Mask Network Mini Summit

hand if you can hear me raise your hand if you can hear me okay awesome um welcome uh as we're waiting for more people to come to this conversation um I can give a little bit introduce uh introduction by myself and mask Network my name is Afra I'm leading the marketing and growth with mask network uh mask network is actually a very comprehensive Foundation like company uh that does a lot of investment on decentralized social infrastructure to we build decentralized identity protocol next ID we build a lens and a farter client called Firefly so mask network is basically this this comprehensive organization that trying to advance the fontier of De centralized social so how many how many of you here care about decentralized social raise your hand if you care about decentralized social yes yes anyone who has their hand raised should feel supported by mask Network and should should feel supported and connected to us um without further Ado today we have a a amazing lineup uh of many many guests are talking about variety of issues but but just for me uh being in mask for the past two years is really me witnessing this entire social landscape changing uh from the nent Blue Sky uh coming to everyone's uh uh eyesight to the acquisition of Twitter now become x.com uh to the recently uh really crazy farcaster wave with the invention of frames I think we will have a lot of interesting topics to cover not only from this very academic aspect but also the newest what's going on in the market um so the first panel uh we will have mask networks founder suji and a very very long-term masks friend n Schneider uh to have a Fireside talk and um uh Nancy will be the moderator for this talk so I will um welcome the three amazing people to come on the stage um and talk about U things we care about all right Nancy I hand over the the mic to you oh hello everyone how are you uh my name is Nancy woo and the uh mask Academy curator which is a nonprofit entity of mask Network um we donate and found top universities and uh institution uh of the their initiatives and programs uh of web Street research and storytelling um I think I have the most exciting job um to change the web stre World um thanks to one person sui yen is now sitting next to me um so suji is a founder of mass network uh when he was about nine years ago when he was 19 years old he was still coding in some basement in UI in Illinois and he had a very clear Vision how to change the world just like the uh Cypher funks so he dropped out from the school and started something later become M mass network suji can now do it alone because he had help uh from many like-minded friends so one of them is n Nathan Schneider uh who is activist journalist and currently teaching at University of car Carol Boulder um actually Nason recently just published a book which is very exciting um so the two first met in 2019 in China and they they started to this started um met on this platform Co-op and started to cook up the ideas lead to today's decentralized Revolution so I'm going to give the mind to to Nathan to start the conversation with sui let's hear about the conversation from the Two Amigos thank you thank you so much Nan um and it's just such a pleasure to be here um welcome to all of you who are not from Colorado um it I feel very lucky to be in the state here where we get to host this event every year um and uh and also you know keep an eye out for the values and Ed in this for instance uh uh the the Dow Spork Dow that that runs eth Denver is organized as a Cooperative business and that's a way of doing thing that's really deep uh it's uh really close to my heart and and uh fits into these values of decentralization um you know in the in the last five or so years since we first met in 2019 um so much has changed right I mean at that time um uh uh decentral Iz social was more of a dream than a reality uh it was something that a lot of us were doing around the edges playing around with experimental apps and protocols um today uh you know we're more than a year into the musk apocalypse and um we have a real chance uh to do what you know to build what I call in in you know the book that Nan just mentioned um uh the title of the book is governable spaces and we're uh really at a moment where we have a chance to build social networks that are truly governable spaces which means spaces that uh that the participants can can shape uh can truly own and govern um on their own terms so um uh suya has su's been such a leader in developing this um uh this movement I've used for years apps that he's he's participated in building um and I uh uh and and so I'm just so curious ious to uh to hear his perspective today I want to start out with a question about um about uh you know where you see the kind of state-ofthe-art right now what is the the state of decentralized social how far are we along um what still needs to be done you know can you lay uh a bit of a a you know broad Strokes picture of of where decentralized social is right now I think when we when when mask and and my friend started the idea in 2016 2017 there's only the G new Social and Matan was around around you know around the this small area and it's purely nonprofit um the first major wave um was uh actually initiated by that time the Twitter company when Jack was still the CEO uh he wanted to do something different so he initiate the Blue Sky which I think