BBW22 - Day 1 - Building a Global Blockchain Hub

[Music] all right thank you guys so much for joining and it's so great to meet you guys like Ian said my name is Anissa gardizi and I'm a tech reporter at the Boston Globe so we're going to start off today's week um by talking about building a Global blockchain Hub but before we do that I thought we could start with some introduction so Cody do you want to go first oh sure beyond what Ian said all right uh um let me just give a couple framework moments I'm a global person I've lived all over the world born in Japan I've been to 13 schools so I'm a very global perspective on everything and um I my background is in general management strategy mostly the marketing side of business Biz Dev I've worked on startups I worked in larger organizations and so really culminating in becoming a managing director is sort of the thing that I led me there was just my interest in working with people I love working with Founders it's my personal passion helping them succeed and so you know anything else you can see on LinkedIn awesome I'm a total opposite in terms of global I've pretty much spent my entire academic and professional career based in Boston as a hub um but I've had some yeah it's been great and and excited to see this energy and a bunch of people coming together around this space um but I actually went to school at Bentley University in Waltham studying Finance and Accounting and didn't do a technical pivot until I joined State Street in 2015 within their technology audit function and I had a chance after about a year and a half to build out an emerging Technologies team within the it audit function that looked at everything from public clouds robotics to machine learning and Ai and then obviously a lot of work on the blockchain side as well unfortunately that blockchain work catered more towards permission to blockchains and I had already drank the Kool-Aid of public blockchains and crypto and so in 2018 as Ian mentioned I left stage Street to join KPMG based out of Boston but running a global advisory practice the majority of our resources are basically the U.S but we had folks in India as well that were supporting us on the tech side and that was a great experience and I got to see a lot of major players in Boston emerge over that time but frankly since then I've been more focused on outside of Boston and on a global level so I'm excited to be back in the community and look forward to engaging with you guys and sharing perspectives from The Venture side that I now sit on thank you South um so as he mentioned John O'Keefe co-founder of cubic Labs we've been working on this now for three years we initially had the idea that we wanted to could we create a thousand tech jobs in the next five to ten years and we picked ultimately an emerging technology because we felt that is where people don't have a community that is where we can bring people together and kind of use our skill sets to um bring everyone to the table and and execute on that um I have a background in financial services and non-profit management I've lived in Boston for eight years the last two years I actually live in Portland Maine so I work I work down here a couple days a week and work from home Monday and Fridays and you know I've also done door-to-door sales I've managed nightclubs and I am no longer in Corporate America because I absolutely cannot do what I'm told and this uh I find that working with the entrepreneurs in our space is very exciting and it's what I love to do so happy to be here today and thank you for coming so John I want to start with you last year cubic Labs put out a white very helpful in understanding what you guys are trying to do in building an ecosystem here um but what did you find after doing that white paper and and why does that convince you that that you can build a blockchain hub here so we did a white paper on blockchain Talent leaving Massachusetts completely disproportional to the amount it was creating and it doveted into a couple of things we were working on at the time we had testified to the house committee on AI and cyber security about the need to invest in these emerging Technologies and particularly um blockchain because that's what we were interested in and we knew that the state was very interested in that um from a talent perspective then we knew we were leaking talent but we needed to get some data behind that so we partnered with a group called identics they got some data for us and we found out that like there was a lot of States we grafted out that were seen to be more friendly to digital natives to people in that space however we also knew that like you know for example um Talent might move to Florida just just to pick one um because there's a complete lack of you know it's a good sandbox for for entrepreneurs there's not a bunch of Regulation there but we also knew like fintech in the valley that when it comes to mainstream adoption Massachusetts is still you know ideally situated to take advantage of that and to encourage mainstream adoption up here like that fintech in the valley and we ultimately said you know what we haven't missed Mr bought on this we just need to encourage the um the proper investment and the proper support and get the proper stakeholders around the table and really get mass since it's moving and that actually culminated in us getting uh a two million dollar Grant from the states a couple of months back to build a first of a Kind public-private blockchain r d facility here in Massachusetts and headquartered in Quincy and so do you have a perspective on that um sort of having that Global Focus what role Massachusetts could play in in being a hub for blockchain talent and companies yeah it's it's really interesting even just hearing you speak John about kind of the mission and vision of what you guys are building um and IT addresses kind of a phenomenon that I experienced myself in my friend groups because a lot of the early folks that I built friendships with from the crypto space ended up migrating from Boston down to Miami or to Puerto Rico or to Portugal largely on a you know just from a regulatory perspective and tax perspective a lot more clarity um and I think