'Top Shot, Flow, and the Future of Dapper' - Roham Gharegozlou & Kartik Talwar

i want to welcome roham from dapple labs um and uh this is a special kind of talk for us because there's a lot of things that sort of tie things up things together from how youth global started and where we are now so um roham is here with us uh we're gonna be talking about top shot flow how dapper came to where they are and a lot of things in between and of course if any questions as we kind of go through this talk please feel free to ask them on the chat and we'll ask them here directly so without further ado please welcome rohan hey can you hear me okay yes we can uh super excited to have you here um i was thinking through a bunch of questions i wanted to ask you and i realized that even though i have a list i feel like it's not going to work out the way i want it to be so we'll just kind of go through whatever deep dive we go into and uh just dig into whatever comes out of this but uh uh kind of one one sort of super interesting piece here and i mentioned that another panel i did a few hours ago was um three years ago um eve global started um and now we ran an event called eat waterloo and um there was a project called rufflet that came out of it not a lot of people know what roughly it was and uh the origins of ralph late were what cryptokitties is now uh this is where things came out of me i came out of and uh kind of almost three years later we're at nft hack and i just thought about it and realized that we're making an event on an industry that came from that event we did three years ago and just how massive and how interesting that is and uh it would have just been perfect to make sure that we had you to share some of that past because you've been part of that journey from from the beginning so welcome um and uh yeah i'm super excited to talk about this so so the first thing i want to do is just have everybody learn a bit more about you and dapper just tell us about what dapper labs is and how the company has started i mean that blouse was born out of cryptokitties which was born at a i guess it was just east waterloo at that time i don't know if we yes um and uh and yeah so we created cryptokitties and and at that waterloo event we were both uh so the team was hacking on roughly which was sort of an analytics tool for um for ethereum transactions sort of mixed panel for for blockchain but um we were also testing crypto keys so we had the cryptokeys alpha which is a very buggy smart contract with a very buggy front end um and that was where we got that initial community right the first thousand people that that just convinced us that hey this thing's gonna be gonna be huge and and so the team went from so we had a team of about four or five people on crypto kitties until that weekend um and then right when they came back from waterloo we we uh we put a team of 15 people on it and a month later launched the product uh onto mainnet and then so we were we were part of my previous company it was called axioms and it was sort of a bootstrapped venture studio we didn't have any outside investors and so when we made dapper labs it was just it was a big decision and and the reason we did it is everybody was so excited uh back then but it was clear we had years and years of sort of the whole industry had years of work ahead and so uh we we started working with fred wilson at usv chris dixon and theresa um and uh obviously you you you a capital and then others jumped on board uh afterwards um when google ventures and so that was sort of the start of adapter labs um and we basically got to building um first a bunch of things on ethereum and then as you're saying float on top shot which i'm excited to talk about that's amazing so so i want to mostly spend time on the future but i do want to ask an interesting question i think 2017 when all this was happening this was sort of the time where itam sort of came into the spotlight we were seeing a lot of things around icos and projects and and the initial concepts of concepts of like what's what's working now whether that be daos or some early versions of of uh amms and and d5 um i think what was super interesting to me about the crypto case launch was you were one of the first teams to actually blend the creative side of it with the tech and and just the level of or the amount of thinking that went into designing a user interface and a product experience that was just more um intuitive to the end user who may not necessarily know about ethereum or crypto was just amazing to see because the star contrast was was incredible could you talk us through like what actually went into launching cryptokitties from designing this thing and making it friendly and sort of how that came to be after the hackathon for sure and i want to just call out the last panel uh super inspiring stuff and and that concept of those who build the future have a responsibility to shape it was literally our slogan or our sort of mission statement at axiom zen and that's why we created cryptokitties because we saw these icos and and but no one was thinking well wait a second hey how far are we like what's the actual gap between making this this thing usable and then and then two well what's where are we going to start are we really going to put leases and and you know um uh sort of homes on the blockchain is the first thing we're going to do like i don't i don't think so let's so you know let's start with digital cats and get people comfortable with it um so so you know i mean in terms of