London Ethereum Meetup [10/5/2016] : Genesis of Things – 3D Printers on Blockchain

hi I'm Luca I work for cognizant and I want to talk to you about Genesis of things today and we've developed this together with big chain DB and an art alii which is now called energy so you have our three levels up there and hopefully after this presentation to understand why we call it Genesis of things so mainly the topic we're addressing is manufacturing so the key idea is that the future of manufacturing will be the central and we need and it will it will be built upon the sharing economy so the vision is we want to create a shared Factory in the future so the problem we're addressing is I'm actually quite a big one so if you look at the productivity in manufacturing the problem is that the productivity growth rates have been decreasing for over 30 years so you can see that here on these on this graph that for the key countries in Europe and US and Japan the growth rates overall have been declining but in the future you know we are we are facing the what we call the fourth manufacturing revolution so in the future we expect these growth rates to significantly increase again potentially by 10x and this is basically driven by some major technology shifts basically additive manufacturing so 3d printing and that's what we're going to talk about today in our solution it's one of the key drivers then we have other aspects like advanced robotics augmented reality cybersecurity industrial and genetic data simulation so all the advances in these technologies are going to lead to a significant increase of the manufacturing productivity globally and the opportunity space is is quite huge - which can be addressed here and the consequence of this development is going to be that the manufacturing sector is going to move back from the console in Asian countries basically move back home so we're going to have much more decentralized manufacturing micro manufacturing smaller smaller plants closer to the consumer market we're going to have much more mass customization and so multiple products and and much more make to order so so this will be the future of manufacturing and that's the problem really we want to address because this decentralized manufacturing model that we'll see is sort of missing fabric fabric of trust to exchange information IP and and products so that is actually a key issue especially in in the 3d printing sector so the more specific problems we are addressing are these so manufacturing today is pretty much a closed shop so a plant is built within its walls and nobody has access to that so we want to create an open-source manufacturing where anybody can borrow a part of a plant right so that's one thing then we see in manufacturing au which what we call it trust tax so huge costs related to controlling the entire supply chain like good manufacturing practices or having standards having certified processes and then also having certified products that come out at the end of the pipeline so there's a huge cost related to creating that trust for the end customer to trust the quality of the product then we have another big problem which which is supply chain transparency so that's not a given today there a lot of fraud in the supply chains there's a lack of proof of authenticity of the product and and proof of ownership and also resource usage is is suboptimal because of the lack of the transparency in the supply chain and we have another big issue apparently which is IP protection so a lot of manufacturing companies keep the IP within their walls and treat them as their crown jewels and and take care of that nobody has access to the IP which is an issue because it it prevents knowledge and knowledge capital from really scaling up globally and that's one thing that our solution is going to address so what is Genesis of things it's basically a trusted encrypted open platform for the entire 3d printing supply chain so we address this whole manufacturing space first with 3d printing only so we cover the entire supply chain from ordering the material printing the product and then shipping it back out and the complex complex part of the supply chain is really the 3d printing process so generating the IP of how to print the product because just having a design doesn't mean you can actually print it the question is how do you actually print a design how do you create the print parameters of printing something that works that has material properties that make a good product and and that's the IP and they're all 3d printing supply chain so how do you print that and and and that's something that needs to be protected at the same time it needs to scale so you want to monetize your your your digital value which lies in these print parameters globally and scale that up so that's a bit of a contradiction you want to protect the IP at the same time you want to scale it up and that's where a blockchain solution is an ideal ideal solution then another thing we're dressing is the what we call the digital product memory so we say every product has a story so from from cradle to grave where was it created what material were used in the product where did the materials come from what country good country bad country so then how is the product produced what are the specifications you know what are the what's the quality data that went into the product and then the ownership and then also you can add what warranty related information but also social information that give life to a product for example the designers I'll show you some examples of the digital product memory so so basically the digital product memory will provide an authentic record about the product authenticity so authentic because it's on the immutable it's on the blockchain and authenticity of the product so so basically in Genesis of things we connect some key parties in the supply chain so the customers of 3d printed products with designers and with 3d printing services providers so these are