Full Stack Decentralization Now - Bangkok 2024

[Music] so how's everybody's a founding in the Commons going you having a you having a great FTC is that what we call it now FTC yeah that sounds great cool everyone's really Lively after lunch all right just to get a sense of the crowd how many people know an actively validated Services I've ever heard this term before okay basically no one that's okay I planned on this assumed that no one would know Technic that much technical stuff all right how much how many people have heard of web assembly before okay slightly better than actively validated services but it's okay there's a lot of there's some high level technical stuff in this talk but I also try to mix it with a lot of low-level crazy um that will hopefully keep it interesting for audiences of all ages and Technical abilities are we actually studying or um cool all right well today I'm here to talk about full stack decentralization now my name is Jaye harell uh some people know me from the cosmos ecosystem started a couple of Cosmos blockchains made this uh Dow called dowdow which a lot of people like use for governance and stuff and now I'm working on this project called layer and you know shit's really boring in crypto like we like how many more evm L2 clones are there going to be out there like you know it's more fragmented liquidity great like how do we get to like you know more interesting stuff again great I've been in crypto for a while I've been in crypto long enough to remember this a treat tweet is from Kristoff who was like you know helping out with ethereum in the early days uh and it was the original Tech vision for ethereum right all communication P swarm for Big Data because they were thinking about oh maybe we want to build like I don't know decentralized social applications or whatever there was whisper for small messaging so like you could have like message passing that's not onchain message passing and then of course like a blockchain for smart contract interactions and it's like what's crazy is this is like from 2015 and they're thinking about how how we could actually build full stack decentralized apps right and this is back when everyone was like leaving the ethereum hypers stion of let's decentralize Uber let's replace social media with like collectively owned social media I mean I think let's stream again I think the tech has come a long way we should get back to those 2015 2016 ethereum Vibes um and yet today it's hard to build truly full stack decentralized applications like even if you're on salana you can't build decentralized Uber smart contracts don't have enough compute how are you going to do compute over ride matching or these other things right um same thing for a lot of decentralized social apps right right like realistically a lot of apps these days like and don't get me wrong I love smart contracts I love blockchains I think they're vital and useful but they can't do everything right they a really good tool um and so we we need more like offchain compute and I'm not going to go too deep into actively validated services but it's kind of this like one it's one of the many like new uh metas that's out there right now in the crypto world it's pretty Advanced there's projects like Anan layer symbiotic Babylon uh like Cosmos people doing stuff like um there's a lot happening in actively validated Services all you need to know is that actively validated services are like validated offchain programs right that might be running like a machine learning workload or an actual server or making a network requests like um you know so like we need more than just smart contracts like what we really need is like actually the stuff you need to make decentralized applications right we need like decentralized serverless functions we need decentralized like ZK Prov marketplaces and networks we need file and data storage we need like decentralized GPU and all the stuff these are all like actively validated services like kind of like sort of categories right maybe we can come up with a better word than actively validated Services let's just call them programs they're like decentralized programs that are running um and we'll get more to intelligent protocols later I think I could see the eyes glazing over so I think we just we need to we need a demo and so uh previously I used to work on this project called Dow out and we've been using working on making a service to create like an a dow controlled AI agent and so what's H Happening Here is this is an nft Dow and there's a bouncer right and so the first things the user does is like connects a wallet um and like it checks there whether or not they have a certain nft right and then they connect a different wallet and they have that nft and it like ask them some question as well right and basically there is a like like an llm model that's running behind this right that is controlled by the Dow the Dow votes on what the policy should be like these are the things that we want in order to let in new members and then it just like automatically goes and Carry Outs carries out that policy right um so instead of voting to add every new member we vote on what the policy for new members should be if you have a public nouns or a bad kid and if you have one of those nfts great you get extra points right um if you like radio head more points right like people are just like distilling their wishes down into something that can be like executed by like an AI agent right so this is like an example of like some interesting things we can start doing with like services like how can we make smart contracts more intelligent right like uh and I think that a lot of that comes down to things like composition like being able to uh compose a smart contract but then also like um yeah anyway this is all really hard stuff to talk about for Less technical audiences how how am I doing everyone's confused amazing cool um we have some more demos I think these are cool if you care about things like reaking or igen layer we've been making a in fact we're really really trying to kill the word reaking you should thank