How Asset Managers Are Redesigning Their Business Model For an Onchain World | EBC12

Let's start. We have someone who works. So someone who works. So , thank you very much for coming to this panel. I'll try to keep the introduction quick so we can get to the point and talk about what's really important.

A quick introduction about myself, uh, I fell down the rabbit hole ten years ago, worked in this industry for over 10 years. A lot of it was about tracking, supply chains, then it turned into venture capital. So, I did this for 5 years. Over the years, I have seen thousands upon thousands of different very interesting DeFi projects. Uh, I left the rabbit hole and now I dedicate all my time to the Northern Blockchain Northern Blockchain Association.

We have been in existence for over 10 years. Our focus is on education. Uh, there is a regulatory scene that needs to be updated for the new world of blockchain. There are policies that need to be updated. Of course, there are industries like TradFi, traditional banks.

So we really try to focus on those kinds of discussions, which means we'll also try to differentiate between TradFi and DeFi, and talk about what that means from a traditional perspective. Before I pass, I'll mention again that we talked about TradFi, DeFi, maybe in 5 years it will just be financing. But I think the interesting discussion here is that you have an off-the-shelf model where the asset manager wraps the product, distributes it, sells it, gets some management fee, some success fee. Then you have the DeFi Then you have the DeFi side, where everything is on the blockchain. You have everything on the blockchain, and you have a lot more products than in the traditional asset management space.

And now we see how it merges. And these are the topics for discussion that we want to have today. So, I'm handing it over to you, and please give a good presentation. Uh , yes, hello. Kevin, you are the Head of Institutional Cryptocurrencies at Swissquote Bank Europe.

So, I'm just here to discuss and explain a little bit why we decided to invest in this technology and why we decided to focus on a few customers. So, essentially, we have been a bank since 1999 with two banks, one in Switzerland and the other in Luxembourg. And we provide trading and custody solutions for institutional clients, asset management firms and family offices, as well as retail clients. And we mainly offer trading and custody solutions for cryptocurrency, as well as lending. And we mainly think that it's a really good product, and the reason why we decided to move forward is not only because we believed in the technology, but also because there were three use cases, and the fact that we had to follow the trends in order to be follow the trends in order to be able to serve our customers.

Hi, I'm Germano Di Parent, part of KBW. So, we are an investment bank investment bank specializing in financial services, one of the largest, and we have been working in the digital asset space for about 10 years, because we do banking, in particular, in the US and Europe. And we got into this area because we supported our clients, banks our clients, banks , who were acquiring and considering expanding their operations in the digital asset industry. So, we got into this area and now we support our clients in fundraising, mergers and acquisitions, IPOs. Uh, and we see blockchain technology as the most interesting tool for the development of an entire subsegment of the financial industry.

I'm really excited about this sub-segment that looks at asset management and online financing. Good morning. My name is Gerald David. I am JD. Hmm, it's nice to be here, and I think the prism through which I can speak today is that I'm the president and advisor of one of the first digital asset managers.

Um, we founded the company in 2018 and then created our first, um, SEC-registered asset management product in 2020 . Hmm, so we've seen the full lifecycle, you know lifecycle, you know , working with regulators, trying to understand what the rules look like, creating a regulatory compliant path to go ahead and offer the product. Hmm, and just recently we took a second fund, including it in the settlement tier settlement tier , where we actually use money market fund shares to use them as good collateral for exchanges, as a settlement tier, and a few other different use cases. So, I look forward to meeting everyone today and having a discussion. Hello everyone.

My name is Patrick Bjorklunds. I am an innovation strategist at Janus Henderson Investors. I am a traditional asset manager who has started to really dive into the tokenized blockchain space over the last few years. We blockchain space over the last few years. We , um, we firmly believe that most, if not all, financial services will transition to blockchain in a timeframe to be determined later.

Um determined later. Um , given that these terms are somewhat vague by definition, it can be difficult to develop a coherent business strategy around this. So, we have a strategy that we call blockchain readiness, which is actually, um, based on three pillars. The first is tokenizing our funds, which makes sense considering we are an asset manager. And we've had some success with live funds since 2024 and approximately $1.

6 billion in assets under management at this point. The second aspect point. The second aspect we are looking at is how we can make our operations more efficient using blockchain technology, which I think is very relevant to today's discussion. We see some very promising areas promising areas where blockchain technology can already be used to improve our customers' experience, both in terms of efficiency and risk- reward ratio. And finally, to be a participant in the second pillar, as well as help spread it further into the ecosystem.