um on the on the balance sheet Blue Sky now SP out but on the balance sheet they have uh 50 million Grant from Twitter which the IPO company yeah and I mean it's so striking that he came to the conclusion after running Twitter that this should not be a company this should be a protocol yes and and that's a kind of like a changing a huge change even for for us cuz like I remember cuz we we almost self funding ourself like we were selling our B Bitcoin Holdings and it's quite planful experience um a lot of like my friends they they believe me in me but they kind of lose face in this this sector and and I think Jack is like um donating and and and shouting and Shing did make a difference um we actually become quite financially um say successful thanks to him but but it didn't solve the problem right um and and that time blue sky was not really an A company that just like putting all the togethers I remember there's a blue sky ecosystem page created by um the founder of Gand DB and we were on that that page and also mat Stan also other other folks and it's not really say we're going to create a new at protocol it's just a random group and so and yeah they we'll create something and we're going to figure out we're going to talk to everybody who's do trying this and more funny it's not it's not a Twitter group group it's a group on Discord I remember clearly I don't know why they choose Discord but it's like it's a group on Discord that's a first wave and the second wave is like the the Twitter acquisition um um it's almost one year like it's almost two year I'd say I think you know I don't like the current version of Twitter under ilam but I won't say that the old version is perfect and honestly I I say it it could be worse it could be worse like I always think like we everyone everyone of us in this community no matter what three open source or whatever we kind of like have some responsibility to the failure of this like Twitter at current stage because I remember clearly um back in the times around the 2017 Bitcoin Bon to the 2021 Bon that's around like four years right within that four years um Jack tried many things inside Twitter including Blue Sky including many things we we have like a lot of deals signed with them a lot of like M us it doesn't matter anymore right now but but I I I feel there's strong tension inside that's because of the shareholder structure the um Al management you know the famous hedge fund PE yeah they are the activist activism investor they they have a huge stake and they don't like Jack's approach um they're worse than Elon honestly I do think Elon at least car some of the Social Network free speech per per his you know understanding but but but El management that guy doesn't really care right he want to turn Twitter into a printing machine to print money yeah so I think it can it can be worse so we are not really in the best situation right now but definitely we are not in in the worst situation because these guys can definitely you know make Twitter a private company and and do other shitty stuff so I just lucky that it's ilum um turn it into a private company but it's also a bad thing that it's him you know that's the controversial side and I can't I can't imag um a better individual to took that from the the stock market but also I I came M there's way better management can can can run the current Twitter so that's that's a controversial thing right we I think everyone of us responsible when we see that small window for 3 four years there we didn't do much and and we can do much as a as a as a small company that time I think there's many huge funds out there they're just waving billions of dollar check and they just like soft bang Andre and what they're doing well I G I gave them a chance because in in 2017 a group of us ran a a shareholder proposal at Twitter saying this is a risk You're vulnerable to to capture um you should do distributed ownership among your users uh and uh so we gave a chance you're what what happened you received a letter from SEC right well the they they tried to stop us at the SEC but the SEC actually ruled in our favor um Andy in office yeah but but it allowed the it allowed the the proposal to go forward and um you know we got about four% of the vote or something like that and then after that we ended up creating um social. Coop which is a co-op um that runs a Macedon server yeah right and so you know we had to do that you know what we call in like social movement talk like dual power you know confronting the authority but also um uh you know building an alternative um and you know but the the you know the point about Elon I think there's a shift too in that at least you know in the in the earlier regime what we media Scholars used to criticize was there was at least this claim that we're building a neutral platform right you know Jack and Jack dorsy and Mark Zuckerberg and all these kinds of figures were like okay we're going to at least pretend we're building a neutral platform you know the way Elon Musk runs this show is like you know I don't like it when people say CIS gender or something you know like so I'm GNA ban everybody you know it's like his show right it's there's no longer this claim that it's an open platform it's become a fum you know a core Concept in this book I just wrote is implicit feudalism the feudalism has gotten a lot more explicit he revealed the truth yeah he R the truth