Institutional-Grade Crypto Investing: Fund Managers Reveal What’s Working for Family Offices | EBC11

Awesome. Thank you. Well, as you can see can see , we are one short today . Unfortunately Tommy couldn't come, but um on that subject, I don't know why I came because someone called me and said, "Hey, I'm coming from Canada, would you come and speak to moderate a panel in Spain?" It was very difficult to say no when asked difficult to say no when asked .

I heard one Canadian laugh. Thank you. On that note, today we'll talk candidly about family offices and how institutional grade investing in crypto works for family offices . To put into context something that is not discussed much in crypto investing . Family offices were one of the first investors to really get into this field .

From the institutional side, we are all waiting . We all talk a lot . They are really at the forefront of this. So, this will be a candid discussion about what works, what doesn't work, what their specific needs are, and what common pitfalls are . So, it would be nice if you two briefly introduced yourselves.

Rob, will you start? Of course . Shawn, I'm Rob Dario. I am a travel professional. I have been in this field for about 30 years in trading, structuring structuring , and quant disciplines .

I have worked in various banks and organizations around the world. I started Alpha Party about three years ago , where I saw that there was a lot of alpha in the crypto markets and, honestly, a lot of money to be made. That means the trading teams that I thought were awesome didn't show up much. So I thought we could come and do a good job . That's where we started started .

We started trading with our own money, with our own capital . Then we took some SMAs. Then we launched Alpha Party Capital . Are we launching Alpha Party Capital on November 1st next month ? We really evolved into it.

We currently have 100 million soft commitments . There are BTC, USDT, US and Swiss share classes . That is going very well . In short, it's us. Louis, what do you want to say say ?

Hi, I'm Louis Harland from RE7, a portfolio manager running Liquid Alpha Strategies. We manage 1.5 billion across the organization and through various investment strategies . Liquid Alpha, VC, Market Neutral, etc. Thank you for inviting me.

Yes. Hello. My name is D. I am working with FK . There was a panel with FK in the past , so you already have a little introduction , but I'll say it again.

FK is a traditional asset management company. We manage 175 billion worldwide . You all probably know us through ETFs , but we've also been in crypto since 2017 . I am a partner in a crypto hedge fund . We have grown from 25 million in 2022 to 200 million today and are very successful in what we do .

I am the fund's trader, managing operations , happy to be back in Barcelona, ​​and I hope to share some things with you tonight . Good afternoon everyone. I am Bernali Visual. I am the CEO of the Hilbert Group. Group is a publicly listed digital asset investment firm based in Sweden.

Currently we have various divisions in the business . The main one is asset management. We manage approximately 500 million in assets . We are also heavily invested and active in things like DeFi and Web3 . Thank you, friends.

As for my introduction , I will be hosting this panel discussion today . My name is Josh Huber, and I am one of the managing partners at Velox Trading. We are a quantitative investment manager. My background is as an ETF issuer. I don't understand why Venek is repeatedly included in these panels .

We will try very actively to prevent that from happening . So you should talk to the ETF panel organizers from earlier today , because they're getting a lot of time . So thank you very much for setting the context. I really tried tried , but I don't understand it . Let's set the scene and get this started, friends.

I would like to hear from all of you about the current situation . When people talk about family offices , what are they really talking about? Everyone says that companies are coming. Are they really investing? Let's assess the situation.

What is the current situation? Let me start with you first, Rob. Of course . Look, the current situation is very interesting. If we look at it, think we can break it down into a few steps think we can break it down into a few steps , right?

So, if we go back 5 years, the questions I get from organizations and families are usually, "Is this real? What is BTC ? Will it go to zero?" These are. Questions like that really question the value of this asset class and whether it should exist or not, right?

So, recently, the questions we're getting have changed a lot , right? I mean, the questions that I'm getting are more thoughtful thoughtful , like, " Where do you think BTC is going think BTC is going ? How do you think the regulatory environment is going to change ? And, certainly, there are a lot of questions coming from families about education , right? They want to know to know , they want to get an understanding of the sector , they want to understand how market participants are moving.

I think that's a very broad question think that's a very broad question . Another question about institutions: I'm definitely seeing a lot of institutional investment coming into this sector now, and it's also showing in the margins that are decreasing. I think there's been a lot of alpha coming out of this sector in the last 12 months think there's been a lot of alpha coming out of this sector in the last 12 months , right? Thanks Rob Lewis. They're definitely here in terms of family offices.

