Panel I OP Stack vs Polygon CDK vs zkStack | Pragma Istanbul 2023

[Music] let's go into learning about how to build your own rollups okay so over the last year we've seen a massive growth and interest in people being more interested in deploying their own chains it started with base being the one of the biggest ones and it kind of set the stage for everybody also getting more interested and uh I want to spend some time understanding what is the reason why people are doing this thing how they should be thinking about it if they should be thinking about it so I'll kind of start with just asking you uh maybe with Ben first is uh why do people want to deploy their own chains why not stick to deploying to op mainnet and kind of focus on the app and the product instead of the infrastructure not because it's super super easy and I'll tell you that much you know I mean it's you know the product will evolve and I think there will be a in ever increasing bar of easiness and uh set of people who makes the right uh makes the right sense to deploy their chains but in terms of um what people are looking for I think there's a combination of things um some folks we talked to really care about the economics they are really interested in internalizing the sequencer economics as a new Revenue source for them um if you look at you know you mentioned base if you look at folks like coinbase another one is to sort of own their own destiny and have the block space that is very very very tightly integrated into the rest of their product offerings right that's what we see with someone like bass and you know obviously the last thing is um congestion like the reason to do a bunch of chains and not to be shoving everything on one chain maybe we'll get into what is one chain many chains combination thereof yes we will okay later on but of course the reason to this is horizontal scalability right so the other last thing is that if you have a huge amount of demand you don't want to be congested by other applications that have a huge amount of demand messing with your supply curve so the last reason is to have your own State space to congest all for yourself that seems like a very comprehensive list anything to add or uh or Nuance yeah I mean having a reservation of the transactions um for application I think this is something that's interesting and also the needs for the base layer or for the application could be different and here examples for example some applications would uh choose to be in a validum like and maybe half or some of them will be in a rollup uh in a on chain paying a little bit more uh for their transaction some of them will want centralized sequencer as maybe it's more than enough or even some private chains that they they want to keep the the data more privately only available to the sequencer that could be also an option and there are many and of course some chains they may want to have their own token or some chains may want to have a different criteria for selecting transactions I mean there is a lot of reasons that uh uh applications can defer one each other so each chain having their own chain and being like having this ownership but at the same time guaranteeing that you are in the same space with the shared liquidity with the same uh with the connectivity between other chains I think this is what makes this uh new new new Meo that we are entering that much more much more interesting and there is a lot of interest and aot a lot of new opportunities for applications uh for new applications uh in the space Alex anything you want to add it's hard to add something to this comprehensive list I'm just going to sum it up so the ownership and control and sovereignty of your chain taking um you know like introducing your custom rules being able to to say like how this chain specifically is going to function maybe adding some application specific logic especially relying on something like private chains uh that that are not really possible on uh on L one um having your aligning incentives with your community maybe through token um and being set up for Success if you expect a lot of usage in the future because we all remember crypto kitties or you know examples like if you're going to launch on mayet you and you become successful you automatically will not be successful right so like and this is especially important in the context of data availability which I'm sure we will cover later but rollups are all limited um the you like the the this custom chains can be unlimited if you design them in certain way so seems like we're implicitly agreeing there's going to be hundreds if not thousands of chains um on top of these chains and um people will kind of want to customize their parts of the features that they care about or not care about and remove those things is that going to be a chaotic world or like does that affect fragmentation does that actually increase and not like amplify fragmentation what's kind of the the thinking behind how you're how you're designing all of your infrastructure but I'm curious like do we see this as becoming a problem as there's a thousands more chains well this depends very much on us at this moment uh design designing a good uh base at the end this will depend very much on the friction if we want to have a lot of change a lot of change in the system we need to guarantee that the friction between the change is as minimal as possible this is something that the user should not even realize the idea is to have a to build a world of uh many chains but the end user they should see it as a space they should see it as a this is I mean this is challenging saying it's easy uh oh so maybe my my quick followup there is when you say you want to make sure there's less friction between chains is that speaking from the point of view of less friction between all the polygon cdk chains but not all other chains as well well it's it's yeah I mean we we are we that's what is what I'm about yeah but that's the that's the thing I mean the idea is of course if you want to have the less uh friction as possible is going to be the concept of a single roll up I mean that's the thing thing then we are thinking more