The Rise of NFTs

[Music] hello and welcome to everyone we have a very very exciting panel discussion in front of us the rise of nfts use cases today and tomorrow very hot topic very exciting topic we have a group of experts to discuss this and i'm now going to let the word to alexander our moderator so the stage is yours and enjoy the conversation thank you so much thank you so much for being here let me introduce myself real quick my name is alex i'm at attentive had been crypto i started as a crypto journalist a few years ago and i had the opportunity to look in various crypto niches like investments nfts and d5 of course and i'm pretty excited to have you all here to talk about nfts and maybe we can all introduce ourselves maybe sean you could start hi everyone i'm sean gardner i've been working at the intersection of blockchain and the music industry since late 2017. i've deployed a product called emanate which is a on-chain music distribution collaboration and monetization platform launched the first version back in 2019 uh through 2020 we launched some of the first nfts for dead mouse at the end of 2020 and in early 2021 did nft sets for weezer and another another round for dead mouse and then um this year we've been pulling together a project called moda dao which is focused towards launching um and sort of fast tracking the adoption of web 3 technologies through the music industry with a dow first approach so really just getting great people together to connect the dots create standards and move things forward in a mature way so we've been getting that team together raising funds and launching our token um this year which has just gone out in the last couple of weeks and um yeah it's been the most exciting year um in crypto for sure and it's a pleasure to be here thank you so much chris you want to take over yeah sure hi i am chris carascosa i am a lawyer and i've been in the crypto space since 2013 2014 i've been working at international law firms in the crypto practice and i lived in switzerland during the 2017 ico run so i had the experience first person then this year i launched alongside with a partner our own crypto law firm which is the first spanish specialized crypto law firm that exists and i think the only one to the day and we are currently working both with crypto native startups and dao like projects and also with more traditional companies that wish to dive into the crypto space but don't do not know really how and of course they want to do it in a legal and compliant way so we go with them and we walk the bus of the crypto um rabbit hole and um of course as sean said this has been a very exciting year and i think next year will be a little bit more thank you so much bruno yeah hi my name is bruno and i i currently run i mean i founded remark which is the world's most advanced nft protocol and a set of standards on the kusama network and we we have a prototype launch set of nfts that demonstrates this advanced functionality but also run a platform that's open to everybody um kind of like a you know open c for for the kusama network that's called singular where we have um a lot of good art being minted every day so yeah thank you so much okay before we deep dive into the world of the nfts let's make sure that we all know what nfts are i think everybody knows the crazy cat give nfts or like jack dorsey's first tweet which i think was sold for 3 million correct me if i'm wrong so nfts are non-fundable tokens uh the difference is in this uh interior changeability bitcoin we can just interchange no problem but nfts these are like information on the blockchain which are for everybody free to see on the blockchain because it's transparent and open um and it can be anything from photos to music anything we wish for and i think we just saw the beginning of the end of nfts the world is huge and i think we will see a lot more kind of nfts than we actually see now um maybe we can start with how nft has changed your life and what kind of nfts you are using and producing maybe even who wants to start sean sure um sure thing so yeah i can safely say that nfts have completely changed my life um we sort of found working at the intersection of blockchain and music since 2017 that um once we came out of that that big sort of bull run through the end of the year and started going into the crypto winter through 2018 and 2019 it was really difficult to get people to pay attention to what was being built and the real sort of innovation that was happening and we got a hell of a lot done during that time but um yeah it was hard to really have proper conversations with people in the music industry for instance and then um once we started rolling into 2020 and came out of the the end of the d5 summer um you know people just started to ask more and more about the application of nfts in the music industry and suddenly um you know these big sales started to pop off and we started discussions with dead mouse and his manager about doing a one-of-one on super rare and then doing a card set on wax and got that organized between sort of august and december 2020 and um so much stuff was just kicking off um in nfts in general but in the music industry more broadly and suddenly you know every music manager wanted to talk about what was happening and what was going on and how to wrap their head around it how should they get involved and it really just changed things um for us and led to the formation of motor dow as well because we could see this real sort of land grab happening and a bit of a gold rush going on but it didn't feel sustainable at the time and it wasn't looking back on some of the sales