Double Headed Interview with Jeremy Allaire

Jeremy, welcome to Abu Dhabi Finance Week and our event onsite. It's so great to have you here. Thanks again for joining in.

Great to be here. Thank you.

So, let's talk about what we're seeing right now in this space because you have argued that stable coins will ultimately become the core plumbing of global finance. I want your take on this. How close are we to that reality today?

Yeah, you know, the the the framing I like to use is um you know, a as as an infrastructure. We think about technology infrastructures or internet infrastructures, these phases we've gone through. We all remember the the phase of the web coming and then broadband and then mobile platforms and cloud platforms and and now we really have two new major technology platform paradigms. one which is AI platforms which I think broadly we can all agree are not just an actual new infrastructure energy compute uh uh uh inference etc but are actually almost like operating systems they they do work for us they automate they do they conduct tasks and so we have this sort of um automation operating systems this very very different set of infrastructure which is a itself going through an inflection point after about 15 years of of really exploring. The other is these blockchain networks which similarly actually have been around for about 15 years um and have recently gone through some major maturation.

And when we look at this technology um we look at these two key uh pivotal infrastructures, AI infrastructure and blockchain infrastructure as in some ways two sides of the same coin, no pun intended. um blockchain networks really represent the uh the economic operating systems that we're going to build future economic infrastructure on top of. And so if in some ways AI is uh these AI platforms are kind of the the nervous system, the information going about the circulation of value is going to happen on these blockchain networks. So we're hitting an inflection point in technology maturity and and we'll come back to it. It it actually this infrastructure increasingly is going to be infrastructure that is backto back with compute clusters, inference clusters, AI agents and other things.

But we'll maybe come back to that in the conversation. I think at a practical level um in a world where more and more of our economic activity is going to be conducted between uh AI and AI agents on the internet and where we we haven't had an infrastructure that is built for the internet for economic coordination that is where we're seeing this come in and now if we look at the numbers which gets back to your question it has arrived I mean just take take for example our stable coin network in Q3 handled $10 trillion of transaction volume and that's up 580% year-over-year. And if you look at what's happening with stablecoin money, these digital dollars, it's just growing around the world. And so um we we now have this programmable financial infrastructure uh which never existed before and and people are really leaning in. What's also quite interesting to me is that through the most recent crypto route that we've seen over the last couple of weeks, there was money moving out of Bitcoin but actually flowing into stable coins, which tells me that money is staying inside the system despite that recent bout of volatility.

Um, question for you though, Jeremy, on this because of course one of the key trades that we've been watching through the course of this year is investors staying long USD. Does USDC ultimately strengthen or weaken the US dollar as the world's reserve currency?

Well, I think um there's sort of a couple questions here. I think one is what are going to be the primary digital currencies used on the internet? If we're going to have internet native digital currency, which we do now, uh what are going to be the primary currencies? If we look at the world today, and energy is a great example of that. energy transactions, energy and commodity sales overwhelmingly financed, traded and and sold in dollars.

Um, and you know, there's some uh hemming and hawing about that. And you know, there have been sanctions issues that have caused people to worry about that. There's debt issues people worry about. Those are all real. At the end of the day, uh the the network effects and the liquidity that exist for the dollar are very strong.

And I think um when you think about an upgraded digital dollar, if you think about a technological upgrade to the dollar, um well ststructured regulated stable coins like USDC uh will strengthen the dollar. uh they will provide more competitiveness for it, more utility for it, more global reach and in turn what is the dollar other than the underlying debt instruments of the US government and the the the legal and regulatory structure of stable coins under US federal law, the Genius Act, which was passed this summer, really requires that we are holding these US Treasury bills. And so not only does it extend the utility of the dollar around the world, it also creates demand for the US sovereign debt and uh and so that strengthens the dollar because in a sense those are you know again two sides of the same coin.

Um I've got some very basic questions for you but I I'll just follow up first of all on the point you were just making there as well and and Dan talking about the crypto draw down the concerns there as well. It's adding a lot of volatility into crypto uh even into USDC. Um it's adding volatility into the AI use case in many cases. Well, does that have ramifications for the investment scenario? It's not going to be linear the investment as well.

We know that it's going to be lumpy, but do you think that when you see major events as we've seen from the October highs of crypto to now and the follow-through effects that's going to have ramifications on risk appetite and therefore the amount of money that gets invested?