the in the polygon is like as a constellation so probably the friction is going to be not a little bit more that if you have a single chain but should be much less then maybe we have this uh ethereum ecosystem space that should be interoperable maybe with a little bit more friction maybe we are talking that maybe a transaction instead of taking 10 seconds from going to one side to the other maybe takes uh 10 minutes which a finality more or less of a of a the but still okay I mean for many applications and maybe of course there is the other bigger space that interchain uh operativity uh here see the whole universe this is a little bit the the big pieces that we're seeing there but the important thing here is to reduce the friction at all levels and uh I think there is a space for the this constellation I mean we're talking about the few seconds uh so we're talking about with finality or just kind of that friction but not necessarily inter there is other things friction I mean usability use you I mean there is a lot of other things but this is one of those that I think is uh important at the infrastructure layer uh at this point I also don't want to go one by one so we just interrupt and uh and fine thanks you're welcome yeah I mean I you know I super agree with everything that that Jordy said I think you know the question the the word fragmentation can mean a lot of things obviously it's the case that we need to improve developer experience and get away from this chain ID metam mask switching nightmare that we're in at the same time fragmentation I think is just as problematic at uh layers of the stack especially for application developers so you know I think another failure mode that we're going to have is frag is like we basically are facing this critical decision I mean Jordy said you know this is happening as we speak where basically we all have to balance the trade-off between what is what is the right core kernel that gives developers a consistent experience and users a consistent experience and how do we balance that between basically customization right this's this very tight rope kind of walk balancing act that we're doing um to try to thread that needle um and so we spent a lot of time thinking about modularity and like making the core kernel that we have for the op stack as minimal as possible so that we can keep that thing from fragmenting at the same time you want to balance that with customizations that people want and so on and so forth so yeah I mean the thing I would add is just it's not just about the user experience there's a huge amount of developer experience implications and all the tooling and infrastructure so on so um I also agree I think at the uh uh within ecosystems like if we we take like polygon the b super chain zik Singh hyper chain we can easily build I relatively speaking easily uh we can build experience that is completely seamless think of like how many domains for email do we have Gmail Yahoo like all the companies have their own domain and yet you can connect and you can send email from any of them to any other email on any other Dom right and it feels smooth um to connect them between each other I think it's it's not up to us it it's it it will be like harsh reality is there will be separation of assets within between those systems that that are bridgeable with some friction uh and it is solvable but we would need to like cooperate at the level of the core protocol of ethereum so we like we come up with this minimum viable um interoperability set but we engrave it into ethereum itself otherwise it it just take like I'm I'm talking as a technologist and my background is engineering uh it just it it doesn't fit it so I mean let's get right into the actual details so we'll start with a quick exercise uh pretend I'm a I'm a really popular app that's now blocking all of mainnet transactions because I'm messing with the gas prices and it's time for me to think about moving to my own L2 so I want all of you to give me a pitch for why I should pick your platform and uh and what the benefits are I'm going to start with Al tell me why I should be on ZK sync so first of all it's obvious that you should build on a ZK rollup because that's the future you don't want to be building on something that that will eventually have to still migrate to Zol up but uh within zolp systems you want the um you want to build on Innovation that will actually work for your ultimate success case like you want to think through I have like millions of users will this like can I use this technology to bring Mass adoption to my chain and we can compare the features today but like I think it's more important to compare the trends and and just look at the like what's been the Innovation happening so far and with ziki SN we have specifically focused on this ultimate success case with Native account abstraction with the architecture with State diffs uh and like volution ZK Porter that you can actually on board millions of users on your chain and and have this transactions in parallel and other thing like investing a lot in security making sure that the system is actually ready for production we are the most bottle tested the chain today so all that combined gives you the the trajectory which you can invite that's see stack we going an order yeah I mean look Alex said you know the nail on the head that this is not a oneandone thing right like the challenge with um doing comparisons which I don't love doing in the first place right but the challenge with them is that we are in a highly rapidly evolving industry right so a lot of the conversations that we have talking about the op stack is really talking about the community that we've been building around it have something like five or six core development teams from Fortune 500s to people all over the globe to game devs and so on and so forth um we have two consensus clients I think four or five um uh execution layer clients op breth just got in very very excited about that um so yeah ultimately similarly for us a lot of the conversation comes down to what we are doing to have a forward-looking path that it will like Traverse the unknown unknowns