that happened and everything um so we set up this mission to to really make things sustainable and work out how nfts were going to be used in the music industry more long term um so yeah it professionally it really kicked things up a gear and for me it was the first time that i've really been at the very very start of a kind of hype um a hype cycle i guess you could call it um when you know when i got into crypto we caught the end of the 2017 um ico boom um i only kind of caught the end of the d5 summer because i was so busy just working on on things relating to our products but um i was there right at the start when this nft boom started to happen and was lucky enough to buy up board apes a few hours after they were minted and follow the different sort of run of projects and things and um it's just been the most fun the most fun i've ever had professionally and um you know in the middle of lockdown and everything that's been going on in the world with the pandemic it was kind of one of the things that got me through just that entertainment value that you could have through your phone and your computer screen so um completely life-changing and um you know really just felt like the the the professional world and and the passion coming together as one and i think that's why we've had such an awesome creative boom um through all of this as well nice thank you how did you experience the crypto nft hype this year chris so i really feel identified with sean even though we we professionally are um in very different sectors but to me it was also like the confluence of my professional career with my passion which was crypto but um i think it was more of a professional upgrade or a professional i would say um brain stretch because it it came alongside with new clients who are saying we are maintaining these nfts and we are going to sell them um or we are meeting minting these in the worst case it was i've already minted this nft and i have already sold it what can i do now with it or what can i do now with my success so um what it's supposed to be was to actually get hands down study a lot get a track on what was happening i wasn't so lucky as to purchase a birthday but i did purchase some nfts my on my own to see how did it technically work so that we could we could then legally see the consequences and since then since then i mean it's been really this year but it feels like it's been a couple of years now since then we've been working and i've been working very very thoroughly with clients that are not only minting nfts like for um like art like maybe board apes would be and we also have some clients who are doing generative art others that are doing nfcs for gaming we are even looking at using nfts for personal credentials and and social credentials so for me it's been like a big big big challenge but professionally more than personally thank you so much bruno um yeah i was i was in ethereum since the beginning but didn't really pay attention to nfts until 2017 with the cryptokitties boom um i was i was a big part of that but when it died down nobody was really kind of sorry everybody expected it to die down and to be a fad so it was like all right so that happened um and so this new boom i i noticed that it was taking a similar ramping up approach in last year when it was starting and um but but by then i was really frustrated with the state of nfts on ethereum it was always just a link to an image and this is this is why i built remark to kind of move a few generations beyond that primitive nft style and this actually turned out to be a really good call because there is high demand for um you know composable nfts that have multiple resources at once that can be governed like daos that can be and all of these nft legos that we've constructed that can you know fit together to to create a system of any complexity um it turns out that that people really do need this people really do want us and that um if you just put in a little effort you can unlearn the fact that an nft is an expensive image and relearn that nft is just any row of data online that you can cryptographically prove that you own and once you see it that way then it opens a lot of new doors and it becomes really really cool to explore this entire nft um ecosystem from you know composable music that we're playing with where you have like an nftb a beats track and an nftb a vocal strike and an nfc be a filter and then you mint those nfts into another nft that is an empty music sheet and then that that that turns out to be a full playable composition which knows who contributed how much and how to distribute the royalties from that it's really cool but also on the other hand with the meta verses and gaming scenarios stuff like this is really important because right now all the meta versus all the games out there are super super centralized where you essentially join somebody's multiplayer game it's not a real metaverse so all of this turned out to be the right call to build this advanced infrastructure however hard it is to for people to understand it it seems that you know like every 10th team understands it fully but when they do they really take off um and so i think that that as as this shift into nft's 2.0 begins we'll see less and less focus on expensive images and clipart rocks for four hundred thousand dollars and more and more focus on uh intricate cross project cross chain compatible item economies uh in-depth multi-layer compositions of music audio and video and a lot of other interesting stuff that people haven't really even imagined so far so this is why i'm excited about the new nft bloom now thank you so much what