it's always like that and you're right it's not like it was Glory Days before right yeah yeah and and that's the first stage and and from that time like it's really weird cuz I I was I was a journalist like you're you're also a journalist right I was in the we were in the cycles of people reporting Acquisitions and just when Elon came in suddenly every huge PC just like begged him to take the money to to took Twitter out out of the stock market but back in the days they don't really have blls to to Aur um enough stake um here's a very interesting story um I'm open to say that right now um like almost one or two year before the Elon thing happened I was on a yard with c um the binance head right I was telling him um you know that um the Twitter stock Twitter Market capab is actually smaller than your binance coin it's that time I remember clearly it's 26 or 250 uh 25 billion um and he didn't believe that he actually took out his phone we on his yacht like lexury yacht and we just having some fun he he just searched Google Twitter market cap and then he just searched he he know the binance coin market cap he like oh that's a really interesting deal I think he did B some personally but everyone just don't think Twitter going to make money so just like they stay there yeah yeah and and our industry the crypto industry in the B market you have lot of cash this wasted on the other like you know Sam layer three layer two again again and no one thereare to touch the I say the ho thing of the internet that is the social network yeah now they they start to realize it's important so yeah that's my opinion I think um we just review the true identity of Twitter and and the true situation of the social platform or any internet platform running inly yeah yeah yeah all right well let's do a little bit of a poll here um just to to map out the kind of ecosystem that we're talking about here um who here is on for instance uh farcaster okay fair amount of hands that would not be the case at anywhere other than a TW uh crypto conference but okay um Noster few nosters okay uh Mastadon even fewer uh Blue Sky all right some people who weren't on others uh crypto Twitter everybody all right so right now we're in a situation where U I'm in a situation I don't know about you all but where I have so many of these apps that like if I want to post anything to people that might be interested in something you know I want share I feel like I'm going to 500 different apps one thing you've been interested in is is building apps that integrate these uh these pieces together one of the dangers of decentralization one of the you know the the things that can that can go Ary is is it just becomes unwieldy um how do you see this this ecosystem of all these different emerging networks and protocols coalescing into something that is is manageable in the way that you know I don't want to call email manageable but at least I can still use it all in one client yeah so like even Google and and Microsoft was fighting like hell back in the days you can email each other like Hotmail can email gmail no problem but right now the funny part is like I think I think math team is probably the one of the only I think maybe the only one talking to every other social protocol like you know like Nas people are s Bitcoin so if we propose to add stable coin payment not through 90 like 99 words they just going to Mad instantly no idea why and and you know like the same thing apply for Blue Sky V um Masson which is running an activity PAB like we are agree activity PAB is really old protocol but there's no reason not to be compatible right and and the same thing apply for like Lance INF foraster they're all I think evm based you know you use ethereum ke pairs EV you know evm and ens no one is doing the bridge and and that's one thing another thing is like um people who have money have no intention to donate to nonprofit that don't really have money we be we become largest Doner for mastan that's weird you know because the second largest donor is Samson and and when we finish donation we're like oh it's not really big check 100K and you know per year maybe 200k 300K uh maybe we some top Doner but then it's the the review review of the identity the review from the CFO is M like we are the largest single donor wow um and I know lots of the social platform they raise tons of money yeah right and and again if people don't donate to bitcoin people the not their problem right so so again I think I think the problem is not really we don't have enough um good design in social networks there's beautiful things to learn from from each protocols right some of them have uh have special feature on moderation which is very important because you don't want to let like neonazi take out platform you don't you know like you can you can give them the freedom to to write on blockchain but have the freedom to moderation is another very important thing so a lot of design don't really have it um another platform another protocols several another protocols they they never think about the gdpr which they have the right right to forget right right to erase your data and once your blockchain you cannot really erase maybe you should erase your key so that's a completely new design people just don't think about it um and I was in DC for two year um for last two year one of the reasons I try to talk to the people who who are in the office right and