We also do blockchain do blockchain venture investing, it's a small fund right now, but we're looking at some interesting early- stage companies that are really changing, changing what the landscape looks like from an infrastructure perspective. Therefore. Well, I think maybe to be extremely specific right away, what part of the technology that we all know about cryptocurrency is an investable product, but from a technology perspective, what has changed the game in the last 1-2 years? What is the driving force behind these changes? Yeah, I mean, you know, it's basically blockchain technology that, you know, really offered the opportunity to reduce the two most important pieces of the puzzle, right?

One of them is portability and making sure it happens in an appropriate amount of time, right? So if you look at what the if you look at what the delta is now between delta is now between , you know, banking hours, and how digital assets themselves operate 24/7, there's a mismatch going on right now that I think everyone is aware of. Hmm, stable tokens have filled that gap to some extent, but I believe we are now on the cusp of other financial instruments, ahem, tokenized money market funds being used exactly as they were intended. Um, when you think about how Wall Street works, um, and you think about the actual unit of the economy that's being passed back and forth that's being passed back and forth between several different participants in banking, and also within the bank, um, you realize that they use U.S.

Treasury bonds. So there's no real reason why, um, as the use cases are evolving now, people are talking about addressing this issue, why tokenized money market funds, um, shouldn't be used more broadly. Hmm, there are a number of use cases where tokenized money market funds can solve a huge number of problems. There's a huge amount of friction right now between exchanges operating 24/7, ahem, and the customer's ability to proceed and fund the transaction. A tokenized money market fund is a perfect fit.

Hmm, first of all, it charges interest. Second, it can be transferred on the blockchain. And third, it allows people to manage their risks appropriately. So I think the technology that's at the heart of what we're all talking about here and why we're all here is really the driving force behind how asset management products are going to change the way Wall way Wall Street and everyone in this room works. Maybe just to add.

So, this is clearly a key use case. I think use case. I think in other areas, just think about that second pillar that I described, we see technology bringing some efficiencies that we're certainly looking for in the private lending space, maybe SME lending, where I think we think a lot of the intermediaries, I don't want to call it bloated, but there are a lot of intermediaries lot of intermediaries – it's a complex industry by nature, and for good reason, but it needs to be updated, and we think some of the promise that blockchain can bring can help mitigate some of that. I think we see that in particular, SME lending is a good example because there are a lot of, you know, manual timelines and reconciliation steps that have to happen from the time that, you know, the repayment comes in to the time that it can be processed. So, that's an area that we're looking at that's very interesting and could really, you know, have a significant improvement in, um, you know, our ability for our portfolio managers to see the underlying credit metrics in real time, for example, um, but also increase, um, you know, the risk-return risk-return , just by reducing the cash burden.

So, this is just a practical example of where we see some real use cases today. Yeah, just activating that, hmm activating that, hmm . So securitization brought, ahem, some liquidity to these real assets or illiquid assets. And it was actually, um , taking these assets and trying to bundle them into securities and putting those securities into a traditional financial line. Now, when new lines come out , you get a lot more transparency, risk management capabilities, because it's instant, rather than, um, getting information every week or every month.

So you get a much tighter risk management tool, which is key in this industry because it also unlocks capital for banks that you can reallocate to other areas of your investment strategy. So, the move from securitization to tokenization brings, uh, a significant boost, uh, to the asset management community. Yeah, and probably just to flesh out that part, I mean we decided to tokenize money market funds because it was a response to the inefficiencies of the TradFi world in that market. I mean, everybody who works in the stock industry knows, you know, TA, everything, T plus two, all these problems that have been solved basically with this technology. And I think now what we can see today is probably the same thing we can see in the securitization world: the ability to, you know, have a new collateral, a new lending industry.

And I mean, this is the business of banks, which could initially offer loans to investment banks investment banks , or third-party banks could do it. And now we're seeing this new industry emerge online, or vice versa: traditional banks, which are few in Europe right now , are able to do this by coming to this region to answer this question and be, you know, upfront, rather than just reacting to the emergence of this new industry. So, I think when we had this discussion in 2016 or 2017, the question was , will this ever come out? And today the question is: okay, it's already there, do I need to look at it right now, or will it only appear in two or three years? Uh, and the question is, what's different now?

