Building Bridges Between TradFi and Digital Assets | European Blockchain Convention

[Music] good afternoon um first and foremost thank you all for uh finding the time to make your way back into the the stage after the lunch break which seems to also still be going on but thank you for coming to listen to this wonderful panel that I'm very much looking forward to uh my name is madalin boy I'm director of programs and Innovation at Global digital finance and it's my pleasure to open this panel with not one but two but three of GDs Partners so thank you for joining me and uh can I just ask you to kick off by introducing yourselves Alex why don't we start with you so good afternoon Alexander KES newly appointed CEO of the GLI Global L foundation so the gly is was created by the financial stability board uh after the 2008 financial crisis as an organization that orchestrates the issuance of legal entity identifiers to companies around the world for the simple purpose of identifying companies ensuring that kyc is done properly that risk is reduced because you have a clear visibility on who you're dealing with as a counterparty um hi all my name is Dennis DV I am the product owner at the DTI Foundation uh we are the registration Authority for the um ISO standard for for DTI which is um was set up to uniquely identify All Digital assets good afternoon everyone Stefan dryer managing director at Anna which is the association of national numbering agencies um so we are an association Global in nature 120 members um been working in the financial standards uh space for the last 30 years and we are uh responsible for the um implementation and maintenance of the international Securities identification number or icing code um and the last several years we've been working very diligently on expanding the influence and application of is and other Financial standards to the digital asset industry super well if if that's a segs way to get us started um you if any of you have attended EBC before you might know that uh Anna and dtis have been sort of Flagship partners of the conference for several years now it's where I've got to know uh both of you and so maybe for those who are not familiar with that can you maybe just walk us through some of the work that what Anna you're doing to integrate into the digic world and what that collaboration looks like y um so uh when uh DTI Foundation was created um that was around the time or the the DTI standard was being developed Anna was very heavily involved within the iso community and the development of the DTI standard so there was always a vision for um how the two standards would work together in a complimentary nature and one of the first steps was uh establishing a task force between the two organizations to really look at how um an Isen code which is an identifier that works at the asset level so if you think you know tether Bitcoin um kfw digital bond that is the asset and then the DTI which is implemented at the token level how those things would work together in a complimentary nature um and be interoperable and so we started on that Journey um as we start seeing more um issuances of digital Securities we've been working very closely um in addition to our our uh natural processes for I and obtain uh obtaining isens of procuring DTI uh we can Dennis can elaborate a little bit more on the use cases for DTI um but also looking at making sure other crypto assets these new things that are coming native um to blockchains are also being identified at the asset level and then there are multiple digital rep uh implementations by the by the DTI um yes so I think I'll I'll kind of start maybe um clear up some kind of um terms so when we talk about ISO standards ISO as organization has I don't know hundreds of thousands of different standards what we are all three of us are representing organizations that are creating that are maintaining the uh registrations for um identifiers so this is not something you become kind of compliant with a particular standard this is the unique ident identification ation of a particular thing so when we look at the how is and DTI are complimentary in nature is does thing really well which is identifying identifying the asset uh it's been around for 40 years it's used by Regulators it's used by the by the industry um but with the digital tokens there is an additional element of where that token is implemented so like stuff I mentioned like tether as an example or Circle um could be implemented on multiple blockchains it's still the same asset but it exists um as a different token so on the DTI side we take the technical information of the standard implementation um group them together under the same asset umbrella and then link it to the I created by um by Anna so what we what we we then have is the technical information of the token represented by DTI and the asset or economic attributes of the asset represented by by is and we we've been looking at the um traditional Financial assets um and we have quite a few of them already um in the registry but we also been looking at the kind of more kind of traditional crypto assets like stable coins or um Bitcoin um even some meme coins um I think that's that covers it well thank you both um and Alex G is an association the you know has started in traditional fin Finance essentially and it's now moving into the digital asset space can you walk us through sort of that Journey a little bit and where you see life really sort of coming into its own so to speak in the digital assets base sure so uh initially the global AI Foundation was created as a non-for-profit public good at the end of the day to benefit the financial industry it started with OTC derivative so how do I do you identify conp parties to ODC derivative transactions how do you report those transactions to trade Repository and then he progressively moveed to uh other use cases of uh