It's been an interesting evolution over the last few years, and a significant part of it is education, where basic questions like, " What is DeFi," " What are stablecoins," come up, and over time people are recognizing what it is, even if they don't understand it deeply . So, it's a kind of ' a kind of ' saliency effect', which is, " Oh, I heard about stablecoins again. " You see that in the news. So, there's definitely that surface level part. But what they're interested in , it's probably on the market neutral side.

How do we look at risk-adjusted returns? think about sustainable returns? How do we build investment strategies in a liquid alpha, safe manner? Not recklessly. Do you use leverage?

Things like that. So, what they're looking for will become clear over time. Because we've found that family offices are different in terms of their interests. Or they might look for things like a master fund setup. So they're really saying, "Look saying, "Look , we're in private equity .

We want a long-term trend play here . We all invest in master funds and actually have a long-term capital lockup, but you can actually play across cycles based on different investment strategies , which I think is definitely the first time in the last few years . " Yes, great point. Tys. Yes, I agree with that .

We've been teaching family offices for the past three years that we've been here . I want to add one thing and that's the demographic shift coming from the younger generations in family offices. So we're talking to a very young age group of people, 20 to 30, and they're going to be the future of these family offices and they're coming to us and they want to invest in crypto . The next question is, how do they want to do it ? Some invest in Bitcoin, some open portfolios in family offices and invest, but some come to us and let the experts invest.

Yes, it's interesting to see now and especially in the last year we've seen more family offices allocate their funds to RE7 or FAC for example, which they think is doing better than our internal portfolio . Maybe that's the reason but yes the change is good, every year we're seeing more adoption and yes this I think it's very much in the moment . Now it's good that we're back . Yes we're back . We're back Are the family officers still here?

And I'll get to that . Right on time for you. Bernali, do you want to make a little comment on this ? What are they actually investing in? Are they here ?

I mean, if we look at the numbers , it certainly seems to be true true . Because, if you look at any polls, if you look at the general names without naming names , it seems that about 25 to 30% of all family offices are invested in some capacity in digital assets . That's up significantly compared to 2021 , which was about 15%. However, it's still common for the level of investment to be less than 2% of their total AUM. That hasn't changed.

Certainly new family offices have come in and that's mainly driven by the introduction of ETFs. They're more comfortable and it's easier for them to enter through that route than buying hedge funds or digital assets directly. I want to add to what I've already said in relation to the second point in your question , which is The conversation has generally become more mature. Not just the market and so the infrastructure , but there is a particular conversation happening now with the family offices that we meet where there is a focus on building something that is long-term rather than maximum return or fixed return, which is a significant change and it is something new . So do you think it is an outcome-based goal rather than maximum return think it is an outcome-based goal rather than maximum return ?

Yes. No, I think it is more of a professional evolution think it is more of a professional evolution . So, I mean, any allocator or CIO in a family office has a mandate to allocate to digital assets. They certainly don't see it as 0.5% of my portfolio .

So I have to pick some operation and hope that it doesn't go down, and if it does go down, I think I have covered my loss . That is when you have a mandate, you have to scale and have recurring investment managers that you can go back to and have a long-term relationship, that conversation has definitely started. So there is more than just the number growing . Rob, do you want to comment on that ? Yes, I have a short comment on that in terms of the sector.

I mean, we This is in addition to what we talked about earlier . If you think about the families that have invested in crypto, initially it was just around VC, you know? But recently, in the last 12 months, we 've seen a shift from VC to liquid, which is a really big change, right? So people who are already invested, now I want to go into liquid . And I think that's a very positive thing for all of us .

Absolutely. Yes. I, I, I completely agree with that observation . Another important thing I want to say is say is that there are jurisdictional or geographic differences that we haven't discussed so far; Asia is still ahead, whether it's in terms of institutions or in terms of family offices , especially in the family offices segment . In our investor base, if you look at it , they're probably in the 20 to 25 percent range .

Europe has the lowest investments . They're probably in the 12 to 14 percent range . And when it comes to the US, it's in the middle , in the US Although investments are gradually increasing increasing , Asia is still at the forefront . On this, Louis, I will come directly to you. That is a good place to start my next comment, especially in crypto, the way family offices invest and their structures are very unique.