interested me most in the last couple of weeks is the merge of nfts and metaphors i found it super interesting to see because now it's coming to the masses with facebook's meta and all the the pr about metaverse and anything and i think we are already living in the meta where some of us at least and for us okay it's it's crypto is not new to the metaverse but i think the mainstream is new to the metaverse and how can we expect nfts and metawars to go together how is it used now and how could it be used in the future who's going to take on this um i could well right now when you have something like a board ape if you want to put that into i don't know decentraland what that boils down to is you have the board ape in your wallet and what when you log into the central admirer sandbox what that application does is it checks if you're log in with that wallet it checks if you have the balance of the board ape if it exists in your wallet and then it allows your avatar in the game to use a visual asset that is already in the game and mapped to that avatar in some sort of centralized database on their end and so this is not the metaverse way this means that in order to get some nft into a metaverse you have to first commission a team usually the team that runs the game to build an asset that matches this nft that you have upload that into their client store it in a database where the id of the nft is mapped to that asset in the game and then when your checking is complete when you log into that application when your wallet is checked out then your avatar is allowed to use that asset this is not the way to go um because you always have this this layer of things and if if that game disappears if sandbox disappears if all of that goes away it's not like your nft keeps that model around you have no idea what you had from experiences and anything you gained in that metaverse to the actual avatar that you used so um so currently all metaverses make the same mistake they all work the same way they all work they all do this and this allows you to technically be in more places at once multiple places at once because you can just log into other metaverses with that same thing the check is always the same do you have that board ape if so then allow this avatar to be played um this is kind of like goes against the you know the the um the demand side the scarcity side of that nft you can't really expect to be using it in 10 different meta verses because that's not it then on the other hand if you have like a more advanced system where you can have one nft have multiple resources that vary the output depending on context then you can do some magic like if you have an ebook that's a pdf that that has one nft but that nft has three resources a pdf file an audio file and a high resolution cover then depending on the context you load it in that resource gets loaded so if i load it into if i load that nft into audible it will play if i load it into a kindle it'll be able to be read same thing with metaverse avatars if i have a board ape in in a new in an nft 2.0 system that one nft that is board ape can have an alternative resource that is 3d model of that ape and that 3d model is attached to the nft not to the game you're playing it in which means that you can import it into the game the game can make sure that your nft is in that game because you will send that nft into a land space in the game this is what these nested nfts enable so if a piece of land is an nft then you can send your nft into that piece of land and your nft cannot be anywhere else and this means that you are truly in that metaverse with the avatar that is fully aware of everything it needs to render itself in that metaverse and this is i think the necessary step towards a real metaverse where you actually do have enforceable scarcity but also through ownership of these digital assets and this is what we'll see a big shift towards as other marketplaces and projects realize this this need and and start shifting towards the standard thank you we already have a question and i think it's fitting in how can we explain in a simple way what really are nfts to the rest of the world regarding to digital ownership pollution stealing art and all what we know what nfgs might be who wants to take this one feels like it leans towards legal a little bit yeah okay i i i will try i'll try i'm trying uh so from more from uh from a legal standpoint nfcs are considered to be as user alex they are not fungible with means which means that it has no replacement so if if lost so this is something we're taught at at law school when we study what non-funchability is and this is that if you um lose that asset if that gets lost then there's no replacement in the same way that if you um you lend it and it doesn't come back in the same way then it does not have a replacement this being said the nft i always say that is it's just the way of wrapping up that characteristic which is non-conservability so what you're doing is you're wrapping up an asset that does not have a substitute it's unique then when you put that inside the concept and the and the ecosystem of crypto and digital assets that means that you've created for the first time in history real assets that are um digital by by nature and that they have no replacement which means that and this is something that i wrote in in my substance which means that you've been able to create assets in the digital world and you've been able to create with tokens so not non-nfcs but tokens you've been able to create an economy if you take that to the metavirus because you can you can explain nfts from from very different perspectives