Evolution of Organizations | Ramona Tudorancea

[Music] I guess it's a bit Cricket right now but hello with Denver um I um wanted to present the findings of a workshop we had at Vitalia City last month on the evolution of organizations my name is Ramona I am a lawyer um I am based in the Cayman Islands and I'm also one of the co-founders of exen um a law as technology enabling human collaboration firm um based on our preliminary discussions um we we have a few new areas of research and essentially um this is what I wanted to present today I'll start by giving credit where credit is due um so this was co-created during the Vitalia popup City uh there still having fun over there I just came to e Denver uh but everybody's like pretty much already there it's uh been prolonged for the month of March this is one of the uh popup cities that has been um currently getting funding via the new gitcoin round um along with Edge city which is happening in Denver right now um so summary findings um I wanted to take um advantage of the opportunity that Vitalia um presented in terms of putting together lawyers Engineers biotech people and then thinking about Dows in terms of a classification of dows is needed and what would be a bioscientist approach so from personal research um I know that traditionally everybody's writing about Dows but there are just very few classifications that matter the two axes that I've um encountered in the literature are fully automated versus participatory Dows and then um depending on the Dow Mission there could be additional clarifications protocol Services investment grants Etc and then I started thinking from a from a biologist perspective um you know animal aggregation has been going going on for quite some time right and then scientists started to explore and learn more about it again for quite some time so in terms of the patterns that we're seeing in nature what if we started to look at the patterns and emerging properties of dows as systems so what are Dows really they're open systems first of all right so um there's like these free floating entities in The Ether uh people can come come and go um they could join they can some of the decisions are automated some of them are not really and then like we see patterns emerging when we start looking at the Dows so like in protocol Dows we have more automation but there are plenty of dows that are really participatory aggregation of humans um I've been quite a few as a lawyer from the traditional space I started with Lex da the Le engineering Guild um and then moved to R&D Dow for research and development and you know teaching and training people and uh finally meta game is one of my favorites so um like but I I looked into other Dows is in terms of research I poked in around I got dragged on a few Boards of Directors for legal rappers for Dows or got dragged into acting as a consultant for this type of projects so I've seen quite a few patterns um sorry so first of all the first pattern that we're seeing um is the Swarm pattern and what I realized by talking to people in Dows is that there's um sometimes there is not enough of an exploration of the concept of a swarm so the formation of swarms in biology is one of the manifestations of the so-called active matter self-propelled individuals that form hole it can be a swarm or a flock as we saw in the previous slide um it can be bacteria motion it can be cells in the body it can be artificial systems um the mathematical model which is used to model these swarm like behaviors um is has been established since 1995 and um it it shows that there is a phase transition from a disordered motion to a large scale ordered motion essentially chaos turns into harmony now this Supply to humans as well in particular as Dows and social experiments so from what I can see and from my perspective Dows are more like corporate and social experiments in human aggregation um two recent articles that could be useful to check out if you if you are liking the math um or I like I put the references down below I'm happy to share the slides um essentially this is a interesting phenomenon because we are seeing emergence of new forms of human aggregation at much larger scale than previously um encountered and with different forms as well so if we think about the Swarm as a working Dow model um we realized that swarms work really well with a great number of Dow members who are relatively at the same level of skills and involvement if groups are not homogeneous then there is is a risk of leveling down to the lowest denominator this um has been seen traditionally in many environments previous to Dows scientific studies Of Swarm like behavior in animals are quite numerous and informative in a swarm of bees for example a few individuals collectively inform Behavior by moving faster than their neighbors who are simply playing Follow the Leader let's connect this with the social engineering and consumer uh behaviorism as well in an col Coles large complex behaviors are coordinated via very simple rules in great numbers this results in self organized systems which are Dynamic and establish um emergent properties from the nonlinear combination of interactions these are density dependent interactions the more packed together a crowd is a herd or flock or a swarm the mo the more interactions and the more different patterns emerge so we have four um key features of these open systems these are coordination cooperation decision- making and collaboration and then um the patterns that are formed in the animal world are both resilient and flexible but scientists still don't understand why this happens um there is a lot of speculation in terms of the reasoning behind it could be protection of the weaker um animals from from predators or there is another speculation that is really um optimizing foraging um and it's actually an adaptation but if we look at examples from nature we see that depending on the type of animal on the species