the key parties that we connect together in this process so again on the solution as I mentioned trusted encrypted platform the idea is that the the print file that includes the print parameters which are basically the crown jewels will sort of wrap a smart car tract around that and it will become the business so it can globally scale and be monetized on the global level at the same time the IP of that file will stay connected and we'll make sure that end-to-end encryption is there so we're even looking at a solution at the hardware solution based on Intel 2 to put the print file on a trusted and clave on a hardwood ship on the 3d printer digital product memory and talked about that this is basically providing the proven tissa another function is crypto payments and escrow function in the whole process so so basically the payment for the product will get released only once it is printed and shipped out and in the meantime the the amount is on the blockchain in there in the escrow function then another thing is the royalty accounting so we enable even smaller designers to post their designs and get potentially micro royalties or their designs over the over the blockchain so that's another thing that we enable so we've started to get some lead users acquainted to this ideas that we have spoken to some fairly significant industrial companies about this and they've sort of validated that you know this does address a big problem in the industry and we've actually raised a lot of interest with some of these major companies most of them are German actually was manufacturing I'm German okay so this is how it works basically again we have the blockchain solution as the underlined underlying fabric or the the almost like the middleware on which all the actors interact so we have the customers who order select an order product we have the designers who would put their product on the blockchain we have material providers of course who provide the different types of materials for the 3d printing and we have logistics providers also so the next wave will look at the whole supply chain of also looking at telematics integrating that and integrating this logistics providers as well and then of course we have the 3d the micro factory or the shared factory with the 3d printers and the product coming out basically right and here this is sort of based on smart contracts for user configured orders we have the encrypted design and the micro royalty payments to the designers there as part of the solution so a little bit of technology here so this is basically the platform's we're using it's based on aetherium we have we're working with big chain DB where we put our digital product memory we're also using IP FS and Avedon the azure cloud front and developed by angular miss anything into a gateway we have okay QR code printer and we have NFC tags by a riddle encode and that's next part of the presentation gonna be done by oliver us which is also a key component of the solution so this is an open innovation project and we I think we really benefited from talking and in to and involving a lot of really innovative companies in this so cognizant and out of the E is now called energy Dick Cheney be as as mentioned very good technology and then iOS is a world-leading 3d printer company so they're the guys who actually own their printers the for example fuel nozzles for GE are printed so it's one of the few companies who can actually produce printers that create sort of industrial grade products in steel but they're also other printers there are others so we'll get other potentially other 3d printer companies on board on this as well we're working with Intel to provide sort of look at the intent encryption up through the printer with the on the trusted and clave ritalin code so a little much more about that and then we have also connected some companies in the 3d printing services world so 3d your mind who have a solution for an invading 3d printing and and makers own also sort of a 3d printing ecosystem company that we're working with to develop basically the business case and and the business so we have a working prototype for this also we were at DEFCON a couple weeks ago and Shanghai unfortunate we didn't get into the main event but we talked to a lot of people and present it our solution there so it's out there you can actually look at it at Genesis of things calm can't do much with it because you don't have the user credentials but yeah so the plan is really to take this MVP and we've been testing it with our extreme users and we'll will develop a future complete product in the next four months for this now a little bit on the digital product memory which I already explained and this is really important for the manufacturing industry to provide the trust so you you know you need to so if the manufacturing industry has transparency about the entire production process about the materials that went into the process about the quality the the sensor data of how the product was produced the logistical information also is important then you can you can really drive change into the entire manufacturing sector if you have that for imagine having that for all the products in one area you can you can have you have a wealth of information to optimize the production process and to optimize products themselves as well so so that's really important for the manufacturing industry and what we call industry 4.0 with different context information that's being gathered location-based services and linking different assets so the idea of having this digital product memory has been out there for probably six or seven years and it's the core concept of industry 4.0 to really drive smart automation in manufacturing but sort of at that time when so this was sort of created by a guy called Professor the German university and but then the blockchain was not there and so having this on the blockchain on an immutable record to completely change the game and functionality of having