but linking in with the metaphors my sense is that are the real world assets that we have in the physical world and tokens are the economy of that um of that digital world and d5 are the financial markets that we have um in wall street for instance but everything is digitally native so that's the difference between nfcs and something that would be more like physically replicable thank you so much we have another question which is really interesting and fitting in i'm so sorry nfts are the new wild west of the crypto world i think and um it's a bit overwhelming someone is asking right now with so much going on and a bit like the wild west how can we qualify which nfts are really high quality and which is not taking uh not having real value because this is what i see all the time when i entered the nft space i was like okay this is a bunch of cats whales and everything is expensive and i don't really have no clue what to buy do i need to buy something and of course i'm a crypto expert i know how this world is uh working but for anybody who's entering the space this must feel like the biggest overwhelming ever how can we differ between real value in nfts and not so valuable nfts i think like um my sort of advice to anyone that feels like they should be getting in or should be buying something um is just to probably like not try to be so rational it's a fairly irrational space and if you were buying like physical artwork or a sculpture or something for your home you probably would make a more emotional purchase um you know you generally would be more drawn to a painting because of the way it makes you feel or you like the colors it's not going to be particularly rational like i'm buying this painting because i think it's going to be worth four times as much in six weeks or i'm buying the sculpture because i think it's going to be worth more in two years i think um you know if you if you want to get into nfts and you feel compelled to for some reason as a collector probably follow your gut and like when something is really screaming at you that it needs to be bought um then maybe that's the one you know make sure it fits within your price point do a bit of research about the project ask some friends who maybe know a little bit more about crypto and and and maybe that's the one you know um for me like when i when i bought my board apes in the beginning i i it was screaming at me like did you need to buy these things that i saw what had happened with crypto punks and i was like i love them straight away and i bought one for my brother and um there's all sorts of cool stories that go along with it but um it was a real gut feeling and i think the same is going to apply to music as well as music gets more traction in the nft space like buy the songs that you love um don't buy them because you think they're going to be worth more in a couple of weeks because that can go in either direction yeah exactly can you tell us a bit more about nfts and music what is happening right now and where is this heading within the next few years um yeah i don't think there's been any real serious traction yet with nfts and and music obviously there's been some great music industry nfts collaborations different sort of audio visual pieces but we're really focused on the audio actual song releases um there have been a few things with kings of leon justin blau and others over the last year or so but the i guess like the the topics that are quite hot at the moment really there's a lot of discussion around whether a song um a song as an nft needs to have a percentage of ownership of that song in it or whether um a song can just be a digital collectible in the same way that we would have collected um vinyl or a cd um not so long ago and so there's a lot of discussion around that i personally feel like we can just collect music as a digital collectible and that if you have any sort of royalty percentage that's kind of a cherry on top and and starts to turn it into a different beast and there's just a lot of discussion around where this might actually take um the music industry over the next decade or so because people inherently feel like i've seen um a bit of pushback even a couple of weeks ago um deadmau5 sold a song with um portugal the man and a lot of people were saying why are you selling a song as an nft music is supposed to be enjoyed by everyone and now you're making it exclusive and there's a bit of an inherent flaw in that argument because um as soon as a song is sold as an nft it's there in ipfs and it's available for anyone to listen to we just don't have this kind of shared infrastructure for streaming these nft songs yet so um there's an idea that over the next you know few years we might go towards a place where music is actually free to consume and free to listen to but the artists make money through the sales of nfts to their super fans which is an interesting new paradigm um so i don't want to go on about it all day i could if you wanted me to but um yeah those are the things at the moment that are interesting to me awesome thank you i've recently seen that snoop dogg had an uh concert in the metaverse is this a thing or is it like a one time okay this is definitely a thing this is definitely a thing yeah um we've got we've run a number of metaverse um events we actually have one on in two days for um inside crypto voxels which is our christmas party and we've got about 10 or 12 artists lined up to perform a live set um inside this crypto octal space and we did the same thing for our two year anniversary and these are like um real gigs especially especially to like the younger generation um and especially