because the reality is scaling is going to be a Journey for the next decade two decades for the rest of our lives and so for us it's about like it it's not just about one particular technical trajectory and like knocking off paths around one specific Milestone it's about building a community of people that will do it because it seems far more likely to us that a community of decentralized contributors around the globe will crack the secret sauce at various parts of the stack with the right amounts of modularity as opposed to any one road mapap or any one team being the thing that I can point at and Pitch to say this is the future of the entire industry that's absolutely fair and and very pragmatic it's optimistic this one's more real so it's pragmatic worry okay I mean I we're at pragma I'll give it to you what the optimistic we are proving thing proving real provs uh uh on chain I mean we have been uh online since uh since March we have a real PR it's everything is open source everything is available all the pr is verifiable um zkb m means uh ethereum virtual machine that means that uh it's fully compatible with ethereum deploying on our network is the same that deploying in ethereum uh just switching the the the network um the system is designed it to be a a moody roll up from day Zero uh today the lxr Y we we say that we have a constellation with one star still but one it's a constellation still already because it's uh it's prepared we will see uh many uh uh many rollups uh coming up uh to the to this uh to this um constellation very soon and there is a lot of core developer core developers and core teams that are working on that I mean here we see that Aron Gateway at working or KX I mean there is a lot of projects that are working on that and uh yeah I think this is uh if you see the the mix between Community liquidity people uh uh so projects uh committed to the space uh usability uh experience in running networks I think that polygon is the in my opinion my best decision but I think at least is one of the options to consider for sure today um as a developer does something change for me am I just able to assume that the same contract will work in all three platforms and there's like no Nuance here onto compatibility I know with with ZK VM pieces is is it 100% compatible do we have any cachas in in the op stack same thing with polygon I think this is a quick one but I just want to confirm the case of polygon is uh I would say for most of the application zero differences and if there are some differences we are also correcting them for example we are implementing the remaining precompiled smart contracts and the interesting thing is this is one of the differential things of other ZK rollups and is that you don't need to recompile you can use exactly the same tooling you don't need you are you don't live in a different space you live in the ethereum space it's it's just an ethereum the only thing that you are proving uh the I mean you are proving the evm you are proving the transactions uh the same transactions that you would do in ethereum without any friction it's all compatible baby we I mean you know speaking uh pragmatically we did almost a groundup rewrite of the system with not just evm compatibility in mind which we had from the Geto but evm equivalents in mind so literally you can go to what's the what's the difference in the what's the Nuance yeah the the Nuance is that it's not for us it's not just about uh having the ability for developers to have an extremely compatible API that works like ethereum it's about actually what is running behind the scenes being as close to ethereum as possible so you can go to op- ge. optimism. and see an explanation of every line of code that we change in gu and our entire goal in doing that was to make that list as small as possible and everything on that list had to be highly highly justifiable because like you can't do it without doing this I remember seeing that diff uh it's it's a fun one it's a fun one we took a slightly different approach we're focusing on the ultimate use case which is bringing the this millions of people and uh a really high transaction volume and we started with optimizing for the for the ultimate performance uh taking the so right now thek stack is compatible with ethereum like I don't think anyone is compatible to 100% I think we're least compatible but it's it's like from going from 99 to like 97% um uh so like basically most contracts most applications completely just work you just you change the deployment to to this this Target and it it works you don't care like that it's being compiled under the hood it's important that it's being compiled because we will be able to support the bite code compatible and eventually the M equivalence as well uh it will be hard if if you start with the VM equivalence in mind to then go back to Ultimate performance it's a lot easier the other way around to start with ultimate performance and then add an optional compatibility mode on top that is slightly less uh like you know less fast less less less throughput more cost but it gives you this uh Missing 2% compatibility and maybe just to clarify this is this is the this is all of you saying that there's no gacha here that you can't be under pressing the comptible it's just the the timing and the trade-offs and the prioritization correct yeah I no gotas I think as like oh there's no op that just cannot be ported over it's more of a shout out to the folks at evm diff that maintain a rigorous list of all the minor subtle differences between evm stuff um on all these chains evm diff.com I'm not sure Google evm great public good um Ben you mentioned uh super chain and uh you kind of brought that up early and all three of you have a a notion of kind of the aggregate layer that is kind of hosting and managing the the transaction flow of all these uh kind of rollups on on top how does the superan work uh what is it what's the good intuition about it and uh I have kind of similar question for the other two which is what's kind of the visualization here I need to think about when I have my own rollup on on cdk or or ZK stack and what's happening behind