LFGrow | The Future of On-chain Creation

[Music] [Applause] [Music] and with that we are ready for our next panel so uh collaboration is a very recurring theme here for today and uh what i'm going to talk about next is just what the future of creating new things on chain looks like whether it's music or artwork or anything else in between there's a lot of room here and there's a lot of tooling as well as context that we can kind of bring in from how we use tools existing uh in the existing web 2 world and to kind of uh talk about all these things i want to welcome carmen.wave.olive allen and moderating this chat we cooperate early so i'll welcome all them here on stage and i'll let them turn their videos on and say hi thank you kartik it's good to be here man how you feeling tonight it's uh it's great to have all of you here so all right i'll let you take over and uh i'll get out of the way awesome hey guys what's up my name is cooper and i'm joined by an awesome panel here today we got some amazing creators on board so i want to spend this session really helping you understand what does a creator go through when they're tokenizing work on chain we have visual artists here we have musicians we have curators on the panel and so in this discussion i want to really talk about the creator economy and specifically the tools that allow people to tokenize their creative work so we'll start out with a quick round of intros carmel kick it over to you first and let's go ahead and go around the horn and tell everyone what you're working on sure how's it going all i'm karma i'm a musician music producer and world builder i'm currently exploring different experiments within web3 so that being song camp that being wave world which is a social garden and really exploring how the ownership economy is going to impact creators and how value flow is going to flow throughout that so excited to be here and get this panel started good to have you here kate how are we feeling today hey i'm feeling good what's up everyone my name is kate i make music as dot i'm pretty new to the web3 space uh currently just working on some drops with catalog and sound but really excited to see what other tools begin to emerge uh for music particularly around uh reaching new audiences so yeah i love that and last but certainly not least all of how we filmed this morning hi i'm great um so i've been an artist and created in web 3 since like 2018 since the nfc's emerged um i don't know i've been through a lot throughout the years and currently i'm working on my solo show that opens in new york on april 30th yeah exciting nice why don't you tell us more about that i feel like this is a really good place to start where you can kind of help people understand what does the life of a creator on web3 look like and how are you going to be able to bring that to the masses um i guess a lot of the creator is the same i mean throughout time so you just you know like creating work hoping you know it makes sense you know every single day that's what it is i mean web3 difference is that um time goes much faster right a lot more going on there a lot more noise which is good and bad at the same time um yeah i mean as i'm preparing for the show i'm i'm taking a bit of time off to focus i i don't check social media as much yeah web 3 can be very very distracting because there's oh so many people from all over the world versus traditional art world when you're just like in your scene in your city like new york l.a whatever right and that's about it but this is like a global economy it's really economy at scale which is fascinating and challenging at the same time yeah i want to start i want to start there because i feel like you being around since 2018 you've really seen the whole wave of on-chain creation platforms so things like foundation zora super open c you know i could name five or six other ones probably i would love for you to give a quick overview of when you're thinking about tokenizing your creative work what does that process look like for you and how does that change from when you first started to maybe some of the options you have on the table today well i've been a founder myself i was building an early marketplace in early 2018 with mixed degree of success so i understand the whole process i minted my first drop in early 2019 on openc and it's been a very challenging process like it has changed a lot since um with the emergence of new platforms that made it easy that means work for creators and etc i i feel like now it's so like i don't know you don't even need to explain how to meet your work it's so easy like i see a lot of my friends be like not even asking before they be like oh my god how are you even doing that it's so complicated so challenging like how do i install metamask how'd that go on openc but now process simplified so much and um it's a delight to see uh i mean there are tons of platforms there and there's a new platform like emerging every single day i feel like but honestly as a creator um having so much choices i i resort to having my own contract and maintain my own work because i don't know i don't think platforms can do as much for me at this point than before i feel like in the early days there were four like main platforms makers place nifty gateway what else super rare and maybe open c but nobody was like using much for minting uh and yeah everybody knew what's going on what drop is happening and so where to get stuff but now if yeah it's just like if you don't see it on twitter like you don't know what's happening if you miss an email there's so many platforms there's so many creators that what became a challenge even though all the platforms play to be created curated at some points point to some degree right like it's like you always need to plug in 24 7 like not to miss your favorite artist your favorite musician or your the drop that you want to get and i know