Fireside Chat I Joe Lubin, Consensys, and Kartik Talwar, ETHGlobal | Pragma New York 2023

Up next I want to bring up Joe Lubin. You may know him as the founder of ConsenSys and co-founder of Ethereum. And we're going to talk about a lot of things that are happening in this space from like a very high level on how we're thinking about the opportunity of this Ethereum ecosystem and overall how all of you can get involved if you are not directly a developer on on Ethereum. We're going to cover a bunch of these things and sort of what ConsenSys doing and you may have heard of a lot of their products like MetaMask and Infura. We're going to talk about what the future of those products looks like.

And without further ado, let's welcome Joe on stage. Hey everyone. Thanks Cody. I'm excited to to have another chat with you here in public. Um a lot of my questions are very high level so we're we're going to keep things simple and easy.

So let's start off with the SEC. Good joke. No, but actually seriously, how do you how do you think about this this crypto versus government battle? We've seen a lot of that heat up in the last few months and and something we've been seeing over the last decade. Any kind of long-term thoughts on where that nets out or how do you sort of see that evolve?

Yeah, so to keep it simple, we were more worried a few months ago. We are less concerned now. Um Why is that? So the the executive branch in the US is interested in slowing or killing crypto for national security reasons. Essentially the US runs the world, so they believe and they run the world through intermediaries, especially financial intermediaries.

Our technology is all about uh um having a new trust foundation and removing the need for intermediaries in many cases or right-sizing the amount of power and extraction of value of intermediaries in in other cases and uh that's effectively incompatible with the way um the leaders of the United States prefer to run things. Not incompatible with the the American experiment I think which favors things like uh um free speech entrepreneurship all those other hunters to make things better. Open markets uh um free market capitalism even which we don't really have in the United States um and um so they're they're going to do what they normally do when any new technology emerges that they have to capture that they feel they have to capture so internet web cryptography SSL altogether exactly and so so they'll overreach as much as they can and the the legislative branch of government will split 50/50 to to some degree and they'll battle it out a little bit and we're seeing clear heads prevail in in the judiciary um as one would expect and so we'll we'll get um unbiased breeds of the laws and um scrutiny of behavior of different agencies um um the Supreme Court is is um looking like they're not pleased with how certain agencies are behaving um so there's this this notion of uh deference to agencies meaning hey, the agencies are SECs, et cetera, are experts. Uh, they must be good people. Uh, they obviously know what they're doing.

Um, we're going to give them leeway to make rules. And and the Supreme Court is uh, recently pushing back on deference and uh, so maybe eliminating that approach to to how um, the judiciary uh, deals with the with them. So, um, the Ripple XRP uh, ruling was very favorable to centralized exchanges and and wallets uh, and anybody who cares about uh, doing things with tokens. Um, we were concerned that that there might be um, FUD rulings um, uh, Gary would would wave his his arm and declare all tokens uh, officially illegal according to the SEC and uh, uh, and that would be uh, a bit problematic uh, for our business at MetaMask. Um, it wouldn't be catastrophic because we're in nearly 200 countries around the world and so we would um, we would lose a a decent chunk of our revenue, but but we would um, continue to operate and and we'd emphasize other places.

Um, so bottom line, we can uh, as an ecosystem, we can continue to operate globally and in the US. Um, kind of unfettered uh, with much more attention to um, rigor around decentralizing things because when things are decentralized, then they uh, uh, Securities Exchange and Centralization uh, Control Commission, um, you know, that's what they're there for. Centralization is something that needs to be regulated uh, and uh uh as long as we design as we should uh and execute as we should in our ecosystem then uh the SEC can't do that much uh in uh in a sane world. Now, so that that's help. Um do do you do you think that this was just the the play that had to be in this timeline?

Like it just had to take these many years to figure out how people sort of get more comfortable with understanding what's going on at that the higher levels of the government or is it that is just a one-off case that uh the the Ripple case sort of kind of won the case law here on what the definitions are, but it may not actually mean that everything else is fine, too. Um it So, the timeline's interesting. Uh I and others uh felt at the beginning of this adventure that uh uh we're doing some things that are going to lead to a clash of civilizations. Um so, um one based on centralized top-down command and control trust, the other based on this new invention decentralized trust, and uh uh and they're the incumbents, and they've got the guns, and uh but we got the people. Um and um the the plan, if there was a plan, was to to keep our heads down uh and build and build and build and and see how far we can get um before they really take notice.