I was trying to you know talk to them like what's going on with Tik Tok do do you really think that's a Chinese spy thing I don't I didn't get an answer but but you know I'm open to do the conversations right I think I think once decentralized social really take off have like 10 million of users that's going to be a huge problem how can you not really how can you let the government like the three lad agencies not try to censor not try to control um everything you have to have a way to to to negotiate with them yeah um I think we we also the only one really actually spending money in DC like helping and and not me like I'm not not I'm not American let let the American activism groups to do something um donate to J school right cuz early Twitter is not because of the investors right definitely investor play a huge role like Silicon Valley cool people VC Jack friend you know all these VCS they play a huge role in the early Twitter but the early Twitter is also like South by people musicians right cool cool celebrities and and journalists and J School need donations no one doing that so I just feel like a little bit sad I think people are still fighting each other in this small decentralized social Community um I I don't see any points of doing that right I mean yeah we can do business like if we do business we we we do investment we're investor of Lance we investor of the orb which is the Lance app we acquire a lot of like apps such as the Twitter o x which is the Twitter Plus maton app when we do that we we talk about business like oh the valuation makes sense or not the the price is good or not but even the deal didn't went through um we still on to help I didn't see much of that happening right now um so that's why I think we just calling everyone say hey we need to have a neutral stand um common standpoint that just help every decentralized social network no matter we crypto we blockchain or with whatever blockchain Bitcoin etherum Sal you can do whatever chain you want yeah to help it to win well I the point you're making you know it's so important that you bring up investment structures here because um you know I I remember early on when I started doing that um Twitter campaign one of the early engineers at Twitter came up to me at an event and said you know um uh we were ready to go in in you know the B1 of of the of the Twitter software to Federate you know we we we we were building it out and then it was a business decision mainly to please the The Venture Capital investors uh that made them shut it down you know so it wasn't a technological problem you know over and over we see this in the um you know in in the history of technology that that okay you can have decentralized technology out there um like even the web itself but it can get captured by uh by investment models and that's the story of Twitter I mean it initially was ready to to serve as a protocol as an open protocol but um it was the investment model that got in the way so I think um right now we have to be really attentive to that and and one thing that I think is important about macedon's approach and and you know thank you for being a supporter of that um is is that they really have um taken a principled stand against venture capital and some people see that and say why are you bothering with that you need your rocket fuel um like like all the other apps are taking farter and blue sky and all these things but um but I you know I think they're right to see investment as a critical leverage Point um but I I do want to ask you you know I know I appreciate the kind of neutral stance you're taking here um but I I'm curious we as we're talking about decentralized social you know decentralization is a word that gets slapped onto all kinds of things without a lot of specificity what do you think is important to decentralize right I mean all these different systems um decentralize in very different ways right some do it on a blockchain you know something like uh um uh uh for for Mastadon there's no blockchains it's just different servers talking to each other what is most important to decentralize to be able to call something you know decentralized social I think eventually we're going to see a word that if I'm a Creator on some social network probably even only fan like if I'm Creator on something I want to create a line I want to like a law buy a house I just going to you know clariz my account to an AI and say hey okay I have a lot of fans if I sell some like nft or some goods and even videos I can make such much money and and you know that AI know that can give you a credit line and people can to live thrive in the cyber space right just like you know we we have payrolls we own our properties in the real world and we have free of speech here and currently we don't don't have that anymore in in the cyber space and I think we probably never have that in the cyber space just you know besides the this few um the few early early you know OG probably remember the early 90s but besides that there was never independent cyber space right I think in order to achieve that you need a decentralized um public forum to talk to each others right and you have you may have different level of like Pap Forum like maybe some of the some of the bar just ser whiskey it's fine you know you can just go to other bars the key is to have not locking functionalities right um currently all this approach um they all