Well, I think there's a couple things. If if people are are speculating on an asset because they think it's some something like gold um and uh and and then there's a macro shift where the the the risk profile shifts and the investment profile away from a hedging asset happens. That's normal course, right? That just happens. Uh and I think it what we've historically seen is um assets like Bitcoin uh you know trade in line with other risk assets broadly.

Um and obviously the AI mag7 phenomenon has changed some of that some because it's sort of that's its own behavioral dynamic in a sense as opposed to sort of broad-based technology risk. Um and um but but also the magnitude of volatility has tended to be a multiple sometimes twice the volatility. Uh but the volatility has come down overall but twice the volatility. But I I think like you have to separate out there's technology infrastructure that is all of you know these economic operating systems these blockchain networks all the software infrastructure all of the financial intermediaries products and services globally that are being built up around this. You have to really separate that out from,

you know, pe people who are are are focused narrowly on like digital commodity trading and speculation. Sure. Because they're fundamentally different. Sure.

Uh in their in their uh in their behavior.

Okay. Um before I go on, by the way, I've just remembered you guys want to play on this one as well. You got your old friend Slido to get involved in as well. So Slido to get your questions in. There's two of us now, so you probably won't get a word in edgeways, but we'll try and get one or two in near the end of this as well before we get to his excellency in the next panel.

Um, but but but no, you mentioned gold there. I'm I'm going to challenge you on this one, Jeremy, because nobody says to me that gold is the tail wagging the dog of the global markets of investment. One thing I have noticed that Bitcoin and crypto and investments in stable coin, it does seem to be that it is a leading indicator on risk appetite as of late. Now, I I wonder if you'll challenge that as well, but when I see that dictating whether people are more excited about or not in investing in AI or or AI infrastructure both in the private or public markets, then I start questioning its role.

Yeah. I mean look you have to look again like in like just take the internet as a technology okay when billions and billions of dollars went into building the initial infrastructure for dialing up to the internet and building websites and building online services the dotcom boom we all remember it extremely well um all of that was all all these are valid investments it's that the infrastructure readiness wasn't there and the capital overreach the readiness. That's the debate we're having about the AI bubble now. Is that going to be the case there? successive waves which was say the broadband capex wave and the mobile you know fixed wireless uh and and and wireless capex wave and the coming online of the new software utilities that made possible was another big capex wave that then brought on top of it a a huge value of software development that then unlocked again user utility and and act and and and uh and so forth.

Blockchain network expansion is no different. We're seeing capital formation in tens of thousands of companies around the world. We're seeing major companies investing in the infrastructure. I'm not talking about speculating on assets. I'm talking about actually building the infrastructure.

And that's what people should be paying attention to.

Where are we? Are we are we about to have an iPhone moment? Are we about to have a Netscape moment? These moments in time

or Jeremy, are we about to have a Cisco moment? And look, I I I've I've followed you and I agree with you. We're talking about the real capital rather than the spective.

What I can tell you is

and it took 20 odd years for Cisco to get back to where it is now.

What I can tell you is is that the the number of major institutions, major financial institutions, the world's leading financial institutions, the world's leading asset managers, the world's leading payment companies, the most important systemic financial market utilities in the world. Every single one of these is leaning into building in this infrastructure right now. And that has nothing to do with the price of Bitcoin. That has to do with an upgrade to economic operating systems that run infrastructure to facilitate a better financial system that is built up on this technology. They're very they're very separated.

They're they're correlated in people's minds, but these are very very separated uh uh infrastructures. And again I I do want to come back to the connection between AI and and and crypto as well which is a a huge connection and ties back to the financing of energy as well. Let's talk about that and also I think also thinking about the impact on energy here particularly when it comes to commodity trading today commodity trading you know really linked to these legacy payment rails antiquated infrastructure it's slow using the USD what happens to global commodity trading particularly around you know oil for example when we see a tokenized dollar being able to settle 24/7 in real time

it's a it's a huge opportunity for the entire energy industry and I'll tell tell you a couple stories that bring this to life. Um you know the the price discovery on energy and on commodities like you know oil etc. The price discovery of that is executed in futures markets and and the biggest futures markets in the world are you know some of these platforms like the CME and many other derivatives exchanges around the world and the heaviest users of those platforms are the are the are these big markets and trading firms who provide the liquidity to provide the price discovery that ultimately allow for the best you know the best contracts to be made available to So that infrastructure as you said still requires you know in some days multiple days to get collateral in place to actually get settlement done etc. Now these exact same firms who are at the core of energy's futures trading are also the very largest firms trading crypto. They're literally the same firms the systemic electronic markets firms and trading firms.

