AppInfra Cycles and the Next Wave of Consumer Crypto | David Beiner, Justin Melillo, Andy Bromberg

moderating a panel with Justin Melo the CEO and co-founder of Mona as well as Andy brumberg the CEO of beam and David biner the CEO and co-founder of Hume and the topic of discussion is app incycles and the next wave of consumer crypto um hi everyone I'm Amanda I'm on the investment team at collab currency we're an early stage crypto find we focus Fus on consumer applications and a enabling infrastructure um at the early stages so excited to have some of our portfolio companies on the stage here today who are at the top of the consumer crypto space um so to kick things off we' love to just hear what you guys are building um so maybe starting off with Justin and Mona sure uh hi everyone my name is Justin I'm the founder CEO of Mona Monae is the metaverse World building platform uh built for creators by creators we make it easy and free for anyone to launch their own immersive web- based experience in game uh and it's all built on blockchain Rails hi I'm David biner uh co-founder and CEO of Hume at hum we want to create the Pixar for virtual artists and we have a platform that allows people to guide the future those virtual artists all on chain and I'm Andy Bromberg the CEO of beam uh and beam is super simple Global ven mode the easiest way to pay anyone anywhere in the world nearly instantly and it's built on the Eco protocol which is a cross chain payments protocol okay awesome so so to kick things off would love to hear a bit more about why web 3 um I know each of you are rethinking consumer experiences um obviously Hume for music Mona for 3D immersive and beam and Eco for payments so can you talk a bit about why web 3 what it's unlocking for you yeah absolutely um so we are living in an increasingly immersive digital future we're looking at the future of the internet the future ofu Computing it's all spatial uh in the future we're going to be spending more and more time inside of immersive worlds with our own avatars and wearables spending more uh of our time connecting across this new medium and we're going to be spending more and more money acquiring digital assets to use across these Virtual Worlds and so why web 3 for Mona uh well simply because you need blockchain in order in order to be able to have this open uh verifiable record of who created what who bought and sold what it really enables true ownership over your digital assets and as we spend more and more time inside of immersive worlds uh it's just super important that we actually have ownership over those 3D items those 3D environments everything that we're collecting and trading uh and if you look at you know the if you think about metaverse if you think about gaming today uh every platform that exists in web 2 they're really all walled Gardens where if you're buying a skin in valerant you can't take that skin elsewhere outside of the game same with fortnite or Roblox you don't have true ownership over those assets that you're buying um and ownership is really at the core of everything that we do uh as is Creator empowerment and the same goes with creators not just people who are purchasing items but for those who are building all these 3D assets uh web 3 enables these new cryptoeconomic incentives for creators to be able to establish themselves uh as Independent Artists and that's really important for us and and why web 3 for Mona so web 3 for uh blockchains have the most internet native people on planet Earth and that will continue to be a trend as more and more people come on chain for us when we were thinking about a Pixar for virtual artists A company that creates stories and worlds for these artists that virtual artist that is going to break through in the way that Pixar had their Toy Story is going to come from an onchain Community it's not going to come from a community that just came up on Instagram and being able to use onchain activity as a way for people to interact with these artists is how we see the future of this going people want to be able to participate they want to be able to track that participation and they want to be rewarded for that participation and for beam beam's all about payments and for me payments is the original and killer use case for crypto at some level if you look back at the Bitcoin white paper the title of that white paper was Bitcoin a peer-to-peer electronic cash system it was literally technology for better payments uh and you can actually feel the real effects of that that's not just a theoretical thing beam is a non-custodial wallet like metamask or Ledger or any other non-custodial wallet out there and one of the benefits of that is that it's globally available from day Zero because users actually have control of their own funds the wallet can be offered to everyone at the same time but if you look at traditional web 2 or custodial products those products have to go because they hold user funds country by country and get licensed and build a local team and do all the work required to spin up that individual placees operations that's that's why venmo is only live in the United States of America that's why transfer Wise Wise a company that's literally built for crossb payments is only live in 65 or 70 countries but a wallet like beam or metamask that's non-custodial actually allows you to pay anyone anywhere in the world nearly instantly and that's a huge advantage over traditional payment products and I think satoshi's original Vision was better money cash-like digital payments that avoided intermediaries and avoided the complexity of dealing with all of the custodial things that that exist in web 2 products and now it's finally time that we can actually go and build those awesome and and building a bit on what uh Justin and David were saying around creators can you talk about what are the business models that blockchain technology is enabling for creators and these new crypto native incentives um yeah I so for for Mona specifically um you know with the merse platform it's free for a Creator to build and upload their own immersive world or 3D avatar or 3D game object uh the creators are able to actually tokenize those assets as nfts uh you know as as oneof one nfts and uh they're able to then sell