in this time of sort of dubious conditions around whether you can actually go to a face-to-face concert and whether you might get shut down at the last second or um whatever i think like covert partially has pushed us in this direction where virtual shows are um a very very real thing now and people are getting paid for them and um yeah it's it's definitely definitely not going to go away i think i think we're going to get to a point where um being at a physical face-to-face show is a a real audio visual treat for the senses but that most live shows will have some sort of virtual version that you can attend from anywhere in the world and you might have 10 000 people at the real live show but you might have 10 million tuning in through various different virtual sort of metaverses and landscapes online so um it's really happening fast and one of the things that's not happening just yet which we're really looking at closely with mota dao is there's currently no way for people to collect royalties properly within that space and again that's where nfts come in um you know in the real world if someone performs one of your songs or if a dj plays one of your sets in a nightclub or a cafe or a bar um then there's usually a collection agency that will try to collect some funds for the performance of that music and that's not currently happening in the metaverse at all um so we don't know what the solution is just yet but um we've got you know a lot of people thinking about it and working on potential technical solutions so that people can get paid fairly in the metaverse um and out here in the real world as well thank you chris a question for you from my side how can we maybe explain to others how digital and physical world are growing together and how nfts help and what is the legal outlook on this when these two worlds merge you're muted i'm sorry yeah sorry um tough question but the thing is that we are dealing constantly at our law firm which is called ath we're dealing constantly with this like um misfit that means that we're trying to deal with new assets inside very traditional transactions and very traditional regulations and very traditional contracts so i would say that there's a way of bridging that physical world with the digital one but it takes a team of people who actually know on the first place how does the technology work that's that would be like my my super first recommendation and secondly they need to know or they need to be able to translate that um the the planning behind the technology to uh through like real world or more not so technical language and and enforceable um agreements from a legal side i mean is this easy no i don't think so and um we've been dealing now so for instance we there's there's currently now um a big discussion in the legal ecosystem at least in europe which is whether regulated companies which are funds and vcs can invest in tokens so for instance in spain that seems to be a no answer uh so what we're trying to do is uh because at the end of the day vcs and and funds and um professional investors are super interested in entering the nft space and you know we've got like these new structures of um composable nfts and nft funds and dows managing nft funds so it gets complicated and sophisticated as you you get adding more and more surfaces but what we are trying to do with it is um v innovative but we using the the current framework so things like softies or um just rethinking about soft sun investment contracts and and you know um we are like um working on the path of something that is between already a regulated activity but something that is not regulated so that our task or our challenge is to build that bridge so that clients or startups that are doing super innovative things and there are a lot of them can actually see that they can do their business with a legal a very high level of legal certainty in a jurisdiction so one of my like my claims i know us lawyers are not very very um well seen we do not have a very good reputation inside the crypto space so one of my claims is to make the law very approachable to this to these um digital metaverse versus daoish projects and just make them understand that the law is something that they that we can all benefit from even even if it's anchored to a physical jurisdiction with a physical regulator thank you so much there's another interesting question do you see a market for physical nft such as antiques cars motorbikes and so on used within a metaverse bruno maybe this is something for you um yeah sure absolutely we are experimenting with some digital goods where you actually i mean this is just playing around but right now we actually when when we're 3d printing some figurines you pause the printer at like two millimeters height you put the chip in an rfid chip and then you resume the printing so it gets sealed inside the figurine and then you have like um on that chip you have the link to the nft so that it's permanently bound to the nft naturally this can detach if you sell the figurine separately from the nft then it can very well happen that somebody owns the physical part and somebody else owns a digital part but it's still interesting nonetheless there's also a lot of interest in bringing these um physical goods as scans into various 3d environments meta versus not so much because right now 90 of the metaverse projects are focusing on 3d in the browser which means by default that their graphics will be sub-optimal and they will not be able to support high fidelity high resolution models scanned from the real world but there are some 3d gallery projects that actually do support high resolution