The Future of Aave Grant's DAO

[Music] [Applause] [Music] the next talk is going to be about covering the future of other grand style so uh we have shreyas who is going to be talking about all the things that are happening in the avigrant security system and how everything is set up so without further ado let's welcome andreas [Music] hey everyone um can everyone hear me well everything is great all right i'm just going to share my screen um let me know if you can see this process awesome um so yeah really excited to be here i think um i i first i started my full-time uh you know crypto journey actually with a an eighth global um hackathon um building something on llama so it's you know it's really cool to to come back and speak here and um i think uh you know we've seen this with rv grants too but there's an amazing influx of of uh developers and talent here and it's a really amazing onboarding experience for someone into into web3 so um yeah you know so to be here um i'm the program lead for hobby grand style and i also am the founder of llama which helps uh dowse and defaultify protocols manage their treasury so um one thing i thought would be interesting to start with is something that um uh influenced my thinking of crypto protocols and and ecosystems um and this was a a post by um uh lakshman shankar from the ethereum foundation where you know he he compared um uh crypto ecosystems to uh natural ecosystems and and he was talking about how you know bio biodiversity is is um just as important in in crypto ecosystems as it is in in natural ecosystems and that um you know the the reason why ethereum as an ecosystem is kept alive is because of this constant influx of uh new developers and and builders in this platform and and the you know when that dies and when the the sort of genetic variation of the ecosystem is stopped um ethereum will die and i i think um of other protocols similarly where ecosystem development is sort of at the heart of um really what makes a a protocol in the community thrive and um any custom development includes uh sort of this yeah this this community that's building the protocol uh and and all these other like integrations and and support and culture and and a bunch of other things around the protocol um so you know that that's influenced i think um how i've thought about the the the mission at rv grants and how we approach it which is you know building this thriving ecosystem of contributors building on rv and um we you know are a team of um niner viewers plus uh you know two to three other um uh folks on staff and we basically provide projects uh it grants to projects and um uh and ideas and community events that benefit the rv system and we're quite open-minded to what that could be we have a list of ifps on on our site but um you know we we're very open to people coming up with with creative ways that they can um uh have benefited the ecosystem and the broader uh sort of crypto ecosystem because um anything built you know built far on on rv is is open source and can really like you know push the development of the space um generally um so summary of the program we launched in um may 2021 uh and uh the it got overwhelming community support um you know i i was on the other planet like it's quite clear that the you know grants programs are uh you know really a critical piece of what to do with it with the dow uh with especially after a certain size and um it's probably one of the most obvious use cases of what to what to spend um the treasury money on when you have hundreds of millions of dollars in assets you want to you want to spend on um you know some way to grow and and maintain the protocol um and build this ecosystem of contributors doing that um so we've the plan is to have a pilot program of two quarters that ends in on november 10th um 2021 uh the budget that governance has has given us is a million dollars a quarter and the hope is to expand their budget um after we you know go back to governance with uh the work we've done so far um i think uh you know with with it where the projects were funded there's definitely a case for um you know a larger budget especially if we need to support i think um some of the events and some of the um sort of sponsorship uh type work which right now is being done by uh the ave company um so yeah this is so you know look forward to that over the next few months um i uh our group right now is is um you know nine reviewers uh two two staff members one um uh bill who's uh interesting like he actually posted threads uh when uh i did the initial community calls he he would post threads on um on these community cards and really useful um threads and what um what happened in the community called in a summary of of uh key activities in avi and and so i just reached out to him saying uh you know if he'd be interested in being a sort of contender he didn't stand a terrific job in in terms of um you know sort of having an avi grandstand newsletter and sort of you know growing the the the twitter community engagement beyond um beyond just what we had originally into you know actually hosting community calls and and um in twitter spaces with grantees and things like that and then we also have uh neil schaff who who works on grant ops and ways to actually make the process much more efficient um in terms of like the review speed as well as um you know the support to grantees after um and then uh we have a lot of help with the you know design of the of the pops um we redesigned uh the logo because we you know we wanted a different branding from avi but something that was related and so we actually used this team of ecosystem development to come up with that and then yeah she's she's done a great job with that stuff um so the progress so far is about 37 grand so this uh with the it's 29 until yesterday where we just approved a set of uh eight more that should come out soon um and um and you know a