a digital product memory so here's an example so we developed this and this is actually the digital product memory of these small cufflinks that we actually print it on iOS printers so over our solution they were ordered and then printed at us they're they're printed in titanium and they have a unique ID and it comes with a QR code so you can scan that in and then you can prove authenticity of this and you can see so this is one piece of information so who's the owner actually that's constant from RWE who couldn't be here tonight and more more information on there I think I have a couple yeah so so for example who or the design is these are actually the real designers of this sort of dice has the etherium logo on it where was it printed and for example of where how was it ship or what work or did the logistics for this piece look like so we've actually done that realized that for for this cufflink and I thought it's sort of an interesting example of really how to digitally represent the physical world and we've created a solution that you can actually touch and hold and your right I don't know what number this is but 47 is pretty good keep it prices will go up our business models so we want we want to create this ecosystem this fabric for 3d printing as a as an open platform so we want to have traffic on it we want people to join in and the ideas to have bolt-on business models on top of that which we will monetize so there is exactly some examples are here so you can have services based on this for the proof of printability so that's an important concept that you know as I said in the beginning having a good design doesn't mean it's printable or doesn't mean it's it's printable in a way that product actually works so you need to provide in your offer of offering a product that's printable you need to provide a proof of principle 'ti and there are service companies who already do that and provide that to different levels so that could be one idea of a sort of a bottom service on this platform print parameter optimization also so there are only companies that take 3d printed products scan them in so you can scan the geometry of the product you can also do a computer tomography and get into the inside but you can optimize these parameters and actually print a better product of the scan so there are people who do that that's pretty interesting and then digital product so certification is a really big thing in 3d printing and a manufacturing probably you need to print certified products by certain industry regulators ok the digital product memory I talked about that then we could have industry specific solutions and and we can also per trade finance on top of this so trade finance in factory so these are just some ideas of bolt-on business models that we would we would use yeah and as I showed you it's a reality yeah and and that's it my name is Alberto Mir I am CEO after we tell encode and oh sorry yes and in this presentation I will I will try to explain you why we do what we do and obviously how we do it so them a twiddle encode we see that there is a problem of identification and authentication of both people and objects and this problem has gone even bigger since you know things have become smart and now they talk to each other and they make decisions often on their own and give you a lot of examples like a health sensors IOT devices wearables high frequency trading etc so from our perspective all these devices they have become now like full active members of a society and we believe that there is in need of a platform for digital governance and policies to make this deal society sustainable so we believe that the blockchain is the solution for this and but we have witnessed also that in the past few years that there is a lot of companies that are trying to safely store digital records on the pub chain that most of the times they refer to physical objects objects on the real world and how they bridge these two walls together is not well resolved there are many companies that are using QR codes pop codes tagging systems NFC chips and as you know all of these systems they are easily compromisable in one way or another you can take a cure code and just peel it off and place it in another product you can just read information is stored into an NFC chip and and so on ok so a tweedle code what we have done is we have we have invested the past three years in creating an unbreakable link between the blockchain and the physical world the real world so basically we have developed what I was talking at the beginning this platform for digital governance and policies and in this environment you can be assured that the product you buys from the spected provenance the IOT device is behaving according to the expected rules and your personal data is used according to your own interests and to do the to do so we have developed what we call the tactic which is an active tagging and token system working like a micro blockchain processor the word tactic derives from the combination of TAC and talking and just simply put together straight to the point and it's a double Hardware authentication and identification system which allows anyone to prove provenance ownership and contract fulfilment so in one side one second here's the tag talk it's not a white paper is not a PowerPoint is a real product already produced and so this will get embedded you sees flexible board I will talk about the properties of this later on and this gets embedded into any physical object and when I mean embedded it's under the layers could be cotton leather wood or wherever it might be or you can get easily attached to it you can easily glue it to it so if someone tries to peel it off the antenna will break and next time the truck dog gets activated it will get destroyed we don't store information or reference into a tag top is as I said this is an active tacking and token system so I talked about attack and we also have the token and the token is also we call it