And what's interesting is that all of those firms use stable coins like USDC and all of those firms have now execute trading strategies on markets like Binance which is you know here now in ADGM uh derivatives markets that are 247 365 with the ability to do real time positioning of collateral real time margin uh real time settlement and they run constantly and so all of these big firms that are at the core of the way the these in in some ways more advanced markets now work are basically coming to us and they're coming to the big derivatives exchanges and the platforms that actually provide the infrastructure for price discovery on commodities and saying why can't we do this over here why can't we have these dramatically more efficient not just markets but also kind of fundamental settlement and in In fact, just in the past couple of weeks, we've seen the Commodities Futures Trade Commission uh interim chair Carolyn Fam rolling out uh concrete proposals that are going to be embedded in rulemaking that will allow us to upgrade our our futures markets and our and effectively the the the the fundamentals of price discovery on energy futures using stable coins as the as a settlement asset, as a collateral asset, etc. So these are coming together and it's all about capital efficiency, speed, time to settlement which in these markets as you know is is very very vital.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is so interesting. So just with regards to the timeline on this, do you expect the major commodities oil, LNG, hydrogen, uh even carbon trading to be eventually settled on chain and and if so when?

I mean inevitably every single one of these will be settled on chain and they'll be settled on chain using stable coins. they'll be settled on chain using tokenized deposits which is another token tokenized money form and um it it you know these the medium of exchange again the what I call these economic operating systems can actually codify in code the contracts themselves the delivery side of the contracts the accounting side of the contracts all of the proof points along the way for what takes place in the in the markets not just move value from point point A to point B. It's the the totality of the economic contract that will become automatable in very different ways and and and running on these networks. And so as that happens, the native money will also need to be there. And so it what what's happening around the world is, you know, the UAE is a great example of that.

The UAE has been, you know, really at the forefront of enshrining in law support for stable coins. There's now robust stable coin regime here. Um, and you know, we're obviously in the US, Europe, and other markets. And what that I think will translate to is that the CFOs, the treasurers, the the guys and gals that are actually buying and selling and and who are in the core of this are going to effectively um be able to treat this as an equivalent infrastructure to the legacy international banking uh rails as well. And that's that's on the horizon uh as we speak.

Now that's some of that's happening uh ad hoc uh today but on a broader basis uh I think that will play out um more substantively over the next couple years.

Um just want to say thank you to all our um audience who are putting questions in. We'll come to those in a few moments time. By the way, Anchor, wherever you are, you're fast becoming my favorite uh audience member. You're keeping me going. Thank you.

Um but I want to ask you some really basic questions. I'm gonna go way back down. This is my one. Um, do you know your energy usage?

Excuse me.

Do you know your energy usage at work?

I do not.

Isn't that extraordinary? I mean, I just, you know, we're talking about the the marriage here of AI and stable coin uh and technology and the energy usage. And there's so many of us. I I couldn't tell you what my energy usage is as well. Do you know what percentage and again I'm not trying it's not a gotcha.

I genuinely what percentage of your energy usage is coming from renewables?

I do not know the answer to that.

And again, I don't either.

I don't know. And and actually, let me ask you, I'm going to ask you to put your hands up and and and and and this is an honest question. And Mayor Kulpa, I have not got a clue. How many of you know, put your hand up if you know what percentage of your energy usage comes from clean tech or renewables? There's a of course the lady from the nuclear association I would have known that if there's anybody else two people so I think let's say there's three people there's probably 200 150 200 people in this room and we're talking about one one and a half% of us actually know there's an action point ladies and gentlemen let's all go away and in the next couple and I'll test you all you can all email me but we but we should know we should be doing that do you think that the industry as a whole Jeremy should be working harder on And again, this isn't this is something about myself.

I do not know what percentage of my energy usage is clean tech.

I I think everyone should know and I think uh our assurance firms and and and our uh our uh audit firms and and uh and then sort of our vendors should all help us with that. Um and obviously there have been proposals on you know kind of accounting methods on this that have not been consistently rolled out or rolled out but um it it is it is something that I believe everyone should uh work to understand

because I mean one thing I'm sure you do know your your utility costs must as you've expanded and become you know ubiquitous and stable coin is just you know USDC brilliant growth the the energy usage must have gone up exp not exponentially but quite a significantly. Yeah, I I think for for us in particular, say Circle as a whole, we don't have a lot of footprint. We've got about,00 employees with laptops and we use the cloud for our software, right? So, so for us, we're like, uh, we're we're we don't got, you know, we're not making cement and all that stuff, but um, uh, but the the the blockchain networks, uh, you know, sit in data centers and validate transactions and those those are used and we actually can estimate basically the consumption of blockchain infrastructure that we that we use. I we can estimate.