legal entity identification for example crossb payments how do identify payer and paye in a crossb payment when those uh when it's a corporate to corporate payment it also evolved into supply chain to identify the various parties involved in supply chain so it's really kind of a passport that can be used for multi-purposes the same way that you use your passport to travel to another country you can also use it to kyc yourself into a bank to open a bank account that's the same approach for but for legal entities so how does it touch the uh digital asset space well in interestingly it started with a bunch of people defining a standard for the travel rule called ivms 101 so that gdf was involved in that so it was a group of Industry Group looking at how can we transfer beneficiary and ordering customer information uh to comply with the travel rule in the crypto world uh in the most efficient way and lei legal entity identifier was identified as a good standard for identifying virtual asset service providers and their customers when they are corporate um it then evolv into regulations with Mika for example also suggesting that uh when you are a token issuer or crypto asset service provider and you have an Lei you should use your Lei to identify yourself when you report to the regulator or when you issue a prospectus or white paper for example so that's the link because obviously you have the asset identification requirements in the world of Regulation you have the technical requirements of where this asset sits on what blockchain and then you have who issued that asset and that's really where the Lei is is interesting it identifies the issuer of the token or the Isen in in case and we have this strong collaboration with Anna and and soon with DF on U what we called mapping Lei and Isen or Lei and DTI information to ensure that there's always this uh ease of uh of use and and and and and actually database management using all those ISO standards that we uh respect respectively representing here uh on on the on the topic maybe a last point so Lei is a analog solution in a way so it's not like a did and verifiable credential system we've created on top of the Lei a distributed identity and verifiable credential system for legal entities that um enables companies to identify themselves on any platform it's blockchain agnostic but also uh individuals working for that company to to provably verifiably identify themselves on uh blockchain services so it could be relevant for example to link the issuer of a smart contract to that legal entity in a verifiable way so let's say that it's it's a company issuing a Securities token you could verifiably ensure that that token you see on the blockchain is effectively the token issued by that company the same for services if you go on Unis swap for example uh you better make sure that you are on the right Unis Swap and they've been attempt to impersonate Unis Swap and you go there and you you put your tokens on it and it's not Unis swap so that's also a way a possibility to use the vlei verifiable Lei to do that to link that smart service to the real company behind that smart contract and finally it's also very usable and very strong in permissioning uh actors into blockchain services so uh allowing for example an exchange uh permissioning those five corporates to connect to the service and start doing business in a verifiable way so we can discuss a bit more about that later but it has evolved standards always evolve to adapt to the needs of the industry whatever the technology and this we have three example of Standards evolving to support the industry as much as possible yeah we really do and I mean it's something that I enjoy so much it's this calibration point every time we come to EBC and we we just you know stay in touch as to how those standards are Evol evolving and so maybe actually on that can um Stefan and Dennis you want to talk a little bit about the work that you've been doing in terms of or collaborating with Regulators to see how DTI could integrate into some the regulatory Frameworks that we're seeing emerge like M for example um yeah so you know taking um MAA as as an example um we we had multiple meetings and participated in in kind of uh in in in the working groups um explaining why DTI is needed um and Al and um now on on the MAA the DTI is required when you're doing a white paper for arts and EMTs um and also all the casps have to do have to use DTI when do doing um regulatory reporting so I think what Regulators kind of find is that the use of the ISO standards like Lei and is and DTI um are um kind of are beneficial not just uh well as a as a regulatory thing but also as a kind of as just identification of these um of the right product or or organization um we also see uh other jurisdictions globally look looking at the um identification and again these standards being ISO they're looking at things like Lei and DTI um is anything to add well I think it's important so we talk about regulation and that is something that obviously all of us work on very heavily is working with Regulators getting them to understand the benefits and integrate um uh identification standards in particular the ISO standards into um Securities and crypto regulations uh more broadly but I think the other aspect is um going and speaking to Industry and talking about the benefits of Standards outside of regulatory mandates and that's another significant aspect where we all invest a lot of time um so you wonder you know you've got this is thing that identifies you know some asset you've just said and you've got then a DTI which uh identifies the the token and then you've got um the Lei which is identifying this entity and you know it sounds all very complex and a lot of work and a lot of effort um but I think it's important that people understand the use cases obviously if The Regulators expect that reporting is