of animal their patterns are quite different and this is an important thing to remember because the summary finding number two that we had in our Workshop was that the centralized organizations need supporting systems for their members um which can include onboarding maintaining momentum and adjusting for personal style of work and type of contribution people are not the same um our patterns are different and it may be an unpopular opinion um but for swarms not to sacrifice people for the greater good an understanding of individual patterns and necessary supporting systems are key so let's think about the different forms of dows if a person spends I don't know um a smaller percentage of their time acting as a node validator that's fine the system wouldn't shape him or her if a person becomes a full-time Dow contributor in several Dows which are have a similar pattern then he or she becomes a um full-time member in a certain system which shapes Behavior Which shapes mindset we are transformed with every interaction action this discussion that we're having right here this interaction that we're having changes things um every interaction that we have in an established system changes us right the more frequent the more numerous interactions the more we are changed by that so I wanted to suggest an alternative working Dow model is the pride um if Dows can have different models because the path turns of the people of the Dow contributors are different then Nature has many examples of teamwork and emerging properties resulting from aggregation even if this is less statistically impressive for example Lions hunt as a team they pursue big game they study their prey and they decide on a strategy they delegate roles and then maintain discipline clearly there is a very different pattern here there is also much smaller size so perhaps a taxonomy of dows would be useful and this was the conclusion of our uh bioscientist participants is like we have to know what we're dealing with summary finding number three there is a need for both commitment ensuring that stuff gets done and just rewards contributions not promises um from personal experience again I'm a lawyer I live in the Cayman Islands lots of dows rely on service providers this is not a very decentralized approach and it implies a potential strategic risk it depletes the treasury and the members don't learn um so I hope that uh my fellow service providers from the Cayman Islands won't get too upset about this but my personal opinion is that Community should actually do its own work the Dow management Gap in communities um is something I've um established again when I did my research um Community Management is not the same as is training and leveling up Dao members the quality of members and even what is a quality member in a Dao do Dows actually ask this question or some of them do obviously but I believe that web 3 requires a great deal of personal agency and integration in a way participating in these open systems forces Evolution people are forced to adapt to a new way of interacting they are forced to take more initiative and become more resilient summary finding number four we already have the tools to give legal personality to a Smart contract operating pool of assets and liabilities but obviously simply slapping together a legal rapper is not the way again I'm a lawyer um legal rapper is a little bit like that kitten there it's um the that is making use of legal rappers need to understand how legal rapper actually works right and I would prefer to call it a legal container um many Dows are actually like sees I call it web three live cultures um there are there is a lot of talent there is a lot of value there is a lot of innovation lots of ideas however the lack of containers in which value can acre and grow is uh prejudicial to building up and um growing right so legal containers are actually a useful thing to have but then again please understand how they work the Dows need to adjust and tie their consensus mechanism into the corporate governance of the legal rapper this is critical because otherwise what will happen in practice is that in a court of law the judge would look it's like okay so you have a legal rapper you have an independent board of directors you have no interactions whatsoever were with them despite like except one one meeting a year members are still responsible for the things they do um when I did research in November so so I had the opportunity in November to publish a paper on the um risks um in Dows risk taxonomy for Dows and I think that one of the main differences between the traditional risk management space in the corbor world and the Dows is that Dows have an additional C category of risk which is risk for dowo participants this normally doesn't happen in a traditional organization because you're either an agent an employee or you're a director and officer with liability insurance so so essentially um becoming a dow participant without a contract in place with the legal rapper is exactly the same as being a dow participant in a dow which has no legal rapper it it really depends you're responsible for your own action actions as a multi- keyholder for example so again please understand how things work I this may be hard this may be hard because some of the push back that I'm getting and this is what happened during the pagora workshop when we had this discussion was that um Dow prefer to remain outside the legal system it's like tunnels of reality legal system is one tunnel of reality and then um Dows and blockchain is another tunnel of reality however if we play by statistics the tunnel of reality that is the legal system is still much bigger and wider so essentially Dows would eventually interact with traditional legal systems so they can be prepared for it they can evolve into it or they can just remain on the fringes personally the hero's journey is not complete if you remain on the fringes you can find your treasure but if