little over one million dollars worth of grant awards all this has not been distributed yet because um it's you know these grants come in um uh are milestone based and so it's usually an initial upfront payment and then a payment after a completion of one or two milestones if it's a really small grant um you know say you know below five thousand dollars in some cases we just make make the payment up front but um if it's uh if it's a grand uh you know say you know anything from uh 20 to 50 60k which is which is common um it's usually multiple milestones and if it's a larger grant we have a few over eighty thousand dollars then it's um it's it's typically over three payments in initial payment uh one milestone and then the final payment um and and we typically avoided grants um below 100k um and so anything between 100 and 500k uh we can technically approve according to our initial sort of governance proposal but it would um we would like to get community sentiment on on whether we should approve it or not and so we'll we'll put up a snapshot board get get community sentiment we actually did this for the d5 uh app that um there was this rv mobile app that was going to be open sourced and built on the rv repo we went to the community and asked you know uh basically if it makes sense funding this i think it was about a 98 000 grant and um the community you know overwhelmingly supported this so so we went ahead with it um but yeah like you know the the idea is to um pretty much support like any projects that really benefit the the rv custom the the focus is on um yeah things that are uh you know can show some you know a realistic are possible to actually do and can show some um you know some positive outcome for um either our users or other governance or um or you know just like processes for the down um so yeah here are just a few examples of projects that have like actually shipped and launched and done well like on the left side you have flip side crypto which um you know has has built some cool analytics and building you know they have this community enabled analytics system that um i think is really um you know help with with improving uh the sort of data accessibility for things that happen on rv um we have symphony finance that um uh you know provides like yield on on limit orders and and uses our way to do that um rabbit hole had some cool tasks um rewards for completion of tasks actually on polygon i think it was completed within a few hours or something like that and so it was cool to see the demand for something like that um and on the right side we have gelato network that basically built a um you know a really neat solution for um to prevent um our users from getting to these really costly liquidations where they would uh you know they'd have something unique on the smart contract side to adjust positions uh to prevent those liquidations which yeah a huge value add for um uh for our users so yeah these are a few examples like one of the things um that we've been doing besides just the grant amount is is actually supporting projects beyond uh beyond just the dollar amount so like you know in some cases if a project needs an auditor we'll you know we will have been connect them to someone if um uh you know we definitely provide sort of marketing uh support in terms of featuring them in the newsletter and and on twitter um and you know on the governance forums uh we you know uh if they need an integration with the rv protocol we'll make an intro to some from the genesis team um as long as they have time and making sure that that we can prioritize something uh you know a review of something or an integration where wherever possible uh and we're trying to grow that uh more i think i think there's much more we we can do and um we'd love to build some some systems in place to just make that process really uh efficient and and um you know just take these projects to the next level um one other example of that is is actually um we find a d5 alliance to uh to actually um you know continue their their accelerator program for two projects from the abbey ecosystems and it'd be really cool to to take some projects that have come out of the grants program especially at a nascent stage to the next level with um with you know additional support uh and and you know funding if needed or or you know specific sort of expertise steps about um and you know the feedback has been overwhelming overwhelmingly positive from the grantees like um you know most them uh have been quite happy with um uh you know with of course the the the amount but but also like just the the support in terms of um the receptiveness of of the of the grants group to um the things they need and have they need so it's um yeah it's great to see that i think there's there's a lot more we can do um and uh you know a lot more we can we can set up to just make sure that um uh you know the the the the projects that we um that we fund uh you know actually like not just execute but also like you know achieve much more than um you know they initially set out even if that doesn't mean something that um you know the initial scope of what was laid out with the grant but but just like you know build this this group of people that will continue to return to rv in some way even if they you know temporarily don't and and so um yeah the the idea is as we get into i'll go here first um so we get into the future of avi grant's like uh the way i think about it is you know we really want um the the current set of grantees to um to eventually like have a say in in the approval of these future grants and that's how we we build this grants dow which is uh through the set of contributors so if we um right now have like nine people reviewing grants like we eventually want to have we're setting up the processes right so that eventually can actually scale to um you know many more people having you know some sort of say on what