done against certain standard identifiers then to you know if you're a regulated entity or looking to operate in regulated markets you're going to have to comply with that but as a business you're going to benefit also um and so we you know were all very involved in the promotion of the adoption and implementation of Standards even in the absence of regulatory mandates and you look at things like data management you look at risk management um compliance um all of these are different aspects of the business that can benefit from standards and particular standards which are interoperable and complementary and free um absolutely I mean I think that's exactly what I wanted to get into right and it's also it's doing Justice to the title of the panel which is you know build Bridges between Trad fi you know traditional assets and digital assets which you know comes with standards it's standards that Foster that trust between Market participants regulators and policy makers at that in in new markets and so I mean can you maybe give some more examples of what those use cases are and to where standards play that role in terms of Building Bridges between uh tradire and digital assets Alex I don't know if you want to start with some some use cases well it's it's all about proper data management so I used to work at six digital exchange which is an exchange that uh issues Bonds in tokenized form and settles against Central Bank digital currency it's just logical as a a a financial institution who are is traditional and moving into uh digital assets to reuse as much as possible existing standards there is no need to have a new type of identifier for instrument for legal entities for for tokens we needed one because there was none and that's why why we Rec created the DTI uh but there's no need to reinvent the whe When existing standards have proven that they are meeting the objective of ID of what they've built for and and can be reapplied so when we were at sdx when we were on boarding customers we would ask their Lei it was the primary key for onboarding any banks or any financial institutions or corporates wanting to use our service they must have an Lei legal entity identifier and when we issue uh bonds we obviously were well we asked for a DTI that is linked to the bonds and the bond also had an iin obviously as well because that's how the asset is identified so whether the instrument is tokenized or not tokenized uh it it needs an identifier whether the company is a blockchain company or a a newcomer or a traditional player they need a legal entity identifier so reusing those standards enable that bridging and that with because ultimately this will be the same thing trade F and defi will be finance and ultimately so I think we we are contributing contributing to the acceleration of adoption of those Technologies because we enable uh uh traditional players to easily or more easily get into digital assets reusing standards that they know cherish and and and use on a day-to-day basis and well Dennis go ahead please y um so just um in another use case where DTI has been recently started to be picked up is uh in derivatives so if you have a a contract against a digital asset you can use a name and we seen examples of people saying salana um which is fine if I guess if if your counterparty is trustworthy or there is a implicit understanding what salana actually means um but anybody here can create a smart contract call it salana on on ethereum is that the salana that that you meant or is it a different salana is this the token that's been maybe perhaps bridged on from salana blockchain so it it kind of becomes difficult kind of um with the uh just using Bo or names of the tokens so we've seen a couple of derivatives contracts being created with the DTI in the white paper to uniquely identify the digital token so I just want to backtrack and I'm going to oversimplify a little bit um I think every day in our lives we are confronted with situations where standards are at play there are you know things that happen I'll give an example in a second but if we think about these you know digital assets um there's this thing that is being created right call it a digital Bond call it a a cryptocurrency call it a stable coin whatever somebody's created a thing so that thing is being identified by an is at the top of that you want to know well who created that thing there's an issuer or or or an organization behind that and that is what the Lei is doing then that thing there are digital representations that exist on different potentially uh networks so that is what the DTI is doing um so when you think about the the use cases um and I just like to use this this car example you can anal analogous to a car manufacturer right you've got a company let's take Volkswagen even though they're probably not doing so well at the moment um but you've got Volkswagen as a company that is the entity the thing that is creating things and Volkswagen has lots of different brands um golf Jetta etc etc and then within that portfolio you even got if you want to take it to the extreme the Audi and the Porsche scas those are the assets right so um and then you have the actual vehicles that are being manufactured in different locations in different factories around the world that is the actual implementation and so that is kind of the level of the DTI so you've got Lei entity is asset and DTI um at the the implementation the token level and each one of those is complimentary in nature they have a different set of reference data that serve a different purpose um so just going back to what I was saying before data management most firms in the in an ecosystem in in Capital Market Market or Financial Services have to transmit information right if I'm the issuer I'm a an underwriter uh the custody whatever the exchange the investor and they do that against the key right so that information is