service so those Services need to go hybrid what does that mean you take the best of decentralized services like decentralized settlement so I can settle with you or you or you I don't need a counterparty I need to deposit with coin Metro or with coinbase or with finance and I can trade on a centralized order book which is faster more transparent Etc that's probably where we're going and I think that's where we kind of start to instill trust because it's telling you look use our services we don't want you money and if you look at the collapse FTX what's the biggest flaw well people gave them the money and they you know gambled it away and so that's you know I think that's the next kind of Step the Paradigm that we'll see over the next one to two years you talk about trust I mean most businesses we deal with whether it's a coffee shop or whatever around the place you you trust in them not because particularly there's a regulator totally all over them but because there's a set of rules that have been placed by law and by custom about how you run businesses just how you do things how you do things from day to day and and your business processes and controls and management team and things like that you evaluate them an awful lot when these businesses are going on and if you don't comply with the base rules of society which a lot of them are really simple you get fined or you go to prison and you'll get your business closed and stuff like that if I send my business accounts in late I'll get a demand from the from the let's call it the system they'll want it within a month if I don't do it within a month they'll take away my business license and that's it and this kind of stuff is is is going to come into this space it has to come into this place it's basically there for anybody running like the real companies it's just all these wacky things that sprung up that that's broken on it and to your point I think I think it's extremely relevant what you say about D5 we're all really really into all of this stuff 4.4 million users in default right I mean it's it's a number but it's not many in the global scale so how do we get trust back we get out of the media with some of this big high profile cases that the media is interested in okay 4.4 million people are a bit upset about some stuff 1.

7 million people in Celsius I mean it's it's it's not a massive number it's not an unrecoverable number you know when we've got four trillion people on the planet four trillion people that's big isn't it four billion people on the planet so I mean you know we've got a huge Market out there looking at exchanges of one thing but other decentral other uses of decentralized technology for identity for gaming for all sorts of other stuff that we haven't even thought about yet um that's going to come along and be using this technology that we're building for so you know so that's how we get some of the trust back I think thanks do you think is it part of economic bubble and can we make any historical comparison yeah I mean is it part of a I don't know it's a part of a bubble obviously this bubble was fueled by a massive injection of free cash that a lot of people got many of us got like Corona bonuses and weren't spending as much money so I had a little bit of cash to play with I think that was part of it they talk about the Us and other countries that gave people that really gave them free money that they didn't basically need and part of it was to stimulate the economy but this did stimulate the economy a lot of it simulated the crypto economy which which For Better or Worse is is um is is what happened with it so so that's a bubble caused by that and then of course you've got the traditional fomo bubble that we know so much about um and you know maybe maybe other people can talk to some of the other Financial bubbles that have happened over time right this isn't new yeah this is this and the thing with crypto is the Cycles are very short right I mean the last bear Market was not that long ago in 2018 and now we're in the second one um the thing is our rules and regulations gonna come fast and we saw in 2018 2019 um crypto winter about 800 billion dollars on market cap was wiped out this clipped the winter over two trillion dollars so what we know is if crypto does go back up there's very likely somewhere down the line it's going to go back down again and more people will get hurt more people lose money and that's just the nature of any Financial market and the crypto Market isn't any different from that so I mean real rules and regulations come after this this bubble or will be the next one we don't know I mean they are coming slowly but you know you look at 19 1929 stock market crash four years later you had the 1933 Securities act and bank bank act and those Securities laws are still applicable today and has created one of the largest Capital markets in the world in the US because of those Securities laws and investor protections and so we expect that to come to the crypto Market as well at some point we just don't know it's after this crypto winter or the next one yeah I think the big question in my mind is if that social stores in 1933 didn't happen or they were formulated differently would we have a larger market or a smaller one or would we have a like a more Wild Wild West marketer where we have a a more structured Market markets tend to clean themselves you know if you look at what happened recent with FTX or luna or Celsius or any of these collapses that we've seen recently and you compare those to something like Lehman Brothers I think Lehman Brothers is 43 billion uh was the number right we're looking at FTX which apparently somewhere between 50 and 100 and 75 billion I don't know what the number is but no one knows the number is yep it's a big number and it's bigger than Lehman and if you look at pricing of the stock market after Lehman and how long it took to correct and the amount of time that it went through Congress the amount of time that they talked about bailouts and how they were going to restructure the market and what it did every time some a senator came out and said you know oh the talks aren't going very well you know because the Democrats are the talks aren't going well because the Republicans all that did was provide more and more fodder for the market basically to go to [ __ ] and in crypto no one's bailing us out no one's coming in with a check taxpayers aren't going to come in and foot the bill nobody's going to come in and give you your money back from FTX you took a risk and you lost and the market price wise is right back where it was when FTX collapsed it took two months and if if you think about kind of Market structure the one of the big arguments from everybody is that you know this is a Wild Wild West Market this this Market is you know immature Etc and it is very immature from many different angles