Uh and thanks Thank you, Sam Bankman-Fried and and and others. So, they they they So, CeFi uh essentially um made things a little more difficult uh for us uh especially recently. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Uh and so um going forward, I I think uh uh we knew the clash would come.

We knew we had to um land the technology uh in the social legal systems around the world and it'll land differently in the US versus Russia versus China versus North Korea. North Korea loves the technology, obviously, uh for their own purposes. Um and um uh I I think the way it ultimately unfolds is that we um uh recognize that that the old world um has cohorts that need to live their lives uh in the way that they're comfortable, and we need to need infrastructure uh that enables that for another who knows how many decades. Um and uh at the same time our technology can can make the traditional world um operate better, uh offer more options or opportunities. Um and we should um be free to choose to live our lives um more uh to you know, doing things in the um rigorously decentralized space if we want to.

And so those those two pathways of existence should operate in parallel and they'll they'll interoperate. And And I think think it's going to be fine. Hey. I I think that's a very refreshing perspective. Um usually it's a zero-sum kind of statement that that we usually hear uh from both sides.

This is something I think you've spoken in the past about as well, which is, "Hey, maybe the technology should not be super regulated, but the use cases should be." And And this is in a way hoping for that world where, yes, a protocol can live without too many hard-coded rules, but somebody wants to build an exchange on top, they should maybe meet certain requirements where they are. And seems like you're you're in a way forcing for that world to be actually more more possible. Yeah. Um so our a guy named Bill Hughes, our our head of policy at at Consensus wrote a a really crisp um article on CoinDesk.

Uh I think it was called money crypto versus tech crypto, something like that. Um money crypto is Cfi. Um money crypto uh is the exploiters. Money crypto is the projects that uh they use decentralization as a marketing term or tactic. Um Tech crypto um is a group of uh um builders uh who use decentralization as a design principle progressive um moving towards rigorous decentralization.

And so um Cfi, money crypto, absolutely should be regulated. Um it has served some good purposes maybe. Um so it's certainly onboarded a lot more people a lot faster to our ecosystem. That's maybe good. Maybe it was bad in retrospect because we we would have uh been on a an exponential We are on an exponential growth curve.

Essentially, builders come in new wave after wave of innovation um enables us to grow our ecosystem and usability and scalability. Um uh affordable use cases. Um And around that exponential, we've got this thing going. comes full circle So a lot of irrational exuberance, a lot of pain, a lot of irrational exuberance, a lot of pain. And uh uh maybe we we could have done without that.

Uh and you know, how do we how do we do without that? Uh we would have need regulator support. So, where were they when we needed them? Um now they're here and they're trying to to shut down tech innovation. So tech crypto, it's software, it's free speech.

Don't don't regulate innovation. That's dumb. Regulate use cases. Couldn't agree more. This is amazing.

Um well, I I think it does deserve that massive round of applause. Um well, speaking of of serenity, uh um when Ethereum got started, did you ever imagine where we would be right now in terms of the scale? Um and kind of I'm looking at things like, okay, well, we finally kind of managed to to make the merge happen in one of the biggest, if not the biggest, large-scale software upgrade in in the history of software. How do you kind of feel about where we are now in the space? And I guess I'm curious to hear what you think is sort of the next milestone that you personally are excited about for the the evolution of Ethereum as a protocol?

In the history of running software with live monetary rails. Oh, wait. So, it's even even more extreme. Um so, when I read in 2011 the Bitcoin white paper, I assumed we would get here and much further. I assumed it would take a lot longer um uh with the the Bitcoin virtual machine, which is I'm based on four Sorry, what's that?

and and does very few things. Um uh when I met Vitalik and read the white paper, I was really excited cuz hey, now software developers can can build stuff um you know, with tools similar to to what they're used to. Um and it was clear that there would be a clash of civilizations. It was clear to me that the technology was it had characteristics of anti-fragility, decentralization, and it was going to be powerful enough to win in the end. Um, when I got into Bitcoin, I wasn't certain that Bitcoin was going to survive.

Like, I I thought Because of the values or because you weren't sure that the propagation won't happen? It was really fringe and it was attacked and um you know, when it demonstrated its antifragility a couple times, maybe three times, and I was like, okay, uh we're good. And so, I never had concerns about Ethereum. Uh I was past that. Um, those initial doubts.