us I think I like um we're we're big fan of commitments like at the end of the day we don't need to get too much into res like our whole deal is just like commitments um you commit to locking up some tokens for X reason with like X potential rewards and X potential risk um it's a long topic um but basically you know one of the things that we're trying to do to make this more accessible is like no one cares about infrastructure like infrastructure does not exist if there's no UI for it so we're trying to make as good of UI as we can for this right so you can like easily like make new actively Valu services and upload your wdom components and they start running or uh you can manage a bunch of stuff it's a I'll keep going this is also my first talk I've ever given on this so thank thank you all for um bearing with me um cool um so what we're building at ler or our first product is called wavs I'm still working on how best to yeah how best pronounce this and really what that means is it's Wy and abs and we just took those two things together and we made wavs um but what it is is like it's a Wy run time uh which I'll get to for building these offchain programs right these like AI agents figured out or maybe you want like a custom Oracle you know we've been talking with the ecological institutions folks is like they want to have a program that's running that's going to get satellite data right and then do some decentralized machine learning over that satellite data to compute like a green score right like oh the trees like grew this much or whatever I don't know and then mint some EOS tokens as result as part of like you know this like automated like process right um and so yeah like our goal for this is like let you make these applications with ease um and really the key technologies that we have here like we're not really Reinventing the wheel um is we're just like using the latest and greatest of web assembly and web assembly system interface um and you can think of web ass as like it's it's a VM uh it like just like the evm you guys guys know the evm or okay all right well uh the great thing about web assem is it runs everywhere even inside of your browser one of the best things we can do to like decentralize the web is make it so we can run things ourselves you know if you want the best terms of service you know run it yourself you'll you'll never get better terms of service than that um like and then Wy is like another extension of web assembly that allows to access deeper system level functions so if you can kind of think of like w WM is like the binary right the that runs it and the great thing about it is you can write in many different languages we even have some python examples at layer so you can just write like a little python Oracle a little um very quickly um it supports rust in many other languages we love rust um it's very optimized it's very fast it runs everywhere I think that's really the key piece of why web assembly is it runs everywhere like even on your phone and distribution really matters right like if we're going to like you know actually build full stack decentralization decentralized protocols we're going to need web Technologies um and then web assembly web assembly is like the really cool new kid on the Block um and basically this gives us access to like low-level system functionalities like oh Jake we don't need another VM can evm or move like make Network calls can evm or move do GPU processing can evm or move like like access file storage or random gen generation or IO or any of these other things that no they like that's the great thing about Wy right and we let you build a Wy layer on top of your chain we're starting with ethereum and then we'll go from there um and yeah the key point is like why web assembly matters even if you didn't understand any of this technology decentralized Technologies matters because then you can run it on your own right and then if you run it on your own you're going to get a better terms of service than if you just like Outsource that to some middleman who's going to steal all your data and then train an AI off your personality and not pay you for it um but really like why people are excited about web assembly is it's like it's like a much better technology than Docker and everyone's like building well docker's great don't get me wrong do Docker has a role but like if we look at the size of like containers right the size of the actual like program like Docker you have to package in a whole Linux operating system in there right um so like web assembly is a lot faster also in terms of things like startup time so starting up a Docker container you have to boot a whole Linux operating system right whereas the wum code is literally just the the executable that for the function you care about um Docker doesn't run in the web browser um like w WM has just like the best crossplatform kind of support um yeah I know uh don't take my word for it take the founder of Doc Docker you know he's a he's pretty big fan if Wy W and Wy existed in 2008 we wouldn't have needed to create Docker that's how important it is um so this is our product and it's called wavs and it's a Wy runtime for abss um and the cool thing about this is you might have heard of this is very unless you are really steeped in abss and reaking and I layer and stuff like you don't most people just don't understand how cool this is but like basically the idea is you have one ABS you deploy one ABS on Aon layer it takes some work to deploy an ABS you have to recruit a bunch of eth validators to run your software and basically opt into it right so if you wanted to do this every time you deployed a new piece of software that would be really annoying and so really the key Advantage here in the one that um our friends at aan ler and symbiotic and other places are excited about is that like you basically run one ABS that's running the Wy run time webs and you can just keep adding dynamically these new components right you could be like oh you know regen Network or like regen coin on ethereum we want to add a new custom Oracle or we want to