the scenes yeah good question so the super chain is an aligned network of op chains that are all running the same version of the op stock to create an aligned Collective that is not going to fragment um what does that mean without a bunch of Mumbo jumo Ben like being weird and excited and just a strange dude you know ultimately uh to prevent fragmentation a key tenant of the super chain is you run a bunch of chains right if you look at base it's EXA runs exactly the same as op main net but you run them all in a way which is credibly committed to sharing upgrades and to being on the same version of the stack so you don't introduce that fragmentation that for us is a prerequisite to doing the exciting Future Vision part of the super chain which is a high degree of interoperability between these systems you know we talked about this earlier I think it is going to be fundamental for quite a long time and and probably forever um that being able to have an aligned stack that is like an equivalent stack that is running between two chains is going to afford them um stronger interoperability uh capabilities then you are going to be able to do between other Chains It's like you know blue iMessage or whatever right like there's always going to be things where the messaging is improved when they're in the same ecosystem you we're defining inability as just being able to send messages and assets between two op stack chains or or is there what does interoperability stand for here yeah so interoperability definitely at the start or you just want L2 to L2 communication right you want to be able to send in much faster than a withdrawal from L2 to L1 you want to be able to send messages from one L2 to the other um there's more fancy stuff you can get into with which is the things like uh cross chain Flash loans and kind of atomic block building and that gets into you know further points down the road map a huge amount of the unlock is just being able to send messages and an asynchronous manner very quickly between op chains and the super chain yeah yeah maybe the the the main differences here is uh about the proving because it's not about transferring things from one to the other for us transferring means that before transfer something you need to be sure that something happened so you need to prove uh that something happen so for us the inter inability chain is more about uh uh this U uh sharing same proof or having um the so or or at least collecting the same proof the idea of the polygon Z kbm is have a single proof that prove all the chains and that Aggregates the proving of all uh that I mean that Aggregates the the the proving of all the chains so this aggregation layer it gives this interoperability between chains but in a reli manner so that's why we are so interested for example in generating fast proofs because the proof is what gives you finality and what gives you warrantee that uh uh one one phon goes to the other to the other chain so is the understanding here that like you effectively can get cross chain communication because you just haven't generated that proof so you can modify the state and then it's just a proof that solidifies or or or are these like just when the proof is generated when the proof is generated is when you know for sure that this uh that something happened I mean that that that that one one chain gets final in one roll up somehow so this is when these funds for example if you are transferring funds from one chain to the other chain you need to be sure that this chain is these Fones had already committed somehow so the way is to prove uh to get some sort of commitment and uh what better that having a proof that's the one that already uh I mean this Roll Up is is based on these proof in this commitments of the state so when you have the proof is when you have the warrantee that uh these funds are already committed so that you can use it in the next chain so here is how you coordinate this proof how you do this proof as fast as possible how this proof acts as a clock I mean if we have a single clock imagine that have a single proof that's happening every 30 seconds that means that every 30 seconds without any optimistic game uh we know that one transfer had can so that one Fone can be transferred from one chain to the other chain this just your window you can do basically anything back and forth and that's the the timer running out so the I to be honest all three visions are very similar both like as from the end user experience what we envision like it it's all clear like who will get there faster but uh what what we eventually want is basically the same from the technological perspective uh it's also basically the same so I'm I'm I'm just going to give you like maybe like stronger intuition you have this sever like many different l2s uh they share some common piece of protocol like in our case with J it's uh zero knowledge proof circuits that uh are are securing the uh the this the the state validity of of those chains they all settle on ethereum with a proof Singularity So eventually we get to one single proof that proves all of that and we verify that this an ethereum once you verify and and you commit the state like the root hashes to follow of these chains mer get merged together in one Merc tree and commit to ethereum so each chain can the state of any other chain can access any single storage slot of of any other chain and because they share this single circuit the the single core component which is exactly the same as what is securing myself when I get a message from any of these chains saying like maybe the message coming from from a system contract that manages The Treasure of this chain um saying like we committed some either for you we burned it on our chain and it's it's it's ready for you to to be claimed you can blindly trust it because it's it's just like trusting your own security system and and uh s your knowledge proofs have this magic property that you can aggregate arbitrary many proofs in one proof this gives us the unlimited scalability for ethereum overall uh no the the one thing which is very important is like all of these chains have to have a shared treasury