Shaping CBDCs & Stablecoins for Consumers and Businesses

[Music] premium [Music] be.com is it working hi hi hello hello everyone um and Welcome to our panel discussion on cbdc stable coins um for consumers and businesses uh I'm I'm delighted to uh moderate this panel here today um While most of you are probably very familiar with what cbdcs and stable coins are perhaps worthwhile just sort of uh reiterating that when we we talking about cbdcs we are talking about virtual or digital money um issued and backed by central banks whereas stable coins we're talking about cryptocurrencies that are pegged or tied to fiat currency um or commodity or financial instruments we want to kick off our discussions really with um cbdcs and while sort of stable coins and cryptocurrencies have been around for almost 10 to 15 years and have more and become more and more popular some of the central banks uh may may have thought that they need to sort of provide an alternative uh to to have still some relevance at this moment we we know that there are about30 countries globally that are looking into cbdcs uh 19 out of the G20 countries are uh in the advanced stage of cbdc developments um we have uh as of today I believe there are around 11 countries that have already launched a um digital currencies these include Nigeria the most populous African country which has a DLT based um cbdc um we have some uh cariban countries that have sort of also launched them in China we have a pilot project that reaches about 260 million people um and sort of they are testing it on over 200 scenarios and that includes public transit uh stimulus payments or e-commerce here in Europe we uh the ECB is on track to begin its pilot and uh is starting its preparation phase on the 1st of November uh over 20 years uh over 20 countries have uh so far um in in 2023 uh started piloting uh cbdcs uh we know that India and Brazil are planning to launch uh cbdc next year and and um if we look at cbdcs I think it's always worthwhile pointing out that um it can be either blockchain based or DLT based but it can also uh be running on traditional payments and I think the uh ECB is uh the prominent example for that sort of with that in mind uh turning now to um our distinguished panelist perhaps a question to all of you um where do you see really the use cases for cbdcs I mean is it more retail is it more wholesale and where do you think in in your view are we uh in this journey um starting perhaps with um Dr Shams do you all right good morning everybody I'm uh Dr sham I from Malaysia the uh we I'm a CTO and chief strategies for the M chain we've been working with the Malaysia government um past two years from the uh exploring and to the uh coming into proof of concept to the uh actually uh pilot stage and the uh we gone through stages of the experience and the challenges the are the uh to understanding the what is the differ between digital currency and the crypto currency from the start um as we know the all the uh uh crypto currency is not uh the uh is a digital currency but digital currency is not cryptocurrency so we got to start from there and they are encrypting the the the payment systems for the dldt next challenge is the uh we do not know where are the originality we have the uh wallet that coming in going out proving on the transaction hedge and the Second Challenge when we solve that with the proof of concept of identity the Second Challenge came the disconfort of the uh the dldt being public Ledger Central bank's datas are being trans the uh exposed so the uh which we provided the DFS to encrypt the all the transactions that the uh the on the uh centralized exchange to be a private can contain and see and that break through the Journey and the okay sarin do you want to so I think that it's a long journey for most of the central banks to really launch a cbdc retail and wholesale and the use case depends on what you're looking at if you're looking at a retail cbdc then traditional Payment Systems may be enough but if you look at a wholesale cbdc then of course you need a DLT base um when I look at the digital Euro then I would say we can come back to the use cases later I think but uh in the end the traditional payment systems are enough and the question is who will do the other part must it be is it a central bank or will it be financial institutions or stable grounds Yeah question in the last couple of two years you know the idea of the Central Bank digital currency spread around the world but there are really key differences between the cdbc defin in each country uh you already mention retail against Wale but there are also other differences for example Financial inclusion is one of the most objective of the cbdcs but we can discuss differently about the financial inclusion in Africa for example compar with Europe when in Europe the unbanked population is a matter of choice not because they have a entry gate problem also we have to talk about the Privacy privacy and Security in China where there is the power of authority cannot compare with Europe and we have the gdpr for example also we have to talk about like like you mentioned about the blockchain digital Euro will not be based on blockchain at least not entirely and we have to continue programmability of of money digital Euro will not bear the functionality of programmability of the money but only the payments while other cdbd is already have embedded this programmability in the in their STS and we can continue this kind of differences legal tender in Europe we already have a law saying that the uh digital Euro will be a leg legal tender while in other countries they still investigating it to make it mandatory not mandatory so the use cases will definitely be very different depending on the