the ui honestly there's there's um there's a lot of improvements we've done with top shot and also a lot you know we're still 0.1 i think but the biggest thing we did was was trying to make sure the thing was fun at its core um and so the you know when we ran the alpha at east waterloo it was barely a front end it was just kind of a ugly interface into a smart contract uh the team had stuck uh stickers of cats onto pokemon cards and was sort of handing them out as to like and it was just amazing to see just to test whether people got excited and that's the key thing right in any consumer product you need to have that hook and that that's you know i don't know if there's sort of a formal frame framework for it but i like talking about you need to have a hook turn people's heads you need to have legs like it needs to have frequency people need to come back and build habits around it um and then you need to have a flywheel there needs to be a reason to bring your friends to explain it to other people you need to feel cool because you're a part of something and then that that's what unlocks the real power of nft which is the owner becomes a participant in the in the community they're not just a customer that sort of comes and presses a button expect service but rather they become a contributor and and sort of that thing just snowballs and and it gets really really cool so that that's i think i would just say you know all consumer products have to have hook legs flywheel but um sort of nfts are both harder because they cost money but they're also easier because they're actual real ownership in in the community now this is super super interesting because it sort of answers one thing i was going to ask so i'll just kind of jump into that section and maybe um what i'm going to do is like i think it may be useful to just also know a little bit about the intent for how cryptokitties was designed as a game and sort of like the skill you reach i remember at one point seeing something like 100 000 users um playing with the game and back then when we're looking at what's being interacted on ethereum that was like an unheard number of uh just kind of usage and that blew everybody's minds so kind of talk about the scale that you got to it and sort of how that transition into you thinking about scalable systems and we'll kind of jump into topshop yeah the biggest thing was that when we started cryptokitties and when we started testing on mainnet breeding a cat was costs individual sense sending a cap back and forth was fractions of a cent you know ethereum was you know those were sort of the good old days right where you know you could you could get a seat at the restaurant no matter what time you showed up kind of thing and it was it was and the game was super fun and the problem was after we deployed to mainnet you know power of smart contracts it's it's it's immutable right and but the cost skyrocketed even back then 100x now it's another 10 to 20x on top and you know massive credit to ethereum for being able to operate at such high levels of congestion right it's super impressive that that you know all these people are trying to use the the same highway and it's actually working um but it's just costing too much for uh for consumer products and so you know people are buying nine dollar cats paying fifty dollars in gas fees um the economics don't work right it costs 150 bucks to or 100 plus bucks to breed your own cats together um so so that that's i think um the the only issue but um but other than that you know there's there's the the the game was designed as to be accessible to folks there were these sort of founder cast or the first you know 100 uh that were high priced and and they get all the headlines but the idea was if you have two of your own kitties you should be able to make kitties that like that look the way you look you want them to look and and there's so many different kind of corners and pockets of rarity um and sort of collectibility so being the first to discover particular genes being the first to discover particular combinations um that that sort of thing and so you know we're super excited about cryptokitties obviously we're going to continue supporting it on ethereum um i'm going to keep giving those kitties now more functionality and things like that on flow um so so you know it's going to be it's going to be a good but but you know there's the problem is to design a customer experience then you have to solve the technical challenges to delivering that customer experience and so everything always takes a year longer than that yeah just measure it twice and then double it um the crypto kitty sort of paved the way for what people people can do with uh just gaming especially on blockchains i think there's a lot of creative things that came to be because we're talking about nfcs we're talking about digital art but i think you sort of made it blend of both by making everything programmable as well and i think it sort of sort of clicked a whole new uh neural pathway and then most people's heads were they talked about how you can actually make things interactive um how did that sort of transition lead you to to top shot um can you tell us a bit about what top shot is and just sort of uh how that idea came to be yeah absolutely i mean in a lot of ways top shot is simpler than crypto keys cryptokeys the genetic algorithm is on the blockchain the all of the creating a new cat is the you know the the blockchain has to run the computation and mint the a new kitty whereas top