them through the mono platform or on any nft Marketplace um it's really really key that these are nfts because one uh you're able to verify you know which Creator owned it so you have true Providence over the actual work um but two it also enables uh Perpetual royalties for that work every time it trades hands uh which is so V ly different from how it works in web 2 for these same creators uh the world is filled with millions of just incredibly talented 3D artists working in the fields of visual effects and in game design and even hobbyist 3D creators or virtual reality artists um before this point in time there's really no way for those artists to be able to uh well one be able to prove that they had created a specific uh asset but also they were unable to see you know who bought and sold that asset and they were able to to be able to collect royalties every time that asset is traded um so this is so incredibly powerful for creators not just in you know the metaverse and in Mona but for any type of Creator who's mining nfts today um and it's a a huge huge opportunity uh for for these creators but particularly uh for for 3D artists they're able to actually have uh legitimate careers as Independent Artists because of what blockchain enables um and so you know with nfts being at the the core of our our Tech stack for creators who are building these these worlds that's one of the main ways that they're able to actually monetize and and capitalize and leverage blockchain uh in order to be able to make a living basically as full-time metaverse Builders I think for us we're we're waiting to see that like major Catalyst moment where especially with something like music or something like fashion things that are more culture driven versus gaming where you have that reason why you could go up to anybody and tell them like okay you should be participating in web 3 I think we're about to see that paradigm shift happening for the first time we have legit social apps like foraster appearing and the big opportunity there for any Creator is the old marketing funnel web 2 marketing funnel was build a social audience now you have to convert that social audience to go buy something or participate in something off the app with farter and these other Social Web 3 native social apps that are coming you're going to have direct purchasing direct Commerce experiences through those apps and that fallof which is often you know on a good day you get a 2% conversion rate is going to decrease and if you're a Creator and you're building on farter right now and you're going to be able to sell to your audience directly on that app this is like this is the massive paradigm shift that is going to bring tons and tons of people on into web 3 because it'll be undeniable cool and and building on that what you're saying around bringing more people into web 3 are you with your uh different apps primarily targeting crypto native audiences or mainstream audiences and kind of what is your go to market been so maybe we can go go down the line sure uh for Mona you know we've primarily been targeting 3D creators uh you know again these are professional VFX artists we have many creators in our community who who have been working at Studios like digital domain on Hollywood movies and also at aleaa game studios we've artists in the community that have been uh building games like cyberpunk uh we also have a lot of hobbyist 3D creators and so many of these creators you know we've found are actually crypto native and they're used to web 3 and they've been collecting and and minting nfts elsewhere and mono is really the first place for them to actually tokenize a 3D asset but also be able to display it in the highest quality all through the web browser um what we're also seeing is that many of these creators are not crypto native which is really exciting because we're onboarding thousands more creators to web 3 um but really a big shift and a big Focus for this year is engaging more with game developers specifically as well and I think web 3 has sort of had this issue traditionally uh of being associated with scams and all the negativity around it and so what we're really aiming to do is provide more education around all of the benefits that web 3 uh really provides creators and developers specifically and so now we're actually going a little bit broader not just crypto native but you know we're hoping to onboard thousands hundreds of thousands eventually millions of these developers who want to build interactive experiences that they can launch for the open metaverse and be able to find a new Revenue path for themselves we we've done a little bit of both uh on the web two side we've been thinking okay if we're if these virtual artists are going to be mainstream they need to have a presence on Instagram and Tik Tok that's just the tried and true model create great content figure out what works fine-tune it build that audience and maybe you can get some of them into web 3 in web 3 we've had very specific especially in the last month marketing plans and again what we're most excited about being able to do something like a frame on forecaster and beginning to think of something like boost protocol as the new version of paid ads with Boost protocol we can pinpoint who we want to Mint our product on foraster we can create some type of incentive I think in the future you know you'll be able to do token gated boost and to me boost protocol is the future of paid ads it's the future of web 3 marketing uh Instagram and Tik Tok are still going to exist and we need to serve those audiences differently much like a lot of the great if you look at pudgey Penguins they've done probably the best job of this of any of any project and I think generally Crypton native people are an amazing audience to start with because they are just people that are earlier on the adoption curve so whether or not your product requires a whole lot of crypto knowledge people who are in this space are very likely to be earlier adopters so they're a great place place to start but I think the real test of these products is can you go beyond that like both these guys were just saying and reach beyond the Crypton native early adopters who are often your best Advocates because they're excited not only