Blockchain Credentials for COVID-19 Data Management

[Music] so we are live with our next farmer later panel welcome to our panel on copic 19 data management we have a very very interesting setup here with four experts five experts sorry on the topic and i'm very glad to now give the word to benedetto please go ahead and enjoy it hello everyone and thank you with victoria for introducing i am benedetto biondi project manager at blockchain italia a software house basically which develops solution with the blockchain technology i am very glad to be the moderator of this panel during which we will discuss the opportunity that blockchains gives to the health sector in particular to manage data in verifiable credentials for copy 19. let me firstly introduce our international and exceptional panel speakers here with us we have savior villa he is the product manager at validated id hello savier marco cuomo he is an applied technology innovation manager for novartis and he is also the architecture and reference implementation colleague for pharma ledger consortium hello marco and also heather flannery she is the founder and ceo of consensus health hello header and the last but not the least daniel uribe he is the founder and ceo of zenobank during the last year we have seen that the magnetic as situation has forced us to stay at home for a very long time and now the vaccination campaign has started and it is mandatory to accelerate the international and socio-economic recovery and at this moment government in credential for bacne vaccination and testing has been the very hot topic we all of us want to back to normal life but it's quite difficult in this sense blockchain technology and the dlts can help to transfer the data shared between governments and business to help the to help to protect the privacies the privacy and of the individual and uh to help us to back to normal life so i would like first of all to ask savier he is from validated id i know that he is directly validated that he is directly interested into digital credentials and identities so we are please introduce yourself and a bit what you are doing with validated id hi vanessa thank you thank you very much and thank you for for having me here today uh well it's always a privilege for for for me and for us to be able to to discuss about what we do and what we like to do and of course uh it's an honor to share the floor with this kind of talented panel so thank you very much and well as a as a product manager at validated id um well what do we do actually uh right it is a truss in europe what they're called a trust service provider and we provide high i like to say highly secure v3 [Music] services for electronic signatures but but also for uh electronic invoices uh and decentralized identity and an ssi so the objective is try to make our custom we try and we hope we do try to make our customers life easier when they have to deal with all these all these all these services right and a big um background about me and well one of the main reasons i started working on the in this project actually a validated ide was that the idea know that there was a new technology not only technology but it was driven maybe by technology blockchain ssi that was that was potentially uh enabling a new a new way of dealing with with our data and uh and our relations in in in the digital world and actually yeah something until now thank you thank you sir i also would like to ask you specifically if at validated id you are doing something uh specifically for kovid19 verifiable credential and if you can tell us something actually well we uh we are supporting initiatives actually like the cci which is like a copy credentials initiative and and we're participating also in the good health pass and definitely we're closely closely following the the work undertaken by the who or the smart vaccination certificates and the main reason of that is that we don't want to tackle the cross-border interoperability challenge actually and since our because our objective is to be able to help uh health authorities public and private uh health providers partners and customers with uh with the right tools and on the framework to to to provide uh high uh trusted and secure identity services so what they're doing is well i think that you might already know but the current status of both digital green uh the digital green pass and and the who proposal is really on well to rely on public infrastructure to provide the root of trust and we believe that that could evolve to a more user-centric approach that would be using my very final credentials and definitely will be helping our partners to to go that way thank you so much xavier for this brief introduction of you and how validating validated id is actually helping this topic and now i would like to give the words to marco marco is part of the formal ledger consortium that which is aiming to revolutionize actually the health supply chain by emerging a different actor under a unique trusted layer uh marco can you tell us something about yourself and also about this uh pharma ledger and uh how is aiming to so to address these coordinating issues sure thanks benedetto for the quick introduction so my name is marco cuomo i'm working for novartis 15 or 15 and a half years and the last four years i'm focusing or i'm responsible blockchain or i try to find use cases uh for novartis how to use blockchain in an enterprise environment so we're not so focused on cryptocurrencies and these hype things we try to find things around blockchain around enterprise solutions which blockchain could be a good technology to help solve solutions and that's also the way and that's also why we started basically three years ago and to think how we can use blockchain blockchain alone makes not a lot of fun you need an ecosystem so it's a team sport you need other people around you other companies and that's why we started to to create something and that's called pharma lecture so farmer lecturer is a consortium with 12 pharma companies eight of the top 10 pharma companies in there and 17 public