transmitted against an identifier through a machine so that we know that we're talking about exactly the same thing and again that information is then complemented with other identifiers um to give them the full picture um so there's the data management aspect the other one that i' like to talk about is um your your risk so assessing your risk um because if you want if you've got a very Diversified portfolio and you've got traditional Assets in there you may have direct investments in Bitcoin and then you may have uh derivatives um so etps on bitcoin and you want to be able to understand what your exposure is to anything irrespective of how or what form that is so then you can do that against identif fires I mean that's such an interesting use case but also like bringing it back to sort of the examples that everybody hopefully in the room can recognize is very helpful but I'll wrap that up on ladies and gentlemen this is the Holy Trinity of Standards when it comes to this space and I think I mean the mapping that St an just gave us was at least for me uh very helpful so thank you um I want to talk a little bit about again this sort of Journey from Trad fight into digital assets and I suppose the building of the bridges um in the building of the brid Bridges if we're using Real World analoges what hiccups have you run into where have where have you sort of run into challenges in terms of building the interoperability that we need between traditional finance and digital assets when it comes to standards development so obviously from the gly perspective I'm sure you you have insights there and Anna too so I'll leave it to you to uh to decide who goes first well there always are challenges I think the challenges of standards in a new Industries to get that standards known really at the end of the day and that's why we here on on the on the stage today uh and by the way if you look at the g.org website and you look at search I'm I'm pretty sure that 80% of the companies even if you are a startup in this room have it already an Lei because you need it for some specific requirements either as an onboarding uh for a bank a bank requirement or because you're already reporting to Regulators on or because you're doing payments and leis are are are are necessary for that and I advise you to look at the gly and and see whether you have an Lei and if you don't have one go and apply for it it's very uh economical the data is enabled for free uh to have uh it's published for free and accessible for free for consumption and uh and it's really something that you should grab and use and leverage as you build your own business as well uh internally your own data architecture so the challenge is about getting to know uh getting those new players in the industry to know about existing standards and avoid the uh the in the Reinventing of the wheel as I was saying earlier where people come up with a new standard is that already exists and they and why it doesn't need to be so so reuse existing standards they are free because they are open source in general and they can be applied to uh the blockchain industry and digital asset industry so I would um in terms of challenges I would say the the main one is education and awareness um because there are a lot of people that are not aware of standards and obviously with you know the the the birth of DT and blockchain you had a whole new community um that came out and we not aware of all the things that were being done in trfi and the trfi guys you know they didn't know what was being done in DT and blockchain and so that's kind of our our mission here to go out and make sure that there is awareness I think it's it's getting easier because there is much much more of a convergence uh between these two things I think a lot of people you know believe okay standards complex uh difficult costly to implement all of these kind of uh and then I'll wait until the Regulators say I have to do it and and as I said before there's a lot of benefits to be achieved in terms of being an early adopter and we don't you know develop these things standards in isolation they're done within industry expert communities within ISO leveraging feedback from uh Market participants and so being able you know being an early adopter allows you to get in there and help develop uh or influence the development of the standards I would say the second thing um and where we've had a benefit of Lessons Learned um in setting out in the journey between uh mapping isens and DTI we learned a little bit from the the experience that we had with I and lei where we had two standards that kind of evolved um independently of each other and then ultimately you know the two organizations came together and said you know it would be a huge benefit to Industry and the market if we brought these things together for them so the I and the Lei so the mapping initiative that Alex referred to but doing things in retrospect is always a bit more challenging large data sets the validations and whatnot but I think we've gotten to a good point um Lei is a mandatory data element within the iso 6166 is and standard now so if something has an Lei if an issuer has an Lei it is required to be included as part of the E and record which is a a huge uh you know step forward I think and absolutely and and Dennis do you have anything to add maybe from the I suppose the the tech native side of this if if we're looking at the at least history of the organizations uh if you're meeting if you're meeting an and lei on the other side of the Bridge so to speak again uh what challenges did have has DCI still seen in in uh in the past few years in this respect I think I think probably the biggest challenge is um this speed of innovation within the um within DT space um so the and it has two two different kind of thing you know one is that the the market participants and Regulators are trying to learn