region and the audience of the of the users okay yeah the the very different um uh drivers behind uh both um uh uh retail cdb cbdcs uh aim for uh avoiding social exclusion especially in emerging economies for more advanced economies they seek basically the protective uh policy monetary policies as in with with the European uh digital Euro but uh whilst wholesale cbdcs aim for uh enhancing crossb transactions basically and also uh they they they have the virtue to um to cover and and solve the mismatch of uh operating hours of opening operating hours between different jurisdictions which is a great uh virtue and also uh to uh try and and and shortening the length of the transaction change because they can get rid of certain intermediaries these wholesale cbdcs so which is a very cool uh characteristic so it is a Pity and we'll talk about that afterwards why the uh digital Euro it doesn't especially it's not it not it doesn't cast un cover disos yeah David so um I think we have to think about you know why are we using digital cache right so before we think about why we use cbdcs we need to think about what are the benefits of using e-money and the benefits are that you can program e- money you can basically program on top of this so you can build it into existing uh systems you can uh get better settlement so you can basically get almost instantaneous settlement depending on how you're setting things up um and um it basically creates a platform for inclusivity for different participants which is much easier than than traditional um let's say like Financial Services in in a way so this is the reason why we're basically you know using e-money in all of its forms and then why would be using cbdcs well the reason for using cbdcs is because it's backed by the central bank so it gives you security um so the security is against you know compared it to the Commercial Bank and obviously this depends on how uh it's been set up at the the central bank so obviously the more cbdc you can have the more security you have um and then the other thing um is around uh monetary policy I think this was mentioned before so it's it's about a protection um against for example private companies um especially some very big tech companies coming out and creating their own currencies and this having a major effect on how uh Financial Works inflation rates all of these things um so actually cbdc is in a way is about kind of protecting the interest of the public against these kinds of major corporations that might go out and build their own okay uh thank you all um going now or diving perhaps now uh a bit deeper in in in some of the use cases um and and sort of where we are sort of in the process um Christian I understand that you're also a member of The Advisory Group to the digital Euro or the industry ad Advisory Group to the digital Euros uh as mentioned earlier the ECB Council um decided last week to start the preparation phase um can you briefly explain sort of what have you experienced so far in the working group uh where are you and and and what will the preparation uh phase mean in practice well actually I cannot answer to this question what will be next because like you said it was just last week decided could or but I have a good really good impression in the last couple of a couple of years there a lot of things were developed a lot of things were decided and so on however just looking to the scheme rule book there are over 70 meaning 70 user stories there so when the analyzing all these CS several topics came up as not yet solved and still to be addressed in the Futures and I will just nominate few of them just to keep the the time here for example the fraud management who will bear the liability in case of a fraud the consumer the bank and so on then we have the dispute management definitely the European Central bank will not like to play the role of of the mediator between the banks and so on what happens if there is a problem with the wallets the consumer will call who will call the wallet issuer will call the bank W this account or if it's using the white labeled wallet from the ECB will call ECB there's no way to call ECB so all these kind of questions will have to be solved continuing with the with the privacy and security and also to the to the offline it is a feature which digital Euro will the offline but as we said before will not be based on the blockchain the G digital as such but how can you do an offline payments without having some kind of token and usually the tokens are based on the blockchain or something relative in in the same direction and we can continue go on and on with this kind of St programmability again it's again a topic so these topics have to be solved have to be discussed compensation model for I forgot this is really important because compensation model it's a it's a four corner model copied from the from the the card business however again the European Central Bank will not play the mediator role between the between the so all these topics definitely will be addressed in the next and as a nutshell the digital Euro and cdbc in general is not a new product or service it's an ecosystem in a change of the whole ecosystem and you have to take care that every single component it's adapted to uh fulfill the the the feature and objectives of the digital Euro and the cdbd in general yeah no thank you um several of you have mentioned you know that the the the digital Euro it's not really a DLT based one but it's probably mostly running on traditional Railways um Surin where where do you see sort of the advantages and and then again the use case for the digital euros and are there any limitations uh if so and and again what are the advantages or disadvantages compared to a DLT infrastructure so I