a lot of people are on only 24 7 and that's a full-time job for sure i mean as you probably know yourself yeah absolutely yeah i would say um you highlighted something really important there which is custom smart contracts so i want to come back to that in a second because i think that's a really fascinating conversation topic okay first maybe turning this over to you as a musician who's been tokenizing their creative work can you talk about the process with uploading to catalog and sound and maybe what that experience looks like yeah um i have been kind of shocked actually by how simple it's been um you know coming from 10 years of experience in in like web 2 music industry and dealing with heaps and heaps of paperwork not getting paid um you know having to hire an attorney for you know some of the most simple of tasks to then be able to upload music and write a quick description get it out there and then you know immediately receive value if someone chooses to collect that it's it's just a whole different world so that's been really really fascinating to experience um yeah it's it's been surprisingly easy i'm keen to see uh you know what um sort of what like further tools emerge for uh creators to be able to not only collaborate with fellow artists but also build in structure for artists to um make sure that their teams are also getting paid um one of the benefits that i see of this greater efficiency is having artists who are maybe at a earlier stage in their career be able to hire managers or hire agents hire people to assist them at an earlier point so finding ways for them to also be able to collaborate with their teams i think is going to be important in the future yeah i'll give a quick shout out here to a project called xerox splits i know that this was born out of a youth global hackathon but they're doing really great work right now on routing on chain payments would highly check it out for those who haven't heard of it and i guess kicking the server to you karma i think you have a really good lens on this because a lot of the work you do is with collaborators you know it's putting people in a room together finding experiments to bring this together what does that experience look like for you and what are some of the platforms that you guys are looking to when you're choosing to make your creative work yeah of course so i would say yeah the marketplaces like catalog like sound that are more curated there's always like something like manifold if you want to go through your own contract as far as collective creation which we do a lot in song camp and actually right now i'm part of camp three which is called camp chaos which is an experiment where 80 people 50 musicians and the rest are operators economics is basically going to release as one headless artist and we're actually really using xerox splits that was one of the biggest things we needed in our camps to orchestrate this whole thing some of the xerox splits devs are in it so i would say for collective creation i think the splits and selection did a beautiful drop on sound have really changed the game it was something that was so needed for musicians um and as kate said right like the traditional way royalties work it can be so backlogged it can be hard there's a lot of administration so i think using smart contracts to really um be able to track all of this and have it be transparent is such a game changer and on the other side of things it's like i've made music since i was three and to have people value like a wave file right and pay for that where i've only ever made money from other like avenues of music is really a shift and i noticed it even myself as a musician and collector because for me it's blurring the lines right i think the lines between what is a musician what is the collector what is a fan is kind of getting blurred and we're gonna allow for this new bottom um creator economy to emerge so i would say that's the that's where i'm currently at love that yeah i definitely give a big co-sign for song camp and chaos it's a fantastic community of producers and for those of you who aren't aware there's a weekly call every monday at one pst i'd highly recommend checking it out um olive i know that karma just mentioned manifold which i think most people in the critter economy recognize is sort of a leading tool kit if you want to be more independent with your sovereignty around minting i know you mentioned you have your own custom smart contract now can you talk about what that process looked like for you you know maybe first and foremost manifold made it like back in the day when they didn't have a platform um i was a part of chris's auction back in july um oh my god it's almost a year ago jesus time flies um and they were making smart contracts for everybody who was uh dropping their artworks and so it stayed um yeah and it turned out to be the most convenient way for me in terms of tracking provenance which is important and yeah collectors like tend to prefer it so like they know it's my smart contract that's the provenance it's real you know and right especially for one-on-ones it really does make sense for larger drops i i don't think it does you know it's something else i'm planning on like making a game it's like a larger project um this year like next year um release and yeah definitely we're writing different contracts for that but for one-on-ones like providence of artwork uh uh manifold contract is great and i think every artist should look into that because the platform's like no i i'm gonna i was like early artist on nifty gateway and like go find my work like it doesn't on the back end it doesn't really show that it's my work necessarily or anybody's work because it was minded from one wallet so everybody is meeting from one wallet then it's virtually not distinguishable within like one quality right so it's not the best provenance going forward like now you know