partners which are universities startup companies hospitals etc with the goal to build um the blockchain platform for the healthcare industry as we know that a platform alone is not really funny um we said we need also use cases so we also defined at the eighth at the end eight use cases to showcase the potential of that platform okay thank you very much very much marco and now i would like to give the words to heather welcome header to the panel and could you please tell us something about consensus health uh i know concert cell health builds ethereum-based solution for health care in industry so please give us a brief introduction overview and consensus thank you certainly benedetto thank you uh it's a great honor to be a part of this conversation with such esteemed panelists lovely to be here today my name is heather flannery i'm the founder and chief executive officer of consensus health consensus is spelled with a y to keep you on your toes uh and we are a commercially independent spin-off from consensus ag which is a large pure play blockchain company that's made substantial contributions to the advancement of the field over time in personally in addition to my role leading consensus health i also am the chair of the blockchain task force at the health information management system society or hymns i chaired the healthcare interest group at the enterprise ethereum alliance and i chair a standard in development at the intersection of blockchain healthcare and life sciences uh and machine learning particularly at ieee which is p2418.6 which is which was looking at blockchain ai convergence for healthcare uh and that combination of activities actually are all complementary and uh get to the uh the big picture view that consensus health is taking on industry transformation um we are building what we consider to be next generation global critical infrastructure for humanity and uh we are particularly focused on uh enabling a transition to person-centeredness that involves governance autonomy agency privacy dignity of the individual with respect to their use and access of health and health relevant information about themselves and this this transformation is um highly relevant to enterprises and governments who all in our industry wish to engage with patients and to do good which is why we're all we're all in this industry so consensus health is building a platform that is intended to serve to be run by blockchain consortia and uh also building a portfolio of products and supporting an ecosystem of third-party product providers who might wish to run on our platform if you will um importantly we strongly believe in in interoperability at every layer of the stack as being a top priority and avoiding vendor lock-in as another top priority so we actually we are certainly centered on the ethereum ecosystem but we are building solutions on other protocols and and establishing cross-chain interoperability for things like um the ability to transfer value between blockchains the the ability to have identities and decentralized identity methods interoperate um so those are those are some of our priorities that that are germane to the subject to this panel and thank you very much thank you heather uh i'm i agree with you totally every over every one of us is trying to give a bit of of good to this award by helping the the situation of kobe the 19 and um the last one that wants to introduce is daniel please actually introduce yourself and also tell us about uh your solution provided by genobank and what you are doing in this product to the difficulties that you are facing and how it's going thank you very much benedetto it's um also a pleasure and an honor to be here with all of you with this very important forum in now being broadcast in europe so i've been working with my team like these last three years a lot of you maybe have seen me holding this prototype which is the the one that has uh uh put us uh until until now this is a saliva kit right that is paired with a blockchain based wallet right that the the main mission is to put persons put their donors in control over their bio samples and the residual data so we are um very proud to be pushing or promoting the use of nfts the non-fungible tokens to represent the bio data so we we think we have the first bio nft use cases around the world and hopefully obviously won't be the the the last one we want to promote that and we are very very happy to be here to to talk about specifically the copied 19 test which is uh in essence an rna test so it involves obviously a biosample and we are we're very very proud to be here thank you very much benedict thank you very much to you dan so since you have mentioned the nft that you are using as solution i would like to ask the opinion about everyone over this topic that's everyone knows that nft in these days is the hot topic of blockchain uh so how do you think that this can help uh solving the covenanting issue also thanks to daniel for sharing your your uh product and what you're doing but also for the others how do you think some rods that nft could take and how actually they could be used maybe if i can yeah yeah you can add them okay thank you very much so our nft is basically uh or we think the nfts the the [Music] most valuable proposition they have is like authenticity or provenance right this is this is um a token that is usually generated with the signature of the author right if we are talking about like crypto art or a collective right in our case we consider our d our dna or our rna or whatever biosample let's say a biological artistical kind of of asset right where only you can have one author uh that is the the origin of this sample or well maybe if you have a twin that would be a little bit different but or an exception so our nft represents uh in this in in case of dna for instance um a specific unique variant in in your dna and we tokenize that to allow users to establish ownership and control over that specific uh data sets right these these are very easy to re-identify and we think that your biosamples is your bio property um in in