sometimes like the AMOLED ugly amulet so it's meant that anyone can carry it around and only were the attack and they talking they get together physical contact they run a cryptographic process the so-called challenge response mechanism which is a we on real-time is it sends a string message which has to be signed by the private keys of the attack and the token so so if you have a product which has the tag and you have the token you can easily prove that provenance of the product you can prove that you are delay the rightful owner and you can also have access to the extended services or let me put it in another way if you have a product which doesn't have the tag or you don't have the talking it's because it's a fake one it's not an authentic one oh it's because you you're not a legitimate owner and so this system makes it super secure it's a totally new way to build identity systems and it represents the physical objects in a unique way in the digital space regarding well something that is very important also is that in this tactile I mean we are capable to embed into the product itself a smart contract and this make it makes them very convenient this mainly I mean any company which is tacked up to secure its product it also allows to and reach them out also because they can carry on relevant contracts and this makes a lot of benefit not only for our industrial partners but also to the final customer so let me give you a couple examples you can embed into a watch itself for example the right to to have a free service a year or in a worker or work piece of art when the ownership has to change from one person to another or for example in a Health Center who is the one who is allowed to read your information and regarding just now going a little bit more into the physical properties and technical and technical properties tactic is the world first open-source blocking agnostic and are doing environment compatible tagging system this means that we use any blockchain it can be a theorem Bitcoin or ever it might be it's open source because we know that only open sourcing can make this stick this technology pick and we plan to open source this technology in three four weeks and we will capable to release this and sell it through a platform and we are Arduino environment compatible so you will be capable to use Arduino to control to a lot of cryptographic crazy stuff so this means that for example you could use I mean this itself for example to encrypt a decrypt messages from your daily used apps and this encryption and decryption happens off the bus so only the person who gets the key can can have access to the message or you can use it as a key of two for example to access to your computer or wherever it might be I mean I want sure that there will be a lot of ideas and so here's the list of another properties that that the product has and I would like to point out three of them the first of them is that we work we would like an energy harvesting system we don't use battery this means that we work like through induction and it gets power enough to to to power sensors for example and on the other side we are PK is a public key infrastructure comfortable with NFC this is very convenient for the industry and and finally the private key is kept private so the initial interchange of a scope of the keys because when provisioning I mean the key the private key is only known to the hardware is not even known to us to retail and health so when the hard work is provisioned this is then the first time when that crypto chip is initiated and so we we use this for signatures and so I'm going to show you an example here a video and this is a I'm gonna show you a CP this is a CPU and you're gonna see a test of the Arduino compatible driver controlling the crypto chip and also how the crypto chip it's able to write a provisioning data into the on-board NFC it's a little bit homemade sorry the quality so you have to talk to there that's it this is all the technical guys gave me and so as you can imagine this has multiple applications and they can use as anti-counterfeit solution for the luxury market for any product that you want to protect it can be used as an olya machine for the IOT industry you can secure your personal data as I said at the beginning you can have private conversations I mean not anonymous but private conversations and you can innovate in the business in development for example you can use that attack dog to attack a vault where you put for example minor metals gold or whatever and you can sign sign that and introduce the information into the box chain and then create the certificate and exchange them with whoever you want to and with of any value and there regarding the the project we are developing with with our partners here I am cognizant & rwe obviously our product will get I mean is that a product will get embedded into all the products on most of the products that they will get printed with a 3d printers and so we we provide this digital product memory I mean we are capable to ensure that the product is being produced in one place and there is a with the certain and the certain circumstances on the certain specifications and and also to protect the the ownership and in caso to access an extended services and so mainly how this works I mean before manufacturing any product we will deliver our tactics a to the manufacturer to the 3d printers and we then create a multi one multi signature blockchain ID entry for that tactic combining the producer producer ID the ownership ID and the product ID afterwards I mean when the customer gets the product they will get a also together with it so they can hold it at themselves and and anytime they want there I mean having the product with it and by the attack and the token they can prove their the authenticity of the product that they are a legitimate owner and access to customer services and that's it for my site thank you very much I've got to question Damien I've got one question for