grants get approved ideally based on expertise and reputation so for example uh you know if there's a group we funded uh for sort of a risk management type thing um and and and they're you know we we get a bunch of um uh grant proposals on risk related um uh you know projects then you know it'd be cool for them to approve it uh it'd be cool to have some some sort of um you know reputation weighted uh weighted scoring for something like this and um and then slowly build out like uh the the membership for the grand style and the uh almost like you know i think of it is um you know if the the people who have a reputation in in the rv custom which is people who built for ave will have some rights over you know treasury spending power which is which is kind of different from um maybe the typical token holder board uh which you know will be dominated by uh you know investors who hold a lot of tokens or the core teams in this case you know you could actually move to a case where um your treasury spending power is is allocated more to people who are actually contributing and building and have a reputation in the protocol which which might be a different set of people might overlap um and so that's how i think about it i'd say that um you know we want to build this uh this this group uh that will expand it's right now 37 projects but you know it will expand to uh to 50 to hundreds of projects and and um and have some way that that these these folks can benefit from each other if it can um can you know support and um and you know vet the new set of grants um and uh and yeah but build this like cool sort of network that um continues to help avi and and benefits themselves uh in terms of sort of their career crypto experience um just a little bit on on some of the content work that we've done like um with uh you know we've you know published 15 issues of this newsletter and um you know it's it's actually a very cool way i would say if you don't know anything about rv uh or even if you do like i still find it useful um that i'm quite involved with ave like to just get a sense of what's happening in the in in the community and you know um actually you know does a lot which which is something i love like it has a strong culture of bottom up experimentation um there's of course like you know the core like lending protocol but there's so many other things happening in the niyabi custom um like uh like avi arc or um or the decentralized social network that's that's in the works or um you know sort of rv deployment on avalanche or other chains and and i think it's the rv news is a cool way to track that and uh it's written you know bill writes in in in quite a uh easy to to access like fun friendly way and so that's a cool way to i think start off just knowing what's happening in the rv custom and we also give an overview of of what's happening with the grand style and um and the grants that we've we we've funded so far um the the community calls happen once a month and we do this on twitter spaces uh we've found that actually to be quite useful because um it gets a you know higher degree of participation and uh and you know it's cool at the end to answer some questions uh we typically have um you know an initial intro um and then i'll give an overview of some things that have happened in the grand style uh stani will will chime in with um yeah with you know jenny what's happening at darby protocol uh we'll have like emilia or someone else from the dev team give a dev update and then we'll just get into the the community and so um you know this could be proposals that have come out uh from uh from uh contributors from the community so this could be like a liquidity mining proposal or um you know or a proposal for avid to deploy in another chain uh we might include uh you know uh sort of say like uh you know one of the folks from the orbit trim team or avalanche to chat about um you know why i obviously apply there um and then um yeah and then we feature a bunch of grantees who have gotten funding or are still in the um in the iteration phase and and uh just to learn more about what they're building and and get questions from the community and so i think community cards are usually always quite energizing and um give a good sense of what's happening with ave and we've also started these uh amas with grantees and and with other community members where um this is separate from the from the main community called but it's just a you know getting a deeper dive into you know who who the people are in the rv custom and um and you know how we can actually um you know get to know them better and and just um you know again like form connections between uh different people in the ecosystem so that they can actually you know help each other and you know and take what they're doing to the next level um great this is uh kind of all i had like this is sort of a summary of if um some of the projects were funded um but i'll i'll stop there and you know like happy to to take um any questions if there are any um if not we can we can sort of move on this was awesome um there's a couple of questions around to sort of your learnings from the past few months so i think kind of talked about the new plan but uh maybe it'll be good to dig into sort of what you did to come up with this new plan like how did you go about getting feedback from all the other grant programs out there what did you learn in terms of like how things were set up for everybody else and some of the lessons learned and could just walk us through some of that decision making process and how you think um changes you've adopted are gonna help address some of those existing issues yeah yeah sure so um i think uh in terms of like the the next evolution of of grants it's still definitely like in the works and like where this is like i would say it's the work in progress um but uh like i i've um you know spoken a bunch with uh with ken from