but in terms of a market I'd argue that it's slightly more mature than some of our largest markets in the world because in the day it doesn't need you know it's Mom and Dad to come out and cut a check to get it back where it was people simply take the loss and they move on that's kind of beautiful to be quite honest in terms of bubbles well I mean when you think about financial bubbles they usually come every 20 to 30 to 40 years it's about 20 years rough it's like it's like a major hurricane right major hurricane hits like the east coast of the U.S or Mexico Caribbean every 20 years well there's a financial crisis pretty much every 20 years almost like clockwork right sometimes it's a little less you can see them every 10 years like we have in the last maybe 10 or 20 years but in crypto we see bubbles every year whether it's an innovation bubble like you know Ico and ft whatever you know there's always some new thing that comes out that generally kind of creates a bubble but that bubble never really pops it just deflates a bit and stays there and waits for like the next Innovation to come along to make it an actual bubble and so every year we just create new bubbles which is kind of interesting from uh Innovation standpoint but it also begs the question if we were highly regulated would we have bubbles every year probably not and so what happens when we do get highly regulated does this become boring is it going to be you know bus four talking to three people in five years because nobody gives a [ __ ] anymore because there's no more volatility you can't make money on [ __ ] coins and Bitcoin moves like four dollars a day and that's it that might be where we're headed that's traditional markets for you right unless it's a you know Meme stock nobody really cares I mean that's that and that and that could be where we're headed I don't know if that's good or bad but you know that might be the track we're on yeah I'd like to expand a little bit on the point you made about the self-sufficiency of the industry relatives say traditional finance and the fact that nobody was there to bail us out in some respects crypto at this point is already too big to fail I think I think if if it did collapse completely it would cause huge huge ripple effect in in the economy as a whole in the financial sector as a whole because so many companies do have Investments um in in their um and uh and when there wasn't when there was like a major failure you know no one goes crying to the government to bail us out in part because we're off operating our our own we're not depending upon the government for the regulation um the government doesn't see us as something I say necessary to The Climate they're going to step in um and that's in in and of itself a sign of maturity even though we're young we're able to to step up to the plate and and solve our problems and and not let Mom need Mom and Dad to come back to Bill it's not this really good point the only thing I'll add is we just don't know yet because it's still early I mean the next bubble we might see the government ask for a bailout you know there's a saying every industry gets one bail out of the Auto industry they got two but you know we don't know maybe in five years the crypto industry got real big and there's another crash that might happen we just don't know you know I think those Trump checks were the bailout to be honest that was the first crypto bailout that all went into crypto right everybody well Bitcoin with that 700 or whatever it was you know sure are there any questions please raise the hand thanks for the the talk so far been very interesting um you kind of had the consensus that regulation wouldn't have prevented FTX and that self-regulation is what the industry needs that doesn't sound like the best policy to to try and enforce because you can't enforce it right that by by Merit of what it is what do you think the solution is in the long run um for either Regulators or for third parties um to build in a sort of additional outside level of trust so that people are incentivized to make the right decision and to be self-regulating you know yeah I mean I'm actually going to take issue with you saying that that self-regulation doesn't work there are many other Industries where there are plenty of examples of self-regulating bodies that that where the industry itself governs the way things work basically for the best of the industry and that to be running a business in that sector you basically have to be you don't have to be you have to be a member of one of those self-regulating institutions it's in the energy business in the telecoms business where I come from and so on where this is all happening so you're not going to have a business if you're not complying by the rules set out by the industry and they're typically Industries where stuff changes really really often because legislation as we heard it's it's framework legislation it always has to be because it takes seven eight years to go through the system so you can never catch up with technology and crypto we're beginning to say it Switzerland has a self-regulating body um I mean I don't know if we've got any real viewers to whether that's a success or otherwise but we haven't seen any massive collapses out of Switzerland you might argue for now for that could be for many reasons um but I I think self-regulating bodies does have a purpose and does have a place and historically in other industries does manage so so I think we can do a lot with that and we've grown-ups in the room which which we heard earlier managing these things yes likely it would be a combination of both regulations and srls I mean not finras I think those sros and traditional finance and then you know they have all this regulations SEC and other um governmental bodies looking at them so I think in in crypto that's probably the best way to work it out you're going to have an SRO but you're also going to have srl self-regulatory organization and you'll also have regulations on top of that do you ever have like a neighborhood you ever live in a place like a neighborhood watch yeah that old lady that comes out and like complains about everybody parking in front of our house and [ __ ] and nobody parks in front of our house that's an SRO I mean literally at the end of the day the great thing about an SRO is you have all competing companies that sit in the same membership and so if you look at what happened with FTX who's the first person to report an FTX it was Twitter right and it was Twitter because there was somebody that knew what was happening it came out and and started to report it publicly and if I was a part of a self-regular organization and I saw what was happening at FTX you damn right I would come and report it to that self SRO because well one of one it behooves me commercially because obviously I'm going to report it because I'm not