you it's around quality control so I don't know how you embed that into the process product quality control so when the product is printed out you've controlled all the controls during the manufacturing process you have sensors that are monitoring the manufacturing process right and create data about how the manufacturing process is being executed so that data will go on the digital product memory on the blockchain basically so that's trusted data that's coming directly from those QA devices right and from the source so whoever buys the product will have the original data of those quality devices then monitor the manufacturing process of that specific product you have that even though exactly whether you know there's any tolerances and so forth so it's important for industrial products apparently high tech but also I mean you can it's also important for for consumer products in the end right potentially so we're looking at the industrial products the first yeah and the other question was around the fantastic product that you've created but I was just wondering what is the what is the environment cost of this type of product you know what's not the cost the monetary cost but in terms of producing that at a large scale what could it cost you know to produce it for any any product you know what is it sustainable is it something that you can do yes I mean the price of Phillippe's you mean to produce it in a scale right now the price for the planet Holden the price for the environment okay so this is the question for the factory the question is like nowadays I think we live in a consumer world where the producers of any product they try to reduce their cost as much as possible like a look at Primark like people I go there a lot because products are cheap so the question is how would you motivate or like producers to use that technology because it's cost money right to put these trackers all over the place and also to make shared factories I don't really think it would make it cheaper to produce the product because now you just put it in factory in China and so so how do you think this technology will grow what are the financial like motivation for companies right so this will reduce the manufacturing costs so I mean it's related to the fourth revolution or revolution of manufacturing will significantly reduce the manufacturing cost because of those new technologies 3d printing for example for the 3d printing of a fuel nozzle is four times more productive than producing it conservatively right with with basically you need 20 parts to build a fuel nozzle if you do it without 3d printing and 3d printing it's just one part so the productivity goes up significantly and at significantly lower cost and all the other factors that drive the fourth manufacturing revolution right like Big Data the industrial internet and so forth will also drive down the prices so we'll see significantly lower cost and then also we'll see significantly more participants in the whole manufacturing ecosystem we'll see small companies we'll see individuals who create their own micro factories with one sort of fabricator built by themselves that can connect to this ecosystem and and fabricate products and sell it to the market so it's all going to increase transparency of cost and pricing and increase competition and will lead to significantly lower lower cost in manufacturing actually yeah all right so I have a question for Genesis of things on the on the cufflinks it's my ignorance of how 3d printing works but if you print say a billion cufflinks how do you tell each one apart like are they not all exactly the same if they've been 3d printed well they I mean it's sort of yeah sort of hard to put a unique identifier on a million so for the parts we printed for this showcase which is about a hundred we have a unique identifier on here this is a binary number here on the side but the idea is to have a unique code on the on the code from written code that we would put on products where you can fit it on writing is sort of difficult there are ideas of how you can print a unique code into the 3d printed structure that is machine readable so there's some research going on how to sort of read variation in the print parameters with the scanner so that's pretty innovative and that's possible in the future so we'll be able to have a unique ID for every single product that's the idea so a couple of questions one is around some my understanding is it allows you to essentially look at provenance right of where it comes from and so on so forth so for it to be legally mandated you know XYZ is actually this product you need for example a standards body which recognizes that these are the parameters which define this object so in your example who do you see as the standards body is it is they are there ones which are already set up for 3d printing industry and which will essentially mandate that you know for example if someone tries to replicate and it doesn't match that identity they can then go to the standards body and say that you know this is not working so is this actually a valid valid product or not the other question is in terms of adoption rate how quickly do you think especially in the areas or the country that you've worked in this technology being adopted by the wider set of companies the the our platform or 3d printing the platform with the platform I mean it's a good question we're trying to working on that apparently you can see how much how the business model it can evolve but we have received really good feedback from our sort of first users some of the names you've seen and I think if they adopt it and there was a big companies then we'll see a lot of other companies following because these are sort of flagship users but we also think that this is going to be a solution for the mid markets or not the big not only the big industrial companies who would potentially want to create their own ecosystem and not sort of put it on a wide basis of participation because