try to do some lockings right even even Mason they try to do some lockings I think it's I'm locked into the community I'm part of in important ways yeah yes I think it's important about the attitude whether they welcome someone to bricking and grab you you know say hey uh we breaking this bar and our friend there we just grab them and we just go to another bar I I I'd say a lot of venture back um protocol they won't welcome this the simple reason is how can you return money to the investors right and this is a super difficult curve I think it's need a lot of like approach that really we haven't think of yeah um and I I have to admit like back in the days of mass network we we did took a lot of money from the from the investors and we're lucky that we we in the back in the days we were in the bull market and we got support from all the ogs like thanks to vital Shing for the red pocket and a lot of people left our Lunar New Year campaign it it took off financially so every investor super happy and they walk away with token money and they just leave us along they say hey do whatever you want that give us a strong advantage that we we're not responsible for any Venture Capital that invested or trading we just try to achieve our goal and the goal of the industry which means we can do things from acquisition investment pure nonprofit donation funding to public col funding to College funding to NGO we can do all these and that's I think that's a key to to keep yourself open-minded and when someone breaking your bar say hey let's don't drink Japanese sck let's just turn into other things you have to open say hey okay whatever you want to drink and even you can even take my customer away it's fine we can the dogs going to open open any any times I didn't see any of that right now and yeah that's important and if we don't again if we don't have this I think we we're we're kind of like seeing a short um window uh like three four year maybe five year on time from this bll cycle to the next one 2020 2030 2029 if we didn't really work together I think that that just you know that beautiful time going to just fly away just like the Twitter thing we wasted yeah we really wasted that time you know now I I mean I think one thing that's very powerful about the last few months is uh was the the huge rise uh the huge Spike um that foraster experienced with the with the release of frames um and and you know I got really excited about it I keep trying to convince my students this is really cool you know because um it's not just another clone of a social network and there are you know for instance ways in which blue sky and and mastedon uh for are different from Twitter say but often they're kind of subtle and under the hood they don't really hit you um uh in while you're scrolling uh in know Doom scrolling at late at night or something um frames is like a different um kind of uh uh basic uh uh tool in social media it's a different idea and it's enabled by the fact that this whole thing is connected to the blockchain as a social graph um and so I'm curious if you see other kinds of opportunities like that that where decentralized social becomes not just well you know eat your vegetables and get off of big social uh uh it become becomes not just another clone of existing products that were in first in produced over a decade ago but actually enables us to do things that we couldn't do before because we were caught up in big social you know how how does um you know the the the move toward decentralization actually open the door to different kinds of experiences yeah I see like you know Twitter have every chance to do that I mean like when I pretend I don't know faser team or the friend you know like design I just pretend I don't know anything like I'm going to ask a random guy developer right say hey what is the FR foraster can you explain that to me you say oh you know like you're from Asia it's like the wech mini app I'm like okay you know and and and then the the next thing you going to remember is like elon's been been Shing on on Mini apps for years yeah and then SS like he than thanks to him they fire everyone now no one can deliver that in Twitter but that even that thing is not a completely new thing it's not really invented by desent it's by by decentralized feature right it's I think it's more about like the the mismanagement of Twitter they cannot deliver that um there's people trying to do some open frame standard that make every decentralized social app can do that it's cool I think eventually we're going to have um daps to be decentralized apps to be more mini apps and integrated into every app can be social app I think mostly social app and that going to be huge definitely not going to be huge but in order to do that we need to keep it open right okay I interacting something I interact with some friend whatever like mini app on on blue sky or or lens or like you know whatever and it should reflect back to the the webcast thec official client I I hope they they going to allow it I don't know whether they're going to allow it right um you know like hey we have lot of scen input from other social networks reflect on on on the foraster if they are willing to do that it's this a huge difference and then and then again back to the history Tim Bern Lee back in the days um the creator of world we web right he tried to do some um um work workshop and work group inside the the