in certain circumstances like Miami very forward marketing PR engagement from leadership which it seems like you guys are rallying here and that's super exciting um but I think yeah firsthand I've definitely seen somewhat of a talent flight from people who were very early into this space and I think there's opportunity to reverse that curve this being a starting you know point in that Journey um but it's unfortunate because the outcomes of that are the businesses that are built around them migrating as well um so whether it's a private Equity Group or um you know a company that's building a startup and seeking Clarity at a state level and engagement with kind of the policy side um so I think there's huge opportunity based on the history of Boston um the academic presence that we have here and frankly the production of human capital that's already played out coming out of the city which has been remarkable on a relative basis so and why is your firm based in Boston um so my partners Tom Sarris and Bettina Warburg um grew up in the Greater Boston area they were in the Silicon Valley space for a decade and saw kind of the talent um migrate out of Silicon Valley in the 2015-17 time frame and so they moved home to be around family I was already based in Boston as well and we had started to build a relationship so when I moved after next steps it made sense to build kind of the investment advisor practice here and so we're proudly in the Greater Boston area and excited to be supporting this this initiative so cardi you're running the new Tech Stars Boston crypto accelerator so do you want to talk about that and how it's been going so far I know applications are open so yeah how many people are replying it's very new so um but one of the reasons why we did pick Boston um was because of our gram partnership but I can talk about that more in detail but we did see the opportunity with the ecosystem here that we could really build an incredible accelerator not necessarily for all boston-based companies but global companies but introduce them to Boston as part of the process so that was a huge opportunity but given that algrand is founded here and there are other so many mentors and and investors and others in the ecosystem we thought this was a great place to be so right now the apps are open but our accelerator runs from January to April and it will be hybrid in true blockchain fashion so we'll have the kickoff here in Boston we'll have the ending events here in Boston and in between there'll be a component of virtual and travel and you know to that note I will say having worked in ecosystem development before I'm a subscriber to the ecosystem Way by Brad Feld and Ian Hathaway you need so many different nodes and I think you know cubic's a great example of setting up that infrastructure node and and the place mode and and place for Founders to develop but you really need all of them to lean in and so the more you can do to bring that ecosystem together the better and that is a role that Tech starts place finding events finding meaning to bring Founders and investors and mentors and everyone else in the ecosystem together crypto what is missing or why why isn't Boston right now considered you know the Hub that some other cities are you know and this is my tertiary glance but we need more Founders we need way more Founders and so if we can help in that way Founders who are thinking big Founders who are Risk Takers Founders who want to lean in um I also am not a US versus them person so I think you know taking the attitude of yes let's build something amazing here but there are other hubs out there so let's figure out how do we get noticed in those hubs how is their cross-pollination I mean blockchains are now look you know looking at greater interoperability we should have hubs that are interoperating with each other because they're different different areas that are serviced in each Hub I mean maybe I can just add on yeah of course what wasn't here two to three years ago in my experience was this event and these organizations which play a critical critical role in Bridging the Gap which between the policy side and policy makers and the private sector and then I think another thing that that really comes together is the relationship that you've described with a layer one blockchain right if we think about this from two ends of the spectrum one is the policy side the other is the foundation of the technology we're building on and there's these huge foundations that are very well capitalized that are designed to drive the ecosystem development on top of their networks and so Partnerships like that will allow for capital investment to back programs that actually seed early stage entrepreneurs coming out of the private sector and when that's married with work like what you're doing on on the cubic side on the policy front um really really cool things can happen so I think the framework that's being put in place here really can drive progress and kind of the vision that that Ian was describing and John what are you guys doing on the policy front or what role does policy play in in your mission so we um I guess to the point of all the different stakeholders we made a decision early on that we're going to try and give value for us as opposed to kind of take so we set up a tax exam structure and we were very lucky that one of our partners Fox Rock properties actually gave us the premises to um to use for our incubator for a number of years and what we did with that is we take those savings and we push them down to the entrepreneurs see so the idea being is that instead of spending you know thousands of dollars on overhead and um and and rent and all that stuff they're really spending the funds and the places that are needed strategic hires product development and and so that's that's one aspect of like you know as a tax exempt organization we are well situated to give first and ultimately what that means is that there's no angle you know if you you know if you deal with the VC firms or pick pick any industry everyone's got their own specific angle and what we understand is everyone has a return on investment what is that return on investment they wish to seek and can we