It is not about the product, but about the actual investment format. As you have observed , Louis, I will start with you first ; what structures are you seeing in SMAs or separately managed accounts, hedge fund formats, venture capital, and is this trend changing? Yes, the main thing about this is, I completely agree with you agree with you , when you talk about family offices, it is completely based on relationships , and it is a very deep bond with an individual . So, you have to build that relationship . They have to know exactly how you do things.

They are not going to give 5% of their portfolio to a small hedge fund that has a year or so of experience. That is not possible. So, That's the important thing to take away from that . Which leads to your question ; we've been involved in Cayman fund structuring , and we also have experience in master funds, where the long-term relationship is expressed at a strategic level through the master fund . So for us, it's a combination of market neutral, venture capital, special circumstances that we haven't discussed before, and liquid alpha .

So they understand that market cycles change, and the best strategy changes with that cycle. So, they need that kind of understanding and composure, and they almost rely on a reputable firm to take them through the different cycles. It's definitely clear from the conversations we've had, that they're thinking long-term , but it's also clear that they're looking at it very deeply . So Tai, your structures are very flexible for family offices, so would you like to add something to that with a different perspective ? Yes, I totally agree with Lewis agree with Lewis .

Even after the investment, if they put 5% through their family offices , because the crypto market is changing rapidly You have to lead them . You have to explain that the next investment you make will have a different thesis than the previous one , and why you are adapting to that space . I mean, in 2022, our crypto portfolio was just crypto tokens, but today the majority of our funds are in listed equities that are related to blockchain or tokenization. Things are changing so fast , you have to be ahead of the market, but you also have to educate family offices after the investment . So it's not like putting 5% in So it's not like putting 5% in crypto and leaving it .

It goes a long way . Yeah. It made my job a lot easier. That's a good start to what I wanted to ask . So, how has it changed from 12 months ago to now ?

I know you were on stage at this same conference last year. Also, people in the Nordics are trying to escape the winter . I can understand that. What has changed in family office conversations from 12 months ago to now? You You mentioned maturity .

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that Absolutely. There are a few things we should be looking at here . The most important of which is the changing US regulatory environment. Also, with the full implementation of MiCA and the new US administration, there seems to be a way to set the rules, which naturally increases trust. We didn't have that in the past .

So a lot of our conversation was about what do we need to be prepared for when this comes into effect? How do I need to be prepared? What do I need to look at and be prepared for ? The second thing is that the whole industry has seen a real change in terms of infrastructure, especially after FTX. Because of this maturity, there is now a lot more discussion about how operators are running their business .

So there is a lot more discussion about policies, operations, risk management and systems . I don't think that will be a major topic before 2022. Do you think they are asking more in-depth questions now think they are asking more in-depth questions now , are we still in the learning phase ? Do we still need to explain what crypto is or are we past that stage ? No, there are definitely not those questions.

What is Bitcoin? There are no more questions. Um, that's new . Yeah. But I would say that generally, given our business model, we have very few people who haven't gone through that stage.

If you have doubts about the validity of digital assets , you don't look at an alternative investment manager. So there's a bit of a selection bias there. But to go back to the previous points that Josh made, in the past, fund structures were popular with a lot of family offices. Because one, they had an understanding of it; two, they found it easier to get into a fund admin than they did going into an exchange or a custody. So it used to be 50/50 in terms of preference for accessing this asset class .

But when you look at hedge fund offerings, I would say that there's a lot of bias towards SMAs now. Because people want high net worth individuals and family offices to build trust through the SMA first and then get into the fund structure. Yeah, I think it took a long time to rebuild that trust after the FTX situation . Rob, do you want to comment on how things have changed? ?

I've noticed a recent shift from SMAs to funds for larger families who are interested in investing . Because they're more comfortable with the fund structure , right? They want to know to know , I remember a little story. I was talking to a family office in Texas was talking to a family office in Texas , right? We were talking to their lawyer , he's very experienced and it's a multi- billion dollar family office, right?

We were talking about issuing API keys for the SMA and things like that . Then the lawyer asked me, "Okay, what do I do with that key ?" "That." Where should I put that key? " He thought it was a physical key , right?

He's actually very experienced, right? I mean they do n't have experience with that. Yeah. They don't have experience with API keys and things like that . That's why they're not very comfortable with that , but they always do fund allocations, right?

We have a Cayman fund and it's very easy for them to allocate to that, right ? There are other issues of course , but that's an interesting conversation. I think a lot of families out there are comfortable investing in funds , but they don't want to deal with SMAs and things like that . Recently, we've been seeing a shift away from SMAs towards fund investments. That's something I've noticed .