w3c it's called um minia app uh minia apppp web standard and and that time he able to invite all the all Giants in the group from 10 and Alibaba Facebook Twitter and it didn't it didn't want took off cuz these guys keep fighting into inside it and the only one really care about this standard seems to be Microsoft because they don't really have any St in Social Network right so again I I hope this thing going to be different um we we have a lot of we have a lot of conversation with with like I think I'm the first one mentioned to him face to face we should try out the Lance foraster M all the things he did try the all three I'm kind of worried right now that we are we going to do the same mistake like like 10 years ago when team bring every big big you know big social app they just fighting each other to death and basically they trick them right they trick the w3c I kind afraid that it's going to happen yeah yeah and and again if if italan and other friends of EF going to lead this conversation say hey we're going to do this small mini work group inside the EF our old friends Bitcoin people going to Maxi people going to just show up from somewhere else say hey we don't we don't want you guys it's so so hard well that's the story of building standards I mean it's it is a hard challenge in in all kinds of Industries and um you know you can get people together and and say we'll have a conversation build a standard and try to Agree to Agree but often it's often it's uh it's the market that that uh determines the standard and then you know we saw this for instance with EV plugs over the last year where uh the government you know in the US asserted one standard and then you know Tesla got the market chair that that impose another one and um and you know that kind of thing I think is is what's playing out in in certain respects like we need to see what is able to capture mind share and capture uh uh people's attention and that's going to be leading the standard one one thing we're trying to do right now internally and we try to we're willing to share that to public is like we try to make sure every dollar we invest through the through the profitable way like the the financial profitable way or Venture way every dollar we invest every $10 we invest we're going to make like one or2 doll donation that is pure nonprofit you know it's just it's going to just go to someone's pocket and they're going to sink there and they're going to just use it we try to do that internally so we didn't really invest too much we invest around like 40 million in pass halfly on the social network and we made around 3 four million donation per year I think one day we able to see oneon-one if we if we able to run this thing successfully we're able to see one1 $1 we spend um Venture style investment we can spend $1 on nonprofit and and that's going to be quite important I I would love to call every other social protocol with huge balance sheet and with huge um investment support to do the same thing you know like 10 to 2 10 to one is is okay I think they can to do that I'd love to see someone I think you can Professor n you can be the one running the the joint do or like you know saying like you know um call it open social whatever foundation and we happy to hand that to you and you can just pick the the young kids to support that's the key otherwise you know like um we were discussing the the the the standard called noer right mown and Noster they're funding they're funding besides some some open source Community donation why I don't know I think we should fix that problem if you look into the open sex Foundation that's almost merely founded by B Jack and again he's a he's a he's a man he's not a God he not going to able to fund this thing continually he have to sell his stock sometimes right he's using the the the the square star to funding this it's not healthy and and we love to see this thing happen I'm calling everyone care about the decentralized social to make this thing happen yeah well and I think it's a it's a really important recognition that in order for this stuff to work it's going to have to involve public goods you know it's going to have to involve um funding things that don't have an immediate return but have a collective return um as the ecosystem develops and and um and that that we're moving I hope into a new phase where we recognize the Public Square uh the the um you know that that social networks need to be a Commons in some respect they cannot any longer be a um uh a Walled Garden um you know I'm curious to um you know you mentioned like the the mini apps in in WeChat and things like that and you know you you've been involved also in uh uh with Japanese Macedon instances and um I'm curious if there are lessons from um from experiences in Asia with social networks that you know those mini apps we've been trying to catch up to those for years here Mark Zuckerberg and Jack dorsy and Elon Musk have been salivating over mini apps for for years and can't seem to to pull it off um what um you know what else uh do we need to learn from the Global Experience uh with social networks those of us here in the US might might not be paying attention to yeah so that's like just think about like how many decentralized social apps or frontend really support multiple language less than five maybe and then we run three of them right and I think American is bed to to have all these you