How Institutional Investors Get Access to DeFi

[Music] this time we're going to talk about how institutional investors can get access to d5 we have three experts here and a very very great moderator shiraz two moderator panels so shiraz i'll give the word to you and enjoy the panel discussion thank you so much uh victoria it's a pleasure to be back the european blockchain uh convention uh it's really incredible events i hope you've been enjoying everything uh thus far we have a great uh panel for you uh here today 45 minutes uh we will try to take some questions as well so feel free to put those uh in the chat um i'll be your moderator uh today um my name is ahmed i am the head of business development and co-executive director of the crypto valley association and the managing partner of storm partners um today uh we have those three uh very special guests who i think i will let them each individually uh introduce themselves and today the topic of discussion will be how can institutional investors get access to defy um so maybe uh philip your first one on my screen uh here would you like to kick us off by giving a little intro uh to yourself uh sure yeah so i'm uh philip piper i'm the co-founder of a company called sport markets um i've been in the so in my past life i was in institutions like deutsche bank and alliance group then becoming a tech entrepreneur i did several uh startups that you know i brought to silicon valley and then was there for 10 years and at the sort of end of that i was starting to get into uh decentralized technologies which at then at the time was not yet named in coin crypto um and then sort of you know stumbled into that space in 2016 and 17. um did a dao which is called swarm market or storm network which was one of the first like um premier projects in uh security token landscape um and was always like you know embedded into trying to resolve like you know compliance technology merged with you know different ways how to do that still in decentralized fashion so uh we started supermarkets two years ago um we're just actually just becoming sort of public a little over a couple months ago um yeah and so it's it's been a pretty interesting uh market to say the least definitely really looking forward to keep dying a little bit more into interstellar markets and some of the yeah uh what you've been doing there um maybe next up uh chris uh would like to introduce yourself as well sure chris sullivan co-founder and pm for hyperion decimus uh we run a fund called lyritas and it's a quantum multi-strat we were kind of the first similar to philip uh in the space first movers to run masternode staking all the way back in 2018 uh first option contract on bitcoin um so we've kind of pushed the envelope within our mandates i'm a chartered market technician cut my teeth at morgan stanley basically ran a ball fund for about a decade before jumping in full tilt to crypto which uh took place in 2018 been a personal investor since 2013 and basically couldn't be more all in uh both philosophically ethically and from an investment standpoint that's it chris thank you so much and of course uh last but not least loan would you like to introduce yourself yeah so lauren schroeder i'm the ceo of concoction and um concocotium is a blockchain we are a layer 1 blockchain with id built in at the protocol level which fits very nicely with the new demands from regulators in terms of d5 i'll tell more about that we also my background is from banks i've worked for cadiz swiss i've worked for saxo bank which was the first platform actually client number 100 at the internet our founder founded saxo bank and i've worked with other institutional banks and also with systemic important banks with regulators most of my life and what we are doing with our blockchain is to have a blockchain which is fitted for the regulation and meeting the regulators demand as you see they're coming heavily in now fantastic thank you so much i mean it's very interesting uh point that you mentioned quite a few times regulation regulators right i mean the d5 being here for a few years now i think at the beginning of defining kind of would we have ever seen kind of regulation being so close to it it seemed a little bit like the antithesis um at some point and now we have philip uh here in small markets being the world's first regulated defy exchange um can you tell us more about this and also maybe a little interlude into why uh you chose often uh to be regulated okay so first of all choosing a regulation is not something that you just choose it's uh it's it's it's more organic than that right so i'll answer that question in a little more uh you know talking about the context here so um to us like we came out of more from the you know the security token angle initially which was effectively saying you know the simple answer the answer simple uh uh question just say why tokenize you know it's it's it's always the question like like has a lot to do with how to actually have liquidity at the end of the day so liquidity is incredibly important to have the exchangeability of the units that you produce as a digital asset version um you know any kind of you know benefit that you quote with regards to security tokens always has to do with the fact that there is a market that there is fractionalization that there is 24 7 trade abilities so for the longest time we were rooting from the sidelines to players like open finance and t0 to really create those markets and make that a pleasurable experience that actually really leverages the blockchain to its core um unfortunately that didn't didn't unfold the way that we hoped it to unfold so you know along the way we effectively said okay what's how how can we help create these markets so um we were then you know exploring effectively different regulatory environments um america was becoming really difficult because it was a you know multi-dimensional um regulatory challenge at that point in time and we saw like across europe we saw a lot