think that the technological basis of a c cbdc must follow the targets you have and let me add one point I think that the discussion about the use case for a cbdc is somewhat misleading at least in case of the ECB we are talking a lot about what should it be um is there a market Gap um where was the unique selling point that's not the way a central bank thinks in my view they have geopolitical targets they have macroeconomic targets strategic targets monetary policy Target maybe but they don't look for more earnings and this is true for the digital Euro as well and the ecbs made clear that it has two Targets and to add one thing to Christian I don't think that they really want to discuss about these targets they have them they have a clear plan an ambitious schedule and they do what they want to do but that may be a bit too hard um the two Targets are they want to be uh they want to create an anchor for trust in the Euro as a currency and the financial system of the Euro Zone um in a case and the life when cash disappears more and more in daily life of people so they have the view that they must create a new anchor for a digitalized World in Europe so that's the first point and the second point they always emphasize is they want to have more sovereignity that's what um David said they want something as a counterpart to Visa Mastercard and PayPal and of course also to other big techs that may create their own money or even their own currency so and given that two Targets I would say looking at the technological basis this can be reached undoubtly with the traditional Payment Systems you don't need DLT for that nevertheless we need a DLT based Euro in the Euro Zone to exploit the potential that DLT undoubtedly has but this is not the task in my view of a central bank that's the task of financial institutions and Banks okay um Jose Louise do you also same question almost to you sort of do you think that digital Euro would be at the disadvantage sort of going forward and in the future uh considering that it's more traditional running on traditional AWS rather than DT absolutely I agree with what has been said um it would be a lost opportunity I think I mean I'm aligned with my colleagues that it all seems to indic indicate that it's not going to be DLT uh based but it's true that the proposal regulation for the digital Euro that was put forward in June uh it's still technology agnostic and it seems to delay the decision on the technology that's is going to underpin the digital Euro but as you said it all seems because of the rule book and the and the uh specifics that we know that it won't be the case and this will raise questions on interoperability in resilience obviously because of the um you know centralized systems have the uh one single point uh break or one single point uh um Interruption weakness as opposed obviously to decentralized systems which continue operating even if one c bank is down obvious and also in functionalities right especially as we advance I've been talking to people here over the last day we Advanced towards a tokenized uh ecosystem where it would be those fun functionalities of a c of of that kind of of digital currency based on a blockchain that would make sense with uh you know uh um Concepts such as tokenized deposits automatic instant settlements internationally etc etc so lost opportunity is the feeling okay um moving now a bit away from sort of our eurocentric view I mean we have Dr Shams um I understand that your company has interacted with the Central Bank of Malaysia and um they are actually planning something based on a sort of DT base and could you share some insights on the challenges that Central Bank might might face when transitioning from a centralized decision-making structure to a decentralized one um when they would issue uh cbdcs thank you this very relevant question I think um when we talking about DLT environment that the word centralization we have to clearly understand the authority the central centralization the wisdom is always at the top we have over years of experience and the uh the walks under central control system when we talk about these decentralize and their empowerment uh the issue is basically number one is to understand the technology Gap and number two that the what we face is that the disconfort the uh the uh the when we look at the let me get bring you a little bit attention on web to the uh the search of the uh 5.16 billion people adopted and this happened actually in 20 n because of the uh covid-19 and lockdown and situation FS all pops and Ms at home download the grab and uba and the e-commerce to interact the web to become today 64.4% occupied I mean the the uh adoption but for the uh present the uh the drive for use of cbdc will come from the two angle one is when we have like Asian we have the flood water flooded earthquake when you need to descend the AIDS you don't need to go through the intermediator to be dispersed the the millions of dollars to the end users so we can immediately send to the rightful people by having the the the uh the uh on the DLT and that has been the Turning Point apart from that the new generations the kids at home are already in web three in next five years you like or don't like it that will be the uh the usage of web 3 and the blockchain is imminent so it's really central banks understand that so they started with the testing on on the blockchain the dldg environment on wholesale bonds and their issuance and the are we have demonstrated that retail bonds when we have 29 million banking populations and it could easily monitor disperse and you actually encourage the public participation in Greater height so a lot of benefic against the the concern that we have that which is manageable centralized wisdom