projects though these are not really meta versus these are just literally 3d galleries still very interesting to explore but uh one of the more interesting aspects that that um you know is translatable from the real world into nfts is uh real estate deeds that can be represented as nfts and we've seen actually a couple of sales already where people sold their house using an nft as a deed uh naturally this also has some caveats and hoops to jump through uh this is something that chris will know more about but essentially the way we did it is you have to make a pre-arrangement with a public notary who is aware of this condition and this public notary will witness your burning of that nft in front of them as a claim to the deed and when that happens they can cryptographically verify this happened and the ownership of that deed transfers to the burner to the one who got there and burned that nft uh in the meanwhile from the moment of minting to the moment of burning this nft that represents a real estate like an apartment or a house can actually be freely traded online on decentralized exchanges used as collateral to get a loan or anything else that you want to do in the defy world but once you want to claim it you have to take that nfc bring it to the notary burn it there and then if you want to sell it again as an nft you have to remind that nft repeat that same condition with the same notary or a different one um this is just a limitation of the current government system globally where they just don't recognize blockchain yet as a true record of of information but this will change no doubt about it um one thing that nfts 2.0 may have make make possible with these things is also very interesting with that multi-resource and nesting capability you can actually have a deed that's an nft that inside of itself contains photos of that property or that location um energy certificates uh construction and renovation plans that happens throughout the years photos of a previous version of the house anything that you want from the past history of that deed can be can be contained inside of that one nft so that you don't have to chase it down with the various you know government offices around around everywhere and so on you just have pre-verified history inside of that one object and this adds more value um to the to the truth of that object when it's in its nft form and when it's being traded online so this is something very interesting so yes there's very much um a lot of interest in bringing physical things onto the chain that's high-level legal hacking hey bruno yeah thank you so much um when we talk about the future of nfts we need to talk about the environment as well because we saw a huge conversation about bitcoin and the environment uh when elon musk decided to not accept bitcoin anymore for his teslas and we see the discussion upcoming now about nfts and what is your outlook on this where are we heading and where are we right now who wants for pollution yes pollution uh i think it's kind of a crazy point um not really based in reality the blocks are going to get mined anyway uh full or not it's not like a fuller block spends more energy they spend the exact same amount of energy just some people pay more ether for for getting into fuller blocks than than into empty blocks but the block costs the exact same amount of energy it's no no heavier if it's very very full of transactions also there are tons of other blockchains now that just are proof of stake already and do not use mining at all where you know minting 10 000 nfts costs about as much energy as mother nature needs to digest a bread crumb so um if if people are worried about pollution and just about you know spending computing power on nothing i would recommend that first they complain to their governments and shut down various factions of the government where thousands of computers are sitting idly every day where people play solitaire on them and don't really do much more rather than a proof of stake network which actually financially secures the global ledger so it's it's quite a moot point nice thank you chris i have a question for you um real estate nfts how could this work because i already saw someone selling his home in germany for an as an nft but i don't know how this worked out legally i cannot imagine you're muted sorry yeah so this sort of transactions um they have been trying to be executed all around the world it it depends on the jurisdiction because you know land registries are different and they work differently in in different countries but for spain for for spain for instance real asset nfts are not like very feasible right now why it's because of our regulatory request and that is that you will always need a notary and a public teeth for the purchase to be uh legally valid this means that you can of course and and and it can be done and if you look up at the news i think it was in ibiza um um it was a real like a a very big household for an as an nft this is like the front end of the transaction the back end is that the seller went to the notary and then they did all the paperwork and everything was done as um like very old school like we've been doing for ages now it's just that you uh minted an nfc that said this is my public deed and this is my purchase agreement and then you can say i sold my my house as an nft but on the real side of things the truth is that the the legal operation was done as like as usual there was nothing new there was nothing digital there was nothing um crypto there nothing all right and what is your outlook on uh nfts and digital land like in the metaverse that's something different