more forward-leaning attitudes towards the concept of using blockchains for financial instruments um so we're engaged in different um you know regulatory environments including liechtenstein switzerland you know jersey you know the uk and so forth um so my background i'm actually german uh where you know the last place on earth that i thought would actually move in this direction and do something innovative was actually germany but then to our biggest surprise actually that in the end of 2019 actually um the german government uh introduced legislation around amending the the banking act in germany which um actually defined a lot of the crypto assets as financial instruments which then had the sort of conclusion effect that saying any kind of you know service provider which touches those actually has to have a full banking license of some kind and we were then actually saying okay this is this is actually not bad news like a lot of people actually perceived it but we found it to be incredibly good news because it clarified that role of us as an organization of organizations like us to deal with these kind of assets and it also clarified how the financial ecosystem would see us so to us the the choice there and there's other competing like regulatory environments that you know you could almost claim that do do similar interesting things but to us the trade-off of having a scalable large regulatory environment that has a reputation you know and and embedded into a larger european market um paired with the understanding of the regulator that there is something here that they want to positively sort of enforce um was a good mix so um ever since it's been obviously a ride i mean like everyone engaging in regulatory processes uh it takes a huge amount of effort to get through that process um but so far it's been an incredibly good experience to get to these milestones that we've been able to achieve and i think honestly i think the the next 12 to 24 months not just in germany but overall there's with all that clarification happening there's a really a big unlocking of what the blockchain can do for financial instruments in general but even for crypto and in more specific areas yes oh definitely i 100 agree especially when you look at uh switzerland as jurisdiction as well as you mentioned i mean they just brought out uh primary issuance off-security tokens in the first security token exchange sdx to be licensed very very soon so it's very very exciting uh space well maybe to bounce off of what you what you said um chris i mean do you believe that we need uh regulation to allow access to institutional investors and maybe you can give us some insights on what your clients uh think about you know i think that the first layer of regulation is supposed to prevent investor loss by a fraud right unfortunately we've seen time and time again it pretty much never does that in the public traditional finance markets so it's really for the community i'm sure phil would echo this is a set of guidelines where we can operate businesses and expand the breadth of services and products as well as you know what i do which is invest in those products and services um i think we do need the framework structurally business bank rails all that stuff does need to be outlined and have a lot of transparency europe's actually quite forward thinking um i agree with pretty much all of it um i'm not a massive fan of stable points i actually like the way they they classify them um but it's just interesting from a institutional perspective because they're looking for rules and engagements to access the markets and they're really not going to ever be able to write them in a way that's going to make everybody go all in in my opinion um i think you know as far as european regulators i'm not as familiar as i am with u.s u.s typically rule for precedence so you're going to see bad actors get uncovered for a plethora of reasons and that's where the precedence and then the legislation that will come behind that will have a genesis um so from our perspective it's kind of stayed you know nimble and diversified because certain protocols um may not have the audit strength that others do and i think when you're looking at the space as a utility itself that sort of puts you in a more investment grade echelon and from our experience with institutions that's what what's willing they're willing to take a look at first i see wow wonderful and i mean building on top of that uh lone concordia and i think our audience very very curious as well i mean you're building on a lot of this regulatory path and being an ideal layer one two and which where you're going to buy ease regulatory compliance i mean can you tell more um to our audience a little bit about your process of of this and how it first came yeah so i'll quickly um just touch upon the narrative our offerings on concoction with this idea at the protocol level that means that anybody who wants to transact on concocotium are id'd this is creating trust between the parties one of the biggest problems remember in the world is lack of trust which is costing as much as 45 of gdp worldwide so the trust is there you know who you are transacting with the other thing is that if the regulators want to reveal who have done what at what point in time all transactions comes with this id stamp encrypted so we we are creating trust uh but we keep the privacy so that's a co-fundament um we have other things which are needed in order to um to create um substantial um and institutionalized product like a stable and low transaction fee stable in europe but denominated in our ccd which is our token but again you would know and as you know when you have worked in in banking transactions fees are going towards zero and this is how it it should be so there's nothing i have seen in in the couple of years i've been in the blockchain space which is surprisingly regulation are coming in naturally because um i i don't see the blockchain space any different it's just a new