about the product itself but the technology it's built on so they're amazing Advocates and can you use those to then go beyond that and get to the rest of the world um you know we're beam is this payments product we're at this conference that is full of just crypto people but we went around and we got you know about a dozen places in Denver to accept payments on beams there's a coffee shop and a cupcake store and a knife shop and all these places that you can go right now and pay with usdc pay with stable coins and these are not Crypton native people but they're excited because they got the pitch from us because we are Crypton native people we're early adopters and we're evangelizing and saying this is better there's no credit card fees people want to pay with this why not offer this additional payment method these people say yeah sure some of them say no obviously but some of them say sure and that's how that starts so I think it it's great to start with the Crypton native people we shouldn't be afraid of doing that just because we eventually want to reach the the rest of the world they're just a great bootstrap audience yeah that that makes sense and when you're thinking about the the infrastructure to un board both crypto Natives and mainstream consumers what what is the stack um do you have different options for different types of users um can you talk through kind of what is the infrastructure stack that that is empowering your app and we can start off with Justin yeah um you know because we started Crypton native you know our our app and it currently is this way you know you very simply create a you you log in with your wallet and by connecting your wallet you know that gives you access to your user account all of your your assets you can use that to buy sell create um but now you know to go more mainstream a little bit wider Beyond just crypto native um what we're looking at is introducing a more frictionless ux I think that's really the key is creating a really frictionless way for users to interact with your product interact with your app and the reality is um most of the world they still don't really understand uh everything that goes into creating a wallet and really how how blockchain Works um and so now there are many different options that make it really easy for you to um uh really abstract that you know wallet uh you know account Paradigm that that you know ownership away from it and just uh create a simple email login or web2 off login uh so we're looking at introducing those into our app to make it a little bit easier just to onboard more users uh which I think is great not just for non- Crypton native but Crypton native as well I think at the end of the day we all just want a really easy and friction list user experience so I I don't know if a lot of people think about iyk as infrastructure but for us we're really excited about I think about as physical infrastructure that can actually blend what we're doing on chain and the digital world and what's happening physically so for us what we did we we sold a hoodie for one of our artists named angel baby that hoodie came with a chip and everybody who received that hoodie was able to scan that chip get a piece of exclusive music and then we've actually been able to continuously release unreleased music to those people before it comes out and now we have artists reaching out to us who want to do a remix of the song that the hoodie was attached to drop it as an nft through our hoodie and also give people Early Access to their song through our hoodie so iyk doesn't get talked about necessarily in the infrastructure world that much but we're really excited about these kind of physical infrastructure chips that can merge digital onchain activity with things that people actually do in public when they're going to a music festival a fashion show lined up at a club uh 90cc has done a great job of this in the fashion world with network points and you actually get incentivized for how much you're representing the brand uh outside of your home so that's the that infastructure is really interesting for a company like us that's trying to proliferate in mainstream culture a little yeah and for us when you log into beam you use your X account or your email and it's really simple the same as every other service I think there's kind of this this uh view of crypto as this esoteric technology that requires very specific ways to interact with it and it's almost like this mystical thing of oh crypto is is is hard by definition but the reality is I don't I don't actually think it's that different from any other new technology when you think about you know llms this brand you know huge new technology that has taken the World by storm that is incredibly complex technology but nobody questions the fact that when you sign up for chat GPT you just log in with your email and yes if you want to go under the hood and get into the guts of it you can go to the the open AI playground and interface with the API and really get into the nitty-gritty of it but that's only if you want to we just hide the the complexity of these Technologies behind very simple things like login with your email account and then interact it with a chat interface in the case of chat GPT and my view is that crypto is really the same same thing use familiar user patterns for people and then if they want access to more you can give them that so in beam when you on-ramp funds to beam you do it with your debit card really simple but if you are an advanced user and you want to connect a wallet and deposit funds that you have from another wallet sure we let you do that too but that's not the default option and so I think we as an industry at this point we have the tools to abstract a lot of that complexity away from people we just need to do it and not act like this is some technology that for some reason is so much harder to use and everything El it's just another piece of technology and then let people get into the guts of it if they really want to amen um so to I guess to expand on this um obviously we've had a lot of technological innovations over the past few years that are making these possible right um like iyk was only founded a few years ago let's say um what what are the problems that still need