you don't bring it back to the mainstream it's sort of wasted potential and you can get upset at me and have this discussion afterwards or ask me questions is like I'm perfectly happy to be you know unpopular on this summary finding number five common law works very very well with the centralization bed law does not propagate but regulations the administrative State need trimming and weeding I think we are aligned here we are on the same page common law is at hard decentralized it's two core pillars in the United States for example or respect for judicial precedent and fundamental human rights um again traditionally in the United States law and precedent were used to constrain governmental power not the other way around and then um famous definition um of James Wilson um which is part of the American Funding founding uh his law is the Perfection of Reason through experience so that whatever is not reasonable cannot be the law so yes I am a lawyer I live in the Cayman Islands I am also qualified in the US and other jurisdictions so I did study this thing and I did study common law summary finding number six effective organizations do not just emerge they evolve this design grantly improves speed of Innovations um so so learning from Nature has been the way to the greatest human discoveries in history um recently scientists um have found that evolution in nature is not random previously we all thought that oh it's just a bunch of random things happening and then whoever has an evolutionary Advantage is like Will Survive and propagate but actually it was found by research on the DNA that critical functions are protected from variation in uring more stability whereas other areas are more open to experimentation um which which uh ensures Evolution so what are the essential Frameworks and critical structures that should be protected and what should be open to experimentation and my invitation here is actually think about Dows as experiments and the evolution of organizations in all organizations right so human aggregation models and the Dows as experiments of human aggregation models can actually teach a lot of lessons and help traditional organizations evolve into more decentralized more resilient more democratic structures summary finding number seven seeding works best a minimum viable framework and the curation filtering of the layers of membership so I'm I'm I'm quoting uh Michael zaram here the founder of blog science um who introduced the concept of minimal viable Commons uh based on the idea that communities create shared resources or Commons knowledge infrastructure financial resources that are collectively owned or managed for the benefit of their members and then the um minimum viable commment is the smallest possible sh set of shared resources necessary for a community to function and Thrive now it depends on what you mean by Community because uh we all know that communities can be various sizes and shapes but um at Vitalia we actually had a chance of observing the benefit of curation and the filtering of participants around certain common themes um allowing an emergence of certain forms of collaboration among peer groups which share values and Mission so the keywords here they're not emphasized there in the slide but it's peer groups so relatively same level and then shared values of mission there is some alignment there there is some overlap so that people can effectively work together um I feel that this is really missing in many dowo type projects it's starting to take shape but it's a very very slow process um summary finding number eight applying principles of contract law to decentralized organizations results in a or can result in a graphic representation of the Nexus of contracts could help understand better design structure so this is essentially about Vector modeling peer-to-peer interactions over time uh which could allow us to observe an inventory of various shapes and forms of dows and have a greater understanding of how the centralization really Works uh we could consider adding um artificial intelligence to the Nexus of contracts and bring about an evolution of dows as true cybernetic organism I believe that um there was a bunch of research papers out of China that were talking about the integration of digital humans in Dows and there's also some initiatives calling for borgs ETC um I would personally recommend that you check out the TA Jensen's when powerered new forms of life he calls them strand Beast um it's essentially wind powerered uh structures it's containers that hold shape they are moved by the wind but they are structur built in such a way that they hold their form so Dows ideally could could evolve in a form that would hold its shape and then humans could could be the wind the spirit um summary finding number nine in multicellular organisms cell structures do not have to be the same so I will um we're getting the towards the end of the summary findings and into more of the meat of the discussion regarding potential evolutions and potential structures for Dows the idea is that Dow members are not similar enforcing them in the same swarm like patterns is not beneficial since the law of the low lowest denominator applies for Dows to evolve and compete with organizations they have to become true multi organism with the more complex organizations um that means as legal containers so think about legal structures as legal containers right um like like membranes of a cell and they can be stacked together in various like in a variety of cell structures um well it's very difficult to do that when you know uh a legal structure in the Cayman Islands could cost you like a legal stack in the Cayman Islands with Foundation company on top some entities in the middle a token issuer in the bottom a token operating entity etc etc it could rack up to 50 Grand a year not even talking about you know local directors or anything like that so that's very difficult to do however legal Innovation