need to get my but tomorrow it might cease to exist and like you wouldn't really find it like 10 years 20 years from now it's virtually impossible to prove that it was your artwork in fact meant it's that time so that was a big big flaw i think they are realizing right now yeah and smart contracts yeah i think it's really a testament to the times you know like the fact that nifty gateway was able to realize that they needed to offer self-sovereignty with smart contracts um it just wasn't something i think anyone thought about at the time but i think it's a good you know tell-tale side of where we're going sorry karma i know you want to add something no no worries i just wanted to add on that for creators um i think it really is important that if you are going to go with a platform some platforms will actually create your own smart contract so that exactly what you're mentioning right that your smart contract is going to exist if the platform fails right because we know how crypto goes you can see 2017 music platforms so i think sound is minting their own smart contracts and i do think it will be a trend towards sovereignty on the smart contract because that's really the game changer the fact that it's not at the platform level it's at the protocol level though yeah really important point yeah i want to stick on this point for one second because i think for the hackers that are listening this is really a fascinating design topic when it comes to creating your own custom smart contract when it comes to mincing from your own custom smart contract are there any issues you guys have experienced with sort of that ease of uploading relative to some of the more convenient flows that we talked about with the platforms or what are some of the current you know maybe blockers or design areas that exist within the smart custom smart contract space i don't know if manifold has a front end i'm not so sure about it i'm doing everything through a back end like through either scan but if you think about it's not very convenient if you don't know what to do so it's like not for everyone i don't know if they have like a front like uh user-facing platform right now i have no idea they might yeah i would definitely echo that sentiment i mean i work with a lot of creators on building out their web through products and i think that the biggest issue i see right now with custom smart contracts is conceptually it makes a ton of sense i think people want to have self-sovereignty and be minting tokens from their own source but i think the tooling to be able to do easily as a non-technical creator is very difficult you know if you're able to navigate etherscan if you're able to go into terminal i think that it's fantastic but one thing that i would really call out to the developers listening to this is that the tools around creating custom smart contracts and being able to easily mint from those contracts i think that there's a lot of designer there that's anything from expanding the scope beyond one of ones to doing additions and generative art two does very simple tools where i can go in and just plug and play you know i don't have to be an ether scanner terminal to deploy this so you know i guess um kate maybe turning this over to you as a question you know someone who's kind of newer to the web3 space what is the conversation around sovereignty looked like for you has it been important is it something that you've learned about over time or when did this really come into your orbit as being you know discussion topic to even have in mind um yeah it's definitely important it's something that i know i've been talking with a lot of other artists about particularly around like how much power are we giving to certain platforms versus having you know full control over how we want to mint and then release our work um so i don't really have like a i guess a clear answer or definitive thoughts on this yet but um you know i think it it is something you know that is important to consider and and as amazing as some of the tools are and some of the platforms are that currently exist i think it's going to be more and more important also for people to just have full autonomy or full control over their own contracts not be reliant on other platforms to meant their work or distribute their work um and figure out ways of doing that and like going forward so yeah nice and then one topic i want to get into here you know the metadata of nfts is something that i think is a little bit more low-key from the average collector i don't think we talked about it very much but i'm really curious to hear maybe i'll start with this on your end um how do you think about metadata relative to your nfts that you're creating and where does it kind of slot into the the conversation right right right i've been thinking a lot about it i know there are two ways to save the amount of data right now i mean um obviously um three ways actually it's not true um ipfs like the old-fashioned way but most reliable like um air beef um i don't they say it's better i don't know it's hard for me to tell if it's better or not but like you have to get tokens but in the u.s you cannot buy tokens so it's a bit of a drag to be honest um i don't know it's bad or not but i don't have tokens so i have to like stick to ipfs and a third way is actually um embed art on chain itself but like the size of the file should be very very small but if you maintain like fine artwork it's mpx4 and it's like a large large file it's kind of borderline impossible the gas piece will be astronomical if you do that um i know some projects some of the projects pfp projects do that very successfully but the size um of the files are very very small and the pfp's allow that it's like a small like avatar thing maybe pixelated it's a small file so it's possible so about the for my artwork not really at this point so i'd be able to make sense away unfortunately unfortunately yeah and i guess karma kicking this over to you have there been conversations around this with relation to music nfts and sort of the differentiating metadata standards that might be used relative to crypto art yeah i mean i think in general music and i know people are working on this from the catalog and mint songs team suffers from a lack of metadata standards um from a curation perspective and a discovery perspective and i mean yeah what all the places that were mentioned is basically where music is being uploaded i do think that uploading midi on chain is a pretty interesting thing i know beats foundry is doing that i like that concept um but like was said like if you want to upload a wav file it's going to be so expensive to mint on chains so right now primarily it's happening on ipfs and i know glass.