to be solved like what in consumer on boarding is is still a problem and we don't have a solution I think one big thing for for people is uh the one of the beautiful things about blockchains and crypto technology is their immutability right you can trust this Ledger when something happens it's not reversible it is like this permanent permanent record and nobody else has control over your funds right this is a really powerful thing that nobody else can move your funds from a wallet that you control from a non-con wallet you control but this comes with a huge downside what happens if you lose the password effectively what happens then and you know with my bank if I lose the password well I just call my bank up and you know tell them who I am and maybe I have to submit some documents or something but they give me access to my account again even if I've lost the password and I think we've built good off flows for crypto so logging in and creating an account that's fine I don't know that we've really seen truly excellent recovery flows or if not recovery Flows at least truly excellent education of users about what what's actually at risk and how careful they need to be about these things and how they need to think about it because it is at some level a new mental model you just have to educate people about that doesn't mean you can't build flows that mirror what they're used to in other products which is what I was saying before but it does mean you have to put in the work to actually make that happen so for me I think recovery of these noncustodial wallets and making that really seamless is a problem that I haven't seen solved really really well yet uh I I think kind of following up on that insurance is a is something that really hasn't been solved and if it if somebody is solving it it hasn't been solved in like an integrated way where I sign into metamask and I see quotes of how I can get insurance on my wallet and can just like one click pay and now have insurance on it I think most other really expensive things or when you have something really expensive you're able to really easily access insurance for that product and the fact that you there's not a really simple way integrated with our wallet Solutions and a really easy provider for that uh to to get insurance on these assets that we're all holding is is a big loss and I think if you know we're going to on board a billion people those types of integrated Insurance Solutions are going to be critical yeah I can think of a few things um one that there are many different chains now emerging and we all have assets that are across all these different chains and I I know I think there are actually a few products a few like really talented folks that are working on this issue of like how do we Bridge all these assets and have them all in one place but I I think about assets living in these different places um I also think about uh this is unique to what we're building with metaverse and gaming but I think about the speed of transactions and also the cost and again you know I know like certain Chains It's much it's far far cheaper than ethereum obviously and faster as well um but you know it's still not as fast as like for example if you want to build a truly onchain game to build an onchain FPS is impossible right now you can do something like a realtime strategy game um but you know we really have to get to a point where transaction speed is far far faster uh in order to actually have a a truly onchain gaming experience for something that requires like milliseconds um so I'd say that's another big issue if you're thinking specifically about um gaming and one thing I've noticed is that there's been a shift towards mobile for Consumer apps I know there's also new distribution platforms I know um you know we've talked about foraster uh what I guess where are you both um able to access your product right now and where are you sort of marketing or Distributing it right now uh well Mona is web first so you can visit monoverse uh on any desktop web browser and jump into an immersive experience on mobile device uh we actually lean into what uh you know what mobile does best um and we found so far that rather than immerse someone in an immersive experience on a mobile device we focus more on augmented reality for mobile so if you go to monoverse you can actually interact with assets using AR through the marketplace you can actually drop them into your world and start moving them around and doing different things with them um and so we sort of like we want to lean into Mobile more where uh it can provide a better user experience um and then beyond that we're also building for the Apple Vision Pro which is um you know a sort of mobile but obviously it's a wearable device uh and we can talk about that in a little bit but yeah I would recommend you know if you're building a product um you know really leaning into what you can do uh the best with you know that that you know and and hardware and for us you know immersive worlds on the desktop look really great for mobile it's more about augmented reality uh so we have a platform you can sign in and our artists will ask questions like what should my next single be what should the album cover look like and that site and experience is mobile friendly but one of the things we realize is if you're bringing people there and they're coming off of let's say Instagram uh and they get there a lot of those people probably don't have a wallet and a lot of those people probably want easy email signup so one of the big unlocks for us in the last four months has been able to be able to provide that easy email signup and use Crossman in the backend to create a wallet for them they have no idea that they have a wallet they have no idea that their assets are being stored in wallet but if they ever you know go down the the rabbit hole and they want to access those assets uh it's all set up for there and it's all using web 3 in the back end so I think those types of wallet Solutions have been huge for for people and companies like us who want to Target people on through their mobile experience yeah and beam is a is a website it's just beam. Eco you can go to that website and you'll have a beam wallet instantly and it's been really interesting