technology and it's decentralized and you have a lot of benefits in it one of our advisors michael jackson was reminding me but remember it's just like now we see sit here at zoom but we still use the telephone companies um say lines in order to provide our wi-fi we just paid differently now so if you go back to this could have been a call in the old days where you're paying for the call now we pay for the line and i think you can compare actually the uh defy a little bit to that that's just a new way to to actually um transact it's it's the infrastructure system which is different providing a lot of benefits but um regulation is is exactly the same it's coming in europe remember now we will have the aml demands uh will not have the possibility to be anonymous and also the the um um the the method is now for for for for whatever was not covered in with it so to protect the um the users um are also coming into um to the blockchain space so i i don't think it's it's it's surprisingly but it's difficult because you have a lot of startups and if you know how much some large institutional organization are spending on the whole compliance regime that's also moving into um to blockchain so what we have done in concluding is to launch a regulated decentralized finance laboratory and we invite anybody to participate with uh added a good part of our genesis token to this hundred million uh euro worth of of grants so um whoever from the say institutional side from from the crypto environment from blockchain please join us uh in our cyric lab so we can enjoy the big big benefits of the decentralization and building that in a safe manner for for the users fantastic oh thank you so much a very interesting metaphor there with the with the phones uh the phone lines um and and so if we continue on on the structural point that you're mentioning and more specifically uh transactions um with small markets um i i saw on your website it's defined as a high liquidity d5 protocol i mean can we talk about the importance of liquidity um in this market i mean liquid liquidity is what everything's building on right in the trading space you know we're not talking about nfts right now on on sort of you know but even nfts you know they they have a disadvantage because they're not as liquid so you have sometimes like these spreads of you know 30 to 50 percent in nfts because there's not the efficient market to bring it all together and um you know i think and we didn't initially you know think about d5 as much but suddenly d5 took its uh path last year and you know what what i think d5 has really brought together is just this composability uh paired with the sort of network liquidity so in a way you know number one asset owners themselves can be become part of providing liquidity which is a very unique concept when it comes to comparing it to traditional financial markets um and then you know benefit from actually doing that so there's you know something that you know suddenly comes from a professional environment of professional market makers doing that into actually some realm that is actually less sophisticated and actually you know provides you know similar value um but the second piece is that you can actually have the the asset holders themselves then suddenly start to build their market and not every asset is high liquidity to start off with but you have to advance and graduate into the later stages so you start off with things that you know really the the initial investors the initial holders really care about that send then gradually grow into wider groups of people and then you know obviously the high liquidity market in the end is what you know then everyone knows of there's a more commodity around it and there's obviously a very big depth of liquidity that is provided there but i think that that kind of progression um can actually be done really really well with the programmatic environment that d5 provides right and so um we'll see actually much more of those tools than be applied to you know even off-chain assets that you know so far are not playing a big role in in the d5 ecosystem but the crypto assets had as they've been tested in d5 have been sort of a really good testbed to see you know what is a successful tool to apply and what is something that probably falls by the wayside either because it's too complicated or it's actually something that you know didn't instill trust or wasn't actually learned by the end consumer as well thank you i think that inclusivity part is really um yeah it's the nail on on the head for uh for me there but um chris we actually have a question from the audience which i think interjects quite well here is is what are institutional investors not allowed to do in the space um do you have some thoughts in mind yeah the where there's gray area is where these things are securities right and so within the three main ecosystems in d5 what they can invest in lending or collateralized funding you know that really i can't argue that it's not a security right so i think they're looking for clarity there because obviously part of their impetus for looking at it is the hunter yield a lot of pensions and endowments have obligations they have to meet and with interest rates and dividends so low they have to look for something to pay their constituents um so i think the the where it's on the ledge is whether there's clarity on this collateralized you know instrument is a security as defined by blah blah blah act for the act 30 act et cetera 34x um that's really the hang up that we're seeing as far as you know trading of like the platform tokens like either swapper copper ave they're indifferent to that and they think that that's one way to participate in it but it's really focused on real generation um automated market making is totally great they're not very interested in doing that because it's too confusing so it's mainly on the lending side good question though thank you i don't think thank you thank you just to interject one more piece running