xyz i'm into the video on there they're working on r weave so i do think for like the builders out there um in the catalog disk score there's a music nfts like metadata standards and i think the work around that is going to be super important just so we have composibility between platforms and between protocols so i think that's really where the biggest bottleneck is in music um as far as metadata standards yeah i think this is a great transition because we've been talking in the first part of this panel about sort of the technical layers of creation so some smart contracts metadata i think the social aspect is something that's really important and unique relative to sort of the creator economy that's being developed now so i guess stock kicking this over to you how do you think about minting your music on platforms like catalog or sound versus you know a typical distribution system where you just put it through a distributor and it's on all platforms do you see any bottlenecks with that or how do you sort of view having different platforms um you know host different content that are kind of existing in silos right now yeah um i think the biggest difference for me right now like putting something on catalog for instance versus um like spotify uh is catalog or sound is a very very small very niche community still at this point so you're reaching um a small like fewer number of people but very potentially like high quality quote unquote fans like people who genuinely want to engage with you on all these different levels um so i think just as far as like volume of users go like that's that's a very big difference um it's it's something that's highly highly curated um versus like a spotify or apple music there's just this massive volume of music coming through and while while there are ways that we are sort of curating it while you know there's play listing there's all these different options it's so much more saturated so i'm i'm eager to see kind of what happens as these platforms continue to grow and expand and get more users not just on the collector side of things but get more and more musicians involved or creators involved yeah i forgot where i was going with that so i lost my train of thought but that's been the biggest difference is just i think number of people who are actively engaged um yeah yeah i love that and i really echo sort of the quality of the average contributor right now and the people that are collecting these works but i think you know one of the things that we take for granted for things like spotify and apple music because you can search any song in the world it's going to show up you know irregardless of the streaming service that you use it's typically there and so i guess karma kicking this over to you from a collector's standpoint how do you think about music discovery right now in the lens of web 3 and what are some of the challenges you see around you know not being able to find music right being kind of too buried because it's only in one place do you see any areas of improvement there yeah yeah i think that's where most of the building has to be done as far as like curation discovery and social and really taking a bottom-up approach to it right like what type of curation wasn't possible before that now is possible i know you made a great tweet actually around gatekeepers versus curation right and it's a really tough problem to solve and we see it across the sentiment of musicians being like i want to be on catalog and sound but i can't get on and i think it's really important to keep in mind that there's a reason that it's being curated the way it is right because if we just leave it open there's going to be so much supply that the demand is not going to be there to keep up with it plus a quality control issue right so i do think the approach and these platforms already going towards that route is slowly like giving it to the artist and then the community and then hopefully like actually just creating a new type of incentive system and what i would like to see is curation at like a protocol layer that works across the platforms so it kind of just takes a little bit of that curation power away from them but like right now to be honest it's all happening off social and it's mostly twitter right like let's be honest it's still like most of discovery and curation is happening as a result of attention harvesting algorithms right and it wasn't like made with bad intentions originally but i think they have emerged to be these new information ecologies that they optimize for time spent on site but not time well spent right so for me personally as a creator like i'm a lot more into having a small amount of listeners that are like actively listening to engaging with it and having this huge huge reach but it's not an or thing right i think it's a it's an and thing right now web 2 is acting as this reach and web 3 is acting as this depth the question is is how do we start solving the problem of reach and bringing it into a more web 3 native way so that's like where my heads at around things and maybe even