provide that and to that point one of those stakeholders is the legislature um now my colleague Ian is a little more up to date on the political side but what we have started to notice is that they're starting to reach out to us saying hey you know what do you guys think about this um do you have any research on XYZ and all we're doing at the moment instead of pushing specific policy it's just educating so this is what we think this is what we're seeing um one of the areas anecdotally I can specif I specifically think there's an issue is that a lot of the way public policy is written at the moment is not set up for kind of next-gen Technologies I see that in a number of places we could talk about it you know and we've done some recent Grant work and like how do you explain that you know you know the accountant say well this funding he got has to be for Capital expenditures there isn't a word for some of the stuff we're doing we don't even know where to start to go spend this money because it's for next it's for next-gen Technologies and infrastructure Now isn't on the ground it's in the air so we're kind of waiting up for kind of the way things are written to catch up with the way things are and then we're just trying to give as much education as we can from what we're seeing to legislators when we do reach out but we are seeing an increase in it and then we anticipate an increase in it going forward and being even more involved in in what comes up and so do you have a perspective on what role policy makers play and whether a city or a state will emerge as as a leader in a specific in a specific space I think it starts it so absolutely but I think it starts with education um and it's a very very tall order the education scope that we talk about here is pretty vast because the institutions and systems in society that will be impacted the most by this technology are inherently the most complex it's Financial Services it's governments it's large um very complex businesses or or organizations and so generally speaking there's a level of Competency or aptitude for specific knowledge domains that traverses a bunch of areas and and so when we talk about web3 and we talk about D5 for example um now we're talking about this idea of Primitives being embedded across every industry segment and so everything is inherently financial and how do we contemplate that from a policy side when traditionally Financial Services was Ring fenced inside of an industry segment that was regulated by the SEC and cftc and other Regulators um and so I think the biggest step forward is just education and engagement um I love hearing that they're they're coming to you now um and I think that's super important to have the demand side there and then the last piece is really tone at the top like it it comes down to actually walking and driving momentum with the positions of of officials that have the ability to do that I think what Miami has done on in some regards has been extremely Progressive sometimes moved too fast and maybe could have done things more thoughtfully but it's just a demonstration of what can happen when tone and messaging come from the very top and Cody I wanted to ask you about um decentralization I mean I've been asking a lot of people whether Boston or Massachusetts will emerge as a blockchain hub and one thing people ask is if everything's decentralized why would there need to be a centralized Hub or a hub in one specific location in general so I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that yeah well I think people need to think about um both the you know online in real life and also what's going on that's all remote and decentralized so it's really around I would say Talent around who you're partnering with who you want to see in a real life way but I think it's the support structure because entities yes you can be a hundred percent decentralized every single organization out there is dealing with it it's not just a blockchain issue um but really having a location that is a really a supportive location I think is probably you know the argument that you can make that both for blockchain and not um but some of the things that you're talking about with regard to regulatory really great business um you know business friendly blockchain friendly Dow friendly I mean anything that is friendly for anyone building on blockchain if that's here then this is where you want your headquarters to be and it sounds like Austin and Massachusetts are nailing it so and thoughtfully not like ad hoc going too quickly so we may see some migration from some of the failed attempts um if it's done really well and one thing I think is worth taking into account is you know we're dealing with like whether it's you know the government or the state with you know taxpayer funds like ultimately you know we've had quite a bit of support from from the state if in the municipality but even though it's coming from them there's some person in a room somewhere that when all the paperwork is in makes a decision that says we're going we're going to fund this and it's much easier to fund something that's like that's that's tried and tested but there there are people sitting in for certain places that say no no no like to compete we have to get in new Industries and to do that we have to fund things that we may not know a huge month we know we may not know a huge amount to boss but we think this is the future so we're going to take a risk on that and I think in Massachusetts uh and even in our local municipality here in Quincy we've been exceptionally lucky to have people that when all is said and done they said we're going to take a shot on this so I think having those people in in the legislature or in the local municipality are in the state faith that say we have to be brave to move forward but we're going to do it because otherwise we're just stagnating and and we're looking to have them here in Massachusetts and Sal right now do you do you see Boston in Massachusetts as as a blockchain friendly place are there certain things you think need to happen um it's a good question and I think some of it's within the control and some of it's outside the control so the the biggest like impact I think