i mean um i think so the the way this the central land works with these spiritual parcels of land that are being sold so i don't think those are going to be ever considered as real state from a legal standpoint but more like a digital product which is something um actually it's great because we will not have to be compliant with all the large registry uh regulation which is like very very harsh and my like my thoughts around this is i am i am an owner of these intellect parcels so i do believe in digital land a lot actually i am saying it as um something that's complementary to what we today so we've been we've been all living in a digital in a physical world we we've gone digital only for like um social networks and twitter and linkedin and facebook and e-commerce and what we're seeing now is that we can actually um upgrade those um those those networks to something that is tokenized and has its own economy in this way what i see is that it will just uh flourish like a new ecosystem with with its own economy and of course those um those agents that want to make new revenues out of these new ecosystem then they will just be able to do so if they if they actually um make the effort of actually knowing how it works and how to get into it but i think it will they will just go live awesome thank you how do you think will uh legal issues develop around nfts like in for now it's super unclear for me it's like crypto in the beginning of course regulation will come but uh i i must say that i'm a lawyer but i'm not very fond of um regulation so or at least i'm not very fond of extra regulation so i've been studying my own regulatory framework and the european regulatory framework because i am part of the blockchain observatory and i've come to the same conclusion as the european uh commission that is that our current legal framework is is sufficient and is enough to cover today's legal um challenges but there may we may need to do some like adjustments not inside like the legal uh bodies but in the way we make interpretations so just a very small example the spanish regulator when icos and stos were being launched in spain and there were these security versus utility tokens what the spanish regulator did was and i see it as something very positive was instead of issuing new regulation and i think we can all agree we live in an ultra super regulated world what they did was they just grabbed our 2015 securities law and they said hey guys we can just re-interpret this article and say it can apply to tokens and in this way you know that if you want to issue a security token in spain you must be compliant with this law so nothing new the law that's been set forth like and it's been um now applying since 2015 but it works and we we are issuing security tokens in spain and we do not have any any legal problems and i mean besides scams which i mean scams will always be scams and that's something criminal not something of the securities laws so i think that legal challenges will rise on the sense of more of the criminal side of things you know so and with nfts we're saying it i was reading yesterday an artist in twitter who was complaining about someone copying um her pieces and actually uploading them in open c and she was saying okay i am selling my own pieces but there's someone that's selling them too and doesn't this mean that we haven't actually like fixed um a problem with with nfts and i i do agree but i think that issues will come on the criminal side of things which at the end of the day something that we cannot fix so we're humans and they're um and there always be someone that's willing to um commit fraud and always be someone that's willing to take your money and and and at the end of the day the regulatory framework for that sort of attitudes uh works at least in europe works and it's enforceable so thanks god we have it sure but in in many ways you have like um the the responsibility is also on the application layer of things and on the on the other humans to self-police and do this properly um if you have like a terrible terrible application doing most of the nft work in an entire ecosystem like openc for example then you can't really expect things to be done well um i mean if if if an application requires you to have a certain number of millions of dollars in volume before they will verify your collection as original that's that's flawed by design and that's almost as if it's made on purpose saying to to thieves hey please you know steal this much money from other people before we give you a check mark that's nonsense so we just need to think about it in a more um you know ux friendly way on how to how to you know just just protect people there's also a lot of different projects now coming out that will automatically identify cross-chain cross-platform cross-collection mints that are identical by comparing metadata images fractions of images and just basically doing automatic reverse search across many different nfts so that you get a warning when you actually try to buy something hey looks like this already exists in some form somewhere else and so i think this is more a user land problem than a legal problem there will of course always be thieves always be crooks always be people who are willing to do illegal things but um if platforms were thinking a little bit less about just collecting money and hoarding their their piles of gold in their underground caves and thought more about users i think we would have a much much cleaner landscape of nfts i couldn't agree more and i was having exactly this same discussion yesterday and i was holding the same argument that you are holding now