That's another nice twist. Maybe let's move this towards products ? The actual products that they're investing in , we discussed briefly above, but Lewis, DeFi is a very controversial topic. RE7 is one of the premium DeFi hedge funds in the world, as you know. When you mention DeFi in family offices, their What is the response?

It’s mainly for retail, sometimes with good risk- good risk- adjustment opportunities , but there’s also some controversy. What is their response to that? And how do you remove those complexities? I think one way is to say that at some point in the future it won’t be called DeFi think one way is to say that at some point in the future it won’t be called DeFi . It’ll just be called finance.

I’ve had this view for many years and maybe we’re not there yet . But it comes back to the academic aspect, which is that we spoke to VMS, a large family office in Hong Kong, who are now starting to invest in crypto . So, we’re very happy to work with them . And, I remember facing questions like that in the early days. In our case In our case , we were really investing in stablecoins, DeFi and TVL , we were like, are we betting on this or that .

You start with titles like that and take them into those deeper things, but some They stop there and slowly move forward, seeing how much they can understand without having to explain the terminology over and over again. But for us, it's really like taking them by the hand and leading them into those deeper things little by little. But one thing I wanted to say first is that this academic talk is very interesting . It's very much about the technology , but they're not really interested in things like private keys or operations. So it's like they don't want to know that side of things.

They're just so eager to know what's happening right in front of their eyes . So they want to know exactly about the market , about the different types of assets , about the tokenization of real world assets . We talked behind the scenes , and I think that's what's going to drive the next growth . It's not just in the West, it's also happening in Asia. So we tell them about those things, and then we explain these deeper things , and we say, " Actually, if you think about this real world asset tokenization," and they say, "We've already gone beyond the basics , so we can show you all these assets that are in the real world."

"It's not that hard to bring it on-chain ." Given our risk appetite , it's a great opportunity. We want to be involved in this as well . But it's going to take time. Yes, I asked your colleague exactly the same question a year ago on this same panel , and the answer was very different.

So as Bernali said said , it's interesting to see the shift in that . But maybe Bernali, I know from Hilbert's side that you're doing some work on DeFi. Do you encounter this when you talk to family offices ? Do they ask you because you're like a bridge between the two sectors ? Yes, to be honest we're a bit of an interesting and unique entity , because we're a public company.

So, you know, a lot of family offices want to get into this space ; for example, it's very easy for them to buy stock. But also, as you said, in our verticals , we're seeing different kinds of focus. To reiterate what Lewis said , a lot of family offices, honestly , as an operator, It makes sense in a sense . In traditional finance, do the allocators actually sit down and participate in that complex process ? I mean, a lot of it is just a form- filling job for the back office , and that’s what users expect from our industry.

Over time, companies like R7 have done a fantastic job of simplifying these technologies, the terminology, and the operational nuances . As that barrier gradually disappears disappears , you have more interest in whatever comes on-chain . I totally agree that there will be a single finance agree that there will be a single finance , but there’s no philosophical or ideological opposition to going on-chain . It’s very operational and technical in nature, and it seems very difficult for them . They don’t have thousands of crypto back office and ops people that they can hire overnight .

Yeah, that’s a great thing. Another quick question I have for both of you, have you ever mentioned family offices in the context of vaults mentioned family offices in the context of vaults , Louis, what do you mean by vault? Can you explain briefly? Yes, absolutely. It's being brought up again as part of the education , because if you go into that deep stuff, eventually you get to the vaults.

Well, to answer that, starting with fund management in our organization, about a year and a half, two years ago, in a brainstorming call, we discussed how DeFi is going to innovate . What's the next frontier? We thought that customizability, functionality, and modularity are going to be the next generation. So for us, it made sense to be a curator who manages risk . So instead of taking LB money into a fund structure, we could say that you can open deposits on-chain through a more modular lending protocol , for example, we can take it and direct the indirect asset management to get that yield , keep everything on- chain .

So we do n't have to touch the assets, but we direct the yield and where it comes from , with There are some complexities . Josh, another thing I would add is that I've seen a lot of people who have invested in our family offices , and it's been going on for 3 to 5 years . For example, they already have Bitcoin, Ether, etc. The natural next question is, " How do we use this without going back to the fiat rail?" " use this without going back to the fiat rail?"

" So we're also seeing organic interest growing. And that's really key. So whether it's a family office or a fund of funds, they define their balance sheet in terms of the sole . So it's an interesting conversation for them, they say, "You need to grow our sole balance." We say okay.