will probably be through progression of state level perspectives on the treatment of things like Dows decentralized autonomous organizations d-a-o where like in the case of Wyoming there's been legislation advance that think about this new business model architecture and apply a regulatory framework around that and in doing so they give Founders certainty that if they go and launch their project in Cheyenne and fall under the Wyoming regulatory framework that they can permissively do the things they they're intending to do without taking on personal regulatory risk which is often a Founder's concern that that drives a decision model of where they build the business um so some of that's at the state level but then then part of this is the things that we've been talking about here building a community recognizing the human capital talent that has already been incubated and built in the city and frankly the pipelines that will come down the road just given the academic presence that we have in Boston so you know there's some things that I think we can all work on together and there's some things that we are all residents of the state and have the ability to vote and should exercise that right it's on the role the universities play here locally in developing this talent and working with groups like you like yours um so I have quite a amount to say on the subject but I'm going to keep a very brief um I think as a whole the university model needs to be changed um in this space specifically what I see is a lot of people that are theoretically very strong but they can't build anything and ultimately you know I think that while we focused on a cubic Labs is you know there's a lot of stuff going on here a lot of different a lot of different talk about different things a lot of theoretical knowledge let's focus on building something all the time let's bring Founders in that are building consistently and as as that regards to the the Educational Systems I see the same thing very theoretically heavy but are these students coming out and are they coming out and building something and then you take it a step further than you realize the idea of University itself isn't very decentralized it's not in with the Zeitgeist of kind of blockchain and decentralization so you know what I would love to see is a couple of curriculum based on building but not just that you know we've a bunch of issues in the country of wealth inequality where you can really solve that as an emerging technology or we could have kids do six to eight month curriculums and come out with a hundred grand a year jobs after bash and not be kind of crippled with with college debt which this you know that money should be for when they build their housing so I really think in these emerging Tech Industries you know the educational and academic institutions so take a step back and say let's do something different this is a new trade school of the future but it's not carpentry or or or Plumbing it is actually coding blockchain work and and building those type of things so I'm excited to see what comes in the space but I don't think they could do a lot more and Curry what are some of the pillars of ecosystem building um that you sort of look for um in in different hubs around the country different things that sort of need to come together for an ecosystem to be thriving well I I'll say for setting up Tech Stars here which is really even though techstars Boston exists heading up setting up crypto is a whole different piece we're looking for investors so who's interested in the founders who are going to be building things and so reaching out to those and I'm reaching out to investors across the globe and introducing them to Boston I'm also looking for mentors people and again across the globe people who know a lot about infrastructure people who know about Community they know about growth building and blockchain it's a whole different I mean you know in in a regular business program or any regular Tech stores accelerator you might have Financial modeling well that looks very different in blockchain you might have a session on you know traditional marketing that looks quite different so reaching out and then setting up all of the coaching and learning that we're going to do and be able to wrap the found wrap around the founders um also just you know Founders who are interested so one of the things we do in establishing a location with an accelerator so we introduce them to the right hub they need to be in so we are asking Founders from across the globe to move here for the in-person portions of our program and with that it's not just about sitting in a co-working space it's about getting out around the community we might have events at one place we might have events you know down here we might have events over at Al Grant we will have events over algorand but throughout the community and so really integrating them and making them feel like oh this could really be a home for me long term not I I always hesitate to say that because every no one's permanent anymore it feels like everyone's moving around but that they would feel welcome in Boston no matter what are you getting a sense for how people feel about moving to Boston or is it too early oh I'm sure anyone who is applying to the accelerator is excited to be here to be part of the accelerator so um that's not an issue and and personal moves I have no idea what people are interested in tell you this I spent two years here in business school I love Boston and for whatever reason my career took me elsewhere and it is I've loved staying in touch with Boston I have so many friends here so many people in my network who are still here I love coming back and I'm really excited to be here for this accelerator and I've talked to Ian a little bit about the culture wars in blockchain um you know different people want to live in different places for different reasons and Sala was wondering if you had any thoughts on whether um there is a blockchain culture here is this somewhere that people want to build versus you know the other hubs that we mentioned earlier um a good question I I think it's it's kind of interesting in that a lot of what's Driven actual blockchain hubs