Um, and it's about landing it in different nation-states and um um you know what it what I said before. Um it is happening uh agonizingly slowly and astonishingly quickly at the same time. It depends uh on your perspective. Interesting. So, we we couldn't have gone faster.

I I don't think. Um, we needed to um build in layers. Uh got a trust foundation. We got a decentralized, democratized finance uh layer. Um, we've got incursion uh crossing the chasm into mainstream culture with with NFTs.

That's disintermediation uh of various intermediaries. There's a lot more intermediaries out there. We're we're going to ping them off uh one at a time um when we start building the application layer apps. Um And that, I believe, depends on the next enabling layer. Uh the next enabling layer, in my opinion, is something that I've been saying for 5 years is is here already.

Um and that's uh it's essentially attestations. Decentralized identity not what I thought you'd say. and reputation systems. Interesting. So, we we we've already got a lot of block space and that's going to sort itself out.

So, we're we're modularizing, we're sub-modularizing, scalability, affordability is coming. Um, we can now build applications that uh would have either broke Ethereum or would have been too expensive on layer one Ethereum. And so, many more use cases are now economically viable. Um, but we need um, we need applications that are built with the user in the center and in control of everything they should be in control of. And so, we need to build um primitives that enable people to assemble their own social graphs and and uh attract applications um publish, subscribe to different social networks.

And uh um, I think we're on the precipice of uh as a company I recently spoke to said, uh their goal is to destroy trillions of dollars of uh social network value in in the Destroy being the operating word. Exactly. It's one of obliterate a bunch of companies and replace it with a a whole lot of social net social graphs that we're in control of. Um, I think this is a very unique take because I thought you would say it's still a throughput and the cost per transaction that the matters. Um, not that I disagree with what you said.

No, we if we have It's like you don't Yeah, it's all for this. Exactly. EAS, a theorem attestation service. We we've got now one called Verax on Linea, our layer two ZK EVM. Uh, we need to incentivize people to establish the root of their identity, DIDs or or some other forms, and then start firing attestations at each other.

We're going to start attesting um to, you know, you work at Consensus, you work on this team, you you So, achieve something and So I think maybe for for the audience here, it'd be useful to understand what is a good framing of thinking about attestations on chain. Everybody thinks it's like a toy or just like a nice to have, but what's a good opportunity and a framing for this? So we um as um as the EAS team recently stated, um we fire attestations at each other all day on Twitter. Um And those are I I I I could say Um it's just proof of any event. I I could say yes, that was that was a great post, Kartik.

Um and that's me from my identity saying something about something else. Um and um if Elon doesn't like what I said, you know, get get rid of that attestation. If he really doesn't like me, I'm gone. If he doesn't like you, um and so we can have that sort of thing. So those attestations are already timestamped, um but Elon could sort of adjust the timeline, too.

And so we want attestations uh that can't be expunged by anybody and identities that can't be expunged by anybody. And so that's why you need a registry for for these this very simple primitive of attestations on Ethereum and other networks. And you think fundamentally this is what enables more applications altogether or more consumer-facing applications? Um Applications altogether, but I think it's a massive unlock to bring developers in to start building uh cool little doohickeys that you can add to your social graph. Cuz now you can bridge anything that's off chain and you kind of have like a proof that this is actually the case.

Interesting. Um Well, speaking of kind of the evolution on another thing, let's talk about consensus. What was kind of the founding reason when you started the company and and what would you say like the the motto and and the goal is now and then kind of how is that changed over time? Um so I worked on the Ethereum project uh for a year and um setting up the Ethereum Foundation uh during that period and um it was about uh like and a lot of people were uh shy of the United States at that point cuz the United States liked to put people in jail uh for creating their own currency. Yeah, if you think things are bad now yeah.

Well, we it was just really uncertain at that point. Uh so there were some you know, maybe criminal projects Liberty Reserve or something like that. remember that? Yeah, um so we didn't want um the United States to uh um to have the FBI waiting for us when we landed JFK and tackle us to the tarmac and make a a a big spectacle of the Ethereum project and so um we set up shop in a in a country that uh uh appreciated free speech um freedom, democracy, things like that, uh privacy uh a little more than the United States did. So that was that was Switzerland.