nodes and then participating staking pools they're just kind of coming around to because the concept of lending is easy for all of us to understand validating the transaction getting paid in the native token is a little further out on the curve for them at present but to me it's still compounding of a finite asset so i i love that strategy fantastic that's definitely coming pablo i hope that answers uh your your question uh um there and um for forward a little bit more i mean uh longer your protocol is definitely attracting a different type of audience right and the kind of the d5 degens that we see around us sometimes i mean tell us more about how your adoption has been thus far you mentioned kind of open grants and some of the things that you're offering i mean can you tell us more about how it's been accepted yeah so we just launched on the mainnet um this summer and um we haven't our token list that yet that will come first thing uh in the new year so it's still a very very new um protocol but the amount of um attentions we have received just in in in the latest weeks after we launched the uh regulated decentralized fintech lab but also during the weekend we launched because we also have to have some fun it's difficult i'll just jump a little bit on your question because i spoke to um jb who is one of the tesla founders and about creating excitement because i i sit at the board i'm the vice chairman for valbo so how do you create excitement like a tesla evaluation is is really interesting for all oems but also when we now work in the decentralized fintech space regulation is not really creating excitement so we talked about creating excitement so we also want to have some fun in concordia we always talk about our regulatory um compliance and readiness so we launched this weekend with mounis carlson um chest nfts on concoction and that also got a massive response so we also want to use um our blockchain for um gaming and finance and all that but always with the it the id in mind so i think taking care of people and do things um very safely that is at least one thing i missed coming into blockchain and crypto is how can you if you want to do things good and i mean i represent also valvo i represent the key on their boat so um i don't want to be in the white west i want to do something i can put my name behind and this is back to what we offer that is to create trust and that you can do things in the safe environment that to my surprise because it's not only it's two years ago i i i was sitting in new york when you could still traveling in from scandinavia to new york and other worlds but i was sitting with a um bitcoin maximalist and first he didn't want to speak with me because i was representing concoction with id at the protocol level but then he understood i was scandinavian so that was nearly being a liberalist so we we got a coffee together and um and i think we have moved a long way since that was say hardly acceptable that everybody now understand regulation is here but as chris also said it's super confusing for people what do you have to to just the um definition of your token is different if you are in a different um legislation environment so it's very confusing europe have its rules switzerland have its rules if you're moving cross border or even if you're in the u.s so it's it's back to unfortunately the bad news is it's exactly as it is for for for banks and other regulated financial institutions the good news is that regulators are really working we have the sixth um eu directive coming in we have the new mecca rules coming into to europe the regulators are really working very fast in order to create clarity and i think clarity is just what you need so we see excitement that is my answer to your question fantastic thing thank you so much and what are your taglines being science meets businesses is a really uh intriguing one as well and i just want to kind of continue on the line i thought that that you had there with regards to excitement right and and and the kind of the blurred lines where we see a lot of uh companies try to push excitement right you mentioned tesla but also in the crypto world i mean where is that kind of the the border where you cross over between like excitement and maybe not lying but maybe kind of let's say abusing or of the truth is there some way where you can create enough excitement nowadays in the crypto space without kind of going off the edge i i think if you're going like um the other way around we have our cto is tobin peterson so he made the peterson commitment which is one of of of the fundaments we're building into our blockchains and also we have professor evan damko who made the dumb go merkel so they are so say i say it with all my love notes that it's really becoming exciting so i think that nerdy excitement is what we want to create but then when we say we have um where science meets um meet some enterprises for example we want to we have our white paper and when you read the white paper and when you read our code you should really recognize our white paper our cryptographic proofs which is all science-based peer-reviewed protocols you should be able to recognize that in the code and that is what we are providing so it when you read that it's not a hobby project so there's a lot out there and that's funny and it's interesting to see and people are ever so innovative we're taking from this we're taking from science but ours enterprise great so you can't build in something where you have backdoors where it's breaking down for example we have finality immediately finality so we have the consensus but also finality of course it's important because most people don't think about if you have a probabilistic blockchain like bitcoin likely serum it's not it's never theoretically it's never 100 finalized and you have a certain set of blocks before you can most likely think that it's finalized if you want to use it for for say things which um is going to to to work also for financial institution