this case in the digital uh metaverse and that's how we we justify um just lastly we have another nft that is inspired in the gdpr law this uh it represents permission over the use of this specific data and in in our use case researchers becomes a collectors of these permission tokens from donors in order to use their data in a again in a gdpr kind of framework yeah wow that's this is actually very great thank you very much daniel for sharing anyone who would like some interesting point of view about nft over healthcare go ahead and please yeah i'll i'll jump in there um danielle it's it's wonderful seeing ginobank's accomplishments with nfts and what you've done so far um i think it might be helpful to uh differentiate a little bit for for an audience who may not be aware of the relationship between a verifiable credential and an nft and how those things relate to one another and how they interplay whether if you're talking about decentralized identities or methods of implementing decentralized identities and verifiable credentials both of those are they are they are fixed and finite in what they are and what they can do when you apply those kinds of technologies and add non-fungible tokens or nfts into them they cease to be fixed and finite you can use that token to accumulate and aggregate metadata provenance data to to use it to assemble longitudinally uh a potentially growing data set you can link and hierarchically relate these these things and importantly you have created digital scarcity uh and that enables the the uh the possibility of uh trading data as a new asset class and with combining the technologies that all of us on this panel are working on and thinking about we have the opportunity to create ethically intentional data markets that that bring the data subject into economic transactions and uh and empowering them further in in their ability to engage in the health care system so so uh because nfts can model rich data big data growing data nfts can become personal meaningful they can connect to a person's psychology in a way that something very abstract and dry may not be able to so there's a long way that we have to go with nfts in the healthcare industry but there's really enormous potential in in how how that can work to engage health consumers to educate to gamify um very very interesting work ahead thank you heather thank you very much actually i see in the chat there is a question directly for you if you would like to answer right now or we keep it for for later um the question is from by in scruts to heather i wonder how changed to the ethereum protocol or other public blockchains such as hard forks gas fees fluctuation and bigger updates would impact the functioning of critical health services related operations i'm i'm happy to take that now i'll be brief so i don't take too much air time but uh thank you for the terrific question um as in our in our world we view the ethereum main net as a as a critical neutral backstop in a healthcare future that involves many blockchains and many protocols and the the evolution of the ethereum mainnet through eth 2.0 through zika roll-ups through um many many tactics that are playing out in each 2.0 what we're really looking at is that today's ethereum main net will be one shard of the future ethereum and uh we have many scaling techniques that will allow private private enterprise networks to be hierarchically bridged and tethered up stages to the ultimate uh main net as a backstop and that's without ever without ever storing sensitive health information on a public chain or even a private chain for that matter uh so so the the um models that use uh that use gas fees um need to rely on something called meta transactions and increasingly work that is it needs to be offloaded into bridged or tethered private side chains that can be ephemeral they can simply appear when counterparties wish to do business and be retired when they don't depending on the infrastructure so there's a there's a lot of potential being created at the enterprise ethereum alliance the eth 2.

0 working group is focused on this and we're bringing we're bringing what it means to healthcare into into that working group and also on baseline protocol which is a a a critical open source project that we're contributors to looking at how to use the ethereum mainnet as an enterprise messaging bus so when we talk about tightly coupled off chain we can mean both off private chain and off public chain and and in between in these in these hybrid environments so uh lots of value being created in that area thank you very much heather it was i guess a very exhausting answer from you i will keep the question all for later but i just see that there is one that is for all the panelists so i will address to all of us um and it's by pablo lopez uh what's your opinion about the consideration of common interests of health data for research purpose purpose so you so you have access we have no access to know how there are them being used and for what do you find ethical to receive money from your data from your data this is a very nice question who would like to answer to this maybe i can start um in as you know i'm from a pharma company novartis this is always a big topic how do we get to the data to information and we think that in the future this is this is a good way to get to a lot of information when when we somehow reward in one or the other way um the patients or can or other people to share data for research purposes or for development purposes and i think it's a good return the question is how much and and and what and how look the platform so we have this ideas of this oh no we the the industry um talks a lot about health data markets which is exactly that that you can share or you can put your data there and you get something back for it uh whatever that is that could be money that could be other incentives but the industry is very much interested to get that money and we know also from surveys that a lot of people are interested to share their data if they know something positive is done with that so so we