That was a safe and smart good move at that point in time. And it was a time when when these were serious issues. Uh there was real fear around uh setting things up. Um so ConsenSys started a year in um essentially to continue the vision and mission of Ethereum and uh we didn't know what that meant. Uh essentially it meant to do whatever it took to foster adoption.

We did splashy things. Our marketing was about ecosystem not ConsenSys. Uh we couldn't we wanted to build products. We incubated a lot of projects. We invested a a of product uh product invested in a lot of projects um and um it was a very immature technology and so all these products You had to prove what would be possible for everybody else to see.

Yeah, so there was there were no developer tools. There was no ecosystem really for for a long time and so all that had to bootstrap itself and we played a part in bootstrapping it with things like uh Truffle back in the Truffle, Infura, MetaMask, Diligence uh uh Is that still the goal now or what's on already? So the goal is is really to um bring into reality a much more maybe ubiquitous decentralized future. Uh and so it's about enabling people and organizations of any size to have economic and political agency. Um So it's a it's to achieve the the paradigm shift to decentralization.

When you go and tell this to a potential enterprise what's the reaction for why would they want this or should they actually care? Well, we used to think we used to use the term enterprise to mean something like JP Morgan or Microsoft. Uh now it means something like Compound or Ave or Oh, that's a really good that's a I yeah, I it just clicked. You're right. Um So we speak appropriately to to whomever we're speaking and there's a lot of value propositions in in what we do and we don't need Um radical decentralization for for every use case.

Uh Um radical decentralization has to happen at the base trust layer. Uh we need uh a platform on which organizations of any size uh including the United States and China uh can interoperate even if they're in the middle of disputes or wars even. Uh supply chains uh should keep moving. Um if they want to create a little treaty uh any nation-state uh treaties are kind of uh cuz you can just apparently withdraw from a treaty anytime you want. Uh I did not know that.

That happens all the time. Especially the weapons ones. Yeah. Um so if uh if you have treaties uh written on um an apolitical network uh that nobody can really control um uh then you could put billions of dollars of stake um at stake. There might actually be utility for the United Nations uh at some point uh where it can be an adjudicator of certain things that uh that have real financial import uh to people.

So So we need base trust layer and then DAOs and and and other things can be less decentralized and and if uh uh if a supply chain if Walmart wants their own blockchain their own layer two or layer three or something like that uh it doesn't need to be uh as decentralized but it it's really nice that it can have essentially the full The ability to obtain the full security guarantee of Ethereum. And and I know what we need to get more decentralized uh in the L2 and eventually L3 space but that'll happen. I think that's a really good way to think about sort of what the next decade could look like. Um ConsenSys has given us so many amazing products that kind of help bootstrap a lot of where we are now. Um so I guess I'm curious to hear about maybe more updates on how things are going for certain these products.

So I want to kind of learn more about what's happening with MetaMask and Infura. You kind of talk about the new zk-SNARK layer 2. Let's dive into each of those and give us updates on where they're going. Yeah, so um taking a a high-level view of this, um for us it was about standing up the ecosystem. Uh so we needed to build tools uh that developers could use and do valuable things with.

Uh we we stood up Infura initially uh because we had a whole bunch of teams building their own testnets uh inside of ConsenSys. And so uh some small uh some smart cool people said, "Why don't we have our own testnet?" Uh and then we offered it to the world um at uh before Devcon 2. Um so somewhere somewhere in there. Um and that became um a heavily used resource uh because before that you had to basically run a node um and tell your uh the users uh the I don't know, a billion users of your application to download the Ethereum client and sync it for 24 hours or however long it took uh and then you could use the application.

Um so that was obviously not so viable uh and uh Infura grew up uh constantly trying to stay up to speed um because the changes were complicated and fast. So um we wanted to decentralize Infura early on, but but we were more concerned about performance and and effectively we were comfortable paying the the AWS bills for for the industry for quite a while to to just grow the industry. Um Infura is now um uh progressively decentralizing itself. So, uh we have a bunch of launch partners uh and it's going to happen real soon that uh Infura becomes a uh a federated network initially. Uh so, permissions uh because we need to to make sure everything works uh sort of um load balancing uh at the RPC level.

Um And we think that we think that'll get launched pretty soon. Uh small number of months. That's a That's a big update here. It's a It's a big update. Um not an official update though.

