Are Financial Institutions Finally Adopting Crypto? | European Blockchain Convention 9

[Music] 3 2 1 [Music] go premium.com hello thank you very much for joining us I'm Nic ascari digital markets correspondent at the financial times um and I'm joined here by a wonderful panel where we'll be discussing whether financial institutions are finally adopting crypto I'm joined by Manuel Nesta from Fidelity Investments Christopher seeden talk from uphold Ana Nova from gk8 and Eliza dinga from 21 shares so thank you all I mean we are having this conversation about whether the financial institutions are adopting crypto over the past few days where the price of Bitcoin has jumped to 35,000 or touched it um and I guess there might be a few people from traditional Finance in the audience wondering whether they should have got into crypto or been trading and I'm interested in where you sit along the Spectrum and how you think about crypto and I'm talking about the asset class I'm talking about Bitcoin ethereum and we can get onto tokenization later but you know the pure crypto asset class what do you do in this space Manuel yeah happy to start and thanks for thanks for the warm welcome um yes so fidy assets is a subsidiary Fidelity Investment Fidelity Investment is obviously um very very large um asset manager mostly known as an asset manager but it's a pretty large Financial Services firm Fidelity assets does custody and execution uh for uh crypto assets uh such as Bitcoin and ether um we've been liveed since 2018 um and so probably the first kind of large Financial Service institution in this space and so we've seen you know it's been interesting to be in this space for a while and kind of see the um the various Cycles right and I think we we have a strong belief in the long-term proposition of the asset class and of what the technology enables and the business models that it enabl so you know we we certainly continue to invest in this business uh with a view that you know perhaps even though we have very volatile and very sort of extreme Cycles in this asset class that there's an upwards trajectory in terms of in terms of adoption and how about you hello my name is Ana I'm with gk8 so at gk8 we help Banks protocols exchanges funds manage their digital assets whether it's Bitcoin or ethereum or many other um asset classes and um using GK software our clients are able to safely store funds transfer funds without the risk of getting hacked uh interact with any defi protocol that's out there through MMI integration or do things like launch stable coins um or tokenize real world assets so we're not a custodian we um offer technology that allows customers uh to maintain their own private keys because we believe Enterprise customers um need to control their private key at all times and to be able to manage store digital Assets in a a highly secure unreachable way and um the history of the company is actually quite interesting it got started by cyber Security Experts who hacked into a really well-known bullet uh in just a matter of days and realized that what's on the market right now is just no way near secure enough to um uh for banks or protocols so exchanges and funds to get into this space so that's how the company was born and over the last several years it ruin an Enterprise grade solution with a governance lay on top of that um and earlier this year we got acquired by Galaxy which is a well respected publicly listed company in the space that does asset management global trading and infrastructure so we have a number of strategic initiatives with them they're a large customer of ours and at this point we're securing billions of dollars worth of assets uh through our combination of a deep cold Vault warm wallet and a cash box which is a unique Innovation that we offer so that's kind of the um summary of who we are very helpful thank you Christopher yeah hi thank you my name is Christopher I run the institutional sales efforts at uphold uphold has been around for 9 years which in crypto time is a long time and uh we initially focused on retail customers but just like the industry is evolving and and pivoting towards institutional clients we've now rolled out in uh OTC trading desk for institutions and we provide fundamental research we're really focusing on old coins so we're trying to provide education and execution which I think is really important in the space when it comes to identifying tokens um we identify them early we look for utility and liquidity which I'm sure we're going to discuss a little bit more later in detail um is key where when we when we're hoping for institutions to enter this space um I think the main two pivotal points are liquidity and security and I look forward to the discussions later on and Eliza sure um so I run the research department at 21 shares we are uh world the world's largest uh ETP issuer for crypto assets we have about a billion dollar in assets the management um and for us education is key uh before entering into the asset class and that's why when you talk about education and fundamental resource is really music to here uh because we really want to enable and building a bridge into the asset class we also have 21.co which is our parent company our blockchain business where essentially we have the platform to toize assets as well um and this is really trying to build a bridge into the asset class as well from a technological perspective um so we're super excited to be here on when we think about trading and investing in crypto El I'm interested in well you've got large financial institutions for example a lot of large asset managers Pension funds that are very wary of the asset class whether it be regulation or otherwise reasons but on the flip side there are people who you know traditional financial institutions who are getting into crypto what what do they look like where where are they from you know who are those institutions that are getting into crypto at the moment and what sort of client base do you have Aizer yeah it's a great question I think there's a variety of of multiple invest that we deal with uh like family offices private Banks um high of individuals prop funds um so it's