I I don't have that number in front of you, but I think we're um

we're a significant volume of transactions on some of these networks. Um and and each of those do in fact some of those networks do publish uh their own kind of energy footprint as well. So we could by proxy get get our way there and it's a great thing and and I'm going to make sure my team uh you know

well I think and the growth in the accelerated service servers part of data centers is somewhere in the region of like 30% a year. So we're talking enormous numbers here. So sorry I've given you all homework and I certainly wasn't trying to pick on Jeremy. I'm picking on all of us including myself. Let's all go and find out how much of our energy is coming from clean tech.

Daniel going to get it back on track. Well, to Steve's point and as an extension of that as well, Jeremy, do you think that the energy intensity of the industry is going to be a barrier for future development?

So, there's a there's mythology here, right? The the overwhelming majority of activity on blockchain networks is not energy intensive. uh Bitcoin itself which is not is is a a very small percentage of the transactional activity in this whole industry is still a proofof work mining based energyintensive based system but basically all other networks that and and in fact every network that circles infrastructure runs on use something called proof of stake where um it they're dramatically lower energy footprint uh and and that was a very explicit change that was made where um you know networks saw that they could use people staking value and putting kind of value at risk to provide security models for these decentralized networks and that model has really taken off and so the footprint there uh is absolutely uh significantly lower and and I would argue lower than even your typical kind of cloud compute type of of infrastructure uh as well. So um it isn't for stable coin networks and sort of broader tokenization and so on. It is not um you know it is not an impediment right it sort of generally behaves like people who are maybe there's more websites being built on Amazon or Azur or Google cloud uh there's you know more blockchain apps similar type of of uh I think uh inputs so to speak into the infrastructure side

Jeremy I I think again I'm I'm here to answer all the obvious questions as well but I'm just you you mentioned about the the regulations um and and the roll back. Is it as you expected it would be under this administration in the United States as well? Um, one reason cited why crypto has come off is that people were actually underwhelmed by the emphasis and the impetus that the administration is putting behind blockchain and crypto as well. Have things panned out this year as you expected? And if not, where do you hope to see greater impetus?

Well, a couple things. I mean, it's been it's been extraordinary. We've seen um the first major piece of financial regulation passed in the United States in decades. The Genius Act was an act that really got its uh uh its footing as a major Democratic initiative and then the job got done on a bipartisan basis between uh Republicans and Democrats. a very bipartisan bill, supermajority in the Senate, a huge majority in the House, something that leading Democrats and Republicans wanted.

It changes the the fundamental banking regulatory regime to accommodate this new type of electronic money, these new digital dollars. Uh it is about dollar competitiveness, economic competitive, national security, and that's a huge win. And that obviously for us as the leading regulated stable coin network in the world is critical. and it's led to as I mentioned earlier all of these companies coming into this space. So it has surpassed my expectations on that and then there's other regulatory work that's happening which by all measures appears on track to become passed into law uh likely in the first quarter of of next year.

again, very bipartisan, not just a Trump administration uh issue, a bipartisan issue and will cement the United States potentially as the leading jurisdiction for digital asset markets. That's a very big deal. And then the regulators themselves have been uh you know effectively making it clear to banks, to securities firms, to asset managers, to technology companies, you can use this technology, just do it with good risk management. And so that's allowing more and more major firms to get in and and that's driving activity as well. So all that is is good and and so um we're I think we're in the best position we've ever been in and not just in the United States but all around the world.

Every major government is racing to put in place sound policy in this space because the technology upgrades that are happening here are happening so quickly. Jeremy, the old trope is our stable coin is anything other than stable. Have you alleviated those concerns?

I mean, Circle from inception has designed what we do as a regulated product that by law is required to have redeemability, have narrowly defined reserves under strict supervision by payments and banking regulators, and we're regulated, I think, by over 50 different regulators around the world, or something close to that. Um I think uh uh so the way we do things maybe isn't the way every everyone else has done things. I mean of the hundreds of stablecoin projects launched I I think a very small number were actually even regulated products. Uh but but now with the Genius Act, with MA in Europe, with the UAE stable coin laws, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, all these critical markets all having stable coin laws, they're very strict about the the high quality liquid assets that back these uh these digital currencies, the redemption rights, the supervisory rights, all of the credential supervision that's needed to make this a critical part of our financial market infrastructure, which it's becoming. And so while there may be players who remain offshore and don't really want to come into a regulated regime, I think the market will decide with its with its with its its votes so to speak what infrastructure they trust, what's transparent and what actually has exceptional liquidity.