shot is a little more uh you know the no one can create new top shots so you can't breed the the two two cards together they get packaged up into packs those packs uh are sold people open them up and then every single top shot is an individual nft um and the the scarcity is usually fixed from the start rather than in cryptocurrency they had to kind of be discovered in a lot of ways and so much more kind of um much more collectibility and playability in cryptokitties but also more complex and and and so with topshop we kind of simplified it we said let's take the best parts of trading cards um make them better because they can be digital so it's videos instead of photos it's it's sort of interactive they're actually unity objects so you can take them into ar vr in the future and and and so they're sort of future proof in that sense um but but but you know proof's been in the pudding the people people are uh we're doing the same transaction volume on top shot in in a week though as we did in crypto keys in a year um sometimes in a day uh actually last 24 hours 15 million dollars in transaction volume that's half of all of cryptokitties throughout all history um and so so it's super low friction and you know everybody talks about the high dollars but but the cool thing is more than half of the transactions are actually under 50 bucks where you know you can sell a one dollar moment they don't they're very few one dollar moments anymore but you could sell a one dollar moment and it cost five cents in in fees um and so you know that's that's um and that that actually cut goes a big chunk if it goes to the nba and the players and so they're incentivized to support the platform and and all these things so so top shot is you know it's every single top shot is an nft it's on the flow blockchain um every user account is a blockchain wallet but there's nothing on the website that says nft there's nothing on the website that says blockchain and you obviously you can go on third party tools and it's transparent because it's on blockchain it's limited edition because it's on the blockchain they have value because they're on the blockchain but nobody needs to know they don't need to know anything about crypto to to start engaging and that was really important to us absolutely i feel like uh um you're being a little bit humble here so i really want to press on sharing some some stats about how uh top shot's been growing you obviously talked about the volume as last 24 hours but uh tell us about how these drops work and kind of the the crazy amount of traffic you get and sort of what happens in there and how you're thinking about the interest and uh and everything it's still it's still early right so we're in beta but but we're about three hundred thousand uh users that have a top shot so so it's it's um you know it's but it's growing really fast about 220 230 000 of those were in line this morning for for the all-star packs it's highly highly engaged right and so you can tell kind of when the total percentage of a user base is really into it that that's a good sign um and then there were only 30 000 packs and so what happens is some people get what they want some people don't and so then they go on the secondary marketplace and and trade there and there's been about 400 million dollars of uh peer-to-peer trading on the marketplace since since we launched and we've really only been in public beta since october um and so it's it's you know super early days um but people are spending a lot of time and the best thing is like just the players and the athletes and the the the commentators and the team owners and they're all into it right they don't they never cared about like they don't even care really about technology necessarily other team owners of course they do but you know it's it's that the fact that they can say hey put it on a top shot on national television that makes sense players are jumping off the court and saying i hope i made a top shot tonight they're they're adding flair to their game to to be able to get into top shot and like that that that's cool that that sort of shows that you know it's it's gone beyond being you know the technology just enables that because that wouldn't be possible without blockchain it wouldn't be possible without crypto for the nba to have such a direct relationship with your fans they'd have to do it through some video game right rather than or through like facebook or wechat or something it wouldn't be real but now it is and it feels real to all the players and everyone involved and it's because of blockchain but nobody really even you know needs to needs to know you know how merkle trees and other things work so that's what gets us excited that's that's absolutely amazing um you can already touched on this thing in my my next question is going to be about just what actually how did this came to be so like how do you actually pitch uh or account what the reactions do you get from like the nba or if you're approaching any interesting large party to do this type of integration where there's ip involved or there's like a whole new cell for a whole new paradigm shift what kind of what was the reaction how did this came to be um were there any concerns what did you address like that whole backstory of how this actually finalized would love to learn more yeah i mean it took it took well over a year so we started talking to them early 2018 in the beginning of cryptokitties and then uh we signed the deal sort of mid-2019 and then it took a year to actually build