logbox like a smart contract which holds all of the assets all of the native assets on ethereum for all of these chains cuz this is the only way to to like natively be able to fast transfer to use this what we call hyper Bridges I don't know what you guys call it uh use this ability to to like magically send assets by passing layer one and this is a bit this this is what makes it hard to interoperate between different ecosystems we can still do it but I mean we we have to go through the layer one we need to go down like we need to move it to the transfer you do the transfer in layer one that's why yes of course but this this gives you the overhead because layer one is going to be incredibly congested it's going to be like super expensive thing is going to be this settlement I mean this consolidation between uh constellations or between uh CH systems and I think they they should exist and and this is the idea of ethereum at the end and and uh we don't know how fast they can go and what's will be the cost but I think that this uh interoperable layer between constellations is uh is important and and and and and it would exist maybe we're a little bit far uh we are still building this this this constellation somehow but we clearly see that this is going to be important at some point yes but so the there the technical vision and like if you if you zoom out from the technical perspective what's really important for us at zyn is to make sure that those they the all of the chains remain free and Sovereign that you can deploy a chain permissionless not asking anyone for for like granting you the right to do this and you can exit anytime if if you want and you you are you rule your chain like your community whoever de place this chain is is key there we not don't we don't want to impose any rules any any like external um externalities like that is the core of our mission of building of promoting freedom for for the world with with blockchains so I me I'm seeing so much commonality in all of your answers and uh and it's expected uh because otherwise we will have a whole different set of problems if for Reinventing the wheel uh you kind of you already talked about stuff around just different proof strategies you got bridging contracts uh a lot of just kind of compatibility with existing mainnet ethereum developer tools all these things are are kind of being big part of this um I know all of you are trying to figure out what is working before you kind of scale things up but do you kind of expect some sort of standardization in all these things that effectively are shared uh so not everybody kind of has to come up with their own Nuance version whether it's verion contracts or or even just hey this is our deployment Pipeline and and how you maintain things and manage upgrades uh or do you kind of feel like it's not maybe the best use of kind of time or it may not yield the same outcome standardization would put in this situation any kind of General comments and thoughts on this it's a must I mean standardization uh we need other thing is the timing and and I mean we are I think we all of us we are uh enough busy to to to build the systems and to build the but we need to start talking about the standardization we already started to talk about some uh ways to stand right different options I mean it's not only the entrepreneur but there is things like uh I mean the for example the the the RPC interface I mean maybe there is we need to think about a common RPC interface uh for rollups so this simplifies the the creation of the applications but there is many many many other uh things to talk about to stand rights there are some groups that we fully support I mean that we start talking I mean this year rip uh initiative and uh yeah and and I think it's important that even the I mean uh of course in the in the place that we live that we have some these competitions that we have in the in some teams on that I think it's important that the technical teams that the people that really are building that we abstract I mean we we we we get a little bit of sight of all this what happened and we continue we continue to work together and to Sunrise together and to to share even going more than the stand right I mean to share the things I think we live in this open source Place have a lot of things to to to share to learn from the other teams and at the end uh I mean we as uh I mean the blockchain space if you see in the global space is is a very small thing so here we have I think we have the you have to work together yeah exactly so that's that's the thing and we need to we we can we cannot lose this in mind uh that we are in a very small uh world still resounding yes I mean I I think the trickier question is not um will there be standardization it's where will and where will not there be standardization I kind of spoke to that earlier like I think things like rpcs I'm like hu a huge advocate for a standard L2 evm definition that we can make ZK compatible right like we have folks building ZK proofs of the P stack now and it's working but there are things that we want that clearly the other folks on the stage want too that we should align on I think where it gets more tricky is finding that balance because at the same time that you want some core kernel of uh of equivalence and standardization and there's just so many clear obvious benefits to doing that the question is where do you draw that line because you also want to balance that with permissionless Innovation and people building incredible stuff so that's the you know those are the questions that keep me up at night not as how do we standard not will we standard but it's how do we standardize and what don't we standardize that's a tricky question to answer but at least we all speak to each other and there there are there are initiatives like the ethereum foundation has set up a group a working group to to discuss things uh um it's important that at least we come together and we say like we like one says like we want to do this do you guys want maybe others say no and we just go ahead and implement it on our own like this is how we've done it with Native account obstruction