But the thing is, the family office may also have BTC exposure. So we say, " Based on these different strategies, you can put some of this BTC in our vaults, " even if it's not an integral part of the fund management. But as a firm, we provide end-to-end services , whatever strategy you need in DeFi or crypto, we're a point of contact for that and say, "We can service this," which is great. And that obviously helps with the negotiations. I know the same thing happens with you and Van, when we raise or invest in anything on the liquid side.

When we put it , our experience on the vault side really helps. All the L1s and L2s are looking to grow their TVL or ecosystem; given the experience we have, again we are a one- one- stop shop for that. It's very interesting that they are asking about on-chain asset management , that rate of change is very important. From my own experience , I can say that a year ago no one was asking about this . So, a different thing in terms of product, but it's very specific to family office conversations .

I want to talk about Bitcoin and Bitcoin denominated . I know some of you have products that are suitable for that . I'll ask you Bernalli first, then Tee. First, what are Bitcoin nominated strategies? In your experience , why are family offices asking about this so much asking about this so much ?

Yes. It's related to the point that L and I made , that most family offices that are already in this space and the new ones that are coming in, Bitcoin, Spot They are getting introduced to it through Bitcoin or ETFs . That's a primary entry point, and then the natural question that we're getting from family offices, as Lewis said, but also from onchain wealth or crypto wealth, is, we have a huge passive Bitcoin holding that's not generating any income. So, how do we generate income while maintaining or increasing Bitcoin exposure? So, a lot of Bitcoin strategies are about getting a return on Bitcoin through trading or other means, which is, getting 1.

15 Bitcoins per Bitcoin. This is a new shift, because up until about a year ago, almost all of the products in the crypto space were in dollars or fiat. So, I think that's been the fastest growing and most asked question from family offices this whole year, and probably since the middle of last year . And when it comes to Hilbert , we have different offers There are . We generate Bitcoin returns through our internal asset management , option strategies and other basis arbitrage and yield curve related strategies .

Also, we partnered with Tommy (not here) and with one of the Bitcoin banks and custodial institutions, Zapo Bank , to create a structured credit solution that provides credit-like returns with low risk, low volatility. So, there are many ways to analyze this and there is a lot of innovation that we are seeing in the DeFi space. One last point to add on this topic is that it makes sense for us to tokenize all of these offerings and bring them on-chain to meet the on-chain demand . So I think it all has a lot to do with the fact that the discussion has matured , so that the mandate is broad and that is leading capital to pursue different types of return opportunities . And I know you are coming from a slightly different perspective.

Are family offices asking you a lot about this type of product as an ETF issuer ? No, I mean, we just launched a Bitcoin ETF . Family offices start there. And first of all , I have to say, you see a lot of demand from family offices that were invested in gold before Bitcoin, and they're moving towards the digital gold story. That's great for us because we have an ETF .

But for the return strategies, yeah, we do n't want to run that. So you just said one bitcoin at 1.15 . I haven't seen any 15% return strategies. If you have them, let's talk after the panel .

We won't disclose the information. But yeah, there's a little bit of risk in selling a Bitcoin ETF and bringing the wrapped Bitcoin to Layer 2 and getting a five to 6% return , there's some risk to that . So we have that The question doesn't come up often. They often ask us about a Bitcoin ETF or how do I get exposure to Bitcoin in general. So maybe it's more limited to the crypto wealth that went to the family office , rather than the family office that got the crypto wealth.

So I think this is the last question that fits on this topic , Rob, I'll start with you , like active versus passive, hedge funds versus ETFs . Tell me where do family offices start when it comes to investing in crypto? I've seen it said passive and generally VCs, right? People just buy BTC and hold it. Ty is laughing a lot .

Yeah, he's laughing because that's natural. He has an ETF, right? So look, that's where it really starts. But then the next question, as we discussed earlier , where do we get the returns? Right?

People have a lot of BTC and they want to know what they can do with it. . I mean, for a lot of funds, one thing they can do if they're not on-chain is look at the BTC share class. You know, this is something that people still don't fully understand. I've talked to some families, I've talked to a guy , he has over half a billion BTC.

So, I had coffee with him and I said we have a BTC share class, and he said, " What does that mean?" " he What does that mean?" " he asked. I said, " Look, we'll hedge back to BTC ." You can allocate to us directly in BTC without going into fiat currency .