Maybe to simplify what you just said, right? So, both time and cost efficiency, liquidity and compatibility offer many opportunities. So we're still in the early stages, but this is, I believe, a game changer for asset managers. So how do you see this changing, say, our daily activities? Of course, there is a long-term part, but how does this actually affect our asset manager?

Yeah, I mean, the best use case I can rely on is, um, a use case that was put together by JP Morgan, um, about a year ago, um, codenamed Project Guardian. And for me, Project Guardian was one of the best examples of how blockchain technology can be practically applied and how it can spread to a real user, right? And what they did in this POC was they took, um, traditional asset management products, tokenized them, and allowed retail users to go ahead and then to go ahead and then , um, rebalance a portfolio, like a 401k. And that's how it works now, isn't it? All we do is go to the is go to the website, choose what our investment profile should be, choose different assets, but what happens behind the scenes is like madness, right?

You know, we're dealing with, you know, trans-regionals, and we're dealing with paper stocks, we're dealing with DTCC filings and all these other different elements that are so prehistoric. So basically they just took the GUI that you could see, but on the back end they had the tokenized stock movement, and within a second either/or the funds were moving, and within a few seconds your own portfolio was then rebalanced, you had the assets, they were in the storage solution you needed . So, to me, it's kind of an evolution of how the industry and the puck will move. And it's also something that demonstrates very clearly that this isn't just a financial, um, you know, impact or victory for, say victory for, say , big banks, it extends to ordinary people, like those in this room. And I think that's the coolest part.

Yes, I think there are only two, two things that need to be mentioned here. I think the DTCC's intention is to I think the DTCC's intention is to start, you know, processing, I forget the number, but it's an obscene number of transactions in terms of daily dollar volume, um, 5 trillion or something like that. That's trillions. Uh like that. That's trillions.

Uh , I mean, this is just the next evolution of technology that we've been seeing develop since we, you know, since we had people, you know, screaming on the New screaming on the New York Stock Exchange, right? So, I think as those pieces start to fall into place fall into place , and the NYSE and Nasdaq, as their securities are listed digitally, we can start to think about how, you know, the core intellectual property of the asset manager, which is our investment products, how implementing this, uh implementing this, uh , you know, how does this, how does this, how does the practice of implementing this actually change? Because at the moment, you know, we still manage our tokenized funds like any other traditional fund. It's just that we are actually tokenizing ownership. So they're still, you know, it's tokenization, it's kind of a veneer of tokenization, as we call it, right?

But to get to this full-fledged, end-to-end, tokenized asset management system, I mean, there are a lot of elements that need to fall into place. And here are some of the great steps that have pushed us in that direction. But, I think what's interesting also for regular people, I think it can really open up new distribution channels that we haven't encountered before. So the reason we are now tokenizing $1.6 trillion under management is because we have found a new investor base that we would not have been able to engage with otherwise.

And it's the crypto on- crypto on- chain businesses that don't have or don't want to access traditional ETFs, mutual funds, small and medium-sized enterprises or whatever in the US, um, who, you know, have found their niche in tokenized funds tokenized funds , which are doing something that the real world, the TradFi world, has been using, for example, in treasury management, for a long time, um, and now it's becoming a really important use case in blockchain. So, this is an interesting point in time where, I think, if you look at financial services stocks, they've, you know, already been practically disrupted by blockchain, right? And I think as you go down the complexity curve, right? Hmm, it will happen sequentially, but I think TradFi and DeFi are not on a collision course, but on a path to convergence on a path to convergence , if you will. And I think tokenized asset management was an interesting area where DeFi actually caught up with TradFi, rather than the other way around, because this need for yield on Treasury bond balances was so prevalent.

Yeah, and I don't want to cannibalize this panel, but one point that Patrick made that I think is worth mentioning is that it strikes me that Janus is now saying that they're finding new distribution channels within digital assets, because for years, years, years, years, there were all these issuers that were coming up with things like bottles of wine or, you know, weird real estate in weird places, and they were looking for new distribution channels and couldn't find them. And now you have an example of again the theme of, you know, convergence, you have an example of a leading asset manager finding appetite for its products in new distribution in new ways. And that's really, really cool. Looking at it, I think it's a new distribution, new partners, a new operating system. What about the legal side?