very Diversified I think when you look at the scurve of the adoption cycle for crypto assets we're still very early um today for example the combined amount of etps compared to the total market cap of crypto assets is less than I believe um 20% so it shows again how early is asset class and most of the investors Obe also in Europe uh because we serveice the European markets in Switzerland in Germany France Etc um but I would say for the lag guards like the insurance companies the S and wealth funds um they're not there yet um and and that's normal because of course the asset class has to mature they have to understand how they can categorize the asset class compared to all equities or fix income um so there is a lot of Education to happen uh before we get there uh but we're seeing a lot of interest for Education um and and I think despite the fact that we had or we still have a bare market like depending on how you're looking at this we know that education is really at an alltime high to better understand the as a class from a fundamental perspective Manuel you've been doing this for a long time Fidelity or Fidelity has been doing this for a long time what me too you yes um the the investors the clients that you service yeah what do they look like what sort of spectrum are they on yeah it's it's it's pretty wide range um a little bit like what Eliza was saying one one thing that I've have noticed however is the the profile is changing um this is a market that unlike traditional Markets started a little bit like a retail movement right post the the GFC um and and you've kind of seen kind of the inverse curve they do normally have in terms of adoption and so you've seen you know a few years ago it was largely retail and high netw worth individuals the high with individuals some of them that have family offices then started bringing them family offices um the family officers that then invest the hedge funds started bringing in their hedge funds and I think that's kind of the adoption curve and I think you're starting to see some of that transpire into those large allocators such as the traditional asset managers the pensions um and and it makes sense right I think those guys have been they they don't they've not been on the sidelines they've been investing through uh private Equity through VC through some of the public companies right and so they you know some of them have public uh sort of positions in some of those companies but it's much harder to choose an equity investment that's going to be the winner of a particular you know set of functionality in in this space than to invest in the infrastructure itself and so I think to alliz this point like certainly the infrastructure needs to mature right people quote you know a number of reasons volatility is one of them but regulation is another one you know security operational risk like there's a lot of stuff that I think we we need to figure out and and frankly like valuation is you know very few people have again educated themselves well enough to to have pricing models around Bitcoin around East let alone sort of the long taale of assets and so there's some things that you know and that's what institutions do by the way they should bring their clients kind of portfolio construction tools and and modeling and that sort of thing so I think as those things slot into place you know the investment thesis around okay we think this technology is you know has explosive growth potential um and instead of inv investing in individual companies we want to invest like I think that that's something that we hear a lot um and so I think it's kind of a matter of time and it's going to go through that kind of you know ticking chain of demand as people demand their pension managers their insurance companies Etc to have a position because they can't you know they because it's going to become untenable not to be in it rather than too dangerous to be in it which I think is still where we kind of are now for some of those investors and you're on the infrastructure technology side like what sort of clients have been asking for your services using your services have you seen it like Manel said a change in that demographic over the past 12 months 18 months yeah we we definitely seen uh Banks wanting to get uh into offering digital assets more and and I think what's been stopping them is just um not having the fundamentals and trying to figure out how do we actually offer digital assets to clients in a secure way because you know the last thing a bank wants to do is to write a letter to the shareholders saying or our entire treasury has been hacked or we lost all of client funds so that's you know obviously we we're getting a lot of interest in Bound interest asking well how exactly do I secure the assets transact them in a uh entirely cold way because a lot of the solutions that are out there on the market might call themselves cold but they're not they actually become hot at one point or another um so at GK we offer a completely unreachable uh cold Vault that has no digital inputs not internet connected um so we don't reduce the cyber security risk we completely eliminate that and another component that comes with that because of this Innovation we've been able to partner with insurance companies that ensure uh our clients uh for up to $1 billion per cold Vault so it's not pulled Insurance uh which is you know obviously another important component and that's the highest insurance on the market and then everyone needs a warm wallet uh for high frequency automated transactions and I think the warm wallets out on the market right now as you probably know use MPC technology which stands for multiparty computation where the private key split into three shards and um I just don't think that's sufficient because a hacker only needs to compromise three Internet connected devices or three Cloud instances to uh attack the funds so um and we already seen that happen before so liquid exchange lost $1 million $100 million to an MPC hack so we think that MPC uh algorithms that's split the key into many more parts like a gka we have dozens of shards uh is probably the future where you know it makes it exponentially