We can give you a return on your BTC and you can keep your BTC, that made him very happy , right? I mean, understanding those types of strategies , how they work, how hedging works, it's all a matter of awareness. But, I think that would be very interesting think that would be very interesting . Looking back now, I think we will move more towards active management think we will move more towards active management , but it will depend on the sector and the asset class becoming more sophisticated and mature . I think it takes time for all of this to happen , so there are awareness campaigns that we need to do , it's important to talk to as many people as possible, share information and get them to the point where they think, "I'm ready to invest."

So I think this is all part of it . Okay, Tai, if you're leading this effort , my friend, tell me yes, I agree with Rob . People start with passive investments . But yes, it's similar to Stratfire. So you have passive investments and hedge funds.

If a hedge fund consistently performs well, at the end of the year family offices look at that performance and think, "Okay, since active is doing better than passive investments, maybe I should invest a little more in active." Then it will make sense . But right now, most family offices are buying ETNs or ETFs first , then we try to explain the other strategies we have, and we hope that eventually they will have both . We are not advising you to choose one or the other , but rather to keep it as a complementary strategy alongside Bitcoin exposure . Yes, you said that.

That's a good point. You've said a lot that you have a lot of investors in your gold products as well . Do you have other asset classes besides crypto that you would start family offices with and later merge ? So, to your previous point, you see them starting with a gold ETF product and saying, "Oh, what's the closest thing to that?" We want to do a long short fund .

Is that a discussion discussion ? I don't think it has anything to do with crypto , but the best ETF this year is the defense ETF . And I don't know how we can translate that to crypto, because yeah, defense crypto. I haven't heard of it, but maybe that could be a starting point for creating a crypto related to the defense sector . I don't know .

When the time comes. But, the last thing I want to address for all of you, think the most important question for the audience, is, think the most important question for the audience, is, but going forward. We've talked a lot about the rate of change . Things have changed very rapidly in the last 12 months . But going forward, we all want to see more adoption .

We know that family offices are the starting point for institutional investing. Ripple versus PVP We all know that a boom lifts more boats. So what is the main catalyst for a minute each? What do you think is the main catalyst for more adoption think is the main catalyst for more adoption ? I'll start with you, Robin.

I'll continue continue . Just awareness and education. People need to understand more about this asset class, how it works, and be more comfortable with it . So, our job as proponents of this asset class is to talk to as many people as possible, participate in panels like this, go to breakfasts breakfasts , go to lunches, meet people, discuss with them what's going on; and then that education, providing the research that you have , telling interesting things, and ultimately they invest. I use this word in a sentence form , but institutional grade strategies and infrastructure, it's almost obvious .

I do n't want to say it, but they're looking for it, especially in terms of risk management. Especially after this weekend , the largest liquidation event in crypto history . Yes, they're looking at stress tests like that . How did you cope cope ? That process What?

Because it really exposes how they’re handling things. And I think that, combined with the maturity around tokenization of real- world assets , is going to be the next catalyst, rather than regulatory changes . Yeah, it’s definitely about stablecoins. So I think stablecoin adoption is also going to apply to family offices think stablecoin adoption is also going to apply to family offices , so we’re seeing more investors investing with stablecoins instead of USD or Euros . I think family offices are becoming more aware of how much stablecoin payments are happening each year and which projects are benefiting the most from stablecoins think family offices are becoming more aware of how much stablecoin payments are happening each year and which projects are benefiting the most from stablecoins .

I think that’s going to drive everyone towards crypto , because now we’re seeing more stablecoin adoption. More companies are adding stablecoins as a payment method . In June we saw 16 companies in the S&P 500 mention stablecoins in their earnings calls . So we’re seeing more stablecoin adoption. I think we're going to go from there and we're seeing more investment not only in crypto products but also in crypto hedge funds.

Yeah, that's the main thing for us. Yeah. I don't have much more to say than that . What seems clear to me is that we need a lot more regulation and that would help more institutions like VanEck and other large traditional financial institutions get involved immediately. And it's not just about legitimizing this sector, but it's about creating the belief that there's going to be consistent profit and returns.

Yeah, that does n't need explaining. And the second point, it was mentioned at one point , but we're underestimating the generational shift . 85% of family office ownership will change hands in the next 5 years. That's a very significant number. Yeah, that's a lot of wealth.

Awesome. Okay, look, that's all for now . So, thank you again for joining this panel and everyone, give us a round of applause for our panelists. Good job, Josh. One.

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