can be a preserve you don't you got to just share the your power of democracy to the decentralized environment without suffering the uh control aspect of wisdom and the knowledge to be still remain so the change in the Malaysia thank you um David um we've heard now about sort of two different cbdc projects I mean DLT based or or sort of non-dt based I understand your company is also working on sort of universal digital payments Network can you explain what it is and how it would relate actually to cbdcs sure so the um the universal digital payments Network or the udn um is a network um set up um and run by uh Network participants um who who are basically um uh creating an alliance and that Alliance um allows for um the swapping um and interchange of cbdcs and those could be centralized cbdcs or decentralized cbdcs and stable coins um and um this is done over a network so we have a permission Network in the middle which basically has a set of validators and these are the alliance members and then we have on one side we have business nodes which are a bit like the payment Gateway for businesses um or payment providers and on the other side we have transaction nodes and these Connect into either the blockchain in one case or centralized um Solutions in the case of Central Bank digital currencies so for example you know we're working with a lot of different blockchain providers um but we're also working with for example gash and Devan um who's a centralized um uh G uh centralized cbdc provider um and the other thing that that that you can do uh with this network is you can deploy smart contracts on top of it um so uh you can therefore deploy your business applications um on top of the actual Network itself and therefore get integration into a payment system um which uh allows you to be able to swap and transfer uh dig um these these uh these digital cash um assets and we only support um regulated feedback stablecoin um or cbdc um and at the moment we're basically at the process of let's say kind of like doing a lot of like poc's with uh Financial Services entities um with central banks um with um uh technology companies with um organizations such as I don't know like the bis or Regulators for example um where we're basically testing it out against I think we're going for like 10 different poc's this year and then hopefully next year we'll put this into production um with with maybe like one of these PCS and we're working with you know very large uh inst institutions for example like uh Deutsche Bank uh sander charted HSBC um BBVA um uh Bea uh lots of lots of very big uh Financial Service institions and we've been doing this for about three years now so it's quite quite mature if you compare it to the other interoperability solutions that we have but would it also sort of address I mean different cbdc projects I mean so that means they could also of become interoperable and and that wouldn't be an issue completely yeah so so this would be for example maybe just giving you an example if I wanted to pay you in um I don't know like digital dollar and you uh only had for example uh digital Euro then I could basically use the my digital dollar to be able to uh send um a request for payment through the network and the banks would work as an intermediary and it's the banks that own the transaction node on the network a bit like the correspondent banking model that we have today um that are basically working as intermediaries to be able to to be able to perform these swaps okay um caning once one more time back to sort of the digital Euro but also I I suppose generally to uh cbdcs I mean is there anything that central banks can do sort of to promote the use of cbdcs or incentivize consumers or commercial Banks I mean what what do you think would be needed Christian or Surin well uh the European Central Bank and central banks have definitely at least one important role to ensure the that the population has access in a time of Crisis to money so definitely this is one of the reasons and objectives of the digital Euro on the other side they do not want that the digital euro is very successful because they do not want to disturb the banks who are the anchor of the of the financial econom system and on the bank side I'm coming from a bank for us on the short term I do not see any kind of benefit for using a digital Euro definitely for us it's represent only cost and in terms of investment money but also you have to invest in new processes new people to hire new people new to train them with the new skills and so on so definitely for us it's a it's a it's a would be a noo if if we would have any kind of decision power in this case so that's why but also our dilemma is me as a bank shall I try to acquire as many customer as possible because otherwise they will go to another competitors and the competitors I do not mean only the other Banks but the competitors can be also other PSP payment service provider other side if I attract to many consumers new consumer on my side my cost will increase because everything I have to to invest money but digital Euro will be free of charge for any kind of services provided so that's why it's dilemma so I do not know that the European Central Bank will push very much yeah they will definitely they will communicate F and on the bank sides on the short term we have to think now how to approach this uh this in the near future attract or stay and watch yeah yeah let me add that in usual times people don't care about who is the issue of the money if it's a central bank or if it's a commercial bank that doesn't matter for them and the only thing that really counts is Comfort if you have to pay and sometimes you can't avoid it then it's necessary that it's as easy as possible and the ECB knows