is also about like for like Lex da is like has been working on a project called K with recordan LLCs where you can have those those cell type structures spawn off very easy easily um in but Vitalia is is in like prosperous special economic zone where we sort of pioneering new forms of of legal entities which which are more cost effective for example so essentially in many jurisdiction and this will happen all over the world um in certain countries legal structures are really very very not expensive right it takes a couple of hours to set up a legal entity cost a few hundred um stable diverse cells including a 360 you know degree skill set are great for stability and decision- making strategy and risk management and holding the Dow Mission this is based on the premise that diversity um provides um a lot of value and then you can group together in a in this sort of stable cell people who have different personalities different skill sets different angles um and that they would bring together a very full picture um this is comes directly from the teachings that we we do have um as part of the board governance right the best rules for the governance of the listed companies blah blah blah um essentially um skill sets are complimentary um grouping together people with complimentary skill sets um allows you to form a very stable shape and then you can plan for succession right you can have succession planning and skills management and ensure that structure is occuring however that in itself is not enough those cells are like the board of directors they're heavy they're they're they're sort of very stable but they're also very slow um and they need to reach consensus and reaching consensus when you have different perspectives and points of view is very hard um so you could also alternate those with break through agile cells that include dowo members as a small working group evolving together at much greater speed you group them together by skill set or by personality or like you know potentially building building in a dissolution date linked to Mission and budget and then you have those Hunter Seeker vehicles that are really really very effective at like going there and and and acting on the world seeking New Opportunities or building things and then you can deprecate them is like in a very much similar way again learning from nature like the human body renews itself periodically blood cells I think it's 40 days so like other types of cells is like a longer period of time but essentially um change in itself it's not threatening the survival of the bigger organism so this brings this bring us to the um working Dow model um that I personally like which is theel Mothership so this could be an example of a complex agregation with legal containers uh where you have your traditional legal rapper Cayman Foundation company on top or there are other jurisdictions that are having Foundation companies I'm not trying to sell Cayman um it is the best jurisdiction in my personal opinion but I'm also based there and I understand that it's not for everyone um but but essentially having that type of Orphan entity on top is a Mothership it serves to house shared resources for a community of subs or even a hunter Seeker Fleet of LLC Dow participants that are evolving at different speeds and for different activities essentially you could have even variable participation in that um you know Dow participant legal Fleet and this is different from Pure swarm type models which treat everybody the same but it's possible to have some of the same benefits right while allowing for more variety in terms of D participants activities and patterns so the mothership structure would also allow for a mechanism to compensate for the current management and strategy Gap in Dallas why do I say that Dallas have a management and strategy Gap um so I know that a lot of dows are are big Believers in the regulating power of the markets um and a pricing mechanism and that is true for the current needs however management and strategy is not just about you know meeting current needs and especially in strategy there are different layers of strategy um imagine like one of the more popular Concept in strategy is Blue Ocean strategy right it's like you're moving away from the red ocean filled with sharks what everybody's competing prices get down you're moving into new territory you're building your own product your own line of product you're meeting needs that the consumers or clients didn't know they have that cannot be um achieved by by market coordination it's impossible right it's not how markets work therefore you need to have this sort of research and development unit or or strategy unit as part of the Dow to be able to move into those territory and and those people would not provide value in the very short-term basis I think this is the biggest danger of dows is like I see a lot of similarities between Dows and listed companies uh both in terms of types of RIS like voter appe like burnout decision- making burnout and so on but but also in terms of um being skewed to um focus on the shortterm or midterm versus the long term game right the the very long-term game it's not true for every dowo right it depends on the quality of the Dow vision and the leadership but there's always a risk that Dows have to manage between between the risk of centralization so leadership is a little bit too active a little bit too focused and um decentralization where you sort of like dissipate lose form lose um shape so so there is also this this dance there is always this dance that Dows have to have to manage between um centralization and decentralization and then not everything I know that I'm again this may be a very unpopular opinion but not everything can be decentralized in the same way think about a hospital I I wouldn't want to go to a hospital that works in a decentralized fashion at least not in the current state of things so so um being more reasonable and being