doing the same thing and so actually you know sros are quite powerful to be honest at the end of the day if you think about how Regulators work they work in a very similar manner the only difference is is that they're not Insiders but in an SRO it's all Insiders it's a it's it's quite powerful it can be corrupt as well for sure but at the end of the day yeah neighborhood watch think about it you have an old woman for sure in the building you live in or the street you live on that complains about everything and when she complains about it stops happening you know if there's a dog [ __ ] on her lawn she complains about it the dog donation aren't along works great system you know I think when we talk about these things it is about regulations are going to be very they're going to be framework regulations they're going to give some broad brush Concepts about how things are going to work and what we're going to see in in crypto and in decentralized technology over the next five or ten years is is a move from the financial world to gaming world to all sorts of stuff we don't even understand when we're at the internet like 1990 whenever five or something it was an information Highway it wasn't a trading Highway they forgot identity on the internet they forgot payment in the internet that's kind of why we have this stuff running now and and we're going to have to develop much faster than that the framework is going to have to guide that and the more specific that legislation becomes the more Troublesome it becomes because it's easier to find a way around it the more prescripted it is and legislators don't like that to say it's like the you know the Ten Commandments basically they were a pretty good way to conduct your life regardless of which religion you have you know and it's kind of work well for a long bit of time let's get the last question yeah yeah son okay um yeah I've been in the business uh for quite some time since 2013. I love the business but I I get I just drives me crazy why are there so many goddamn scammers and hackers that come around there's probably some in this [ __ ] conference how do we get rid of them and why are they why are they drawn here like why are they drawing this business so much no I mean my view is enforcement needs to be harder and more effective on these things I mean we read even about the high profile scammers in crypto and the big cases that we see and they are still on Twitter they're still going on they're still acting they're still trading they're still doing stuff and there doesn't seem to be any way of getting hold of them in the international law thing right now maybe that's a function of international law is that if you break the law in Spain you can go to the I don't know the Philippines or somewhere and live a happy life and as long as that goes on it's all right but how do you get rid of scammers I mean the first rule of scamming is you hide your identity you want to prove that I'm somebody else that's most of what this is going on decentralized technology doesn't lend itself to you know to identity self-creation of identity and things like that but systems are coming along now that that are that are going to enable that so you're going to have an identity which is approved by all of us here or other people or or a body or whatever that you're going to look after yourself we've heard about self-sovereign identity if you've been from 2013 you've seen them as well self-solvering identity coming along which means every single D5 contract every single activity you do online will be and somehow verifiable back to your real world identity which will be held not in a central huge great Experian database ready to be hacked but by the decentralized ledgers around the world and that technology exists today and it's been built and it's been built quickly and I think this is one of the ways of getting rid of scammers is to make sure that at least if you're interacting with somebody you've got a good idea who they are everybody know who Madoff was everybody knows F was everybody knew who half of these guys were but but the lowlifes they hide in the shadows and the more we can we can keep the Shadows illuminated I think the better yeah I every industry has scammers every industry has hackers every industry has their and if there was a recent chain analysis report that put a spotlight on the amount of kind of Fraud and or kind of Bad actors in terms of transaction volume it's actually a very small percentage of transaction volume you know as a centralized exchange we see the same thing any e-commerce platform sees you know we see people with stolen credit cards we see people scamming people on other websites and trying to use as a payment Gateway all that stuff happens I don't think we ever get rid of it and I don't think there's any real way to get rid of it because at the end of the day like we've discussed here already people are corruptable and humans generally suck and so at the end of the day there will always be people that try to game the system no matter how good the system is there's always going to be smarter somebody smarter than the system they're going to game it and that's just that's just what's going to happen I think the problem really is is we're too small now so no matter what the number is if the mainstream media came out tomorrow and said that I don't know 200 million was you know fleeced from retail investors in crypto CNN BBC you know Al Jazeera every News Network would put that on people like oh 200 million it's a terrible industry we should shut it down you know nobody compares numbers versus transaction volumes nobody cares about the actual stats they just hear a number and it sounds big but if they actually told the number of the amount of people that lost money to a credit card scam it's billions every year it's massive but we don't talk about it because obviously you know MasterCard is better lobbyist than we do right now but at some point we will get good lobbyists and we won't hear about this anymore because the market will be big enough where it might be 200 million or 2 billion or whatever the number is but it'll be small in comparison I think it's just about bringing some norms and standards I mean but the MasterCard Story I mean Master if I if I scam you then MasterCard will refund you to get the trust in the system going and we're beginning to see some of these insurance policies coming up in in D5 for example where you've got these Insurance funds and stuff like that and and I think they're likely to become more popular because I'd rather be interacting somehow with a place which has got an insurance fund sorry guys I know we would keep going for uh quite a lot but the time has come thanks a lot thanks to our panelists thanks to the audience it has been very inspiring and please enjoy the rest of the convention thank you everybody thanks everybody