they still believe they should protect their IP so but there is a there's a good mid-market of innovative tech technical engineering companies that would wanna adopt this we've tested it with smaller companies also so I think the adoption rate mmm should be you know I think in three years we'll have probably well I don't want to say mention any numbers but I think we'll have a we'll have a pretty good adoption rate within three years if we have some early leaders who adopted we'll have a lot of followers yeah and I mean I didn't quite get the question so you these mmm yeah so how do you prove that a product is so for example in the DA I think ever legit what they're doing is they they've partnered with the time and Association and their standards determine what what essentially the properties of diamonds have to be when they're putting it on the blockchain so with regards to the different products that will be on the blockchain yeah every one of them have to be recognized by a set of standards which are essentially digitized so I'm just wondering in in your case when you're working with these technologies are you having to work with different standard bodies or are you know we didn't start with that yet I think we're gonna have certifications of certain products which will have to be provided by standard bodies and we'll put these certifications on the digital product memory so they will certify a design and they will certify the print parameters and that certification will be part of the digital product memory and then with your key you can authenticate whether you have a certified product or not that's the idea so I want to say a few things about you know what was discussed before the environment so basically in your case if you have a small tag like that it's not really harmful for the environment because that's the cost of having a seal so when you buy a very expensive bottle of wine you have a seal or when you buy a phone on the case you have like a hologram seal so what's the cost of cost of you know producing it's not that much now I have another question about 3d printed objects are you looking at having on the blockchain a way to dismantle those objects and use the plastic the PLA and recycle the PLA introduce new filler because I think there is a technology where you can recycle the three that 3d printed objects have you thought of that have you looked into that yes so I mean the idea is that you through the digital product memory you you would be able to know where in what products where in the world do you have recyclable products and and then you could basically initiate a a recycling supply chain on that data to to collect these items to sort of check how old are they maybe I should they be recycled soon and then you can sort of invoke a recycling process of these 3d printed products and that's really the charm of the digital product memory because I've been working a little bit in in recycling right and especially titanium and this cufflink is made in titanium that's something that needs to be recycled and you need to know where are those products that have titanium in them and how to recycle them so I think we can see a lot of innovation in the recycling supply chain based on you know having this digital product memory for 3d printed products especially metals oh yeah could you explain a bit more about the about the model the model around the trade finance factoring that was mentioned on your own chart how that works in your business trade finance so mm-hmm so if we have the whole supply chain related data coming from the source in the digital product memory we have the information that is relevant for trade finance because it describes the product it describes the owner the material where it came from so a lot of things you would need to enable that to secure the trade finance process is on the digital product memory on an immutable record that is trusted so you take a lot of cost out of the trade finance process which involves a lot of checking insurance and and so forth and so on on all that is on this digital product memory with you know source trusted source data and I think we can with that we can really disrupt trade finance but I mean for trade finance there are a lot of blockchain based models thinking and solutions already out there but I think with you know this information we can really boost that as well what your presentation reminded me a lot of Balaji's presentation of 2100 about the machine payable web I don't have you've seen it but essentially the idea is that the third wave of the web is that objects now can have their own balances digital currency balances effectively but in your presentation I saw reference to payments and things but I didn't see you talk about digital currency balances in other words objects having their own digital currency balances effectively and having their own ownership because for the first time machines can own money in historically only humans have been able to have money balances but now machines can have money balances because Bitcoin and digital currencies which seems to me to be an aggregation or an addition or an augmentation of your model but you don't seem to envisage that or mention no no no absolutely I mean this could be one of the boat on business models so that's one thing we are really thinking about a sort of the unbanked machines right and so you're gonna have autonomous machines and in then we can think about this shared factory as an as in as a Dow right as a the machines can play each other yeah genes can pay each other exactly so so we are thinking about that that sort of an evolvement of of the solution but but absolutely yeah hi I have the first question for riddling code so do you necessarily need to physically connect the tag top to read the information on it or do you already have a kind of wireless technology to do it and then sorry another question for the other company what is the tolerance in terms of you know size I mean you