So, uh very very fuzzy language there. Um soon. And uh and then I think that that might last about 6 months, maybe longer. Um we've got uh um protocol design and and our crypto economics team figuring out how to how to properly decentralize all of that. Is this so the value of decentralizing Infura being not one single instance is routing all the traffic or is Yeah, so it'll it'll be more robust, but but same level of performance.

So, we know we can do that now. We can achieve the same level of performance, which was kind of a blocker uh up to this point. Um So, with respect to MetaMask again uh product market fit, um we benefited from uh having lots of users and uh an intense focus on security. Uh so, we just an astonishingly brilliant deep team. Um we've been working on uh our Snaps plugin architecture for lots of years.

It just went live recently. Just went live last Monday, I believe. Um and Snaps uh essentially enables you enables anybody to write um uh we did piece of code uh that you can load at runtime into your MetaMask and you can access any other protocol. So, you can put your Bitcoin, your Doge, your Solana in your MetaMask now, yourself, and you can um, message people. App App developers can message their users and there are transaction inspection tools and security tools that that are already out.

So, we got 34 snaps that that we've diligenced so that we've security audited and it's still a permission system for a little while. It will go fully permissionless and so with both Infura and MetaMask progressively decentralizing, we're nearly at the point where we're not the gatekeepers at all, where any developer can launch their own front end as a snap and and launch their own back end in the decentralized Infura protocol called decentralized infrastructure network, TIN, and that will, I believe, lead to a flurry of developer activity and and just accelerate decentralization. So, in the case of it's very easy to understand and follow how Infura gets decentralized, but in the case of MetaMask, it's the plug-in infrastructure that lets people know that piece and that's the piece that's becoming more open. So, that's one element of progressive decentralization. The other element is is enabling MetaMask core to be um, either fully governed or more heavily governed in a decentralized fashion.

Interesting. I'll have you all have It's It's dangerous though because if There's a lot of side effects. Yeah, if if if the wrong people, you know, the the software supply chain is potentially vulnerable, the the kill chain. We're working with lots of security tools that are trying to set up posts on the kill chain to to protect users from from different kinds of exploits. And so if our priority is security, then we have to decentralize the core very carefully.

Absolutely. But decentralizing you know, anybody can essentially declare MetaMask their product because because they're um their way guarantees their snap is in there. I I can build an application on Mac OS and that's all that's all people see, really. My application for that moment that they're paying attention to it. Um I want to kind of combine one of my other questions with one interesting thing that you did say is you're also working on a on a ZK roll-up as consensus.

Sort of What made that kind of the the thing to focus on for you and and kind of combining this with the second question, which is do you kind of see under the layer two showing up or do you kind of see some convergence in in the near term? Yeah. So we do a lot of R&D. We do a lot of work on things like formal verification, a lot of protocol work. We've written some important EIPs, had a huge role in the merge and and other forks.

And ZK work for a number of years and um our head of R&D said, "Hey, we can do this." So that's why we did it. And uh, we made the decision to do it, uh, which, you know, took resources from other things that we were doing, uh, because, uh, it was critically important to establish, um, a beachhead, uh, in the layer two space, layer three space, um, it was part of I I considered it part of the evolution of the Ethereum protocol, um, to have presence, uh, in in, uh, that region of the Ethereum protocol, uh, the extended metropolitan Ethereum protocol, um, and um, there'll be certain kinds of transactions that happen at layer one in the decentralized future and there'll be lots of layer twos and there'll be lots of layer threes and fours, et cetera, um, I think block space, uh, will break out into different categories, uh, different levels of security, there might be regionalization, uh, perhaps, uh, Switzerland or yeah, Switzerland doesn't like certain data to move across its borders, so it so we're going to need to pay attention to things like that, um, and these different layer two ecosystems, uh, are built on different technologies, similar technology, uh, I don't think anybody wins on performance, um, It's just be table stakes. Right. Yeah, and I and I think we're going to we're going to all like zero in on on pretty good performance for the use cases that that we need to support.

I think we win on philosophy, ethos, and just, you know, the kinds of applications that set up shop, uh, in your ecosystem. And so, um, I was very confident that, uh, that Polygon would set up a whole bunch of layer twos, they're already doing that and and like with Immutable, they're going to have a whole bunch of game layer threes on that and and I figured, uh, that we, um, like Coinbase, we needed our own like home technology and home network and doesn't mean we're not going to do lots of stuff on other networks. We we do a lot of work on on the palm nft network. We do a little bit of work on ethereum and so we'll keep doing that. Awesome.