How does this affect asset managers? Well, I mean, we are in Spain in the EU now, so we have, for example, MiCA MiCA regulation. I mean, it's a little different from the rest of the world, so it's a little more technical and potentially more restrictive. But we were talking about distribution, I think. This is a good workaround, for example.

I mean, you can reach a new type of customer with this type of product. Not the same as what you have with the full file. And, uh, I mean, it's also a product issue, you know. Uh, it just does n't work just because from a technology perspective it could be better and more efficient. This is also because you have new products as well as new demands from your customers.

For example, I remember if you discussed this with traders in 2015 or 2016 , they were talking about reducing trading hours in tweets because they were too busy and tired. So now things have changed a lot, well, because of, you know, cryptocurrency and money market funds 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A lot happened over the weekend, especially this year with the Iran war, for example, oil prices changed over the weekend. So you've seen some players like, for example, Hyperliquid, they've had success this year precisely because of this type of product, you know, being able to offer oil futures only during the weekend, and, um, CME only made this product available on Monday mornings. So, you know, it's interesting from a product perspective as well.

I think maybe it's worth linking that to the title of this, right? So, a new distribution, new partners, a new regulatory framework. Is this the same business model same business model ? Just better interest rates, lower costs, or are we already seeing a new business model emerging among traditional asset managers? I think it would be really interesting to hear your thoughts because there's always a DeFi business model, which is interesting, but from the average large asset management that you probably want to hedge, you probably want to have a business model that the market already knows.

So, how do you see this impacting the business impacting the business model both in the short term and what trends are we already seeing now? I can. Yes, I am. Now, I think the game is to meet the demand from end users for more diversification in the wealth management portfolio, and the product structure or the alternative asset class is growing, and it's the fastest growing asset class in that wealth management portfolio that you need to fill, and need to fill, and maybe there wasn't enough supply enough supply , and the supply is now meeting the demand, and that brings diversification and yield again. So now rates have changed a little bit, so the search for yield has slowed down a little bit and it's much less critical, but diversification by asset class in an asset management portfolio or a wealth management portfolio is critical and you need the right provider to provide a meaningful offering to meet that demand and we think traditional asset managers are doing the job, they're also looking at the device space.

So all of this again comes together in a diversification game diversification game . I think that's also a critical component of developing an operating model, and I think that's what can happen depending on, I think, your level of ambition and where you are in the process – in the process – build, buy, or partner, right ? And I also think that what we've done so far is, you know, a partnership. This is largely an expansion of our existing capabilities existing capabilities to cater to this new audience that has an appetite for the products we tokenize. And we did this in partnership with Centrifuge, which I would say is, you know, the most battle-proven technology in the industry.

You know, it went through the largest number of decentralized sales so that everyone gets used to the fact that this is a new infrastructure story. There will be technological risk. If something goes wrong, there will be a reputational risk. So, I think trying to dive into, um, you know, a partnership model, I think works to prove this concept. But essentially, we still have, you know, our funds, uh you know, our funds, uh , the funds that we tokenized, located in the British Virgin Islands Virgin Islands .

We have 99. You know, regardless of the number of our businesses in the US and on foreign yachts. We'll want to, you know, eventually, move into this area. And we're doing, you know, deep work and deep thinking about how best to do that. And we're trying to coordinate our actions with regulators and so on, because they still, you know, don't speak the language of blockchain, there's no perfect compatibility between regulatory landscapes.

So, I think when those pieces start to fall into place, it's time to make a decision about how big of a deal we want to get out of this technology, or do we start building it ourselves? Do we want to try to get rid of the middleman of some third parties that have been working for a long time to try to get closer to the customer. Um, and I think it's really interesting what's happening from the previous conversation, um, at the same stage regarding volts and bringing in capital advisors and so on, moving forward, um, for lack of a better phrase, um, this is where what's needed is um , you know, not replication, but some form of trusted trusted ecosystem that trusted ecosystem that they can look at, and that looks familiar. And, in my opinion, the asset itself should be useful. Um, and I think we're kind of figuring out what that part looks like, but so far the purchase has worked out well.

Yeah, and when I think, when you think about disintermediation, I mean, I think it's , you know, pretty obvious that it's going to happen soon, right? I mean, I think the best use case to consider is probably hyperliquidity. If you look at what hyperliquidity is doing, I think they are scaring all the existing players to death right now. Um, every time they put a new product out there that's listed on the centralized version, um, you know, the demand is great. Um, I'm looking at what they're doing with petroleum products now.