harder for a hacker to um get access to those dozens of computers and um makes it nearly impossible or or impossible to attack those funds Christopher I'm interested on the altcoin side what sort of um clients you have what sort of interest you have on that thanks Nico I mean we we're more focusing on the um crypto native funds and and the ones that have been active in this space and the ones that can trade so um large asset managers do not fall into into our scope until clear regulation is in place but um I think the key point for us is to provide education in that space and navigate that space and at the same time you know as I mentioned before provide liquidity because it's Bitcoin and ether well flagged and you know many panelists even on the conference here today will focus on on the two Majors but then what are the other blockchains trying to solve what is their use case and that's where we're shedding some light into into that topic um but at the same time Bitcoin on eth I would regard as more or less liquid um maybe not even liquid enough for institutional adoption but the most liquid but then you come into a a tail end or even even the the mid-range of uh old coins where you struggle with liquidity and and the service that we focus on there is uh the service as a liquidity agre Ator so we're not an exchange and we're not a custodian and I think it's important that if we expect institutions to come into the space that we have service providers that each focus on a key um problem that they're trying to solve um we combine liquidity across centralized and decentralized venues and and and therefore are able to um price these old coins quite aggressively but I just want to emphasize the point the first step is to highlight these tokens because I mean statistics vary there's what 20,000 tokens out there um I I think being able to identify which ones have utility and which ones don't is is very valuable so it's it's the research that we focus on it's interesting you say that because research is important and highlighting those tokens yeah I understand that but if you're a a traditional finan institution and asset manager wondering how do I even start where do I even start what are the barriers for them that they need to overcome to to even get to that place yeah know I think that's look that's a very good point point and and and being being at a conference you know when when Bitcoin is up 10% on the week and everyone's super bullish and everyone knows this phace uh we have to remind ourselves that there's a world out there where where people may have heard of Bitcoin but that's probably it so I think the the points have been flagged in um you know in Academia and and in research that adding digital assets to your bond and Equity portfolio is hugely beneficial so from a from a diversification aspect it makes absolute sense to invest in this asset class but how do you do that and you know it's great we' got 21 on the panel today um because etps is a rapper that institutions are familiar with and and for them to add that then to their portfolios is is an easy easy barrier there well there's no no barrier to entry from that point yeah Li are on the on the etps I mean when you get a new client new customer coming to you what are the questions that they're asking what are the barriers that they see in getting into this phas there is a lot of questions about what are crypto assets are they actually currencies are the asset or the platforms um so at 21 shares we really try to answer these basic questions um which is number one what are crypto assets so what we did is coming up with the global classification standard called gccs very similar to gics from standard and poor in the late 1990s so that the investors can see the differences between Bitcoin ethereum and the longtail uh and look at how they can be categorized the same way we have financials military and over sectors in the stock market we have the same as well with crypto assets when we look at just the top 10 by market cap actually a lot of them are just a bunch of different blockchains trying to become the next app stores for the next generation of the internet services so to answer this basic question we actually launched the global gassification standard with K geeko one of the largest price providers in crypto and then the second question that we get a lot is how do I value crypto assets uh do they have intrinsic value do we can we find inic Value and measure it uh with Bitcoin or ethereum or any of long assets and it really comes from the classification and then how do you compare these valuation models with for example a discounted cash flow method for ethereum because there is revenue or a the cost of production for Bitcoin because we can see that with the miners that that that that's an activity that creates revenue for the minor so there is a way to actually measure intrinsic value for digital assets and then the third question is how do actually diversify in my portfolio does that falls under alternative assets what would be the ideal percentage of my allocation is it 5% is 1% um how how often should I rebalance on a daily basis monthly basis Etc so we do provide valuation models per allocation um uh portals as well at 21 shares and of course our classification standard to really help them get from zero to one in the class an and you mentioned hacks and you mentioned the issue of cyber security which is obviously CR critical in this industry what sort of questions and concerns do you see um from yeah new players that are worried about that they don't want to be on the Ft front page because they've been hacked well exactly yeah so so they want that deep cold functionality where the assets are entirely unreachable but they also don't want to have their assets um someplace remote where you know they have to travel um to to be able to sign offline transactions they want to have instant access to those assets which is something that we provide as well they want to be able to rebalance assets easily and automatically between the cold storage and the warm wallet and they want to have a governance layer on top of that uh which is like a policy engine where they