have a lot of feedback especially from patients that are interested in sharing their data so yes this is interesting yes this is a topic and yes this is something to look into it and the ethical point here i guess is i i think it's a win-win because you share your data and in a return you expect as a long longer term something back a new medicine a new solution for helping people so that's just my view on it thank you marco anyone else who would like to ask something over this question proposed by pablo yeah even if if i made something i think that well as i believe what i think that like marco was saying um when and it is for a common interest i think that for i think we we it's a win-win because we as individuals and we as a society we benefit for for sharing this data and for research purposes and finally well in order to to be better because we are getting this this data to to improve uh um any kind of treatment or well you name it um the only thing that i would add to this is that uh we should be very careful about how we are creating these data pools because it's well known that despite the fact that uh we have and there are good ways of an amazing data and and making it pseudonymous or whatever there have been several uh trials well experiments were tested you name it that show that it's very easy to also to anonymize data that there's meant to be anonymous so i would i would just do to make a heads up one yes i think it's it's very um interesting and it's really a win-win but i think we should you should we should take care on how we do implement all these [Music] data tools and how do we create these data sets that are related to each of us just in brief couldn't agree with you more about the the caution through which we need to approach this but we also have to recognize that we have new technology that is changing what's possible so for example data sharing in our industry historically has meant you get copies of data you then custody that data you retain that data you govern that data you incur all the liability and compliance risk related to that data and that nothing can happen in our industry unless you obtain copies of data and you centralize it somehow our family of technologies not only blockchain but converging with confidential computing and federated computing means that it is no longer necessary to share data in order to derive value from data instead we can bring the algorithms to where the data is we can enable data to be computed upon without being exchanged and we can use cryptographic verifications of everything about that data including what jurisdiction what kind of consent and everything along those lines so in the future the need to exchange copies of information copies of data i believe is going to become an exception case and the rule will be computation federated compute that's blockchain facilitated and privacy preserving and we must break out of the mental model that we have right now where we believe that everything is about a data exchange from point to point and it's simply no longer necessary thank you very much very very insightful uh so sting we are talking about the data sharing so uh thinking about this uh what is the best protocol to adapt public or private i'm meaning about this two category uh for healthcare for a more efficient way to implement this solution for covet 19 and verify your credential and sharing the data what is your opinion this is a question open to everyone obviously maybe i'm starting yeah um i think it's not a question whether public or private is the right one it depends on the use cases i think there's a lot of use cases where public is is a need is a must but i can tell you from a farmer lecturer at the moment we we are going more in a hybrid model means for certain use cases we have the situation that we say everyone should have access to the blockchain so no limitation there but we don't want that everyone can write to the blockchain so um so you have then you have to create a kind of onboarding of members in some concrete use case it would say only manufacturers can write new information on it but everyone can read from it and then another reason also why we start more in this model is um the costs uh when we would go let's say for ethereum then there is already costs involved each transaction costs you a bit of gas um in a in a private or a hybrid environment you you control that better and in pharma lecture we also try to be technology agnostic from a blockchain point of view that means if we find out later that a public or another protocol is better we are able to let's say switch let's say in a relative easy way from one technology to another but coming back for me it's not public or private is better it depends on the use case so a lot of enterprise use cases i think they will go in a hybrid private but there are also many others which which i think public is a must thank you marco anyone else would like to share some ideas over this point i will okay uh i agree with marco and uh i would add to that that as the technology is evolving the distinction between public and private and hybrid is itself dissolving and in a couple of years that won't be a meaningful distinction any longer in the way that it is today because our ability to have fine-grained control over multiple layers of the technology is quickly quickly evolving but the there's no there's no doubt that abstraction layers are very important abstraction layers to different hardware dependencies different cryptographic methods different blockchain protocols so so building software that is that is designed for that kind of modularity is super critical right now because our our industry cannot risk being locked in to uh being locked into technology that's not functioning when life and death is on the line so we must you know we're obligated to take those positions yeah thank you very much i would like to add something on this point since uh in blockchain italia we have our new product is my health passport and it aims to give a verifiable credential for covet 19 vaccine and the testing certificate uh