uni grants as well as larry from from compound and and you know they've they've been great in terms of um you know sharing their lessons learned uh and i think you know there's a lot of similarities between our grants programs and some differences i think just based on the way that that avi operates um and so i think the way i've gone about is like you know thinking through the um the you know the sort of talking to projects and seeing like what's actually helped them and and what's not and things that they uh you know sort of uh value and appreciate and and um ways that that can be improved and so um you know one of those things is is definitely like the the post-grant support in terms of like um you know having projects with with um you know doing things like sort of get getting auditors or getting connected with uh with with the uh with the avi genesis team where needed or just just someone like you know some of these are really young teams and and have no um sort of social capital in the ecosystem and so just like bridging that gap um where we can uh and right now it's been sort of you know done like 20 percent one-on-one time basis but i think there's definitely scope to um you know systematize that and make sure that you know we actually actively reach out to projects even before they do uh with with asking them for the help they need um and then i think the yeah the next like evolution of you know like it's going to be a process and it might take some time but but but slowly like um i think giving us you know some of the existing grantees like um who who are interested in in doing it like more of a say in what's happening with with avi grant i think that's uh that's really crucial just to um you know make sure that that they're still involved like these are these are folks who have uh clearly signaled that um you know they they wanted you know do something for the ecosystem and and uh and they you know a bunch of them have and they've successfully completed something and so we don't want them to um you know go away like we want them to to continue to do that and and there's some way we can um you know incentivize them um to stay in the ecosystem and and continue to support like i i think that would be great uh of course like you know first with with them with their projects and um you know with maintaining what would they build uh or having a you know a way that um uh you know that they can transition into other groups who can do the maintenance um uh it's of course like helpful that all this is open source so that makes it easier but there are cases of course where um you know projects built and then you know it um something goes um uh you know still after after a few months because uh you know because the original team sort of isn't there but yeah the goal is to like you know make sure that these projects continue to engage with uh with rv after the initial uh grant and and i think uh having them have a say in um in the future grantees is like you know one really cool way to do that no it's really awesome um i think one thing you touched on and this is kind of one of the very kind of common themes is uh post grant support and then you already kind of brought it up like what are some of the challenges here and sort of uh obviously as you're giving out grants more actively it can kind of go from 10 teams to 100 very fast how do you think about structuring the grants program or even the staff to actually position everybody to get the help yes good question i think one of them is is uh marketing and and just like uh ways like i said like some of these projects like they might they might be an anon project or someone with um with like very very little social capital and um and you know they might build something really cool but they actually need it need users and they need um you know the rb community to be aware that they built this and so uh we really try to uh you know make sure we push that so so we'll we'll invite them to the community call uh we'll um you know definitely share on twitter both uh in terms of the grand style kind as well as like you know personally all of us um and then when they um you know when they launch we'll try to make governance for him post uh we will try to make you know intros where possible it's like you know i've enjoyed a bunch of teams to other other protocols where i need it um and so yeah it's out of the personal hub but like i would say um just you know helping uh you know some of the the social capital that we have to make sure that you know very interesting projects like get the um get the attention they deserve and what's great about the crypto ecosystem is that everyone's very very receptive to this and it's it's um yet it's definitely like early enough days where where like you know you want yeah everyone's down to um to sort of yeah try you know actually take a chance and on someone else's video um so i'd say marketing is one uh the the other one the other ones i would say are more like um uh you know what like they're they started different by projects like few projects have asked for for help with getting auditors um uh i think you know a few projects have uh have asked um just for like sort of technical like sort of smart contract architecture type review um uh and like you know have having someone getting connected to someone who can do that a lot of times yeah it is i would say like yeah getting connected to like xyz person either from uh the the ave uh genesis team or from like sort of outside and and um helping them with that but yeah there's more we can do and i think um uh you know it would be good to to like come up with uh one next survey i'll be grant members um but but also yeah just just come up with a you know like hey like these are actually like three to four things we should like just do but as a default for all projects and then there's something additional we can you know we can explore