can easily track uh their users add users assign them to different functions roles meaning that no transaction or fonts can't be transacted um by mistake uh you can't send a transaction without the relevant approvers or to their own address so we find that uh Banks especially really care about that policy engine the governance lay and they want it to be um something that they used to so something that they currently use for traditional assets so for example integration with active directory which is what banks um do use in order to add users uh or remove users they want policies that don't have any conflicts in that they want daily limits uh weekly limits uh they want different policies and different approval flows for different assets types it it just all comes down to um you know you can't just have custody you can't just have a a warm wallet you need to have a full package uh that the a bank or an exchange or a protocol or fund can adopt yeah on the full package Manuel how do you answer that whole I was actually going to jump in if you hadn't yeah no I I think like I entirely agree um the you know custody in this space is something that you know because in the traditional Finance space custody is largely commoditized right um you know there's if you're able to custody your security basically means got a books and record system you've got some taxation reporting on top of it but it's it's something that any custodian and there's only by the way there's only a handful of really like Global custodians in in the world um and I imagine I I haven't worked in that space for a while but I imagine their pricing schedules are more or less kind of the same uh across the world that that's not and it shouldn't be the case in digital assets yet um the reason being all the all the reasons Anya just just uh listed right like this is a custody is a game that really at the moment at least it only really works at scale like you should have globally distributed um you know no single point of failure for sure but globally distributed uh multi- signature type Solutions um you know ideally you need an organization of a few hundred to really make sure that you have the right segregation of Duties the right levels of approvals and and so on and so forth so it goes beyond the technology it goes into kind of a deep control expertise that frankly you know fintech normally doesn't have the scale to build out um and hence I think this need for specialization with with which Christopher was was touching on right I think is something that crypto is just coming into now because we thought he could do everything in these sort of vertically integrated Monsters of risk right where you know you're onboarding clients you're matching up liquidity you're clearing that liquidity you're doing margin lending you're doing custody and all of these small sets of problems even if there is no ill intention or or sort of any fraudulent Behavior involved all of those are pretty big jobs right and and and there's specialization so I think you know it'll be important to see we're starting to see that already um to Ana's point you know one one of the things that we're working on also is making sure that clients can you know if if they're on our platform and the safety of our platform then they're then able to connect to external venues to go and trade or to go and get loans Etc so there's certainly a trend there uh um and and we're seeing this kind of popping up all over the place we're starting to see the the market organically doing that um and then it's very possible you know and we're seeing some starts of this in some jurisdictions that Regulators are just going to enforce it right you know that we've we've been kind of added for a while I think The Regulators are going to come in um at some point and start enforcing some of these principles that that have been sort of transferred over from from traditional Finance it's good that you touched on um regulation because I think that's the one area that we need to touch on that is really or the lack of Regulation is really the hindrance for a lot of large financial institutions into getting into this because they don't know where the guardrails are they don't want to be stepped on or caught out by the SEC for example how should they navigate that how do you navigate that for example Manuel yeah it's I mean it's it's a hugely complex space right um globally you have um you have a pretty a pretty difficult sort of puzzle that you're trying to put together if if you want to operate globally um between t point and the us but at the moment in Europe we still don't have harmonized regulation either so Europe as a moment is a collection of UK plus then 27 different versions of similar um AML directives and so it's you know and then in Asia again like quite you know quite a quite a a mix of of different regulations so it's so it's hard the way that we approach it is always with you know clients and Commercial principles in in mind uh and obviously making sure that we're always compliant right but but we at the moment is difficult to kind of say that you service the entire world um we look at a simply from a client Demand right and and whether it's feasible and commercially reasonable to do it U and that's really how we approach it so if there's a regul there's a country where there's a lot of Demands we have a lot of clients asking us for for our services uh we would typically go and you know do a do a legal analysis um and then as required you know go and get licensing and that kind of thing but it's it's pretty peace meal I would say at this point um so we're very much much looking forward in Europe for example very much looking forward to M right and having that harmonization across the the block of 27 um also frankly it some of those investor protection and sort of Market safety principles that it brings um you know if if you're a a well-run custodian or or venue then you're doing them anyway um and so in our case sometimes we you know we spend a lot of time and effort and money doing things correctly but the regulation doesn't give us that stamp of approval so I think it's it's important to level the playing field as well