like we we discussed it like May for 4337 on ethereum set the basic standard but they could not like go over the line of actually embracing it in the protocol itself they could only Define the interfaces but changing ethereum's consensus would be like a really hard task we said like we're just launching from scratch so we can take this this choice right and others decided like what they want so I think the the balance is there at least speaking then de side um it's not a question per se but I think it'll be helpful for the audience to understand this thing Ben you just mentioned L2 evm uh just give the audience an overview of what that is and and what they could potentially look forward to in the future yeah sure so the um I mean what we're all looking forward to not just y'all in the crowd but all the developers everyone on every person's team on the stage right so you know the ethereum virtual machine is the instruction set that things like solidity and other languages um that run on ethereum compiled to it's B basically the rules of how smart contracts are interpreted and executed on on ethereum and that's you know exactly what we're talking about when we talk about things like evm compatibility um and L2 evm would be some sort of standardized extension to that evm that makes it friendly to the L2 solutions that we're working on um so examples of this are it's true that um when you're building uh these multi-chain Solutions these l2s you do have a notion of like deposits and withdrawals and maybe these notion of messages between these chains that's something that doesn't exist in the evf so you do need to introduce something to enable that similarly when the evm was created there were a lot of things that were not friendly to uh things like ZK and there were lots of choices that were made that were very logical at the time but they there was no way to predict the future that we're headed so an L2 evm would be basically a version of the evm that is upgraded to have the small changes that uh are required to enable L2 those fundamental ones and whatever things are going to get us over the line on things like performance in the L2 systems that's what it is I me comments on this for me this I agree that there could be should be some things that are some specific to tools that are interesting to be I think they should be as minimal as possible that's the thing I believe that the evbm at layer one should be oied as soon as possible I believe in notification I mean ethereum should be oied um sooner or later etherum was designed to be aifi at some point and uh maybe we need to finish the um uh me the sharding and serenity in the in the terms of the E map but uh once this happens eum should be yifi and the AVM should be yifi and then there is a space and here I think it's even for for comp space for competition between the rollups I mean extending the evm on or choosing what are the right uh PR compa SM contracts that you want to include uh extra in dbms or I think this is uh I mean this could be a good place to to to to to to compete but I think that having a base evbm basic evbm standard evbm that you know that if you are building following the evbm rules it's going to be compatible to any of the evm uh rollups or chains I think this is important and I think this is a value for the community I mean that I think that the if if the space if we if we have one way to define uh what's the theum ecosystem Maybe maybe the evm is what better defines uh what ethereum is so for me is having a standard base evbm and if you want aifi for me it's important and I know that's a little bit controversial but this but I think we we have a a similar analogy which is we kind of know what the JavaScript standard looks like and and people are effectively able to do this thing but you have all these enhancements like typescript or even react and other kind of promiles that give you features and effectively seems like you're making that same case um we have time for two more questions uh we're still actually early so if anybody has questions please line up there we're going to do two quick short questions if any but uh kind of my uh as we get people coming up uh my question to you um all of you is maybe it'll be good to get an update on how uh things are going uh Bas is obviously the the biggest one that most of us know here uh what are some popular apps aside from base that you've seen deployed or you're able to kind of talk about and uh how are these individual toolkits kind of doing I'm really excited about Zora as well I mean it's cheating that I can't talk about Bas incredible coinbase a Fortune 500 company launched a blocks based offering I think that is like worth celebrating but um Zora is another um one that I'm super excited about so Zora network is another um op chain that um launch a number of months ago and they've seen something like uh doubling in revenue and what they're doing is they're one of the examples that I talked about before where the sequencer revenue is really valuable so they're taking that sequencer revenue and using it to um subsidize artists and creators and people doing things on zor network so I'm really excited they've seen a large amount of growth just from doing that and they're giving it back to the people doing the good work so I'm very excited about that one Alex mayy so for for us we are in conversations with an large large number of Partners to deploy the zik zik specifically uh uh there are two that I want to highlight that that that are building ziky sticks right now they they announced it recently one is gravity uh which is a u institutional derivative uh Financial derivatives um um essentially like hybrid deck on uh focus on high performance that's something that that's not been done so far on blockchain because they require security to the ultimate degree because they're going to be dealing with you know like it's it's a um uh I think 13 trillion dollar uh Market uh you like security is is non-negotiable there um and the other one is um uh super mind um tradable tradable is backed by a $9 billion fund and they what they are doing is they are talking like they they are bringing the