add a new machine learning process and you have some sort of governance like I don't want to over complicate things too much but you might have some sort of governance process right where like uh the regen Dow votes on adding this new component or new server and it just starts running right um like the other like yeah and at a high level like we're just like building on top of like really great things like ref um like um an revm and igen rs and we have our like been also rolling this custom uh WM time VM uh we will support our initial chains so this is going to be uh we're going to have this production ready in q1 and initially we're going to support ethereum uh and then op stack based chains but shortly after we're going to be adding support for like many other things and if you have a project or chain and you would like have your own sort of crazy compute environment on top of it a Wy layer on top of it I would love to talk with you [Music] um oh no amazing um cool how much how much times do I have left cool sweet um but like we have to take things like next level and one of the things that we've been working on that I'm not sure if many teams have been working on the AVS space is like really thinking about composition you know these services are great just by themselves right if we have that AI agent service or a decentralized llm service or a decentralized inference service like that's great but what's even better is if we can compose that with other services right and one of the things that the web assembly component model has is composition built into the system and so we've actually been that's kind of how the example I showed you earlier worked right where you were there was like some onchain event right um and then that like triggered like a bunch of stuff to happen um we can think like this is what intelligent protocols really are is like how do we compose many of these on and offchain components in ways that are reactive verifiable and onchain um like in this example like there might be a swap event right like on a DEX or something then you might have a uh an AVS an actively validated service a program that's like listening for to the chain right it's like it's now aware amazing and then it it goes and checks the prices of like other assets right passes those off to some model right and then maybe that generates some ZK proof or maybe it figures out some like intent kind of thing I don't know it's like at the end of the day I think composition is like super undervalued and I'm really excited to be um thinking about how we can comp these things into intelligent protocols great um and then in the future we're working on even crazier stuff which I just to save later for anyone who wants it um I want to leave a little bit of time for questions but I guess as a final Point like we should not be satisfied with the state of the decentralized web we're like we have a lot farther to go and we have to move really fast really quickly because other Technologies other you know crisises that we're facing in the world are moving very fast right um and so yeah I don't know even if you don't want to use this stuff please uh at least uh join us in the decentralized web Maxi movement um and if you want to find out more it's like layer. XYZ or come talk to me and uh we'll we'll build cool any questions cool so I guess my question is about the having people vote on the vibe check at the at the outlay of your demo and having that Vibe check be something that gets voted on um I guess my question is around like has there been some thought put into like hey who's your favorite you know band that it's inclusive in terms of what data sets are going into the air yeah I think that's that's a great question and the the cool thing about that is I'll go go back to it is like the Dow like that group sets what the policy is right and so it's up the group may not necessarily be super diverse and I say that cuz like maybe I like Bob Marley or you know Lauren Hill is that g to am I going to pass the vibe check no right yeah well you don't want to even be in that group anyway because groups that don't like diversity are just like not as based and they're not as cool and they don't go to as cool of parties and there's probably no women at their like you know events and like you know those like we can look down on those people and we can judge them right um you know this make your Dows like Lauren Hill is all I'm [Music] saying I mean yeah I mean it does like it's an example to start discussion um some of our other demos that we're working on are like really cool Dynamic nft examples where we have like nfts that like evolve as other things just start happening on chains um you know I think uh I think that actually like you know we were talking a lot about like the ecological institutions use case and how we can like build like Hive minds of collective intelligence and have like many different inputs into decision decision makings right yes I guess my only my only concern is like there's a great book called The new gy code by real which talk about how AI models okay so plug there's a great book called the new gym code by ruha Benjamin that talks about um when AI models leave people out and so specifically for things that require Vibe checks that get voted on by other people I just want to flag it not as like a direct challenge to you because I think this is great but just as a reminder that like AI can't necessarily do everything yeah totally I mean I think my challenge is also like let's just make it better like um let's make AI more more based you know we can either like there's technologies that are happening right and we can either be steering the Technologies with our politics right and our values or we see the territory and these other come in and make the world a shitty place so seize the means of production don't just sit back and complain let's like make a more based AI that is trained on indigenous grandmas that want to like give us their Collective wi wisdom and we will all like have fun chatting with them awesome I love that I love that thank you so much [Music]