rewarding people who are curating i think curators themselves and it's like collectors are almost curators i think that's going to be a really large emerging trend yeah and i think that's a good area just to kind of give a shout out to the sponsor of this panel you know lens protocol i think is a really awesome solution for this you know i'm hopeful that there can be a world where instead of us doing all of our distribution and social experience on web 2 platform like twitter there can be something that's a little bit more on chain native like lens and so i guess all of turning this into a question for you how do you get in contact with your collectors today you know like when you have this event coming out on april 30th is there a way for you to contact you know holders of your nfts or what are some things that you would like to see in that regards just being able to have a more direct line of communication with them um honestly yeah that's a challenge that's um reaching out to collectors like that's real challenge like you're relying on twitter algorithm regularly and maybe instagram like okay a bit better but honestly it's been a headache i don't have a good answer just reaching out one by one and i've been doing it for a very very long time like a lot of my collectors i don't even know like you know like for like 2018 or 19 i don't know where they are literally i don't even know why football is that active like if they're on twitter like yeah maybe i should have been cataloging it better fair maybe i don't know it's interesting point like i'm thinking i'm actually thinking about it right now it's like very hard to reach those people and it's very hard to reach anyone and the crypto space was a lot of noise if you guys have ideas solutions please do like do share yeah i mean i think this is um it's really interesting because in web 2 we have email lists right and if someone buys your product or if they subscribe somewhere you can send them an email and say check this out we don't really have that on chain right now you know again just to give a shout out to lens protocol i think that there's some promising signal in that direction you know in particular being able to query someone's on-chain activity you know did i buy something on catalog did i buy something on sound did i buy something on foundation nifty gateway open see whatever it is and starting to build more of a social graph you know i'm excited for this next chapter of web3 social because i think it's really going to power you know web 3 native artists i think to all of this point very early in this conversation right now if you're a creator in web 3 you need to be full time on twitter for the most part i mean obviously i think it's really important to take breaks and not be on there but i think we see time and time again that a lot of the success web decoders have or how tied in they are on a day to day on twitter and so i guess um thought i'm going to turn this one over to you because you've been you know really crushing in that regard recently did you ramp up you know your social activity specifically on a platform like twitter with relation to your activity in the music nft community or what did that process look like yeah i did make a conscious um effort to to start ramping that up um and it's definitely been i won't say like a point of strain or stress it's it's work that i'm happy to do like i love i love creating music and so anything i can do to share that with other people in whatever form that may be is wonderful um but i i think you know going forward i would really love to see ways for creators to reach collectors and also reach new audiences that really prioritizes like the medium that they're already working in versus their ability to you know be funny on twitter or um you know for me also i work in audio mostly and um a a platform like instagram is really prioritizing images it's visual and so it's like the success or failure of a post about your project is not even based on the work itself it's based on this other aspect of like you know a visual representation of the music and and so that's been i think really challenging for for musicians specifically we don't have a lot of platforms you know maybe audience is something that that prioritizes the sharing and discovery of just the audio itself um or you know the web 2 version of that could be like soundcloud where there was also that social aspect um but i i would love to see like more and more tools um that integrate like the social aspect of music sharing and community yeah let's stick on this for a second because i think a lot of the process for creating on-chain work does have to do with the social layer of it as well i mean i think that we see now that twitter spaces play such an important role in getting the distribution out there you know doing these things like having private sales on a platform like foundation you know karma i want to kick this over to you because i think you're most um you know active in this space what does it look like for you to be able to relay what you're working on to the community built in web 3. can you talk a little bit about sort of the relation twitter and discord have and some places people should be keeping in mind to help you know talk about distributing their creative work yeah 100 so i think primarily it's happening and it also depends on it like i'm a more web3 native creator and i'm cool with that like i'm still doing things in web too but it's very much so like i'm i love web3 and for me and people asking this a lot it was very organically i feel like i was drawn to the way things were happening because of its eclectic nature i felt like finally in my life i could take all my different disciplines and kind of put them into one but it really is happening on twitter and discord and like almost funneling into discord from twitter the way i see it i think twitter spaces were a