I guess the risk is historically there have been some venues or companies that haven't been doing haven't been you know as you said doing it in the right way um which sort of plays into the fears that I guess a lot of uh asset managers financial institutions have um ana how do you help navigate the the regulation lack of Regulation disperate regulation uh I mean I suppose we we just respond to the uh requirements that our clients might have so some of them might have a be in a jurisdiction that requires them to actually store the private key in that jurisdiction if they have any client funds so we able to um Implement our solution with that in mind whether that's on premise or cloud-based to make sure that the private key never leaves that jurisdiction we also able to uh do things like optional HSM deployments so uh Hardware safety module some uh clients require that some don't it's actually interesting because um I I think uh people are getting a bit more educated on that subject but in the past um some of the questions we were getting well we have an HSM why do we need something that protects us from cyber security attacks and HSM really just protects your private key from physical attacks but I don't actually need to extract your private key in order to direct your funds to a different address and that's how the company uh was founded they they did just that all you need to do is um attack um and replace an addc for example a recipient in the transaction that's being formed and that those funds will go elsewhere so I suppose we just um make sure that we work with clients side by side and that using the J solution they're able to uh comply to any regulation that they might have in their jurisdiction same question to you Christopher around regulation yeah so um I mean we interestingly we're a US firm that's now more expanding into Europe um we've always been fully regulated FCA regulated um but I mean my personal stance is that the SEC is slowly softening up I mean we've seen that with the ruling in in in the U in the xrp Ripple case um you know with the forthcoming ETP approvals I think we're moving in the right direction but luckily there's also a world outside of the US and and to Manuel's point you know I'm being European based or being being UK based but but with Europe being our key Market uh I'm very excited about MAA um I think you know that we've always played by the book is is probably one of the reasons why we're still around um 2022 was hard for the entire industry and and and we're slowly rebuilding the trust that was broken and and regulation will play a key part so I think the right initiatives are being made it it's slow um maybe too slow for some but I'm I'm actually very optimistic about what lies ahead and same question Eliza how do you navigate that especially in the US yeah sure uh so interestingly for us we started the business in Switzerland um our Founders um Hy um hashan and oia Snider look at more than 20 different jurisdictions before actually launching the company back in 2017 um and in San has been actually the most crypto friendly jurisdiction to actually launch exchange traded products at the time and it still is uh and across Europe as well then we can pass passport the um the ETP but you know for for us when we have questions about regulation is really for the underlying assets than actually for the typical issuers um and for the underlying assets is very clear for Bitcoin but I think for the longtail the is question mark in the US um while in over jurisdictions we're seeing a lot of regulators trying to embrace the asset class for example like in Hong Kong um exposing now digital assets through exchange rated products with futures um so we're seeing more and more I would say uh interest and education from The Regulators across the world actually uh to understand better the asset class from the cftc from o over uh over Regulators as well so I think that's really the exciting part um but but I think what we're going to see in the coming year is the fruition of many bills uh that are up coming in the US and I think that that would give more more clarity as well for the SS Christopher you're nodding and you also much touched on on the Bitcoin ETF um or you know the excitement around the possibility of a Bitcoin ETF yes what do you make of that do you think that the the an approval would open the floodgates to adoption yeah no thanks Nico I'm I'm personally I'm very excited about uh the the the ETFs the etps however you want to define the products the approval in the US um I mean we saw on Monday with the fake news coming out uh the market Spike that that caused which shows two things a um the lack of liquidity still in the market but also gave us a taste of what is to come once these products and and I'm I'm really um I want I want to say when not if because I'm uh I'm convinced that they will um and it's a rapper that institutions are familiar with I want to come back to the point that you know we all know here how to navigate a wallet and how to do crypto transactions institutions just by buying an ETF they don't have to do that and and that's a that's familiar familiar ity it's it's security and uh so to answer your question yeah I'm I'm really excited about it Manuel I'm afraid I have to put the same question to you because I know Fidelity is in this race yeah so so I I you know because Fidelity is has an ongoing filing I I can't comment on the the USF directly what what I can say I I mean I agree with um Christopher's sentiment around you know the familiarity of certain rappers right and and so you know it's no secret like Fidelity has got um you know Fidelity various Asset Management arms have got um other products in in Market in other parts of the world um and it's no secret that we think you know different investors will have different ways of accessing the market and it's important for for for those access points to be to be sort of open in a well and well regulated way right where you know whether there's huge amounts of of liquidity um waiting to kind of pour into the market I think you know there's different factors including sort of macroeconomic conditions Etc and you know