a a bit more pragmatic like Visionary realism should be a thing in terms of how we build the structures um would allow Dows to manage their resources at bit better I think and and also become a bit more competitive because the key to Dow was actually gaining the upper hand and then becoming more competitive towards traditional organizations is in reducing transaction costs so and then we move to the final summary finding that we have is that we need to find a good way to track emergence so I am what according to one definition of Balaji in the network St could be called a norming is sort of like I'm part of the existing systems um is like I'm very I'm I'm a very good fet like you know in the existing systems I'm like I'm a lawyer I'm sitting on boards I sort of very much into it from a traditional perspective and yet I'm here this is because I see opportunity in this uh movement in in these Dows that are social and corporate experiments um I sense the emergence of a new form of aggregation at the human um level and the emergence of group Consciousness and then also some of the innovations that Dows um do have and some of the dowo tools that the Dows do build with Automation and blockchain could be very very beneficial to our other larger communities like cooperatives for example they have like about 20 12% of GDP platform cooperatives are the most similar to Dows I have ever seen and those entities could greatly benefit from the Dao tooling um they also could teach Dows a lot of things in terms of human issues in human coordination um but but to get to the point for Dow to become an Al attractive alternative TR traditional organizations transaction costs need to be dramatically reduced um the investment of time needed for a potential da participant like me to maintain involvement is effectively a moe preventing most most people from working with Dows because there is such a thing as a as an opportunity cost if my time is better spent doing other things I would not go and get involved in a dow even though my contribution could be very beneficial to that project right so this is the well-known problem of user experience in web 3 but tracking emergence and Dows is part of this I've had this conversation there are a lot of tools out there that track they are built for Community Management enabling the people managing the community to see where the discussion happens who are the Hot Topics who are the more like more active participants however that also has a great potential of being misused for social engineering purposes so I argue that it should be open to the participants on the other side to D participants for them to be able to track what's happening in the Dow where their input would be appreciated needed useful and then um allowing them to keep track without spending all their time in coordination calls or trying to catch up on the Discord server so again artificial intelligence could help with this um moment to moment the Dow landscape evolves of great speed compared to traditional organizations and then like even traditional organizations if you think about um schools of project management and all those Evolutions in terms of like the agile and the scrum and this and that it happened because the of the need to improve coordination management between humans right so so for swarms to work coordination needs to happen in real time and arguably this does happen in automated Dows where it's about protocol and the rules it does not happen in participatory Dows uh which are um the greater number I would argue but it is to be seen without the taxonomy of dows without the pure classifications we we don't really know um so I would like to open the floor to some questions or comments if people want to um at this point if people want to interact or ask any questions like it could be ask me anything um I can talk about Foundation company's DS otherwise I would just move on to explain a little bit of um what could be done yes there is a mic I believe yeah thank you for presentations I had a question about this particular slide so what do you think AI could be used could you please elaborate more on that to facilitate so AI could be used for in in this particular context to facilitate let's say more adoption or uh or just a collaboration between human par okay um yeah so what what initially draw my attention to this when I did the initial research on on uh risk management in Dows and and what was the state of things so risk management in Dows is a very silid approach it reminded me to the practices of risk management that had evolved in a very early stage uh when it was still a sort of a uh only Financial Risk or only security risk or only this type of risk um now enterpr risk management is a holistic approach to risk management in an organization founded on the understanding that risk is uncertainty not just loss but also opportunity and therefore risk needs to inform strategy so um looking through the papers the research papers in terms of risk management and dowo structures and what was out there um I I found uh a couple of papers of Chinese scientists that were talking about the potential of using digital humans in and um that is a very interesting proposition first of all it raises the question of digital humans and what type of Rights should they have right it's like if it's AI if it's Bots it's like what what what recognition what legal recognition would they have because right now they would be considered assets right um and I would doubt that there would be any country out there who would be willing to give um legal rights and protection to AI uh it just would not happen at least not at this stage so so how could Dows actually employ artificial intelligence in a very intelligent way um I've seen it happen in terms of smaller Dow Bots used to summarize um so track emergence in a way summarize um um chats in a telegram group uh across multiple channels or um there is a project um like artm is not here