is this regulatory Clarity piece and the tax side so Lisbon over the past two years has become this massive development Hub inside of Portugal in a very very tax-friendly environment now they're walking that back under EU pressure to potentially Advance more aggressive tax positions on crypto that really is the driving factor of where Founders ultimately reside because a lot of their wealth creation and in terms of economic interactions happen in crypto and so there's material implications to one treatment versus another specifically on staking as an example um and so the tax environment I think is like the primary driver unfortunately and that's a piece that again is like outside of generally outside of control um but on a general basis there has been a massive presence in Boston from the moment that Fidelity launched Fidelity digital assets right that put institutionalization of crypto on the map in every bank across the entire entire world um and that happened in Boston right one of the largest institutional data companies that was backed by Fidelity coin metrics is still headquartered in Boston there's L1 blockchains that are based here there's um incredible like it's just there really is a large community and I think the components that we're talking about with public private sector and incubators and collaboration really were the pieces that were absent so hopefully some of this culture can really just rise out of people coming together around events like this John is that why you're hoping for events like this um you know and bringing people together what sort of your vision for what Boston blockchain week will be this week and we'll be in the future so we see that there's a bunch there's a lot of smaller kind of events you know go on during the fall and we really feel that like they should all come Under One Roof um not not necessarily run by cubic Labs but just that's you know I look at something like South by Southwest can we do a North by Northeast can we have an iconic Tech event on the East Coast that is a go-to with 10 15 20 000 people every year that's where we would like to go with something like this um and ultimately bring everyone into the table um this is year one you know we we have it all figured out there's a truck behind me as we speak that's too loud we had no electricity at seven o'clock yesterday evening you know but we also know there is enough here to build on and we see the interest and we know that next year we can double it in size we can do it again and ultimately it's not about cubic Labs it's can we plug in our partners you know we would love to see next year who old days built on the blockchain aspect of gaming on the regulatory aspect and so we have big plans for this moving forward and we would just you know again it doesn't happen without the sponsors on the one hand the local municipality and the state and the other and the founders and attendees and so we just urge them keep on coming and keep interested and we see where we go work on the education side of things making sure people understand what you're doing what this new industry is how has something going is it easier or harder um and you know depending on the market I think it's hard I think it's hard to explain to someone if you turn around tomorrow and gotten like you know you heard the mayor just say he doesn't understand that's probably 90 to people um you know most people I we we specifically pick blockchain and not let's say a subset like crypto because blockchain is a tool it's very utilitarian it can support a lot of other um a lot of other types of business and ultimately though it's like someone is saying to someone explains me how your MasterCard works it doesn't really matter like it just works it just supports what you're doing and in that case I've kind of gone away from trying to explain it and say this is what this will do for you you know and the other side of it too is that someone said to me recently and they were so spot on with the dish it doesn't matter what the underlying technology is if you don't have a good business if the you know that's just the underlying technology is your business sound is it um commercially viable is it doesn't make sense there are so many more things that go into it the team the ability to scale it up so we've kind of we've kind of looked at it more like yeah blockchain's awesome but it still has to support a business that has to stand up in its own right and be a good business idea so in fact it actually adds a level of actually sometimes because now you just not only just have a great business but you got a new technology underneath it that not everyone understands and you got to make sure you understand and have the tech team that can take it and run with it as it scales I hope that made sense um yeah no I think you're right A lot of people um like still think you know as blockchain uh just looking for a problem that it can solve um so I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that um like how do you sort of keep the bigger picture um in Your Vision as you're thinking about what it is today versus what you're hoping it's going to be in a few years yeah it's a really really big question just because of kind of my belief system around the technology and I was explaining this to a gentleman I think Paul as I was waiting to come into this event um but part of the reason I was so drawn to blockchain technology holistically was because the applications are so diverse you're effectively Reinventing a inventing a new layer of Internet architectures that enable all sorts of new interesting things and so you know for me it's like if the wave of technology and things that are happening now are focused on building out this core infrastructure then the opportunities to align to things that I'm very passionate about environmental Sciences climate change um you know more fair Financial Services um a lot of those things are outcomes that can be achieved through the development of the right types of infrastructure and so um I think that's where I've kind of aligned to the space and just trying to push forward great Founders and entrepreneurs and supporting them and growing um but also driving you know building