a product so um so so it took a year but they were great i mean they were super sophisticated brought like a multi-disciplinary team to the table and our philosophy was look we're a startup we're not gonna pitch you on working with us it's do you wanna do this together or not and we're gonna work with one partner and is going to be the one partner that works with us most closely and is sort of most uh understanding that this is a new technology there are risks the timelines might change we we have to change which blockchain we're going to build on halfway through and you know all of the things that that means and so it was much more important to us that we find the right partner and and just happen to be also the best partner because you know nba is huge it's global it's culturally relevant it's young the younger fan base uh crypto savvy and so so just it worked out but my advice to startups out there is do not go bet your company on an ip partner unless they're they are you know they're they're gonna you're not gonna they're not gonna treat you like a t-shirt company right there's a high degree of risk in licensing ip and building new kinds of products and it's very important to work with the right partner no it's amazing and sort of um this is kind of what you talked about where this took quite some time to kind of work out the details for and uh and so that's the same transition we thought about flow itself um give us an overview of what flow is and sort of uh how'd you came to be um how to came to launch the blockchains or where it's headed now as a platform yeah for sure and look like i'm a huge fan of ethereum i hold uh as probably everyone everyone here um and and our our philosophy was just we we built uh dapper wallet on ethereum we built cheese wizards and and you know maintain crypto kitties on ethereum and the idea was look there's there's so many people that want to use ethereum there's d5 products there's traders and they're spending a lot of money to use ethereum so if we want to have very cheap high volume you know high number of people but maybe each individual transaction cents or dollars um that we're gonna need to figure something else out and so we looked into layer two solutions we looked into you know we talked to every single person building layer on blockchains and and you know i think personally i'm all for competition and like finding different ways up the mountain and so our perspective was look we're the only ones that have built out of all the people building platforms we're the only ones that have built apps on top of the platforms and so we have kind of this just ptsd and pain of sort of you know what we want to do different and nobody's really listening to us because they're like what do you guys know about you know how a blockchain should work or how these these you know high import highly important payment systems should work and so we said well you know and we didn't take it lightly right we had a team that did research for a year um we have advisors like dan bunny at stanford we worked very closely with the injuries and crypto team uh tried to get everybody's advice and and sort of and and with flow it's a fundamentally different architecture it's not like we copy pasted uh some code and said hey you know we just called it flow it's a new approach to scaling blockchains and we think it's a better approach for consumer products um and so we wanna we wanna you know put it out in the market and see what people think that's a wonderful overview and i feel like especially with top shots it's it's uh it's working and and you can see this firsthand um the kind of one other thing you just sort of mentioned is that the the nba deal and top shot took quite some time and and your initial pitch was you want to work together and that sort of kept everything serial versus parallel or just being able to do more how do you actually think about that now moving forward like is kind of the approach to work with another partner for however long it takes and then we want to the next how do you kind of balance that with like what a product is versus like where flow should be headed um just a little bit more insight into that would be amazing yeah look it's hard um you know everybody wants to do nfts now from like you know uh supermarket companies to politicians to you know everyone in between and so i think for us is we need we got to stay focused and the things we want to stay focused on are making sure top shot is the best product it can be and making sure flow is the best platform it can be and so the the goal the only way we can help everybody is to say well we'll give advice away you know tweet and sort of you know anyone who who wants to any entrepreneur working in space happy to now i'm doing angel investments some companies building on any platform you know just just to see sort of more people coming to bed and taking swings but the biggest thing is helping others be successful on flow because we think you know the tools are enabled that other people should be able to build billion dollar companies uh billion dollar brands not just licensing from brands but but creating their own companies what's the next cryptokitties what's what's the fart app for blockchain we want it to be on on flow and we want to support and make that happen so you know we're not trying to build everything in fact we're trying to find partners that are saying hey i want to be this sort of lego piece in the flow ecosystem because i want to serve consumers too and and that's kind of