these are the things you need to build in like our finalization like the low transactions fee like everything is going towards now software certification our applications also out of our decentralized fintech lab will also be upgraded so we will we will have um a certain say quality step on like you see on the twitter account so stamp we will have that stamp on on the application and and reference protocol so people know what they're using because there's a lot which is just it's just test and trying but i learned that also from working with volvo we all also want to test but we don't put a car in the street which doesn't work you have to have a certain level of of trust um when you do things where people are relying on your software fantastic very very well said and that actually jumps on to to the next actually topic that we have today which is uh trust right and and we were discussing a little bit about this right that trust and more importantly first party trust uh is is is the future um and actually uh for from your or your website as well uh small markets uh make every effort to be as trustless as possible and then i'd love for you to be able to comment for our audience today on what trustless means because i've spoken actually to some people what trust is it like no but it needs to be trusted so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about this yeah so the concept of trustlessness means that you don't have to trust a centralized body or a person in order to have trust in the system which means that you can be completely absent of any trust in hoping to actually get what you expect from the system out of it right so the you know in in crypto the sort of trustless nature is that you have the immediacy of what you're doing it's your responsibility to hold the private key you have to say what that private key executes and what what it does with your assets um and so that's been been there since the beginning of actually sort of blockchain playing a role i think what uh d5 has expanded on here is that basically the you you don't have to move your assets to as any centralized body even a centralized crypto exchange in order to actually benefit from you know the transactional ability you can allow you know mechanisms to come to your wallet to execute within your wallet and have full control along the way what you do so this is generally a concept called uh self-custody um and basically self-sovereignty in your in your decision-making right um so i think this is a foundational concept because suddenly you don't have to divvy up your assets and sort of make sure that they go to other institutions in the banking landscape or in the fintech landscape but you actually can work on that kind of control on that permission um as a end consumer and then decide whether you want the help of others to help you with the i would call it first party distrust where you may not trust yourself with a responsibility to hold the private key you may actually need you know tools or mechanisms to help you manage that trust to have a recoverability of the of the wallet etc right so when when we say you know we as a regulated or licensed um platform we we want to be as trustless as possible which means we want to preserve these aspects of what actually has been the key element and the design factor of actually making d5 successful while still satisfying the need of the regulatory bodies to actually have that kind of you know access control in you know who gets to do what um with what kind of assets with what kind of methodologies right um because because that is a necessity and everyone and to chris's point earlier about like what institutional investors cannot engage in it's less about the counterparty risk in terms of like knowing the counterparty in this ecosystem because you know that is pretty much smart contract base that follows full transparency what it does however mean is that you don't necessarily know who the other parties are on the other end of the transaction so it's more an aml and um you know sort of money laundry aspect than it is about the um you know knowledge or the assessment whether something's going to successfully execute so when you look at fat f and the travel rule and everything coming into the space in terms of the necessity of knowing two parties within a certain transaction i think that's where it starts and and actually should end so we as a playground want to preserve the ability to create money legos that are maybe new to the dfa ecosystem in order to have people within that ecosystem still program themselves you know the ability to actually compose different products um and then at the end still have the full control over their wallet actions rather us meaning sort of being an intermediary trying to create some part of that control and being able to you know influence that control um so it is about actually preserving those elements which are quite key to the success of d5 thank you thank you so much and um because we continue the topic of trust um there you know we were discussing a little bit about these d5 scoring systems that you've created and fact sheets etc does this help to bring more more trust inverse right the point of it is as philip said and and the standards that that we're all seeking to make transparent to everybody you don't want to end up needing trust right uh one of the key elements in my opinion is for the pricing oracle is located if it's decentralized because if you're familiar with auditing the mempool there's some shenanigans that can happen in between there and there's latencies you know we come from kind of the hft background there are latencies and so that tech is very similar to what we you know we're used to on my team so i think what we're looking at when we're scoring and rating these things are maximum open source time on main net we want to see everything from the keys as philip said where you want to have time without timelock right and who's whose permission what parties have