huge game changer and i do like that conversations are happening right that it's not this news feed based thing people can hear each other's voices but i think and this is what the builders should be thinking about it's the design principles and the design model and the ethics around how these networks are built and they're incentivized to just keep you scrolling right they're incentivized to show more sensational content so i think really building and i love that idea of including audio including the medium that we're already creating in baked into the social layer and i know sound like definitely touched on this and i think it's a big reason for their success um like i've met people because we've been on the same sound pyramid and then we are at an event and like now we're friends right so i think that social layer and also for the builders the reason that music didn't have its pfp moment was partially because there was nowhere to display them right so i think having ability to display these things and use these things and interact with them in the social layer is going to be game changers so yeah great point yeah i want to shift this conversation over to the consumption side of things because i think it's really important we talked about minting nfts with custom smart contracts we talked about distribution on different platforms the social experience around marketing but how about after you collect an nft you know where are you showing that off where are you displaying it how are you experiencing that there's two really awesome topics here both with crypto art and music i guess first and foremost all of with the crypto art side of things when it comes to people displaying the work that they've collected from you what are some of the platforms and solutions you recommend and maybe where there's still some you know open problems that people can be looking into um right like i'm me as a collector myself to be honest um i don't display my energies as much honestly and unfortunately um i just put them in different wallets and just i'll look through on open sea like what i have the inventory i'm like okay i'm checking out okay so still here good i have like wallet for fine art whatever art for something to flip this time like a project whatever i got like i'm ashamed of getting that meeting that shit's like i don't want people to see my lens you know i organize in different wallets and like yeah i check on them sometimes you know like i'm like attached to ledger some hot wallets you know like okay still here which is like not the best way not gonna lie so i wish there was like a better tool more secure tool to organize it somehow but it is what it is right now i don't explain my lands or whatever pfps i just i have them i order them um in terms of my artwork um well different like collectors played very differently um i have works that i sold both sprint like high quality print attached was the animated nfc that's the way uh collectors love that um or there's some like high quality frames right now like logo frames they have square frames um like pre-order only uh some people have that um i'm gonna have them in my show so people can just like buy the artwork take it with the frame take it home so i don't worry about the display like it's it's yours it's all included um i feel like that's that's an easy way yeah i mean some people just put it on tv you know like you know right and they have it right there or people have put them on their phones like you know like that the display i i've seen that uh oh and like someone else like you can customize um apps on uh iphone some people like did that i know that i put some of my bears some of my work for that i mean that that's a wrong way to have it with ui goods all times but yeah i mean i think most of the people just like have them you know in their wallets and like look at their art sometimes like you know like hey my pokemon cards like all with me like oh my nft is all with me still okay nobody sell them my apes good do it good yeah great i mean there are tools like spatial like whatever you can have a metaverse exhibition but i feel like it was a trance back a year ago people did like i was like a number of online exhibitions collectors would just like build a building a museum what not a lot of people building museums but crypto art and they put like your artwork on their central land land and yeah yeah yeah i think there's a still a lot to be done in this regard i'll give a quick shout out to two that come to mind for me um gallery.so and on cyber i think are both fantastic platforms to display all right but what i'm hearing from you and i think this is a really interesting conversation topic is that people have very different assets in their wallet you know they have nfts that they're proud to own nfts that they're just using to flip nfcs that they're not proud to own right now they all just exist in one spot now on openc i can go and i can hide certain assets but it's very difficult for me to categorize though by different mindset and so i think you bring up a really good point and something that i see being you know a trend moving forward here is going to be let's call it vertical specific wallets so right now if i have a wallet i have all of my nfts in one spot but specifically for someone like myself that's collecting a lot of music nfts it doesn't make as much sense for a music nfts to exist directly next to my pfps and so i think a big area that we're going to see moving forward here is what do a music-specific wallet look like and maybe turning this into a question to you um kate when you're selling your music entities to people how are they experiencing those or what do you think they're experiencing them and when people want to listen to your music in web 3 you know what are some of the ways that you think we can do a better job of allowing that to happen natively on chain yeah i at this