but I may mention harmonica um as part of R&D Dal ventures in terms of tracking what what actually happens in Dows and in terms of communities right so so there are lots of projects out there which can track interactions between people that that is known and um the output um can be more or less visible to the public or to the participants but essentially that would be a service now if we want to go beyond that and consider never mind um if we want to go beyond that and consider how artificial intelligences digital humans could become part of dows um it all depends on the uh programming right it all depends on what they are trained to do and what they are able to do I would not trust large language models um to do much because it's not very precise but there are other AI models out there that are being developed so I would not um I would not exclude the future where um and then actually one of my co-founders should be here to talk about this because he's the one into permissionless AI um but but essentially you could um consider that AI could um maintain right like thinking about those structures that maintain their shape and then where humans are simply providing the wind or the spirit inspiriting those those those entities um AI could be provided could be could be um used to provide that glue that keeps the shape and provide certain running maintenance services along certain parameters right so that would be possible use of AI in Dows and I do think it would not be threatening if done in such a way and then again um if you think about legal structures as really being legal containers that protect certain things right there are legal containers that are holding assets and liabilities um AI could be part of the you know assets protected in such a legal container and therefore um if it ties into an ownerless Foundation type structure that is linked to a Dao it could be argued that AI does not belong to anyone it's not um you know owned by anyone as opposed to what is happening with other projects where there are commercial interests um there are other considerations but again this is like very early stages but thank you for the question yes Spencer thank you hi yeah I'm uh I'm great presentation I'm I'm really curious about the mothership model that you mentioned and I know we've talked a little bit about it at lexow but I'm curious if you've come across any Arrangements like this in the wild where you can have a almost like a membership body but they all have individual legal rappers would something like that function in certain cases um yeah so the mothership idea came because uh we were brainstorming in terms of what would be some good ways to help um Grassroots projects that are really good projects that deserve to exist uh with their legal needs and their legal structures um taking advantage of potentially not not everybody can afford full stack uh with a foundation company on top and then several subsidiaries and then local directors and then law firms and so on so so uh we were thinking what about doing the white combinator of of dows right like essentially providing some really really good training materials good practices generating that um inside of a Cayman Islands Foundation company to be used as a Mothership for certain types of projects some projects deserve their own legal structure simply because they are much riskier than others I would not put the centralized Finance projects in such a uh sort of an incubator Mothership with the simple creative Grassroots projects right but if grouping together projects by area has taught us anything is that they could rather benefit from economies of scale so we saw this um at Vitalia I was there just for a week but then again like many of the others were there for two months already and and going on the third month now um you can see that people are working along the same lines they're working on projects that are similar that could benefit from synergies that could learn from each other as a lawyer I well so I I sort of started as a traditional lawyer and then I got out and started my own company to fully focus on digital assets and how they could transform the world and then I got like oh this is interesting from Project Consulting I could build this this one is interesting it would be interesting to build this one and then turned into sort of a a venture Studio of things and now um thinking of law is legal technology enabling like laws technology enabling human collaboration like this is something I can get behind and again some projects deserve to be helped whereas other projects have the funds to um you know provide the resources so that some open Goods can be created Lex da for example has law is a public good law should be a public good people should not have have to pay a fortune just to learn what their legal obligations are and what they are allowed to do so so again the mothership um is like having this incubator it could reduce costs um um having some eligibility criteria would enable synergies to be created between projects and collaborations and again the idea is not to get them to compete with each other but to get them to support each other and then in the bare Market this is what we saw a lot is that projects who had more funding supported those who had the developers and sort of everyone survived um do we have any more questions at this point I could pitch the Dow incubator anytime but I appreciate the interactions um the pagora workshop was actually a co-creation so this is why I'm I'm I'm so keen on interaction yeah hello yes yeah thanks for the keynote that's that's awesome I'm actually looking into this part as well and I've been part of liod and and some other so I know this pain and struggle what I'm curious about is whether you see and believe that is possible or maybe observed some examples of having an extr territorial um form of existence of a digital company so with no rapper with no uh container nothing just a pure digital