we have a lot of research around what some of those factors are so it's it's difficult to tell I certainly wouldn't want to speculate on price Etc but but as a again like thinking about longterm having good Market access points is is a very important thing and so and so that that would be a positive development in that sense we're slowly running out of time so I guess my final brief question is what you each think it will take for mainstream adoption of crypto for the floodgates to open whether that's regulation whether it's the Bitcoin ETF for you know crypto to be accepted widely um as a mainstream asset class Manel um so we have I mean we have some data on this I try I try and go back to that otherwise otherwise like we're all personally biased I'm certainly very biased because because I work in this space right but um what the data tell us that we we typically run this study um well we have to run this study once a year and we get a an an independent company to come in and um and Survey you know not all of our investors but globally survey in excess of a thousand investors it's a pretty pretty wide range uh all the way from family offices to sort of Define benefit plans and that kind of thing um it it goes back to to that barrier component so on the sort of positive of like what makes you come into the space is a kind of you know disruptive technology play the lack of correlation although in 2022 there was there that dropped off somewhat and um you know and and so so those are sort of the two main two main bits most investors like by some margin most investors that we survey think that digital assets are appealing um and if they look at it in sort of the three-year time period I think that goes up like 90 something per of investors think that they have a place in a portfolio but then they also tell us why they don't have it in their portfolio yet U right or or barriers for either new investment or further investment um and there's some work to do right like some some of it is volatility and actually I think you know volatility kind of goes away with institutional adoption over the long term um but there there are things like you know fundamental so security clearly still a Hot Topic um we probably thought as an industry in 2021 that we were kind of done with it and clearly the market events of 2022 show that there wasn't um that level of maturity necessarily um and then other sort of institutionalization issues I think valuation as um Eliza was mentioning is is a big one a lot of uh a lot of investors and their research teams haven't quite trained up to be able to evaluate these assets and and build sort of pricing models around them and that kind of thing so so it is those kind of barriers of you know regulatory environment institutionalization and maturation of the asset class and I think as those drop off then more and more investors start again right yeah Eliza very briefly what will it take um I I think you know for for digital assets or crypto assets um I think there are two ways to think about um how to reach mainstream adoption uh we haven't crossed the chasm yet and I think for the investable assets so Bitcoin FM and the longtail is really providing an easy access to the um to the asset class uh through of course exchange fre products or any other type of regulated exchanges where people can have access to the to to the asset class more easily uh and safely as well um and then for the techn techology itself uh we have a long way actually to cross the chasm um for us the way we actually describe the stage at which we are for digital assets is actually like in the early 1990s where we had the web pages loading for like 5 minutes or taking hours to send an email today to transact on the eum network it takes 50 transactions per second right compared to the Visa Network for 2,000 transactions per second we are not there yet for having that scalability that kind compete against against uh payment networks but there is a lot of Technologies out there uh that are super exciting so I would say to sumarize for the technology we need more scalability interoperability cyber security and easy uh easier interfaces as well because some of them are honestly to some extent Delirious to see uh so we're quite excited to see more and more Innovation on that on that from that front of the technology Ana what will it take uh well I agree with manual uh we need to go at least 6 to 12 months without any hacks so that would help quite a bit and most hacks occur because a private key is exposed so we need to protect against that and then um on the other side it's not all about like crypto assets like Bitcoin ethereum we seen clients interested in issuing stable coins and I think there is a demand for a stable coin that's issued by a regulated Bank uh issued securely and safely and is made available to everyone I think that will facilitate uh Global adoption quite a bit as well as tokenized uh real world assets bonds money markets real estate and Christopher your point of view yeah um I think there's two elements mainstream adoption comes back to uh crypto use cases so you know if you if you go to Turkey you can pay at a supermarket in Bitcoin uh at a coffee shop in a toy store um the other thing is store value um if you live in Argentina right now you know the uh Bitcoin in in denominated in peso is at an alltime high so store value is still a key factor but for financial institutions and that's what we're talking about here today adopting crypto we can't get around um regulation so for me for me that's key um just quickly to Ana's point you know cash on chain there was a brilliant panel on earlier today um with um you know four of the largest European and and US asset managers managing trillions um experimenting with tokenization so I think you know there there's a lot more happening behind the scenes that we may know of um so I'm I'm extremely optimistic um around answering the question with a with a strong yes financial institutions are adopting crypto optimism is it's a good thing um well thank you so much I'm afraid we've sort of run out of time um thank you to my panel and thank you all for joining us enjoy the rest of the day