about this new um new place and and trying to understand understand what um measures they need to put in in place to um to protect the the investors and I think part of that was uh what what Stefan said is that we have to kind of go around and and kind of um talk about the standards how they can be used and also um to sometimes educate um Regulators around the yes there are massive advantages to using dlts for uh traditional Securities on crypto but there are also massive risks um you know including governance of the uh of the DTs um so that kind of one one outcome from that challenge this the second outcome is really making sure that the standards are still supporting the market as the technology evolves and what we have because these are again these are ISO standards they have um strong governance so there is a group that uh regularly reviews these um and then um provides updates on them if needed if something um something has changed um or something that's U I guess needs to be cleared up so when the DTI standard went live in 21 I think September 21 um we will we actually um give some feedback back back to ISO um to ensure that certain things are tweaked in the standard and that's now going for the for the final ballot so I think you know having that process in place to update the standards is uh extreme helpful because this is not going to technology is not going to stop maybe to add one challenge that we currently having with the the legal entity identifier is that how do you identify a decentralized autonomous organization because it's not technically a legal entity although in some countries like Bahamas and and I think Switzerland they are looking at a legal construct to register digital uh decentralized autonomous organization and if if if that goes through they would be able uh they would be uh liable well not liable they would be uh a they would be able to get an Lei but we we don't we haven't solved that problem yet but that's something we're looking at because I think it's important that any issuer of tokens or any uh uh entities whatever the legal form or if it even if it doesn't have a formal legal form should be identified because it's useful for uh the security of the the the system itself uh and for uh the the the growth of this industry in general yeah and so maybe actually I'm conscientious that I shouldn't be jumping in as a panelist here but there's another standards of geek here uh there's a really interesting concept of Lems in French law that essentially allows for that I can't take credit for it um so from a chat with a gentleman that a CTI who essentially explained that you can there's there's an attribution of Lems where you can represent nebulous entities through FR structures which allows at least sojen at the moment to do a lot of the work that they're doing with their stable coin with def entities and so on but we can take that we can take the side um oh I think there's there's a lot of food for thought here right now and I think I just want to sort of pivot to what we're looking at what we're building I think stiff and you mentioned the word convergence which is probably one of my favorite topics is you know what's the landscape looking like as you know we build the bridges between trafi and digital assets so maybe if I start with you I think what not not on the green shoots but what are you what are you hoping that we see in terms of regulatory developments that you know where we're looking at integration with the standards that we have here today what are you hoping for will facilitate this continuous building between trafi and digal assets at least you know in in in the shortterm future before we next meet at EBC yeah well I think what what we are obviously seeing is uh a lot of a lot of progress of firms moving out of poc's into Pilots right so I think we're we're very much into a pilot phase whether that's on digital securities um you know we're starting to see some shares and I think obviously in in terms of crypto derivatives you've got the the tokenized money market funds is a big theme um we've got things going on with carbon credits so I think there is definitely progress being made um I think you'll also start seeing a lot more of uh institutional stable coins like like SG has done I think that will be a thing so I think over time in the long term we'll see um some consolidation in the in the stable coin space I'm not sure if you know industry needs that many stable coins but that's just my personal view um but I think the what I what I am finding is that there is a lot more of tri-party dialogue so you have technology and standards bodies and Regulators all coming together much more frequently in various different forums you know um associations like gdf facilitating a lot of that work bringing different uh industry participants together and I think that's super super important um there is still a lot of work to do you may have noticed when we've talked about standards we focus very much on the identification aspects of very specific things so it's just a niche in this bigger standards uh space um you have a lot of other standards that need to be looked at and will'll come up for discussion you know public versus private and uh technology standards you know tokenization platform standards um so there's you know the standard space is much bigger than what we're actually talking about here and certainly for us here I know that one of the the big uh ticket items in the in the book of work and it's probably it almost seems a little bit cart cart before the horse orever whatever the analogy is is the kind of tax taxonomy and classification because that is a key um ingredient I think for the further um evolution of Regulation right so defining the things that we're talking about we do you still find that a lot of terms you know whether they're just rappers or marketing terms for things or whether