I mean I think um you know we've we've create we've minted and redeemed over a trillion dollars of USDC. We've never once not redeemed a dollar one for one. Wow. And so that's critical. Uh and so that's the kind of infrastructure that people are going to need to depend on.

And I think the regulations are are catching up and saying, "Hey, you can't just go and launch a stable and namely stable coin as you uh as you I think correctly pointed out as which has historically really been a problem.

We do have some terrific questions coming through. I can also see on my iPad here that the questions are filling up. So if you do have a question for Jeremy, please submit it now using the QR code and we'll do our best to

or we just answer questions from anchor.

Exactly.

Fine by me.

Exactly. We can we can do that as well. Um but Jeremy, I wanted to bring it back to the Gulf as well because Abu Dhabi and and the UAE in particular have been quite early adopters of digital assets. Of course, Abu Dhabi also home to Binance, world's largest crypto exchange. and we saw a $2 billion investment via MGX into Binance that was actually paid for using stablecoin as well.

Um, so interesting. So, so what are you seeing that is attracting you to the UAE and to the Gulf broadly? And what are you seeing on the regulation side that's different here compared to the United States or Europe? Well, I think the first is as you noted uh the UAE in certain markets uh you know in Dubai but also especially here in ADGM have been first. They've moved faster.

They've figured it out. They've taken a very pragmatic practical approach. In fact, when we launched USDC in 2018, uh ADGM was the first regulator regulator in the world to review it for safety and soundness and to approve it for use by by market participants in the ADGM which was which was way ahead of the curve. Um I think um you know the the digital asset rules uh rules for building uh Dows uh stable coin rules um again you know the the the jurisdiction here has has moved I think as as as steady or or more quickly than most other jurisdictions. I think um what we you know what we see here is a is a few things.

I think the first is yes pragmatic but strong regulation and supervision. we see access to one of the most dynamic regional markets in the world. This is becoming a huge concentrator of trade flows uh not just in the Gulf but more broadly regionally uh you know spanning you know uh Africa, South Asia, Southeast Asia, the whole region and and obviously globally as well in the commodity space. So a huge space and when we look at this technology in particular um you know stable coins and blockchain networks are going to be really good at supporting um businesses who have crossborder as part of what they do and it's the very strong fit to crossborder and I think this is a this is already obviously a crossber hub it's going to be a bigger crossber hub as you can see just walking around and so I think that makes it one of the most attractive markets in the world and why we've been investing uh to really uh you know grow here as well.

Should we do it then Dan? Should we get to the audience?

Let's do it.

They they've they've once again delivered

I think very apt question considering what you just said about the Middle East and about the UAE is how is circle navigating and this is from Zein. Um thank you. How is circle navigating regulation in the Middle East and UAE? What challenges and opportunities do you see for stablecoin? Well, that's three questions but we can allow that.

Yeah. So I think the first is, you know, making sure that a hub jurisdiction like like the UAE is one where we are well regulated. Uh and and we've we've been working very very hard on that and are excited about the progress that we're making and and hopefully we'll have more things to share about that this week. Um but um

do you want to share now? I think you've obviously got some news, Jeremy.

I don't I don't but we're telling we're excited about what's happening here. Um I think uh secondly is to the comment I made earlier is the region as a whole there there are you know again across Middle East into South Asia into a parts of Africa when you think about the region as a whole and this as a financial hub and a trade hub stable coins have already become so important if you look at markets like Turkey Egypt uh you know some of the East African republics Nigeria Pakistan um you and and and many other markets uh stable coins have become uh s very significant and so I think when you get regional hubs building rules then these other I think other uh markets follow suit and so what we're now seeing and this is both a challenge and an opportunity is governments like Turkey and Pakistan and Nigeria and Kenya and South Africa and others uh and and obviously large players regionally here like Saudi really looking at this and some of them with draft legislation coming out. And so we're staying in touch with all those governments. We want to make sure that if they're going to have clear rules that you know, you know, quality well-regulated well-regulated infrastructure can work in in those markets. Um and so um you know that's key get getting that in place.

Uh and I think we'll see that accelerating in 2026.

I really like this question from Steve's best friend anchor as well also coming through. So let's go to this one next. Central banks, governments appear unwilling to give up their ability to wield influence as they do through fiat. They want stable coins but on their own terms. Your thoughts?