entity which is still legiate right so this turns out um so this is a question about um whether Dow without a legal rapper or legal entity attached to it can can just be a digital entity fully on chain and still survive and this turns turns us back to that moment where I talk about the tunnels of vision the tunnels of reality um right now we are in a tunnel of reality which is based on the legal fiction that actually gives certain people certain rights and obligations and then has agreed that certain incorporate artificial entities deserve to have rights and obligations and that Authority comes from the state from them being approved by the state so initially it happened with with you know uh the monarchy and then the king uh chartering them and then or or the state and now it's the state so it's linked to a political authority to a pol like to to a sovereign territory that could actually grant that so in this vision of the world based on fragmented reality uh where country by country by country they have different rules and they have different rights and chartering different entities um that is like not easy to do uh the participants would take the risk I mean it can be done honestly if if the Dow if the purpose of the Dow is more like a club they're not doing anything which is particularly risky or should be regulated if done as a business it's like really they could um however they are running risks because in most uh countries they will be established as a sort of a a partnership right so so they will become indefinitely liable for what the others are doing uh which is not something we want so to to move forward without this um we could see um to potential path right we could see a path where um countries agree that each Dow participant is responsible for their own doing we could see a path where each Dow participants creates its own LLC their own LLC and they operate via that and it's like that's that um however um the benefit of dows ultimately is that they are allowing people to aggregate across National borders right they are allowing people to work peer toer across National borders in a transnational way so um this is the most direct path I believe towards having a a global planetary Society a planetary civilization and is the Dows I see dowas as Pioneers the sorts of experiments of new ways of work so that to allow people to cross these country boundaries um any activities any human activities is is risky right but again we we turn back to risk is uncertainty risk is not loss risk is uncertainty it can be loss but it it can also be gain right so to the extent that the activity of the da in question would not not raise particular issues which would be very threatening to an existing um country or established system it could be done I believe I I wouldn't as as a lawyer I wouldn't necessarily advise it because of the risk associate for the dowo participants but it really depends if it's just a club it's like you don't need to incorporate it's like you're you're not doing anything which could expose you to re like real liability risk individually right so so this is this is why it's so difficult for Regulators to grasp those and it's so difficult for Regulators to actually determine a regime that would applicable to to all Dow just not possible Right these these entities need to be classified according to their own patterns and traits because we're talking about an entire ecosystem of very different species coexisting under the name of dows um one other thing I would say is that personally with iian one of my reasoning behind joining this new law law firm about building um you know law is legal technology is that we want to build I see um regulations as waves of the ocean right is they're coming and going and there's no way for me to control what politicians are doing what where politics are and it makes a lot of wasted efforts to try to build based on that and it annoys me a lot when I see law firms publishing go this regulator did that and that regulator did that it's like okay but that is part of the administ ative State really we should be building for the world we want to have not building based on what the regulations currently are but build based on where we want the regulations so good enough look at the fatf look at the international standards that are being developed across Industries across countries um build a good enough model based on that so it holds in in most jurisdictions um and then and then just go with that right because if we have a good enough model that's being built for to work in several countries the marginal risk that there would be an enforcement action based on the difference the smaller difference that we could not cover on the the global level it's relatively low so that's a manageable risk right it's like it's a much better risk so of course it doesn't mean that build without any rules but build with the rules that of the world that we want to have where like people are not scammed or rugged or whatever right yeah any other sorry any other questions we still have some time yes first of all a little too close uh thank you for your wonderful presentation i' love the biological aspect to it and I had a uh question on that that kind of follows nicely from the last one uh we speak of evolution and the concept of philogenetic trees and there's a point where you separate and two communities are no longer able to interbreed between them sometimes it feels like we're at an inflection point do you see that with the state of dows and Legacy corporations that in the future you choose one or the other or do you think that it'll be retroactive um and possible that way corporations are a fiction so thank you for the question the question was about the philogenetic trees and whether Dows are just a different strand versus Corporation and it's about having a choice one versus the other no uh because corporations are artificial Creations it's like Bitcoin proved that money is