that so they have said the digital Euro must be a very comfortable and easy way to pay it must be able it has to be usable in daily life so in e-commerce in person to person payments and also in the point of sale at the supermarket they have also made clear they they will include governmental payments so everybody has to get in contact with the digital Euro at least most of us and it had also said that it will be a legal tender so everyone has to accept it you have a 100% Network in the Euro area this is something we do not have at the moment even V and the others are not able to Del deliver that and it's like Christian said it's free of charge so to sum up you have a means of payment that is very comfortable that is for free that is usable online and offline and everybody has to accept it I think that sounds rather attractive I'm not so sure that the ECB has to convince people with given that framework of course we have some risks that come along with that and Christian's absolutely right from a financial institutions perspective if you only have costs you don't have the benefits it's only a new compe you have to deal with but from a central bank perspective and probably at some time from a users perspective it could make sense okay um Dr sham when when um when do you think I mean again uh having also the non European perspective um when do you think the deployment of cbdcs can be realized in other parts of the world I mean southeast Asia or the Middle East and also sort of considering the compatibility of blockchain with Sharia principles I understand that you are sort of uh also founding member of sharia compliant sort of blockchain what what do you see sort of uh there thank you um that that's very interesting the uh the the endorsement of the web 3 and blockchain 20 million out of the 1.9 billion Muslim population has adopted which represent 1.

05% and the fastest growth rate actually the reason is the are the Sharia principal promote four thing security transparency anti manopoly and facilitations which is exactly how blockchain works so what does it mean the means the we need this transition period people to be confort central banks to be conforted it is not just Central Bank and cbdc is cbdc and the use case and the it's the utility case for example Malaysia government is not just talking about cross bers crossborder settlement we do have subsidiary program for the petrol subsidy for the lower income Group which represent 70 to 80% of total Malaysian population by deploying the uh cbdc and using the concept of identity and their government can save 11 billion a year and the cbdc I like to let let everybody participate a bit here can people raise your hand if anybody think cbdc can be implemented anybody okay we see little bit people Little People raising the hand have you ever seen the cbdc here this is cbdc you can hold it it has init value every country can produce command cbdc this is 4.25 G of weight and the this is game changer I can share with you after the uh the the this the shows it is available in the boot so coming back to that this changes the phenomenal changes will take place sooner than we think and because this will be the solution for the descending the AIDS to the needed one in the time of the crisis or the are things like the N nature disasters or things like subsidy program to save the government wasted budgets and the distributions to the needed one eliminating the third party but having said that the transition period will not short of challenge the uh the understanding one of the key Point gentlemen the uh DLT is the taboo for centralized Authority you need to come out with a whether we came out with as our part uh the uh DFS basically encrypt those scared datas in the dldt for the private for the central bank and that's if that would be the game changes okay thank you um moving now sort of to the second part uh of of our uh panel debate sort of stable coins I mean again worthwhile keeping in mind we have sort of different kinds of stable coins um we have uh Fiat collateralized stable coins which are probably the most well-known one um that are um collateralized or backed uh by uh Fiat currencies I mean uh the uh USD usdt or the usdc the sort of tether or Circle sort of stable coins are probably the most well-known one they're also sort of algorithmic stable coins um um where it's it sort of controlled the apply through an algorithm or you have sort of crypto collateralized stable coins such as D um where um the uh stable coin is backed by crypto asset but uh but has to be sort of over collateralized um sort of looking again at the comparison sort of stable coins versus CBDs do you see sort of stable coins as a as a competitor to uh cbdcs or uh do you have you the feeling that sort of uh central banks will s try to sort of limit the use case almost of of stable coins and and where do you see really sort of the biggest use case of uh stable coins starting perhaps uh with uh David so um I think that we will have stable coins and we will have cbdcs and they will interact with each other um for two reasons one reason there are many stable coins that are just used um internally in Commercial Banking um for settlement um maybe with third parties um and they won't necessarily be available to everybody publicly so bank issue stable coins is a thing and it'll be a thing that's going to stay for a long time so there those kinds of stable coins will exist and the second reason is that not all jurisdictions are in a position where they're able to issue a cbdc for political reasons for economic reasons for uh whatever other reason they're just not at that point in time but they will want the benefits um that you get from uh digital cash so I foresee at least for the the the near future