Um, they place things like WTI and Brent and see astronomical volumes coming out of that . Um, if you sit in Chicago and New York and run the CME and the ICE, um, you pay attention to that and recognize that the model has to change, right? Part of their model, I think, is based on 24/7 delivery 24/7 delivery . Um, I think that, you know , you know, I think the point is that we go back to the point that we were talking about a second ago with Patrick, which is distribution, right ? CME Group, generally speaking, doesn't often offer its products in corners or pockets of the world where there are others, right?

Um, it's geographically isolated. Um, but if you look at even, let's say, what Bybit or Bitget is specifically doing with tokenized shares and offering them in the Asian market in a way that such products traditionally, just based on the timing of the markets opening, could never have been distributed. Um, now you're seeing even higher volumes again, which raises questions about digital twins, about native releases, and all sorts of other elements that regulation hasn't yet taken into account. Just one thing...Sorry.

Sorry, Tim. I would just like to ask a question before the business model, for example, what is the role of the asset manager? I think it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on this thoughts on this . I mean, a lot of people, if you come from the DeFi world, it's agent-based, right? This is programmed.

It's robots doing most of the work, and then you have a trusted infrastructure, right? So maybe just adding that to the mix, like what is the role of the asset manager? Is this a return to trust? Is it that someone should be vetting all these new partners? So we're really interested, maybe just to add a few words, like what is the role of an asset manager in this new programmable tokenized world tokenized world ?

I mean, if you look far enough into the future, there might be some changes. But I think ultimately what an asset manager does, at least an active fundamental investment manager like us, is we create investment portfolios that are well diversified, that adhere to risk and return characteristics that meet the expectations of retail clients, the expectations of wholesale clients, the expectations of institutional clients, right? Um, I don't think it can necessarily be something like in- between, not in-between, not in-between. This is, in essence, intellectual property. I think if we can do this activity in an environment that's, you know, less cumbersome, right, cheaper, more efficient, and allows us to provide these services to as wide a range of customers as possible, regardless of what their specific characteristics look like.

I think that's what makes us happy. Yeah, I think depending on what type of investment manager you're looking at or asset manager you're looking at, there's probably going to be bigger implications, but I think that, you know, assuming that our business model can stay the same, stay the same, which I think it will, um , you know, I don't see the need for the intellectual property that we provide to change much, and the way it's provided, but the way it's provided could change. Um, and just to the point that JD mentioned, which is the choice of regional distribution, I think that's very, very interesting. Um, because I think it's going to take some time for our traditional clients to get over the hurdles of moving to the chain, and I think there has to be some significant utility visible to the end client to get the big incumbents in wealth management and so on to actually make that move. Um, but what I think is really interesting is, you know, emerging markets , for example, where there's a higher degree of digital nativeness, you could say?

Um, you know, if you think about Southeast Asia, Africa, Latin America, where there are big neobanks with huge numbers of customers who have actually set up a digital wallet. Um digital wallet. Um , and this is where, in my opinion, the history of distribution gets really interesting. I think proving some use cases in areas where we can get good volume will help drag the will help drag the , um, TradFi space. Um, yeah, I mean, there are two ways when you think about what digital asset managers can do, right?

One, they can tokenize existing products that they have now, and they can offer an easier way of distribution, right? Delivery. The other avenue that, you know, no one has really, um, from a regulatory perspective, been able to explore yet is what able to explore yet is what happens when you take digital assets and start adding them to a portfolio, right? So, to some extent right? So, to some extent , you're starting to see, you know, very plain vanilla products involving Bitcoin and ETH because they're regulated, at least in the US.

So, you have the opportunity to act in accordance with regulatory requirements and package them, ahem, in a certain wrapper. ETFs are obviously the most notable example. But there is a universe in which, you know, all digital assets become securities; and digital assets themselves, there's no difference between a treasury stock and a digital asset, which then opens the way for digital asset managers, or even traditional asset managers, to start creating strategies and portfolios and then offering them as products in, you know, different packaging, different forms and different delivery mechanisms. And for me, it's going to be really, really exciting. But that depends on whether there is regulation that will allow this to happen.