our mode is finding others who want to we want to do we want to serve the same customers we want to serve and then say hey you want to build that great we're not going to build that in fact you know if it's a sort of infrastructure thing we'll use yours because you know we we have so much stuff we're already doing we don't need to maintain our own like you know uh access api or our own you know minting service or our own i mean even potentially marketplace right with if you have a super advanced one with all of these sort of features maybe we'll just use it so you know we want to be kind of open to um partnering with folks and and that's kind of our highest priority is showing that it's not just a dapper lapse thing and it's also not just a major ip thing you you can do this if you have a group of users that that have love for something and then that that sort of social value is expressed in in the economic value of the crypto assets that that sort of tie your ecosystem together it's it's i mean those words haven't been used together much but like that's a very obvious thing and it will sort of be obvious as time goes on in uh in ethereum and especially d5 we talk a lot about composability and then this is another flavor of interoperability and composability because i remember after cryptokitties launched where so many projects were fun and some professional attempts of being able to um anywhere from add a a costume or or a prop on existing kitty because you can merge contracts and read stuff and i feel like um obviously the iep stuff aside there's so many opportunities to make a whole big universe you want to call it metaverse you can call it a much more collaborative open ecosystem that's just i think getting started and and i was just curious to understand like how do you think about composability in general like is whether that's flow or whether that's a specific product that you're working on um have your kind of thoughts change over the past few years on composability here my thoughts have not changed i think composability is as important to crypto as open source was to the internet and in the sense that you know the first generation of internet applications were just websites right and it was until it wasn't until there was enough maturity in open source that twitter and facebook and now uber and all these things can sort of just build on the shoulders of giants and put new products out although because these are closed you know they're still open source but closed data and so the the you still have to reinvent so much and you can't fight the network effects that these big companies create well that's what composability changes right the data is public the customer is in charge they can take their stuff anywhere they want and that that concept will will create a whole new uh class of software um that that will i'll compete every single thing that's centralized because it'll be exponentially faster i mean that that's for sure it's just a question of when because i you know i'm i i'll talk i'll say this at an ethereum uh conference because you know most of the people watching should probably get it but you know these concepts you know most people are still in the website stage right they're like nfts rights.com it's sort of the it's the token becomes the thing rather than the application that the token is part of in a sense um and so it'll take it'll take some some time for people so but that's why we both flow the reason we think flow is necessary is because every other blockchain to scale they are using things like layer 2 or things like sharding and breaking up the network into smaller networks and what that does is that that makes composability harder it forces you to be asynchronous right if i'm talking to you and you're on a different chart i have to lock my thing up you have to lock your thing up we have to tell each other that things are locked and it takes seven eight transactions whereas right now it happens in one and so so you know i don't think there will be one chain to rule them all but i do think that large composable um execution environments will uh hold network effects you know almost like app stores or or or you know maybe like i don't know what the analogy is because because it's actually freer than anything right it's still you can move it to somewhere else you can still have bridges it's just one hop away right it's asynchrony versus versus synchrony so it's like it's fundamentally more open but there are kind of huge benefits of if you have if you're serving a common customer your customer will be better off if like on the same composable environment on the same internet in some senses maybe yeah i don't know if internet's not the last one but um well we i mean i have a few more questions we got one from from the audience um so there's over a thousand people um that are are participating and just watching the summit which is a kind of inspiring design for just the public side of it and we have a little bit over 550 developers and creators and artists hacking for the weekend and uh the question is uh is there anything on your list of things that you would like to see people build for the hackathon on the theme of nfts i'm sure there's like a master list of cool small projects you want to see but uh we're curious if you can share a couple um i would look there's so much data out there in nfts and nft collectors care about this stuff like who owned the thing before i did what else do they own and like i would love to see someone take a social approach