so we had this it is a multi across blockchain platform we can integrate with the whether it is private or public blockchain right now we use algorithm which is permissionless and we have been thinking that since we are not uh integrating into any healthcare like an higher perspective such as national or regional we are trying to um it is better to begin with the permissionless block protocol for us since in italy it has a legal value to register the data into the blockchain we actually never register the data clearly but just the hash that is the unique digital fingerprint of the document and this from my point at the beginning to use a permissionless blockchain it can be helpful in the way that it is uh helping the verification itself since we just go on the explorer and you can check that this document was registered by this person at this time and no one can ever uh dubbed off this this is my point over it uh i may add something to this point about the different dlts um i think that maybe i fully agree with with what you said heather and marco i think that it's the strategy of of being resilient and and and being able to to work with whatever technology stack we have under us it's the best way to go that being said well i think that we'll still have some some time to get there and i believe but it's just uh an idea that at the beginning we might see on the short term some permission permission networks uh take the lead on on some use cases and the reason about that i think that it's because of a matter of trust or or fear about the technology you know there are a lot of uh we've been trying to to spin up some some um proof of concept with uh with public administration and and the fact that uh there is a i think i can say that there's a fear of of not controlling no the the idea that you're using uh uh an infrastructure that is not your under your control is something that is pushing back uh i think that some some some players and i think that's one of the good things or well that depends on how you see it about uh this european blockchain service infrastructure that is being uh that is being built in in europe that we by the way we are uh participating to to to develop and and and to deploy it uh i think that this can drive this can be a driver actually the fact that well that the countries at least in europe and member states they are able to get to deploy uh it's a it's a it's on the private it's a permission permission and public blockchain but the idea that they are in control and they are pushing and they are showing that it's possible and that it's doable and it it doesn't hurt when you use it i think it's gonna it's gonna help us but i think it's gonna maybe it's it's needed this this very first step of of showing everybody that it's possible thank you very much savier um so i would like to ask one more question to all of you and it's about what difficulties and barriers you see in your country where you are working to implement this blockchain solution for uh healthcare and covenant 19 issues yeah daniel please go thank you very much um well just because um i originally come from mexico and um we start having a lot of troubles uh in terms of the uh cloning of these kobe 19 certificates specifically for traveling as you may know obviously mexico or mexicans are really into traveling to the united states and and united states citizens are really uh a very uh i mean they visit mexico a lot specifically like cancun and all all over uh other churches right we depend on tourism uh a lot as a country but uh recently we we have had some stories about the cloning and some laboratories report that even one out of five of their coffee 19 test results are being cloned and we just found like in in early february a story of like this is one of the iconic uh stories because it was all over the the news uh 99 students students from argentina uh went to cancun they they had a good time there and then uh in order to return to argentina they had to to have a proof of negative copy 19 test and the bad surprise is that when they arrived to argentina they were tested and the 99 students were positive in in or they had the coffee 19 they were they were sick or at least they were carriers of of the virus so the obviously the question was where did they obtain all that uh kobe 19 and it it turns out that it was a fake laboratory and uh this was a scandal so i just posted the story in the in the in the in the mess in the text uh uh chat of the of the conference if somebody is curious so in february uh four uh we establish a relationship with the first laboratory in mexico to issue uh proof uh temper proof uh uh blockchain certificates so in to to answer your question mexico has been very very generous with us now we we sign with more than 65 laboratories we are integrating with them uh one at a time because they have different systems but now we are uh issuing these uh credentials right this is a laboratory uh cryptographic signature for lab representatives this is only for the the people who who signs these documents who are authorized to sign right so we're giving uh what we call a decentralized laboratory id to them so this is for people who needs to uh sign so we are we are substituting an autograph uh which is can be cloned as an image for a cryptographic signature based on ethereum and uh so they they can sign their own certificates using ginobank's platform and that is preventing obviously it's a qr code and it stamps in the blockchain so it has the signature of the laboratory director it has the ginobank signature it has the timestamp of the test and obviously the result of the test this everything is hashed as you were saying this is not private information in the chain and people just keeps the qr code they can present it at the airport or the point of entry somebody can verify and not even the laboratories keeps this as record i mean so this is a zero copy mode kind of certification genobank holds no information no no personal information blockchain no personal information the laboratories and we believe this is the this is the the