probably the midterm future that we're going to have stable coins and cbdcs working together for that reason um eventually we're going to go more and more to the cbdc model but there will always be these uh stable coins that you used in private organizations commercial Banks um that will that will remain okay Jose Lis um yeah in Spain we've had um in over the last years uh new new use cases of St stable coins uh authorized by the bank of ESP in the Spanish sandbox which is very good news uh particularly in the you know um last couple of years with a bit of bad press on certain unb and regulated stable coins so the the the scenario of stable coins in my mind is is is going to or is currently struggling a bit in in in Europe because of the MAA regulation coming out in the sense that it has set up very strict rules that are welcomed by the industry but at the same time May uh hamper certain business models because you know uh depending on the design they may fall into the category of imoney tokens in which case only a credit institution or a um or a Emy can issue them they require the liquidity Reserves at a ratio one to one deposited in uh financial institutions to back any Redemption request uh with free of commission the Restriction it's welcome I guess of uh non-european uh denominated stable targeting U European member Union but in any case uh it seems and some commentators say that it's scattered more for the incumbents and perhaps is benefiting more the the the new business or lines of business of existing Banks and great institutions rather enhancing fintechs and new projects of stable coins and to this other doubts under mikar that could affect stable coins are the ban on or proh Pro prohibition on on charging interest which uh is is is an issue to consider and also M checks and the so-called travel rule or whether or not you have to have a check on each holder of the stable coin or only on the beneficiary on Redemption on the output of the stable coin so these are all legal issues still yet to be solved under Mard and so how they're going to impact the stable coins well this is a let's say additional headache for them after all they've suffered lately question in some of the Articles or actually many articles and from the digital EUR it was stated that the one of the reasons why we need a digital euro is because of the rise of cryptocurrency and stable coins in my opinion this is not a valid valid reason yeah uh digital Euro it tends to be a paneuropean and while the majority of the of the stable Co exercises or private ones and focusing on certain issue yesterday I met a colleague from Belgium I do not see if he's here he mentioned um he has an exercise regarding the Euro kind of stable coin for storing the value of the car batteries financed by the European Union maybe he can give you more examples on this so I think this will be the the the future for the stable cons focusing on some gaps which the banks or the let's say the the financial institution uh did not cover intentionally or not not intentionally and just to back up what David said this will collaboration interoperability and not a fight between the stable coin cryptos and the digital currency okay s yeah I think uh in future we will see both we will have an interaction of cbdcs on the one hand from the Central Bank will'll also have stable Cs and they should be interop operable because otherwise it wouldn't make sense um when we um in the set bank had a look at the future competitor of digital Euro um um then we said okay we have to get better than the digital Euro will be from the central bank and that's why we launched a project to bring Commercial Bank money on a DLT so it's not a stable coin in the common sense but it is um really Commercial Bank money Fiat money on the DLT this is something new but to be honest it is only the technical background that changes the Fiat money and the commercial bank money is that what is usually used in in daily life so the main problem for this project Curr ly is not the technological basis the main problem is that you need enough financial institutions to take part because every form of money depends in a large part on the network effects and if you do not have enough enough financial institutions to take part then it won't have a lasting um impact I think that's one thing you have seen in the last years with several bit uh cryptocurrencies and stable coins as well and and do you think that sort of challenge can be sort of uh managed or do you think uh you know um Banks or other issuers will manage to sort of I I think that most financial institutions or most economic actors uh economic Partners will act earlier or later because the pressure is increasing and increasing we have the central bank we have also uh the big tchs that come up with own Solutions and I hope it's more I hope it's not uh it's not really on that I'm fully convinced but I hope that most important uh financial institution in Europe will take part because they see there is no alternative to making their own money better that will help that the business models financial institutions have in Europe meaning they have the deposits on their own balance sheam and then yeah Finance Landing activity to continue this business model you need a better Commercial Bank money and that's the way we see it can become the future yes okay um Dr sham coming back again a bit to the topic sort of stable coins CBD c um do you think there is sort of also the possibility of central banks sort of adopting stable coins or at least sort of accepting them and sort of sort of to have there any form of recognition of stable coins by central banks um I would put it in different uh perspective cbdc or the FIA currencies are issued by individ individual