showed the couplings made of titanium which are pretty cool but you know normally titanium is used to make very precise engineering piece so our precise can try the printed object be thank you yeah so how precise I think it's forgot the number and it's in the micrometers it's not nano yet right but it's improving and there is new technologies not not for metals yet that are there are much more precise and there yeah so 3d printing market is really evolving so even the the speed of printing and the surfaces are getting much better so that's that's as much as I can say right now yeah so usually there are sort of it doesn't end with the 3d printing so there is post-processing of 3d printed parts depending on what it is so these cufflinks were not post processed and they're a little bit rough but so in the real jewelry industry you typically post-process jewelry to make it more shiny right or you put some color on it so there's post-processing yeah not for everything yeah that I didn't get the question yeah yeah laser sintering yeah this is laser sintering I know there's this just obviously these different ways of doing 3d printing and some printing requires post printing sort of refinement and jewelry your jewelry is refining an object isn't it you know make it more shiny or softer oh yeah but in terms of accuracy obviously what I'm saying was if it was printed with stereo lithography you can produce casts and then you have the negative and the new print you have to be far more accurate unless refinement there will be some but with stereo laser sintering how you've produced it so once at this chaps question that's less accurate yeah because each bit of titanium is surrounded by a bit of polymer which is yeah if you get them exactly yeah I want to answer a question that spending before and did you ask if we we need to have a physical contact or also we support a wireless right and the question the answer is yes we have different models depending on the use case right so basically that talking it makes it more powerful to the solution and can give you access to extended services and but you can also have a TAC table which will only be a one hard word which will get embedded into the product and then with an NFC you can read it information a question about tag talk here I didn't understand how do you attach tactic to physical goods in uncompromising way say I'm producing jewelry how would I attach tactic to a golden chain okay so regarding for example gold there will be some specific very little we have very little limitations in what what we say I mean about embedding the product for example in that case it cannot be embedded but you can get attached I mean if the gold is very small I mean our tactile you can get as small as it can get it can not get smaller and smaller so I mean in uncompromising way I mean you just you could just glue it to the gold piece of a piece of a piece of code that you have and then if you try to peel it off then antenna will break and next time you try to rate it information or you try to initiate it then it will destroy itself and then when you do that then you will you will find out that the product has been got D validated it loses all its credentials yes how do you prevent me sticking the new antenna on the device sorry how do you prevent me sticking on you on the device sticking the new antenna on the device my disclaimer I'm not a CTO I can I don't think it's possible I'm sure we have an answer for that but I can take that question and maybe answer for you later on yes yes it's already compromised you cannot crack that's right sorry yes sorry it's tested and verified sorry can you say it louder if it's sorry I mean by expand expert know it's been tested by yourself I have a question about the genesis of things so I'm in a sort of scenario where I was a customer and I wanted to make something I would get into a contract with the designer and the material producer and 3d printer in a sort of like contract where all the parties will be party to this one contract is that correct it's a house opposed to work and then what if one of those parties defaults like it's some way they you know like maybe the material producer you know claims to say this is a certain grade and it's not and we only know after that you know so one solution that I can think of is that everyone would then put a deposit every party to the contract or deposit that would be you know forfeited if they have just you know done something wrong another way is to have someone else be impartial be also a party to the contract adjudicate whether who should be yeah so that's that's part of the escrow function on the blockchain right so the payment is only done to the various people once the whole transaction is certified to be complete right and so that the designer also only gets their royalties if the product was actually printed and the material provider as well so that's all sort of in the escrow functions of people you know so in that case then there should be some sort of reputation reputation system like let's say you know because now the designer is taking on the risk of working with you know somebody they don't know and that's a good that's a good thought and exactly so I think based on this we're gonna have reputation systems absolutely yeah yeah so that could be another bolt on solution and of course we thought about that I mean you have sort of reputations for the for the printers right so we have printers of print service companies on the blockchain and we have certain printers that have sort of a reputation so a machine will have a reputation for printing a high quality product or it would even have a certification or in the export contract you could see that a certain printer could with a certain material can print a certain level of quality and that would be also certified and that's sort of part of the reputation system for the printers for example and these honors can have reputations as well so would there be you know someone