at this conference we've experienced this before too people come up to our booth they ask us what we are we say beam Global venmo really seamless peer-to-peer payments product and everyone not everyone but a lot of people's reaction is oh I don't want to download another app I've got enough Wallets on my phone already and when we say oh it's it's actually not you don't have to download an app it's just a website people say wow that's that is the experience I want to have initially now I do think that people when they get deeper into these products often want a native app to have that kind of persistence on their phones so we'll be able that and we'll offer that to people but the experience of just onboarding these products on web I think is really compelling for people and so you you can find me after or come to the booth or whatever we've got these QR codes that have money on them where you scan a QR code and it pops up in your mobile browser and says someone sent you $5 you want to claim it and you hit claim and all of a sudden you have $5 you can go buy a taco with or buy a coffee with or buy a cupcake with or whatever it may be and I think that seamlessness is is really powerful if you limit these products to just being on desktop or requiring a download or anything like that the friction bar is so much higher for people and you can lower that initially by just making it really good in mobile web and thankfully a lot of crypto's uh foundational infrastructure has been built with web in mind because for a long time the app stores were not friendly and still arguably are not friendly to crypto native products and so a lot of technology has been built to make building on mobile web really really easy and so I think that's a great place to start for these products cool and and Justin I would like to hear more about this apple Vision Pro uh app um so yeah how does that compare to mobile and and web browser experiences where do you see the arbr crypto intersection going in the coming years yeah that's a great question um so Apple Vision Pro for those who haven't heard of it it is a wearable device that lets you experience virtual reality augmented reality or really um they're quoting the term spatial Computing um and really it's it's it represents an entire paradigm shift for what the future of computing looks like but also uh what the future of the internet looks like um you know today we have been most accustomed to interacting with the world's information with connecting each with each other through 2D interfaces um via web browser and web pages um but now you know if you get Your Hands On A Vision Pro you get a glimpse into what the next 10 20 years are going to look like where uh we start to break information content and social interactions out of the 2D context and into 3D uh into an immersive context into the world around us and so for Apple Vision Pro Mona is actually building an app that lets you uh interact with all of your digital assets that you hold uh that lets you interact with 3D assets it it'll do the best set where you can actually pull them out of your wallet out of your user account and drop drop them into your world where they can persist and you can share them with friends you'll be able to add interactions and um do a lot of really fun and exciting things with it and uh we really see this as the future of computing but also the future of social interaction um and content creation as well and so it'll be a really exciting first glimpse into what you know that next 10 years are going to look like uh and again you know it is still really really early um but uh this all goes back to I think that first question of why web 3 again we're living in an increasingly digitally native immersive world uh spending more time inside of these immersive settings and so uh for these assets that we we own and interact with and play with uh to be on blockchain where you can actually prove that you own them is just going to be increasingly important over these next 10 years yeah I'm super super excited to to hopefully try that app soon um so Andy in the in the payment space um with stable coins with crypto payments uh um I think we're seeing a lot of kind of momentum and growth there what do you see as the primary use cases now and in the next you know decade and where does beam play in this landscape yeah I mean stable coins are exploding right now everyone they're being used all around the world and I don't know that in the United States we have as much visibility into it as as we would if we were looking elsewhere in the world which I think is really powerful um we're seeing a couple of really big use cases for stable coins one of them is the kind of very obvious long awaited you know 10 15 years in than making crypto powered remittances where people can send money across Borders or make payments across borders whether remitting money to family or friends or making crossb payments at merchants or otherwise with stable coins and much more efficient infrastructure if you go and look at these giant crossb payments companies PayPal is a great example of this the amount of money that they make off of foreign transaction fees and foreign exchange fees is ludicrous it is a insane amount of their revenue because they know that they have very little competition but now that competition is coming in the form of stable coins I think it will make crossb Commerce and remittances much more efficient for people the other really interesting angle we're seeing for stable coins is people globally who want access to Dollar denominated financial services so there are people who are all around the world and they want to save and spend in dollars but their local payment infrastructure does not enable that and this might be because they have a bad currency it might be because it's tough for them to easily move in and out of the currency that they currently use there's tight Capital controls or otherwise people want access to to Dollars globally and stable coins are an extremely effective way for them to get access to uh to Dollar denominated financial services and so that's what we're seeing from people wanting stable coins just a really efficient settlement mechanism uh for payments anywhere in the world whether within a