Nations and Country government as a send currency the stable coins is like I'm using usdt by the t uh the uh that is by the individual entity and the uh to to the government to say hey I I replace private entity issue form of the currency or the in the dldt as my currency I think there's far away than the uh realistically government to deploy the uh cbdc itself okay um David coming back to you again um sort of again I think we touched upon the inability and I guess um the same applies as sort of to different cbdcs project I mean it could sort of the network you're mentioning or the issue of interoperability could also be addressed by the industry is that right or yeah that's right I mean so so the reason that we started the udm was to provide interoperability between central bank digital currencies and stable coins that was really the the focus for us what we saw so we we started three and a bit years ago and what we saw is that there were silos of um Central Bank digital currencies getting started so we had at that point in time obviously we had the euan um we had the eona um we had the Sand Dollar um you know these were the kind of you know things that were really kind of getting started this was very much before the digital Euro kind of you know gained momentum and these weren't being designed with interoperability uh in in in in in their base right so they were very much I'm designing a central bank digital currency because I have this particular problem and the problem was different in different places I think this was mentioned before right so in in China it's very much about taxes in in uh in in the Bahamas is very much about cash management how we get cash out to everywhere um so there was a need for this there was a need for interruptibility and at that point in time nobody was speaking about this need and nobody was even thinking about the interruptibility between stable coins and Central Bank currencies it was just not on the table and that's the reason that we started this and that's the reason that we think that these kinds of networks are so powerful and we're also involved in some interesting groups who are providing some interoperability between interoperability networks as well which actually seems very meta but it's actually really important because there will be interoperability at different levels so you'll have interoperability cbdc level you have inter stable coin level maybe even at crypto level and you need to be able those things need to mesh together right so everybody needs to be speaking the same language okay we are slowly coming uh to an end of our discussion so perhaps sort of as a wrap-up question we always like to look into the future uh and question to sort of all of our panelists in 30 seconds if you like um in in sort of five to 10 years time um do you think there still a use case sort of for stable coins or could they be replaced by cbdcs well I would say the coexistent of the stable coin is there like I just share the stable coin back by go this will be the best the the I'm sure any every government can be aligned with their respective cbdc as said because it is not the promisory notes of individual government is have interested value so I agree in certain way the the future stable coin will still exist and play the role but the C cbdc overrules so I would see a peaceful coexistence between different forms of money in the next 5 to 10 years we will have in Europe at least a cbdc based on traditional Payment Systems we will have a wholesale cbdc on DT we will also have stable coins uh for the crypto market for example and we will also see cryptocurrencies maybe as part of a digital gold market things like that so I don't think that and there will be a cbmt commercial bank money token of course um I hope so in the next two to three years already so this are the main parts I think we will see in the future when we look at the yeah parts of money and forms of money we will have in Europe well if I would know what will happen in 5 10 years probably I will be millionaire and having this meeting from Hawaii from somewhere yeah just to sum it up like we said before I think in coexistence I think that every stable coins and cdbc will have different use cases will address different risk interest and different uh different reasons and so on and if I would be a company unfortunately I not not I'm working in a bank I would really focus on building out some kind of platforms layer to make this all the stuff interoperable like David said crypto layer stable coin and CD BTC and you have to have somehow integrated that we finally have a well functioning efficient uh ecosystem okay J I believe in Europe we'll we'll continue to have U stable coins uh as a day-to-day program all um on chain uh payment meth uh system which uh will complement the Euro digit digital especially given the the characteristics and the the the the Lost opportunities of the Euro digital that we're seeing I think that for users um they for this to really work they don't need to understand that they're using a cbdc or a stable coin and I think that's kind of where it's going to go is that actually just you will just use your wallet and you'll have a multi- wallet and that will basically do the payment and your car will have a different type of wallet and maybe use a different type of payment system and all of these things will merge based on standards and I kind of think that that's kind of where it's probably going to go in 5 10 years time we're nowhere near that now but hopefully in the future we will be okay thank you very much to all of my panelist I think a round of applause is welld deserved thank you very much and yeah thank you very much by thank you wonderful stuff mimus gracias Amigos absolutely great