Yeah, I mean this this comes back to this the question earlier about you know the role of the dollar as well and and I think um uh we we've certainly seen uh stable coin growth in countries around the world where you know households and businesses are saying hey this is great I have digital dollars I can transact with people I can transact internationally and I I kind of compare it to when people figured out they could you know download WhatsApp and then communicate with people no matter what country they lived in you you know, sort of the internet, right? And it and it makes sense. Um, but at the same time, right, you need that local currency integration. And so, I think our view has been um we want to build the best infrastructure possible for uh local governments and their let's call it their champion financial firms uh to build stable coins on their own terms. So uh the ARC network which is our blockchain network infrastructure uh launched with I think nearly 10 uh or was announced with nearly 10 different local stable coins from Latin America, Africa uh uh parts of Asia and we expect most governments to have rules and to work with their firms to have local currency stable coins working because onchain money, programmable money that can run on these new economic operating systems is just as valuable if it's a Nigerian naira stable coin as it is a dollar.

It's the the technology unlocks that and and then you can bring those together through um FX markets that are built entirely on blockchain networks and get atomically swappable real time cleared and settled FX as well. And so those things start to come together and we we launched something recently in test uh in a test phase called stable FX which basically is a is a markets infrastructure for all these different stable coins from all around the world for local government supervised and local currency stable coins to have markets together that can clear against each other and against things like USDC as well. Um, VI is the next question up on the list there is, will the next major crypto companies be energy companies, compute companies, or AI companies? Do you have a view on this one? Well, it's a it's actually a really good question and you know I think um uh it's you know when when when I look at companies domestically here like G42 which you know kind of integrates a lot of different pieces but also is partnering with the biggest AI platform companies the biggest chip companies the biggest data center builders hyperscalers but is also vertically integrating a lot of stuff you know I don't know what how I'd describe a company like that is that an energy an AI and a and a compute company u uh maybe it's all three but there's there's there's value chains there and there's value chains that are integrated and I think my view is that the value chain of AI infrastructure the compute the data centers the inference infrastructure and the clouds that sit there is going to converge with these new economic operating systems they will they will they're handing glove.

Um, in a world where economic activity is increasingly in is increasingly executed by work conducted by AI, you need these uh decentralized trust networks that are for economic coordination to make them work. And so I actually think they'll you'll see more and more alignment in that space. Uh and and that's something that we think about when we think about how Arc Network is going to grow and be deployed around the world. Um I don't know I I I well I guess I'd say this. I think financial internet financial platform companies like Circle are going to be significant standalone internet platform companies.

Uh just like AI platform companies will be standalone uh in in many cases uh and energy companies will in many cases be standalone as well. Yeah,

I love this next question as well. This one's for the traders out there. What do you do with the interest coupon collected on the T bills that back USDC?

So, a couple things I think. The first is um just to understand the way that that we work. So, we run a stable coin network. That network consists of all of our infrastructure all around the world to provide the what I call the digital dollar dial tone in all the banking systems and markets around the world. All the regulatory infrastructure, all the infrastructure to make this work across 30 different blockchain networks and and and make that reliable and always work.

And so we provide that to the public internet. And our stablecoin network is essentially a free public utility on the internet. any developer, any person, anyone with an idea can basically uh access a dollar digital currency payment system at virtually no cost. And so that's a huge amount of value that we provide to the world and it has unlocked a lot. Now with that, we uh we hold uh you know all these trillions of dollars of transactions run on that and people build it into their products and services and they get that for free.

um we hold the money stock behind it and we hold it in things like T- bills per the question and um Circle takes that as our uh one of our biggest sources of our topline revenue. But what we also do is we work with the biggest distributors in the world to to basically build distribution relationships where we take some of that income and we distribute it out and share it out to uh distributors that are marketing, distributing, doing product integration. So think Binance, Coinbase, many many others. Um, and so we're we're really focused on growth and incentives that build this into more and more products and services. Uh, and then they themselves may have, you know, um, programs for their users that are beneficial as well.

But fundamentally, we keep that top line, but then we build distribution partners and, uh, you can look at our public financials to sort of see exactly what that all looks like.

Jeremy, um, absolutely fascinating. Genuinely, I've learned an enormous amount today and there's a lot I need to go home and do my homework on as well. But thank you very much indeed. It's been absolutely fascinating and and I think we've all learned something from Jeremy Lair, who is the CEO of Circle. Thank you very much indeed for that.