it uh case by case no that makes a lot of sense and um i guess does that mean this is how the rfps are set up for other grants like how who comes up with what is important or should be funded or we want to work on and what's kind of the process of prioritizing or getting something on that list yeah uh so we uh we've sold that list from um one the uh like the self avi community basically the governance forum and and things that come up in the telegram group um and so you know we we sort of so from there resources from the avi uh team there's there's a bunch of things that you know they might want to build that they they don't have time to build and and it's um yeah we would love like the community to engage with building that uh and um you know as we speak to a bunch of these projects like their ideas that that come up that we have that might you know like sort of direct like um you know that might just like have an existing um sort of integration or something like that and we will put that up but i'd say that yeah the top ones um you know right now listed uh um a governance front end on rv that's open sourced and built in the arbi repo uh that's something that's you know high priority that um you know we we're looking for you know basically a simpler ui for like anyone you know right now if you're technical it's relatively easy if you're not technical it's it's not straightforward to actually make a governance proposal and so make it easier to do that um the second one is like a developer's dao that we're you know hoping to wrap up soonish but but actually have a team of developers work directly for rv protocol that um that you know work on some of the um you know core development uh but also like you know some like authored some of the um the work like reviewing governance proposals or things like that um and yeah what the dao is so the developer that was super interesting actually so how do you kind of set something like that up and then sort of how do you in a way if you were to look at it as like a charm like the yeah i said the world chart but like if you look at it that way what is sort of like that the setup here of uh who is responsible for what and which organization manages what yeah well it's a good question i don't think we have it figured out but like um the the idea is to um uh it's like there will be a team lead and like maybe five to six other people um uh so the team lead i think we'll work full-time five to six other people will work uh part-time uh i think uh you know they um in the beginning like avigran style you know should have like uh you know pretty much like what one carbon from my team has been leading the process and um either him or like someone else should have like you know some type of monitoring of what's happening with the developers now um and of course the developers you know should be quite transparent with the work they're doing with um with the ave community so i'd say like some of these structures they start off maybe with especially when they're seated by the ground style where they i wouldn't say you know i'm not going to say like sort of hierarchically come you know the ground stuff but more that we at least take some ownership over monitoring what's happening and making sure that you know if if there's a bunch of funds in the multi circuits um you know besides having something like that we also have like some human monitoring of what's happening and make sure there's reporting to the gov the government's forum and things like that but i think eventually you know like the pathway is like these you have these like sub-dials that they come out of ave grants for that army grand style but eventually if they're successful they just get directly funded from from the treasury and and um and you know report to dave dao and and um and you know there's a mechanism to do that and maybe maybe you see like these you know you see dozens of these uh these dials that um they can actually like you know the coordinate on some level that can function independently to some degree uh but uh yeah like you know are able to report to governance and and continue that way um but yeah i i think the the structure of this like is still you know uh tbd in terms of what what works i think we we need to experiment with it and um and you know i don't especially with the larger projects like that there hasn't been um you know too much of this and so it's cool for us like pioneer something like this um but you know that there'll be some mistakes along the way and we can change the exact structuring of this as we go absolutely and i think we kind of just this is going to be a recurring theme in all most of our talks here today which is it is a pretty massive experiment we're doing at scale and there's so much we're trying to figure out as we kind of go through it too so uh we'll take some time but given that this came out in uh in may of this year and it feels like forever and you've already given out close to a million dollars in grants it's just incredible that we've made so much progress uh already um i want to also give a special shout out to uh to bill on the chat who's been uh really uh been incredible answering all these questions and for those of you who are interested in learning more especially about what's happening in the ava ecosystem be sure to subscribe to avenues.substance.com because that does cover all the great things that are happening and i know we're getting uh i don't want to ask a handful of other questions but i feel like it will probably take away from the another talk that you have in about an hour which is on how do you actually successfully receive a grant from the ave dao committee so uh we'll save some of those questions for that uh in the meantime i want to thank chris for that amazing overview and now we'll move on to our next uh talk so thanks trias and we'll see you soon yeah thanks [Music] [Applause] [Music] you