which is the one that um what are we do we think that are we we are doing something good when we are not protecting smaller artists start protecting the bigger ones so it wasn't this i i think i remember this was about democratizing and making um a better world and these things and we'll just keep on committing the same mistakes so so i mean i i can i cannot agree enough with you but i also think that as you said we are still on a very embryonary um phase of the technology and we will surely see services coming up to cover this this sort of of holes or loopholes that we're saying now awesome thank you i have a question regarding gaming and nfts we didn't enter that space yet what is your thought on this because i think the use case now is already proven but the future is yet to come what can we expect in gaming in general gaming and nfts i think the use case is already there and active some use cases are being um are being explored like like selling skins for games for avatars um this is by by far the most understandable approach that will mo that most people will feel familiar with because they're already buying skins and counter strike in in uh fortnite they're they're buying skins only now they're doing it for in-game coins and not for crypto um and they can't really take their skins with them um once we translate that to users as in you now own this cosmetic item from the game we have like a good in with the mainstream crowd but i don't think this is the ultimate end goal this is just the foot in the door real ownership of experience is what the end goal is in a way that if you're playing a game you achieve certain levels you achieve certain skills you collect certain resources you buy some land you have some ownership in that game that ownership does not disappear if the team does if tomorrow the sec decides that sandbox you know needs to be shut down because for whatever reason the sec issues these warnings because they don't like somebody um the sandbox will disappear your land will disappear it doesn't exist anywhere else other than in their system right now and whatever you've achieved in that game goes down with that server goes down with that server cluster um it is not easy to restore you do have some record of owning some land but nothing else and i think that as we transition into richer nfts that can store more information you actually end up with experience you can take with you so if your avatar in a game is somebody is your primary avatar that you interact with frequently that avatar will gather experience you can think of an nft like an experienced card that nft as inside your avatar nft that experience card can get its own nfts like a badge if you're accomplishing something then a badge if you're accomplishing something else this travels with you this travels with your avatar but can be verified by every single metaverse you join and so if sandbox goes down tomorrow and i log into decentraland two weeks later decentralian can check oh if you accomplish this this and this in sandbox then of course we will let you into this club in decentraland and so by building this on-chain reputation in your primary avatar without having to juggle um different wallets different nfts and everything it's all collected into one bundle of experience that you can always take with you and your one bundle of ownership uh this is the true meaning of of the of the metaverse gaming experience where you just really own whatever you've accomplished you own your accomplishments you don't feel like you've lost the invested time in this parallel world which will become more and more and more common as we uh you know travel further into this covet madness so i think um i think that's the end goal for gaming but the skin trading already is pretty cool as a start thank you how could nft interoperability look like because now we see different niches like music videos anything gaming how could this merge or will this merge in the future maybe sean doesn't something for you i think we can talk about interoperability from a lot of different um points of view um i mean bruno was pretty much just talking about it then and we could talk about kind of cross-chain interoperability as well um but i think like the biggest thing that i see is um really like what we're talking about here is the emergence of a true digital economy and like most of e-commerce and the value that's been shared on the internet over the last couple of decades has related to the real world um whereas what we're looking at now is purely digital commerce that doesn't necessarily map back to the real world um and that's why we're witnessing such a boom and that's going to lead to all sorts of different interoperability and relationships between different games and nfts and and the real world as well thank you so much i think we are at the end of our discussion i thank you so much for being here and discussing this with me and i think i need to hand over to victoria now thank you alexandra sean chris bruno as you can see we had plenty of questions and many more that were not answered this is a good sign a lot of activities so thank you so much for for having such an engaging conversation i think we could have continued for another hour but we don't have another hour unfortunately so thank you so much to the four of you amazing and for the audience if you want to ask more questions to sean chris alexandra bruno they are all available through the people's tab so you can reach out there or you can reach out to via twitter or whatever platform you prefer thank you guys guys see you now in the next session bye bye adios bye-bye thank you [Music]