that stands in between to I sort of like say that that this I density on the blockchain belongs to this particular company in real life because they could use multiplied entities in the blockchain right so how do you do reputation systems wind how do you do my patience is how do you do reputation system so let's say I'm a cricket like materials provider and I and I and I and I and I have one accounts on the blockchain and I trade with these people and the Knights screw them over and I have another account like who you know how do you do reputation in that sense so you have anybody create an account you have to pay some money we haven't really completely thought that through I guess but I think we'll have we'll have certification body so there is going to be some physical checking this is not going to be a completely digital model because of some mmm regulators in between certification agencies that need to provide a certificate so they need to be part of the story right and how to how to game the system well I think we have to think about a little bit more but basically you know you can this the solution provides transparency from the source so we'll have like I said QA devices who will measure the quality of a print for example and for the incoming material we will also have sort of descriptions of the material and the provenance that will be on the from the source of a bit of product memory which will provide some level of trust into the system in terms of who delivered this and also in combination with the logistics partners we will track and trace the logistics of the product you can also identify fraud if the whole supply chain is not validated on the digital product memory so that's one way also of preventing fraud that all the data that make sense is is in the digital product memory and then you can check and authenticate that I could evening Robert I was just curious about your systems and procedures for replacing damaged or faulty modules damn it yeah I buy a bag all and it's faulty can you repeat the question again please yelder your procedure to replace the systems and procedures within your company to replace faulty or damaged and turn on your modules well this is pretty simple I mean we can we can just create a new one just like a when you lose your credit card so we can do the same just each a new one make the new interest in the blockchain and deliver it to the right person yeah going back to the platform so do you distinguish between what's created onto the blockchain when you're undertaking the manufacturing and the operational data that comes out what you comes out of what you've actually made which enables it to be repaired service during the life cycle of the product because that data life cycle is a lot more than what you're creating here so where is the edge network where's the aggregation how are you funneling that typical jet engine for example will if you manufacture that it's creating terabytes so how is that work I didn't really see that in the platform that you had right so engine consists of many parts I think will have the information of each part of the jet engine on the digital product memory and yeah so we're we're looking at apparently a lot of information and we need to I think for the different products we need to determine what data actually will go on the digital product so we can't have everything on there I think it's gonna be you know it needs to be negotiated with the partners who are putting their products on the digital product memory what part of the information should go on there and I think it's gonna take some experimentation and also the the use of the data is gonna be critical you know there's gonna be lots of uses and it's gonna be lots of data that will have no use also and we need to take that data out and provide just the data that is going to be important to to do certain things to optimize the product itself to prove the proper functioning and probably data that is related to to warranties and insurances and data that's related to efficiencies of the manufacturing process right and I think we could run some AI on the data to find out what data is really important here so we're not gonna be you know sort of a dumb engine that collects all the data but only the smart data about the product okay any more questions - one more yeah I just got one question regarding the supply chain and device for instance if we talk about the retail yeah I understand how it's done the tangible I sense I do understand what about the intangible were which I mean like liquid or oil for instance in oil shipment where happening aggregation and desegregation of the oil when for instance you have two tankers and from two tankers into one there is aggregation happening how you gonna prove identify proof of the of the good because basically it's actually creating the new product so and and I understand how you can track and trace that cargo because it's going to be once and gonna replace into the containers is easy but when mixing containers also in the shipping industry in the oil shipping industry sometimes the route changes trading changes the consequences changes how do you think it's applicable for that industry or it has to be something else to vote it's the next stage of your kind of idea I mean I think it's up to keep of traffic cable every cable for that industry also I mean we will make sure that the information which is stored in the blockchain is true I mean whether it's a new product because you mix two products together I mean it's it doesn't matter to us right I mean it's it's if you mix oil with another type of oil and then you become something else we will do that entering to the blockchain so you make sure that actually that product is the mixture of those two products so and you just have to do the same as any other container you will just tag the container or or use it as a locker if you want of the container and that's it it will be it will be the same situation okay thank you