the foundation from which a lot of these things that I experienced as broken can change let's add on I mean we sit here comfortably in Boston but two-thirds of the world they don't operate through banks they um they don't have accessibility to a lot of what the rest of the world does I heard a story from a friend about a year and a half ago who said these Filipino descent and he said his grandmother was using Bitcoin to buy groceries and when he said that I said okay this is not going away this is not hype there's obviously we've heard you hear about all the the bad things that happen out there but there's a real use to the underlying structure here and I would say that one of the big one of the themes I'm hearing and one of the things we're looking for too is a little bit of how can we make it easier I think you were saying you know for the entry of someone who's not I think there's something like 83 million wallets out there I saw the stats somewhere I can't verify it but you know that's a very a small number and why should Wallet be a blocker for anyone to utilize services on blockchain it just doesn't make sense to me and so there's this concept of web 2.5 which might be like a nice friendly entry point where you don't need to see necessarily what's going on in the back end there are some people who are very concerned with like full anonymity and you know there are Bad actors in that area they're also good actors in that area too but do you need to have full anonymity to still own your data and be protected as a citizen so there are a lot of philosophical questions out there too to be answered but if we're going to allow more people accessibility we need to be able to make it easier to participate yeah going off of that did you want to talk a little bit about what cubic Labs is trying to do with Quincy Community College in terms of working with them on on education yeah I touched it and we're a little early in the in the discussions but again the idea being is like hey you know what we can make a sincere impact here by encouraging the adoption of new technology and how can we create a curriculum you know and how can we support a curriculum where colleges maybe traditionally had those traditional kind of nursing degrees and those those kind of traditional degrees how can we help them do an emerging technology degree and that we would help you know you know bring in the experts to support to support the teaching of it and help them build stuff and walk out where you have a future where suddenly I don't have two or 200 Grand in college debt but I you know I pay Community College fees and um and ultimately I am set up to get a good start and in that way in that in that respect that's why emerging Technologies are awesome because the the system isn't set up yet so that's why like there's no like I won't say it's rig but there's no like going into something and it's oh this is the path for me there's no path no one knows which way this is going to go no one knows what particular aspects of this emerging technology are going to be very successful so everyone's at Ground Zero and I think that's a great spot for our students to come in and get start off in a new career where they can make substantial wage um and um and compete are we out of time or do we have time for more questions okay yeah cardi I know we were talking this morning about sort of the events that are going on this week and we were talking about the women in blockchain event tonight so I wanted to talk to you a little bit about how important it is to bring um more diversity into the space as these different hubs are are forming right now thanks for bringing that up so one of the things that we wanted to get the message out there very widely was we want to have as many people as possible look at per at building something in blockchain and so we're really really careful to keep the message very wide and then do some outbound reach outs to organizations to ensure that different Founders people who maybe aren't necessarily skilled on the coding side but maybe they understand a lot about a certain Market that has the need for this technology we're bringing them into the into the funnel and we're meeting with as many people as we can so we're actually we're bringing on someone part-time right now to help us get through just the the applications that are coming through so yeah I want that funnel to be as wide open as possible and if you guys have anything else to add before we wrap up this panel I mean maybe just a reflection of a couple points that I've already made but like I extremely appreciate the work that went on to bring this group together excited for the remainder of panels and discussions and I think the lineup that you've been able to bring together has been awesome so huge hats off to both of you and the team behind this and I'm excited and I hope this is truly seeds to a growth pattern that leads to a lot of the community coming together because it's been very fragmented and disparate and I think there's now something that we can build around I know for one I'm excited to be a part of it to engage with you all in whatever projects You're Building or if your peers in the buy side and investing in companies or if you're working at Enterprises that are contemplating crypto strategies um so looking forward to everything that comes out of this but appreciate appreciate the space and and thank you for having me great uh thank you Sal um yeah we have you know nice two-day two three days of content uh some very human stories big focus on startups um and I think what it takes to grow communities like this in emerging Tech is just sheer bloody mindedness so like Hey we're going to do that and we'll figure out how we do it you know down the road and I think everyone in this space you're here today is kind of a subset of that like they're all working on individual things but we're part of this greater ecosystem or helping one another out so just encourage after the conference and move them forward if there's anyone you'd like to chat to or follow up with you know please do so and you thank you very much for for coming and enjoy the next two days yeah thank you yeah thank you [Applause] [Music]