to a block explorer because like people go through ether scan and they literally share screenshots of ether scan right that's a thing in the crypto world but that's not a thing in the in the normal world and so you know for example what's happening in top shot is you know if you if you buy a thing off of a player you know it shows up as hey you bought it off of you know josh hart or whatever and that's that's that's viewed positively in sort of the top shot community it's almost like the player signed your thing right you got it off the player they they sort of they interact with it so what's that equivalent like not necessarily for nba players but you know for top collectors for for i don't know i just think there's such a wealth of information in in block explorers and and and i've been that's something i've been harping on for for a little while that's awesome so hopefully hopefully we'll see some attempts uh in two days on something like this and i'll be sorry to follow up if we do and uh maybe one other question that i'll try my luck on any any hints about what's coming after top shot like i said i mean we want to make do a good job with top shot and we want to help others be successful on flow i mean we've already announced you know ufc is one of our big partners super excited about that um dr seuss um and others there are few doctors like things that are going to be lighter weight you know uh maybe kind of even more mainstream and so and so we're really excited about that but but kind of me personally and and what we're trying to put energy behind is let's make some other folks successful uh on flow on ethereum let's help sort of uh arc cross the mainstream and and be sort of something that that um you know is uh has a lot of staying power that's all i'll take it um one thing i've been asking all almost all of our panelists today is uh um i think you sort of talked about this is like the the dot com sort of stage of just what the internet was uh 20 years ago and i think right now nfts sort of are being treated as as the same as just digital art and and obviously the surface is a lot larger than just being art or or sort of paintings or images what do you kind of think um the next kind of evolution of nfts are like do you do you think there's a do we need a better definition or can you give us a like paint us a picture for what else kind of falls into the categories and what people should be excited about and and how big can this uh actually get i mean i think you're already seeing nfts as like promissory notes and insurance contracts and things and you know there's been months ago but like those kinds of things just don't capture popular imagination right and things that don't capture to the imagination don't break through the noise that we all kind of live in with notifications and sort of the bubble that we already all have surround ourselves with so so so i think that those things will happen and you know real estate leases and like all these things are going to be non-fungible tokens but i think the next big sort of mindset shift when people really start to understand the power of nft is when you can use them in actual games in sort of 3d worlds like actual video games that millions of people use uh if those assets start becoming real then wow like then those people's parents really understand it right and then and then those those people already understand digital ownership but now they understand the wait a second um i could do this in fortnight now this blockchain thing gives me this whole like series of right rights essentially right their property rights they're sort of they're things that we consider almost inalienable in sort of the physical world and then in the digital world we're just happy sort of giving away everything to you know the facebooks or or you know uh others of the world so i i think it's going to be games i think that's going to change people's minds on like what can be nft because if my digital land can be an nft why can't my physical line be an empty if my digital you know uh loan between you and me that's that little promissory note can be an nft why can't my you know why can't my accountant sort of use that or or whatnot i just think there's going to be years of people having to experience things in games and virtual environments before they're comfortable you know the late adopters before they're comfortable putting you know their wealth and sort of the things that they consider you know 401k and and all this stuff right like we forget that most people that that's they're still in that sort of you know most people here might have a big chunk of their wealth in crypto most people are like one to five percent even if they have any you know and so so it's sort of a and and and the other thing i was like saying is the people that wanted to get into crypto because of the anyone who who you know isn't scared of crypto in some ways is already in crypto because you've seen it go like that for for a decade now i mean why wouldn't you be in if unless for other reasons that you're afraid of it you think it's a scam you think it's you know it's not legitimate you're no one's taking the time to explain to you and so like that's a big part of you know um i think the thing we can all do and the products we build is make it usable and and sort of bring people in without them even noticing that's absolutely wonderful um that's a really cool perspective and i feel like i've uh um i've seen you sort of answer this differently in a few other interviews so