Um I switch gears a little bit. Oh oh and uh linea is progressively decentralizing like everything we do. We're actually we're on track for all three of these products. Yeah, we're we're working really hard on that. We may we made that decision for regulatory reasons that that we wanted to to we delayed that early on.

We were we're prioritizing other things but we decided hey we should really do what we can to to decentralize prover and also work with other teams to the extent that we can to evolve the the layer two space to be more like the layer one space where you've got a whole bunch of protocol teams that are doing the same thing competing cooperating so ideally it gets a little more homogeneous in terms of access to this block space with uh shared sequencers and and stuff like that. Right. Everything still settles on ethereum but there's multiple ways to do that. we needed to have a voice at layer two so that's why we did that. Well, sort of coming back to regulation again.

Do you think we are closer to having network states? Yes. Um So Zuzalu is a cool example even though they're not really using much technology. I think you can get a zk Zuzalu passport and we've got lots of dials we've got So you define just overall DAO as network states in is this definition or does there needs to be notion of an act? No, it's physical.

Those are just components um, that need to be elements of a network state. Uh, we've got voting systems. Uh, we've got identity systems coming online, Gitcoin passport and what there will be a flurry of attestations, DIDs, and VCs verifiable credentials coming out really soon in a lot of contexts. Um, we've got uh, lots of ways of managing treasury for DAO. We've got account abstraction which is going to be really important.

So whether it's Gnosis, formerly Gnosis Safe, or other tools um, and and treasury management built on top of that. So there's a lot of pieces. Governance is very hard in the old way and we do a terrible job on it in both corporate contexts and government contexts and we also do a terrible job in the crypto Oh, we're definitely covering that soon. Exactly, but uh, we have the potential to uh, to codify things, to improve layer by layer and we're doing it in pretty necessarily open, transparent, and a lot broad way where a lot of people can see, inspect directly, act directly, and uh, be fully involved in the things that they care about. So short short term some bumps, but overall we do see individual network states kind of become more and more common.

It's going to be hard. Governance is hard. It's a lot of lot of people involved. Makes makes difficult. If only we can just not listen to them.

Yeah, the old technique was fewer people. So, it's just just like put all those people down there. We'll we'll tell them that we're going to take care of them and we'll make the decisions and we'll disseminate whatever value we want to. And now we can disseminate value in real time and everybody can watch in real time. And participate and actually make a change.

So, so maybe it'll go fast. Fingers crossed. Well, my last question to you is as I was kind of thinking about what is was an interesting way to kind of ask you this, I realized that most of us have seen ups and downs of crypto, but you've seen literally all of them having been here from from the beginning. So, I guess I'm curious about having been here for over a decade now, how do you kind of generally stay motivated or kind of what gives you that hope that we are going to get to where we wanted to be and what we originally thought of and and any practical advice for people to continue building in this space? Well, it's fun.

A lot of great people. The companies I'm involved with have wonderful spectacular people that I enjoy seeing every day. Um the world is breaking. So, it's important that the world not break. Well, it's important that the world break in appropriate ways and and evolve to to be a better world.

There's a new hot technology on the block AI that will if not properly married to decentralized protocol technology and decentralized governance will likely lead to some weird singularity where somebody gathers a whole lot of talent and a whole lot of compute data and storage bandwidth etc. And they create the most powerful tool in human history for a centralizing power. Um that would suck. And so I I've been spending a lot of time uh looking at projects, talking to people uh about how to to make sure uh that the AI world uh is built in a decentralized fashion. So open-source AI is doing a pretty good job.

Um I don't know that it wins in the end uh without uh um figuring out how to how to um necessarily rely on decentralization. I don't have any follow-up questions cuz this is going to go into way too many deeper topics, but um looks like uh not waiting for us to be doomed is a pretty motivational thing and uh and using that as a way to keep uh keep uh this whole ecosystem going is is not a bad uh strategy. So if that's one good reason, but it's also It's awesome to It's a a privilege. I couldn't agree more. I think just seeing all the amazing things that have come out on a weekly basis for the last 10 years, it still blows my mind that it's still happening.

So thank you for kind of helping start a lot of this and I really appreciate you taking the time. You too. And you've been Thank you. Great fit. That's been so awesome.