point i'm i thinking about this um from my perspective also as a collector there's not really i think a great way to share or display in some way like our collections like when i think about collecting vinyl for example it's something that i love doing um and as a dj too when i get the opportunity to like spin vinyl that's like a really fun opportunity to you know share these pieces of work that i've gone out to to find to like dig from the back of whatever bin at a record store and there's like a story behind each one and so that that social process also of like you know going out somewhere gathering with people and sharing this collection is really important to me and really special and valuable and i would love to see um sort of a web 3 version of that i don't know at this point what that could look like but i just know that so much of like music collecting um when you are like gathering i guess vinyl i keep bringing it back to that um so much of that is is very social and it's not as meaningful unless there's other people involved where you can share that with others so i think figuring out a way to to make that more of an experience for collectors is going to be important going forward absolutely i'll give give a shout out to future tape here i think this is a project that's working in the direction of that but i think there is still a ton of design work whether it's displaying it as a playlist whether it's having it as a vinyl collection you know i think one of the most exciting things about music nft is there will be a social layer associated with collecting and to your point maybe there's a day where if i want to dj my music nfts i can only play it if i own the music nft you know and there's some cool edge cases that emerge there and so i guess karma i want to transition this to you because i know that song camp talks a lot about this now have you guys been talking about you know music consumption display the social experience around it and you know again just ask the question any blockers that you're seeing right now yeah no i think this is honestly something i think about a lot because i have all these music nfts and like what do i do with them currently what we do is we play them on bpmbot which is a discord bot we built to play catalog records and uh like we recently like the last month or so added zora and sound and that was interesting because honestly that showed me the power of just this cross-community collaboration because i was just in the sound discord i'm like i want to play my sound nfts and then another dev is like i'm down to help build it so i'm like oh let's just put this in bpm we went into the wave world and we built it over a weekend so to me like that's the first step right like at least having somewhere to play it i mean right now i don't play them in my car unless i play them through discord which is literally what i'm doing i'm playing them through discord not the best but i think also thinking about like what is the offline version right like i was on the plane how am i listening to my music nfts um i have future tape but there's no way of like downloading them offline and it really is about i collect vinyl as well and it's like what is that displaying of the vinyl look like in a postmorphic world right so like what can you create to display music and interact with music that wasn't previously conceivable um whether that be through smart contracts or some of the stuff lens is building but i think that's really where yeah that's where my head is at and as far as displaying them like i have a gallery that i did it but like i feel like there needs to be a more music native one right like i would like something with like spatial audio like you've ever been into gather town or like you can go buy it and interact with it um as well as like irl ones i know eve denver they have these motion sensor like for visual art so that to me is interesting as well right like how can you include the listener as part of the creation process because once you attach your identity or some type of emotional connection to it and you already get this by buying it from having skin in the game but that layer i think is what really also would be interesting to explore because i think that's what kicked pfp's off right like having that status and having that way of like identifying with it because of the blind mint so interested to see what people are building there yeah i'm hearing a very big need for more projects around the consumption layer of nfts and i guess really just to round this out um right now we've talked about minting your work we've talked about the platforms you get it on you know i want to i want to toss this one over to you and have this be kind of our last question for the session but when you're getting your work out there into the world and choosing to have people hear about it or discover it more what are some of the ways that you're doing that what are some of the you know areas that you're hoping to see some better improvements in all right that's my main point like how do i talk about my work how i tell people about it like i've always been like shy to self-promote myself maybe it's a cultural background i don't know what that is um i i don't know if i display my high value nfts i don't know i'm weird about that it's just such a weird thing um i never had a discord which perhaps is a great tool like to get organized i'm like not very organized with those things i'm not on twitter every day sometimes like i'm on twitter like for three days is it like my engagement drops low like nobody like sees me for a for quite a time um yeah but i'm active on instagram i i guess it's a very aggressive way right like what artists did back in the day they use i mean they still do like it's nothing change they use instagram and most of their collectors are on the ground literally watching stories and they know what's going on like that's