And also asset managers, who, excuse me, asset managers who are traditionally quite conservative, will take this step and start offering these kinds of products to institutional investors, because retail investors can get them themselves and don't need this kind of packaging or exposure. We have 5 minutes left, so I think it would be interesting to look at the next few years, wouldn't you say ? And I think there's a consensus, it's not "if consensus, it's not "if ", it's "when", it's "when" and then "what", right? So, if you 're in the early stages where you see this happening, what should you actually consider? I think it would be interesting to hear your perspective, let's say from a European perspective, and I think it should be something that can show an immediate result.

You can always talk about how you need to prepare for a new future, right? But where can you see a real business case in the short term from a European perspective? Yes, actually this would also answer the previous question in a way. I mean, if you decide to go blockchain as an asset manager or as a bank or something, it's simply because you have to meet the demands of your customers. And essentially, if you have to respond to your clients' requests, it's not solely because of the technology, but because you have a specific need in terms of performance requirements, diversification, the need to gain new access to an asset class, because investing in this new technology is going to be expensive.

You will need to change your storage infrastructure, for example, change our financial manager procedure. You will have to educate people because not everyone is fully familiar with this type of product. So we need to invest in this; but I mean you probably need to bet today that it's worth it because if you do n't do it now, other players will or have already bet a few years ago and will be able to meet that demand and you won't have the kind of return that they can get. And then you can't, you know, tokenize private private assets, and that's a huge customer demand, even for retail customers today. This doesn't just apply to institutional investors or venture capital funds.

So, I think it's worth seriously thinking about this now thinking about this now , in 2026. We're not in 2016 anymore, so it's a different world now. We see, I mean we see traditional asset managers expanding their intellectual property. Intellectual property is an expertise in machine asset management, but now they need to understand and become familiar with the technology stack technology stack that allows them to move their intellectual property or apply it in the free world. And this is where things get very technical, and people like Patrick can understand and discuss it.

But you are an asset manager; you need to be technical. You need to understand how custody is different, how asset transfer agency is different, all of these rails are different, and you need to understand what partner you need to work with, what to build, what to buy. And it's a slightly different job for an asset manager, and we see them expanding and learning quite quickly, actually. That's what I find fascinating, and so on. Um, I think that's what the next few years are about, and why I think it's something worth thinking about.

I think this will fundamentally change how we manage assets. We talked quite a bit about this and the types of people we can distribute our products to. But to be clear, I think tokenization in its current form is a way to fragment liquidity to some extent . You have a healthy and liquid market, etc. So, for this usefulness to really start being realized, such a utility is needed.

I think we've taken some exciting steps to make that happen. One of them is our tokenized treasury fund, which can now settle up to $500 million daily within 10 minutes, 24/7. This is an exciting kind of utility that I think will attract users who otherwise wouldn't consider purchasing a tokenized, ahem, tokenized treasury fund treasury fund , rather than an off-blockchain alternative. This is how we implement it. Um, I think in terms of JD's idea of ​​what we'll be able to invest in, um, when we get to the point where our project managers can have both traditional securities and digital securities, but they can enhance the product that they manage within the investment policy statement that they follow, I think that's follow, I think that's something really exciting that I think will start to manifest here in the next few years.

Um, and then finally, I think another reason why people should think deeply about this is because I really think finance is moving on the blockchain over time. So, you know, if you want to participate in Al Azhar time. Yeah, and you know, one little snippet that I'll add to that is, you know, an example of how this actually happens and how finance moves through the chain, right? We take a portfolio, something simple, a Treasury fund, you know, that is allowed to have dollars and Treasury bonds in it. Um, just changing the investment strategy and getting the tax exemption that we did in one of our funds one of our funds to replace dollars with stable tokens stable tokens unlocks liquidity, right?

Redeem it with your stable token, not the cash it keeps in the bank, right? So these are small steps that people are starting to take to enable this 24/7 mobility. Um, so we ensure that not only are the shares moving along the chain, um, but the actual dollars underlying the fund underlying the fund can also move along the chain to continue and create efficiencies that benefit everyone. Good. Thank you very much.

Time is up. Thank you for coming, and I think at least what we always say at the Northern Blockchain Association is that it's still a blue ocean, we still have a lot to explore. So explore. So please ask questions, talk, talk to each other, and we have really competent people here. So thank you very much and thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

Thank you. Thank you.