commission lists and basically get to the point where you're literally just taking no platform risk no smart contract list to the degree that that's even possible and we've seen enough events where folks like all of us on this call took the risk of you know putting our money in these different rabbit holes right seeing if the smart contracts work in a panic and i think may 17th was the exact day where i'm auditing all the combination music solution like wow that every smart contract was perfect to the penny with the auto liquidations so i think then it gets down to tokenomics and taxonomy uh for me i i like participating in anything that's utilitarian right so if we're providing liquidity as a hedge fund you know what's the reward for the space and then what's our reward for doing that right what's the depth like and i think when you're looking at it from that perspective you can get to the point where the tech is auditable and permissionless as well as trustless right and that sort of narrows it to really about 25 of the existing infrastructure in my opinion no longer needing trust it feels a little bit uh yeah uh yeah there's a little kind of um friction there but i think it's it seems uh that natural in it in a way yeah the concept isn't a fun one to talk about but the reality of it is that the point of blockchain is to dehuman everything right take that risk out of it human is the risk and then what's going to take you down you're literally only taking two to other kinds of a smart contract with some price risk and on finite assets is price really a risk right so wow unless again maybe following that point i mean um you're you just had a new announcement quite quite interesting one uh integrating wallet connect uh which part part of it includes uh ledger live access to 1.

5 million people um and custody has an element of risk to it as well to keep these people's uh assets ditch like future proof essentially i mean uh would you talk to us about that side um or the trusted part and and can we grow uh in adoption through these type of partnerships uh as well yeah so um i i think there's first of all like it's an extension to what i previously said i think the the self-custody is a big deal so the self-custody is not just you know trying to empower individuals but it's also um it's a way to empower the entire tool sets that have been created to to help the ecosystem and one of those tool sets for example on the professional custody side is actually professional custody environments which means that you know pretty much everyone who's on the professional side engaged in the space has you know so far chosen their professional custody environment and you know they are finding ways from those for the evolution of those products to then connect with d5 protocols as well on the other side which means that you know what's happened there is that basically it's it's figured out how to do multi-party computing it's actually figured out how to do multi-signatures how to rely sort of professional um institutional grade decision processes and have that being replicated on that kind of wallet signing infrastructure which is a big deal it's a really really difficult process for professional engaged parties to figure that out and actually sort of have that instilled into a process that everyone feels comfortable around so for us as was a you know existential you know thing to figure out that that can feed into those existing decisions and we wouldn't like expect that anyone would have to redefine that in order to participate in the tools and the solutions that we would bring to the table um so when we when we just announced sort of the the connection with wally connect and obviously ledger being sort of a key part of that you know i think that's the same story right where effectively there's you know a huge amount of people that have made a decision that ledger in some shape and form is what they want to trust um and they're using that on on different ways either directly or through ledger live and they have certain desires to deploy whatever is in those custody environments in their own custody environments to then be able sort of to extend that in a safe fashion so that the assets don't get tainted along the way and secondly because we are what we are we can actually sort of introduce securities into that aspect as well so you suddenly have a unified view using the same tools you have a unified view to actually you know use it on crypto assets on defy assets on you know things that you're already comfortable with in the crypto space but then actually expand that into other parts of the of the value ecosystem as well so we'll see a massive amount of migration of you know existing value onto this internet of value which is web3 and part of that key is you know the existing tool sets that people have already made decisions on fantastic thank you thank you so much and although it's rather unfortunate we do only have five uh minutes left here so does it look to give you a little bit of time uh to kind of conclude and and how do you see actually the defy space uh looking uh five years down the line ten years or even one year down the line if things move so so quickly i mean what are your thoughts yeah so i think um we will see a matureness we talk now about also um all the the the software whether it's safe etc i think the short answer is people simply don't know there are too many who doesn't understand so it's test and try and there's been a lot of say um maybe pocket money you have used for it but are you still need to see that things are really being tested um there are two kind of of tests that you trust the smart contracts that they are doing what you actually want them to do but also that um there are kind of um no uh flaws in in in the system so several levels of test and and uh and trust and i also think the um established financial institution have a big thing to play here i think you'll see them moving massively in when the regulation comes into place now