our world is on on the instagram like everyone that's how people discover things still even in web 3 unfortunately like that like um mark zuckerberg's like own thing which is sad and twitter is like bad algo it's like i don't know maybe i feel like we're clicking you should kind of like move into like better tools of discovery tools better conversations and maybe for me personally as a creator i feel like i really need to work on like being more active doing spaces doing my own discord channel and like expand in that sense right like yeah i'm actually really trying to solve that that's that's been my problem for quite a time like how do i reach out to people like yeah like who do i know like stuff like that so like back how did i do that i think it's a combination you know i feel like there's definitely a pressure right now if you are a creator in web 3 to be hyper active on socials i don't think that that's a mindset that suits many people and for most the creators i know you know they don't want to have a discord they don't want to be in there every single day talking to their fans they want to make art so i guess uh mental health suffers if when you like on social like 24 7 and you don't have time to do the artwork you need to be in across the flow right like if it interrupts by the message whatever you kind of lose it that that's like it's web 2 as well right especially in music you see that after kobit hit and people stop doing live gigs the industry went towards looking at tick tock as a metric right and like all the labels look at tick tock so i think it's it's a general thing with these algorithms being built from an incentive model where the advertiser is the customer and the creators are influencers which to me is like you're literally just worth your influence your art is nothing right like if someone else has influence we'll plug you in there and to me like that's the world i don't want to live in right i want to live in a world exactly like you're mentioning that's incentivizing creators to have a balanced approach right where they can be like okay i share my work i talk to my collectors but it's not predicated on feeling like i constantly have to like be on there right because everyone feels that i feel like the platforms want to make you feel like that because you will buy more things and spend more time on there so i think it's really like from the ground up building with that design principle in mind yeah kate i've seen you tweet a lot about this do you have any closing thoughts on this topic yeah um i guess just to to ditto what many others have said like i don't think um our current incentivization to to just be constantly active constantly um socializing or connecting with people is is healthy for a lot of artists um and it deprioritizes the actual work that we're trying to do um so you know any anything that we can do to not only meaningfully connect with the people who are either collecting our work or experience experiencing our work or wanting to connect with us like that is wonderful i think like having fewer but more meaningful ways of engagement would be really beneficial um excuse me and then also just meaningful ways of reaching new people again that doesn't prioritize like your constant activity on on on a platform i think would be healthier i love that well guys we're right at time here and just to give the audience a quick recap of what we talked about i think there's a huge need for easier to use custom smart contracts that seems like a pain point that everyone was feeling here i heard a lot around the consumption layer of nft so how do i experience and display them and then lastly on the distribution side how do you get your work out to a web 3 native audience and have direct communication with collectors that have bought stuff from you on chain and so i guess cleaning it up here um let's go around and see where people can stay up with you post this conversation all of i'll kick it over to you first i know that you have a big irl event coming up in april 2 so tell us where we can stay up with you and learn more about it uh so it's april 30th um my solo show called um welcome to the metaverse it opens at postmaster gallery in new york it's tribeca i'll post more info and a flyer like um like two weeks before some people won't forget it like it's like it's a month and a half it's the way we advance over notice so yeah it's irrelevant um basically opening uh from six to eight is a bit of a party like everybody's welcome i'd love to see everyone it's gonna be fun goodbye to your friend artwork indicators matter words love it i can't wait for it karma what about you man where can people stand with your work sure so i'm karma wave on twitter and all other platforms you can find my music on sound i have a i'll give you a little alpha little catalog release coming out um and yeah it just happened with me on twitter my dms are pretty backlogged but like i'll get to them eventually like back to our conversation i think going with the seasons of life so right now i'm in a music creation process but you can find me karma wave everywhere love it okay what about you yeah i am uh dot music uh most platforms d-o-t m-v-s-i-c um putting out a bunch of new music this year and in all of the places so you can find me um in web 2 spots or on sound and catalog um going to be playing a bunch of festivals this year too so if you're at any of those come say hi but yeah love that and uh last but not least i'm koopa troopa very thankful to have been hosting this panel kartik thank you as always for against the space and it was a wonderful conversation cooper thank you so much for moderating uh this amazing chat and kate karma and olive thank you so much for being part of it and giving out so many amazing perspectives really appreciate this thank you guys good luck with the rest of the hackathon thank you so much [Music] [Applause] [Music]