way to go we don't want uh governments to have this information we don't want uh airport authorities to have this information we don't want uh enterprise cloud solutions to have these passports uh it's only only a relationship between the laboratory and the patient and no one else and genobank allows this to to do that and so mexico has been now mexico colombia nigeria uh and chile is is uh is uh calling us so we've been very fortunate this is a great job daniel thank you for your answer anyone else would like to answer to to respond to the topic of difficulties and barriers and contradict for the development of blockchain based solution when preparing to deploy some some of these uh related projects is that um well it's a it's a very used and and repeated uh reason but it's still today right which is the interoperability challenge actually i think that we when when dealing with uh this passes or vaccine report or passport or depends on the name that you decided um we like would like that you take can you increase your voice a bit a bit sorry to interrupt you i had no worries maybe i'm a little far away from the microphone let me see so one of the reasons uh are these yeah we want to use these these vaccines or passes um across countries actually so if you get vaccinated or you have a pcr test in in one country where you want to travel so you want that from one country to another it works actually so you start getting into a very complicated um problems of how do you do things and hopefully well there are these different uh supernational organizations like the who and at least in europe now maybe we will have two different ways of doing the same thing and the digital green pass they are proposing okay let's say to do things in in only one way at least so that the same information can travel across countries but even though well we need that everybody accepts and and starts uh implementing the the the solution the same way and i think that's well one of the biggest riskiest uh challenges to to to this um the solutions to be successful and widely widely adopted and useful at the end thank you savvy thank you very much from my side i would like also to comment over this topic since we are implementing this new solution that aims to give the verifiable credential and um okay in italy it's already easier since we have the legal value of the timestamp due to permissionless then the recording over that over on the permissionless blockchain and a very big deal from our side is to to deal with bureaucracy of public healthcare in italy healthcare is public so it is always very long and difficult to to fight this routine let's say and um the solution is needed fastly uh the vaccinations are happening now and um it's it would be very very easier if uh um bureaucracy could be faster and accept such a new technology as a blockchain it is and uh i also think that uh the problem might be the let me use the word ignorance over the blockchain technology of uh people in general uh even a political politician because if they could understand easily what is behind and how blockchain is helping in good for the solution over uh these issues this could be much faster for implementing for any of the protocol actually developed on blockchain uh so i guess we are in uh in time for uh the questions i see we have different could i yeah let's go um i i would like to highlight another category of blocker that our industry faces and that has to do with with financial uh capital formation uh who underwrites risks and and ensures uh these new infrastructures how are these things paid for by whom how do we even forecast the costs in order to create a business case to assemble the capital uh so there there's a if you imagine following on marco's comment that this is a team sport well what the team has to do is abstract from within the enterprises and governments i.t organizations processes that currently live in these splintered ways and bring them up into a new shared infrastructure of which blockchain is probably what maybe 10 or 15 of the total technology stack that needs to be assembled for this new class of infrastructure those team members on that team sport have to determine how they're going to govern that who is going to pay for it who will absorb the risk and liability connected to it and how does that how does that work within every jurisdiction around the world and for global parties that that is an enormous barrier and uh so so as there's if you're new to the blockchain space and you're not a technologist maybe if you're a finance professional or a lawyer you have you have a lot to contribute here as well maybe to add benedicto if um to what half of that we experience now more and more within i mean again i can only speak from of artists the situation that there was a lot of hype the last couple of years not only blockchain also ai and the management especially the cena management a lot of promises went to them and they say now very easy prove it show it and in blockchain we have a little bit of a problem if we comment saying give us a few millions and they say okay and then what yeah okay it's a new technology i'm not sure if it's working that's not very convincing it's the time where we have to show it that the promises we did in the last couple of years that they are somehow fulfilled it doesn't matter of the technology for senior management just show it prove it and that's why i think solutions like this genobank are very interesting because here we can say look it works there is the first thing out there it works and that is helpful because at the end of the day no one will change all the existing infrastructure processes people institution just for a few percentage we have also to show them it's a magnitude it's 10 times better whatever faster cheaper whatever it is it needs something where we can show that um the investment the risk you go for it that this is worth it for one two or five percent no one will take it the whole supply chain infrastructure i mean the process is no one will change that for a few percentage but for a magnitude of 10 