what it kind of says there is not even just after there's so much activity happening in this space right now the past three or four months have just been absolutely um kind of exponential on the interest that's happened in this space and if someone were to ask you is this a bubble how do you kind of think about this and how do you respond yeah look i answer it differently every time i've i've um um uh i mean in general i think it's it's interviews work better if you're more authentic rather than sort of prepared and whatnot but but the bubble thing look like everything's available now in in some ways but then in what in what denomination are you in what sort of currency are you denominating the bubble and that's the biggest bubble of all and so what does it actually mean for for for us as entrepreneurs and builders i'm not i'm not sure um i think um what i'm trying to do is is sort of put the problem right now is that in these current environments everything works you know whether you you put up you know pixelated anything or you work with any celebrity with any twitter following you put something on people will buy it and and like that's not a good you know you can do that to sort of make hay while the sun shines but i think it's good to focus on hey what's coming over the horizon what are the fundamentals and let's sort of ignore the noise and and escape to where the puck is going um and so in some sense i don't care if it's a bubble or not i think if you're an entrepreneur you should raise money right now that's that's that's one like is it a bubble well you should raise money so maybe that's the answer um but but look i think fred airson put this really well peak euphoria helps people see the future and and like right now is a time when people are sort of you know poking their head on we're like wait a second all of these things that we took for granted maybe we shouldn't take them for granted and that process is going to work several months and people's minds will be blown that wait a second we can have software that we can have a stake in and and dallas haven't even started going to public consciousness the idea that as individuals we don't need anybody to help us govern a thing we can govern it directly right like ancient greece democracy instead of you know uh uh uh whatever system we have today um but but then people are gonna realize wait a second the tech's still not there yet we still need an asset option right like you need you need uh you know a billion uh uh wallets in a billion people's pockets before they can start voting on things right like there's it's gonna take a little bit of time to sort of deliver what people expect but that's a good thing about entrepreneurs we can sort of ignore that the surface or waves and just you know keep keep kind of keep swimming towards the right destination i'm mixing all the analogies today this is no this is working really well in your favor so don't don't worry i think one of the other answers you've kind of talked about in the past is that i think in most cases bubble imply and exit and uh and if you talk to a lot of people especially the ones that are collecting it they're not interested in selling um and and uh the demand is for people wanting to own it not because they're they can get like direct money from it or they want to flip it and and that's been the change that it's very noticeable if you have seen the past few years of how this piece has evolved and to me that's a really good sign on on seeing this actually becoming more mainstream and top shot is definitely one of the the key players in making that possible and putting that in front of hundreds of thousands of people um yeah nft is that to be clear nfts are the least bubbly of the bubble uh that i believe in despite the high numbers yep that's sounds really fair um that's all i had honestly i feel like this is a pretty good note to end on i don't want to jump into a bunch of other tangents i feel like my takeaway from this entire conversation is that you started from an experiment and that became a feature that we're all here experiencing and on top of all that i feel like gaming and just the thought that's been put into designing these products has sort of become i feel like the de facto way of getting people to care about decentralization without having to worry about the technicality of what that means and and to me that's absolutely incredible it all started at a youth global hackathon so i i can't wait to see what comes out this weekend we have 500 people specifically building in this realm and uh let's hope the next few years are set up for even a much bigger wave of creative ideas so raham thank you so much for uh for chatting with us today and uh we'll be sure to tell you what comes out of this take care everybody so much and with that we are finally at an end for our nfc summit i want to especially thank zora for being our presenting sponsor and and being with us on helping curate this content and all the talks that we've done together um i want to thank all few hundred of you who've been around this entire day interacting with us talking to us on discord and on our tv chat and just what i'll do is i'll just stop talking and uh i want to just say thank you so much and and happy hacking uh we'll all be on discord now that'll be a lot of talk still going on today and tomorrow but we'll see all of you back here on sunday with our finalists for this hackathon so thanks so much and i hope you have a great rest of the weekend and happy hacking one more time