and they know what they have to deal with because consumers are used to that you can trust your money to them yes you might lose on the product but you're not losing your money that would be all kind of um insurances you do see that and some of the custodian wallets etc so there'll be new products and i think the next couple of years is that things will organize themselves you'll see the rating systems um coming in you will you will see a kind of a morning star system also coming into the crypto space so i i think the short answer is you see everything you know from the established uh financial world you'll see that coming in in the decentralized world and there we can use and and really enjoy for the benefit of the users in the very end you will see that everything will be more mature but you will see and that also today you see the high returns but you know in any mature market returns are and margins are being smaller but i think we'll see the big benefit but it would be like one world now we talk about it as if it's two worlds it would be one world so yeah hopefully some of those benefits of what's going on in the traditional financial world don't bring some all of the weaknesses uh with it as well but i'm happy to hear your thoughts chris uh if you have some final uh closing words for us today you know i'll respond real quick i saw a question pop up and technically you know private hedge fund is an institution i i always think institutional investors are you know pensions endowments funder funds etc uh banks but from our perspective as an institution where we're more limited in terms of accessing d5 is really the chain of the money right and then philip accurately pointed out where there's not a wise aml edited in some of the chips or contracts those are the two sort of shields that our auditors our lawyers that prevent us from from accessing but any of the major ones that you're aware of like top five venues we can't do things like you know dino swap and very exotic hilariously marketed uh venues but anything that's auditable that can sit in a ledger metamask those are things that we can participate in and and by by way of me doing it that means pretty much every institution should be doing it yeah so some maybe two thoughts i think d5 will be fi um you know and and i'm betting my career on it because i think that what we're seeing right now is that a lot of the banking institutions are seeing um that the way that these unilateral silos are built they're not made actually for the interconnectivity that actually today's modern financial ecosystem is deserving right so composability is not a small word it's a big big word to say that if you have the entry points of these you know asset classes being sort of money legos in some ways and then having the composability for anyone who knows how how to build successful financial products on top of it you know it should be just a way to program these objects with one another right and it by doing that you suddenly have a revolution that you know creates efficiencies for existing financial players that are you know still very hard to sort of get wrap your head around but you could have usage funds you know have enforce the category engagement in certain asset classes by doing that programmatically that's a traditional financial player enforcing whatever they promised to their investors using code right and so i think what's going to happen is is to make that happen and there's three things that have to happen one is there's a clarification of regulatory things that which we're coming to a sort of better station state with but then it's actually stripping away complexities on the user front which lorna was referring to which basically is the success is going to come when we don't know that we're using the blockchain right the other part is that actually this trustless nature is going to grow into other layers of the stack which means you know in the end introducing real world assets into you know a chain environment will have to not rely on on people and and dependencies but actually has to be as trustless as possible and then these this composability will unfold so i think in that trifecta we're making strides in terms of progress and it's going to go faster than people than expected to happen um but it's going to be a pretty big revolution of the entire financial ecosystem which so far has been built around very siloed ecosystems but remember you can pre-verify and you can pre-validate and that's the two key words and this is why it's working for regulators this is why it's working for banks so with with that i i will end my remark as you say d5 will be fine i fully agree lovely closing where it's um you're pleasant about how to use a metamask wallet to everybody i think that's very important when you get the apparatus itself um and invite more parts of spitzer great wonderful well you you can reach out to our panelists here today if you want to learn how to uh operate your metamask i feel like chris i will definitely be there to help you and uh on that note thank you so much uh to all the audience and everyone for for being here and participating and i'll leave you uh all to the next panel of the day victoria off to you thank you so much thank you lun thank you chris and philip very exciting panel discussion and yeah i also agree that d5 will just be fire in the future i don't know i think the first time i heard it was several months ago uh joseph lubin said it i'm not sure if he was the first one to say it but like oh that's smart yeah that's true d5 is just gonna be fine in the future so yeah thank you very much for an exciting panel discussion and to the audience thank you for joining thank you for the questions and reach out to them as well you can reach out to lone and concordia in the in the sponsor area and to chris and philip via the people tap and to share us as well again thank you guys and we'll continue now with the next talk see you in a bit nice thank you all right bye-bye bye-bye