country or uh or across borders and beam's enabling both those we certainly have people who use Beam for remittance type use cases but the use case that we're really seeing growing quickly is people in places who want access to Dollars and want a really seamless payment experience with dollars and we can provide that for them with this non-al wallet uh using stable coins super super helpful um to to go more in detail into that um I would also like to hear more about uh David when you say that you're you're enabling fans to kind of participate in the creation of the music um that's happening on Hume like how is that happening how does that compare to you know traditional music that maybe the fans are less engaged in the creation process so so the way we traditionally there's a record label and there's like usually what actually happens is one guy artist will make a bunch of songs and the artist might think something should there's a great example of this with Eminem Eminem uh makes the whole Marshall matters LP and he it's really dark if any of you remember that album very dark album and the label heads were basically like we're not going to release this album as is and the last song he had sent they were like we need a single he sends them the way I am and they're like no this isn't it so they get in a big fight eventually cuz he's M&M and has that kind of clout they were able to get it through obviously the way I am was a massive song it wasn't too dark and the label heads were wrong uh so when we were thinking about this for virtual artists we were like the fans know best the fans know what they want and the fans know uh they're they're the ones that are going to drive the initial consumption of that song At first especially like you were saying blockchain native people crypto native people are very passionate when they have Early Access to something so when we built this platform if you've collected nfts from our artists if you have the Hume Genesis nft you're able to go through a token gated experience listen to two in many case it'll be two songs that haven't been released yet and decide what that single should be and when we get that signal of like what this single should be from our fans directly who are literally invested in this artist they've been collecting music from this artist from the beginning that is way more powerful than me or Jackson who I work with uh sitting there and being like yeah we're going to release uh whatever song next I'd much rather have an experience where our fans are telling us that cool um so I I would like to hear what you guys are most excited about in consumer crypto um this year like what trend or what are you watching that the audience should pay attention to yeah I can I can jump in I mean I think a couple things for me one is a meta thing that I'm really excited about which is like Mona and Hume companies building on this technology not describing themselves as crypto companies building crypto products but just companies building products for users which I think is a long time coming like we've been going I don't know about you all but I've been going to these industry conferences for a long time now and when every company describes themselves describes themselves as a company building on this technology rather than a company building for some type of user or some actual consumer or someone who wants to use it it just doesn't make you feel good about the future of it because the the way to make a successful product is to have a user Focus to actually think about who you're building it for and build it for them rather than think about the technology you're building it on which might be really cool it might be worth talking about you know W with your team or you know whoever but just getting to a place where these companies are actually talking about themselves as I'm building for this type of person is really exciting and I feel like I'm seeing that now and now more and more companies that happen to be building on this technology describe themselves not by that but by what they're actually actually building and the second thing I would say is I just feel like we're finally at the moment where for a lot of reasons consumer crypto is actually possible the proliferation of rollups and alternative l1s and l2s that are fast and cheap is a huge Boon to that account abstraction on ethereum being live as of eth Denver last year is a huge Boon to the the experience you can start to build for people and so it feels like a lot of the foundational technology that we've needed to get to Consumer crypto being viable for people beyond the earliest adopter is here and now we just have to go and build those really great experiences for consumers and compete in the marketplace of ideas and that's a much more exciting place to be than being crippled by the technology yeah to quickly build on that you know I was around in 2017 I'm not a a Dev there there was only so much I could do now if you have a consumer idea that infrastructure's been built out and I can actually have an idea of like okay we're going to use hoodies as a way to directly engage with fans we're going to uh someone can go out and create a fashion company that has an entirely new way of engaging with the people who are building that brand than what was possible 5 years ago cuz the fees were too high you it was too confusing getting a wallet those two things on their own are why it's going to be possible for culture to come on chain and if culture comes on chain you have everybody from a 14-year-old going to a concert to a someone in their 40s who or buying a really expensive piece of luxury clothing getting Trojan Horse into coming into this ecosystem um yeah definitely really excited for um uh different chains where you can they actually enable faster transactions cheaper transactions that enable more ed cases specifically for gaming really excited for uh crypto gaming um and specifically for what we're doing really excited for more use cases in spatial Computing augmented reality uh and for people to see the value in 3D assets uh coming up this year okay awesome I I think that's all the time we have um but yeah it's been really great to to to have this panel together today thank you so much thanks [Applause] everyone