whatever we make of it right so the same way uh we can choose the rules of the game for corporations uh we can also have a lot of flexibility in terms of creating new corporations so um lawyers would know this but but the LLC which is a very popular corporate traditional corporate structure was very recently created in the United States and it was mostly due to the efforts of the American Bar associations and there were like other efforts because uh people were finding the corporation the traditional Corporation to be too heavy and they wanted a smaller leaner vehicle that they could use that would ensure that they had limited liability always but but a little bit more flexibility in terms of how they operated so this got created and then once a state Creed it the others picked up on it because of course they they were like fear of missing out in terms of like people going over there and incorporating into into that so I and and we're experimented with corporations and corporate entity structures all the time uh the foundation company in the Cayman Islands which is so popular for found for for Dows right now actually has been created in 2017 this is very recent and it has been created because uh people were complaining that they wanted the trusts but they didn't want the trustees so they like the concept of a trust of separating a certain pocket of assets of liabilities and putting them together right and separating them from their own you know assets and liabilities but they didn't want to go to a trustee that a professional they had no idea who there was is like or it was very cumbersome or it was very difficult for them to work with so they wanted a company that they could manage more directly the regulator being very pragmatic in the Cayman Islands is like okay let's create a foundation companies structure which is a cross between a company a real commercial company and Trust um and it works um in the European Union there was a failed experiment of um European company that was created uh that was meant to encourage companies across the European Union to incorporate in a common form that would um actually have rights all over the European Union it's not very popular people don't know about it but it exists in Canada we're seeing right now the development of the public good corporations with certain other role so it's it's like corporate structures evolve and create new over time and then depending on the evolution of corporate structures some of them would simply disappear and you know become a statistics in history or they would continue to be used if they are still useful if there are still people buying into them right so I see um Dows as a potential alternative to corporations maybe but I think it's more likely that Dows will change how corporations actually work in practice I think that's a a um a much more beneficial way of of thinking about the future because Dow bring certain certain advantages in terms of you know enabling people to empowering people um having more uh consensual like agreements um not so much power over another uh and buying someone else's time but but actually collaborating together to to to a future and I think a lot of people in the traditional business business world and traditional corporations would like that right in a very similar way people in the United States for example there are companies in the United States um that are owned by their employees like their Founders actually when they retired they they just gave all the stock away to their employees it doesn't mean that those companies are managed in a decentralized fashion but they are owned by their employees right they still have their managers and then like hierarchies and whatever but like from a beneficial ownership standpoint it's changed something for people so there are various like like in the I would say that the natural world is the best way to learn looking in the natural world the more diverse forms we have the better we are the more resilient we are um and it should be the same for corporations and for organizations and way of structuring one of the seminal Works um in the corporate space is actually the founders mentality it was a study done by people from um Bane and Company and then it was they studied the more more successful corporations and they discovered that um those corporations are still managed by the founders they still had that atos of the founders that vision of the founders very close to how they operated this was what made them successful so so in terms of um finding those elements that would bring enough of a good change and then putting them linking them with a a set of tooling and Automation and blockchain um it would make a great impact on from my personal perspective I studied um so I got dragged on a few Boards of directors and I was uncover like lawyer okay what do I know so let's let's go you know do some courses um very gender I guess uh women's perspective on things um if I don't know everything I'm not comfortable but um essentially it's I I went and I looked and I find like a lot of good practices evolved in the set of governance um strategy risk management and then I thought like what about if we could make them work in a decentralized way embed them in some Dow tooling and then they will for sure get implemented and that would be wonderful because most public companies most corporations right now only talk about those things they don't necessarily have them implemented everywhere it's very hard to implement something in the operations but if it's embedded in the tooling then it gets done right um so this is my interest and my perspective Ive on Dows and my this is why I'm interested in Dows and this is why I'm sort of like spending my time here or in various Dows and then um just for a bit of a shill you can find them in Lex Dow R&D Dow and metagame and then Jupiter block and Discord we still have four minutes but I sort of I think I'm personally done thank you so much