they're actual legal definitions are very inconsistent across jurisdictions I know I probably talked about the same thing with five different words in you know one sentence so um there's still a lot of work to be done there and there are standards within the iso space that can be leveraged for that purpose and we will look to take uh take a look at those in the future but I think getting this identification piece um out of the way or at least um to a to an advanced stage is super important because it allows us to be certain about the thing that we're talking about when we we say how are we going to Define that we know that we're talking about the same thing because we've got identifiers for it anything to add that's quite a lot there um covered all the yeah I just want you know I think convergence is um convergence of the taxonomy is really important and I think we talked about this kind of every year uh what is a stable coin who has the right to say it's a stable coin there is definition under MAA um there are I guess every jurisdiction will have its own sort of view on that so it becomes kind of pro problematic from the investor perspective especially if you have multi multi- region sort of um uh um options um so I think that convergence I think it's not going to be next year it's you know longer term but I think it's going to kind of move in that in that direction um but I think the other thing to um um to help the industry with the with the transition I think was something we mentioned before and that's kind of reuse of existing standards and and um uh standards and and also channels um that traditional Finance has been using for years like for example fix um fix has been around for a long time it's uh it works really well it's been kind of um at the heart of the financial industry um so so when there was some kind of discussion about how do we connect a blockchain to traditional Finance I think initially it was conv to build something new but then somebody said look it already exists traditional Finance is able to connect to it and it works you've been involved in a um in a pilot so I think yes innovation in the space is great and it's great to see some kind of interesting things out there but um I think for crypto Market participants it's it's good to know that there are already things that exist that could be easily used and what not only that um kind of um they work already so there's less time to Market but also make it easier for traditional Finance to access this new technologies or exchanges yeah I mean I I don't want to take away from Alex's moment but I'm also very glad that use the fixed example because that's a lot of the work that gdf has been doing as of late in our tokenization forum testing out the integration of fixed tradeing Community into the world of digital assets using the fin PDP protocol and so that's like a real life example at the moment of how we're testing that integration and it's true I mean it facilitates that scalability from institutional perspective because it's something that we know it's something that we recognize it's something that we trust and so yes to not Reinventing the wheel but Alex please well I I can concur by a real life example so six digital exchange again uh the trading of the tokenized bonds and tokenize equities uh is done via fix because there is no need to change this broker to exchange connectivity if it works uh the how it settles on blockchains later that's that's that's something different and it's uh it's obviously happening on the blockchain but in terms of Communication channel between Brokers and and the exchange itself they are reusing the fixed standard and for the settlement bit they also reusing the iso 2022 standards which is the standards used for post trade activities uh in Securities and in payments so no need to change something that works uh focus on the uh the core value of blockchain which is transfer of value and uh holders and holders ship of value and make it as efficient as possible leveraging existing standards while at the same at the same time being Innovative on the way the uh the the the settlement process itself has happening yeah no absolutely I mean so I think that the a lot there in terms of what we need to be paying attention to the the one last thing that I want to really hone in on is I suppose we've all spoken about the you know how important it is to collaborate with regulators and policy makers and try and ensure that these standards are essentially you know filter into regulatory Frameworks within the digital assets base but know what's needed from a market participant perspective Beyond checking the the life website to see if they have an Lei like how can we Foster better collaboration with Market participants to ensure the better utility I suppose of these standards cuz that's something that I'm always like you know I I don't want to say obsessed with but I do spend a lot of time thinking about this is if we have these standards how can we ensure that they they derive utility we have a standard that we published for fi so we're working a lot with the acif FMA right now trying to think about a attestation model for this and so on because it's you know it's all very well bringing a standard to Market but how is it then used so um any perspective on that would be wonderful maybe one uh one point so in the Lei world we we have a concept called validation agents so these would be for example a bank that on board a corporate on regular basis and do a kyc a very stringent kyc as you know to onboard that legal entity as a customer so we leverage that process to also ask for an Lei if that company doesn't have an Lei the same is happening in the crypto space so we have a validation agent called verify vasp they might be in the room and they are certainly in the the audience because I've seen them uh around so verify vasp is a validation agent