private Equity Market on chain with CK stack and this is a $2.7 trillion do market like this is this is really big uh for bringing you like making um things that were like bringing people that were not previously Crypt native on blockchain so where like you know bringing some vanity projects that that just have big names but not really do anything is not what we're focusing on um we want to see real adoption with like a lot of money and a lot of real users and with um ultimate web2 ux with Native account sections things like this and lastly Jordy yeah I mean I'm more in the ctech in the more so I'm not following as much the the applications I think that the Zora is one a good example of of one of those applications that I think are good uh say some I mean maybe um some uh defy applications like okx I think is doing I thinkx being another massive exchange uh going in that but I think that there are for me the interesting thing of this is ility is applications that have not been uh had the chance to to to come up but the fact that the prices will go low that the capacity of this change will happen that will start to to to happen for examp I'm very excited for example for voting applications or I'm uh very excited for example for um some uh let say um all the gamings andf I mean here this this yeah or even even games itself I mean it's not only the nft sport I mean the theames normal games and chain that will happen so I think this here is a huge uh longtail a lot of applications that maybe it makes no sense to build a blockchain application right now but once the prices get um significantly lower than this uh will will will explode uh uh on the space and very excited for see how this will will happen in the in the up coming months coming months awesome all right we'll do our one question from the audience hi um I was just wondering to what extent do you guys think about um application specific interoperability so like say uh if you believe the future has like one execution environment for like the lending protocol and like another one for the exchange um do you think about the interoperability between uh operations on those two execution environments or do you just more care about um creating like the atomic cross chain uh small contract execution no we we are thinking in transferring value between the chains of course we always think in in the idea of tokens because this is what abstracts better the value non non funable tokens unable tokens if you want but um I mean for example the right to vote or the right to do something I mean this is something that maybe could be expressed as an nft Maybe but this is um something that's valuable that need to be transferred to one side to the other so in the case for example of the x or y bridge there is one more generic thing that's a kind of a message that you can pass from one thing to the other but a message that can be called only from one smart contract so actually in this message even if we call it message but actually it can be real value that can be transferred for that so if you check at the I mean at the apis of the bridges I would expect that all the bridges more or less they have this functionality but at this in the XEL y bridge we have this concept of uh message and even the consumption of this message too you can use it or not uh where you can transfer any value between uh chains and if you want between applications uh uh interchange so for the developer from the developer perspective this is absolutely open uh you can do that and uh um you can when you hear message in the bridge um context you may think some sort of value from some application specific that that happens to there so it's much much much more it's much much much more flexible than a single rc20 transfer or a single nft transfer yeah I mean I think that it is a very deep very exciting question that I I definitely personally and a lot of folks on the team spend a lot of time thinking one way to frame this question is what will be the application topology of the super chain or hyper chain or constellation right and I think there's a lot of ways that this could wind up going like one model you can imagine is that there's a bunch of specific applications and each of those have their own sort of substate you know these things are all connected into one larger group so is it one app specific chain or is it a subdomain within the larger thing right that's one question so it could be application specific on the other hand you could have things that are more user specific so maybe it's the case that you know you know for example coinbase base will have a bunch of the user State stored for coinbase with the coinbase users on base um maybe we'll have a mix maybe we'll have Geographic um distribution like the endgame of a lot of um like the early ethereum Research into scalability was actually chains local to users where users were responsible for managing their own state so um the question is a good one I think surely what will start to emerge at least in the early days is um a segmentation by applications where it ends I think is um going to be even more complex and probably a combination of all those things just talked about I I will only add I think those were exis of answers but I I will only focus on the uh shared bridging aspect because that's the only thing that could give you like um synchronicity uh I think otherwise you still have some synchronous component like you and for shared sequencing to happen you would need the sequencers of both chains to be essentially owned or managed by a single entity and so I don't think it it can extend to all the chains in the ecosystem because we if you want permission is chains and like different chains will have different models of sequencing some of them will be centralized because they need ultra low latency some of them will be maximumly decentralized some of them will will have some tradeoffs to to to have good latency but maybe not so many uh parties um and like all of them cannot adopt the same model one size fit all awesome well thank you so much for that question and Alex Ben Jordy appreciate the time and and this amazing conversation thank you