times yes they are willing but we have to prove it and the genobank is a good example it works now let's do the other things thank you marco thank you header i will move to the question now uh if you all agree uh so i see there is one for daniel uh maybe you answered already in your talks before but uh from by javier how do you deal with the personal data privacy on blockchain this is for you danielle yes thank you very much so we we believe again in the gdpr uh kind of framework so we minimize the data so this like for instance this uh i mean first in the case of the genetic test we only tokenize 96 snips remember that usually a human has between four and five million snips right i am talking about genetic variants so we only use 96 nips this approach is done by the industry in order to fingerprint our dna fingerprint biosamples so by all means we do not intend to use this technology to identify human humans but we want humans to identify their biosamples and their biosample data using the minimum genetic information is is a small uh it's a very very small uh finger uh sample from snips from genetic data nevertheless we hashed we hash it and we use zero knowledge proofs in order to and bloom filters in order to preserve the privacy of this even small fingerprint so we we never will print uh your your sequence or your snips on the on the blockchain that would be super bad for for privacy um and then in the copy 19 test we only again we only uh hash the document so it's it's very similar approach from other other projects like for instance from from a validated id from xavier and obviously the data is is sophisticated and it's not shown in the in the transaction so jinderbank only references transactions and uh the data is only uh cross between the patient and the laboratory as today i mean it's it's a very private relationship and it's very protected and very regulated all around the world so we have small concerns uh there we have concerns if this uh information is starting to be shared with governments and airlines which uh some of the projects once or or i've heard maybe i need to learn a little bit more but uh that that wouldn't be a a good idea in my opinion or as a citizen right to start sharing this information thank you daniel i'm sure you answered the question very [Music] very good uh i have i see another question here i guess is for everyone uh by claudia polimanti creating our digital twin is it going to give us more freedom or the other way around interesting question who wants to answer [Music] okay okay i'll try to be really really quick uh i think that we have a massive risk uh of of governmental or corporate hegemony over you know over the ability to control uh to control humanity in ways that we don't wish it means that we we must pursue uh systems of self-sovereignty at the same time that this technology is evolving and also that means the ability for custodial relationships delegations of authorities it means that there are new institutions that don't presently lead to that don't presently exist today that will need to come into being in order to correct the asymmetry of power between individuals and large bureaucracies and uh we need to be extremely careful as we proceed yeah thank you heather um i see a question for savier you we have a few minutes if you want to answer fastly uh how does validated that the wallet wallet works it's by daniel salmeron okay well nice question um well it works as most of the ssi wallets that you might find out in the market so the idea is that you have you can have several keys that are uh that you control on on the wallet and the idea that you can store what what we call uh verifiable credentials for those that do not know what uh suffering self-sovereign identity is and then the idea is that you um that you keep um credentials with claims that third parties do about uh tell about yourself and and and you're able to well keep it private nobody else has had access to it and encrypted and then you just decide what do you want to share uh when you're interacting usually it's in a digital way but it's uh that can be triggered in a physical in in a physical interaction when maybe when you're going through a boarding gate and somebody is asking you to share your your covet credentials for instance and then you decide how and what information uh do you want to share so the idea is that like in crypto you have these crypto wallets that you control what happens with your with your money the idea is that these ssi will do the same thank you very much savior i'm seeing in the chat we have many comments of thank you and compliments for all of you speakers i want to thank victoria for having us on this panel this was a very great opportunity to know all of us better and share and thanks for you speakers for sharing your knowledge and experiences over time i guess we are we are about to close uh so let me check uh okay there is one more question i can read it fastly uh by celine by building solutions like blockchain health passports are you not contributing to restricting people freedom to travel cold like to answer very very very quickly i think that yes and no it's a trigger question but i think that the the benefits um are much higher than than the risks and i think that there are risks of course that uh there we some events uh that leads to people to to coerce their their freedom but i would add that if we are if we start doing this the time that everybody is able to access their to a vaccine i think that we we we all win it's a win-win actually because we can travel and we are protecting our health as a as a community actually thank you again again um i i guess we are about to finish so thank you daniel thank you marco thank you heather thanks victoria again for letting us being part of this very interesting panel [Music] i i guess everyone can reach us for us more information and anything they would like more to know about our companies and products and wish you all the best let's hope to solve this problem and help the world by our technology and thank you very much [Music] bye bye you