that issues AI to crypto asset service provider or virtual asset service provider when they on board on their platform and they don't have an Eli because they know that Lei is important for they for them they sponsor the cost of issuance of Lei which is $50 it's not a lot of money and uh they enable that their customer at the end of the day to get an Lei and be let's say and enter the standardization world uh in a in a most convenient way so these type of partnership are important to us and that's what we we also doing uh uh on um and anybody who does on boarding of legal entities as part of their business if you're interested to talk to me after as as becoming a validation agent uh we can definitely uh involve you into the process everything we do is is pretty much open source so it's all about collaboration it's all about partnership uh I don't sell anything as I always say I'm I'm I'm giving a prot I'm I'm making available a protocol the an a standards to enable many many many many things at companies but it cannot only work if those companies on board and use that standard and if we have partners that enable the technical support required to manage that standard I mean you're preaching to the choir I don't sell anything either all I do is is say we have these incredible standards organizations in our association as partners that we're very proud of so you know they're they're there to be used and to to explore collaboration Avenues but s and Dennis I don't know if you have anything to add on that front completely agree with what what Alex is saying that um I think just kind of to step back um we um when we speak about the standards we usually meet kind of two responses one is probably more from traditional Finance of who saying of course we need this you know I and dtii really really important it's important that that we have that not only for regulatory mandate but also that to ensure we are we have the right counterparty and we're selling the right right product the other response we get is usually is like what why you know this product this DT this blockchain already has a smart contract address that's a unique identification why would I need anything else and that's um I guess that's fine if you're never going to interact outside that blockchain as as soon as you connect to another blockchain or connect to regulator or connect to exchange you need some sort of standard so and even kind of pushing back from the standard things like BTC eth became default standards but they're not unique um so you know we kind of um what we're advising the the the the industri is to pick up these standards that are unique U that are useful and if you find something that's not useful or that can be improved in some way come and speak to us um these standards evolve there is a process under ISO that can review them every uh every couple of years uh but also as registration authorities or or um um I think registration authorities or or maintenance authorities um we can make certain changes not to the standard itself but for example add additional data attribute or um classify something um you know instead of integer should be a string or something like that we are here to help the industry um if it's in any way can be improved speak to us let us know we can see if that can that can be done just uh add to that the maximum value that can be achieve from the standards when you have the maximum number of participants using them if I have a standard and I'm the only one using it it has zero value right so that adoption across the industry is super important for us and that's why we invest so much time in in raising that level of awareness if we can get more people talking the same language using the same standards to um talk about or transmit data or perform their operational functions then everybody's going to benefit from that right because it's going to make um the the processing the operations much much more uh efficient and inexpensive things won't have to be done you know back offices uh reconciling uh different trades and all that kind of stuff that that happens in trefi um when you have the standards uh you have much better uh data sources at your hand and I would say you know it depends on what your role is in this whole ecosystem if you are an issuer of something um your needs are going to be a little bit different in terms of wanting to approach um any the organizations here about obtaining the identifier or the thing that you're issuing but our plea goes out you know to the the type of organizations that are um very well represented here at this event um who are in other aspects of that whether it's uh research or data vendors or uh you know crypto exchanges custody uh whatever it is that you're doing think about building a product and integrating the standards into it already at least have the fields so your clients have it when the needs arise again um don't wait until the regulatory mandates are there you can you can build it now because ultimately that's really where this scales I think and I mean I say that a lot in terms of when we're looking at institutional adoption in this space it's a question of volume too and I think from the standards perspective that rhetoric fits as well um it's about creating that Network effect so that it actually makes sense to use the standards because other people are using and then otherwise you don't have that utility so um I mean it's great to see the Fantastic work that uh all three organizations have been doing since you know I mean I want to say the beginning of Standards additional asset so um thank you for sharing your insights today with with with everybody and I hope that you found it useful unpicking sort of the different layers of standards that we have here today and if you have any questions from the panelists I'm sure there'll be around after so thank you very much and Round of Applause please