know smart Brands here and just able to communicate in just one language yeah that's great um but by numbers like Twitter one third of Twitter's user is like speak Japanese I have no idea why and a lot of people are like from China and Korea they just use the VPN randomly show up all over the world that's around 40% almost 40% of the Twitter user base Facebook Never released the detail number but if you count in WhatsApp domination in India and Southeast Asia I don't think it's probably even larger considering the the the activity there um again we are try to we try to do decentral social apps right decentralized social protocols protocols write the English and just do the chat gbt translation great no one really do the apps in other language why let's take a look of the mirror right mirror XYZ is the blog platform use the decentralized storage and your wanted to log in I don't know whether that team really look into the numbers but I can I can I can I'm pretty sure that half of the half of the content of mirror is not English more than half um um our latest because we we run the whole rwe noes and ipfs noes we know the whole transaction on these storage layers so by our by our calculation around 55 to 60 percentage of the social uh decentral social blogs um Mera etc etc is not English again there's no other language uiux if you don't think that way if you don't you know immerse yourself into your decentral physical way you just you know it's very easy just take a flight and just being be in all the other places don't just follow the East Denver or east you know Paris East Shanghai at least just do some other traveling right and you just talk to the local people you're going to figure out why it's important um and you're going to figure out why there's line in Japan Kaka in Korea we in China what's happening in India blah blah blah blah you're going to figure out why it's because like back in the days uh when Web Two is still open they just mess up all this big company mess up they don't care about localization they don't care about needs of local people um I'm so sad that I I saw I see the same thing happen in the decentralized social right now yeah um okay just first version English great but at least put the other language in upcoming versions um and and no your users know which language they're speaking and maybe add an AI translation button it's not hard yeah yeah well but it has to go beyond technology because the you know you think of like some of the great tragedies of web 2 social you know the uh rohinga genocide right around Facebook was not just a lack of language but a lack of support for local control and um and I hope that decentralized social can enable that kind of local control um uh you know so that so that people who know the cultural context can actually shape and you know help keep these safe uh these places safe I think it's time to turn over to uh to questions from you all yeah um actually before we go to wrap up this last section um why don't we Nathan you just publish a book right can you say a few words of the book and yeah and I believe maybe the audience here they might have a chance to get a free copy yeah do we have a slide with the QR code on it um so the this book was just published by University of California press it's called governable spaces again and um that QR code will take you to a uh uh a free copy of it in multiple formats PDF ePub Mobi all those sorts of things um so this is uh free and open access um it's a uh an exploration of first of all how um the the history of social online spaces has really prevented Ed people from practicing self-governance um and how uh how we can go about changing that and and it you know makes the argument that blockchains among other things have been a real profound opportunity for um for enabling the the the very possibility of self-governance in online spaces um uh uh but that's not an opportunity that uh has any guaranteed outcome uh so the book explores ways that we can make sure that we take that opportunity seriously it talks about my experience you know co-leading co-founding at least a um a Cooperative Macedon server and um and uh explorers you're talking about policy uh a different approach to public policy grounded in um enabling uh uh self-governance in online space rather than solving everything with top- down uh rules and that sort of thing so um I hope it's useful to yall um and thank you for uh for taking a look and sharing you might get the sign copy if you're fast enough to catch him digitally signed I guess yeah maybe an ft I don't yeah exciting I want to get a copy so okay we enter the next session uh we have about 10 minutes to open up the questions to the audience but before that we actually have a code for this session um in mask we have a code saying that mask on limits off so don't hold your limits to ask your questions and yeah you guys too okay hit me Trump hit me hit me hard with the Trump question all right so uh I'm going to let my colleague down there to pass you the mic so if you have a question raise your hand I point and if you can curently see your name and your question to address to either Nathan or suji okay any questions okay great your name where you work and then your question address to hi my name is Susan and I work with USA's office of global Trends and technology and and my question is about privacy and how you see this development of web 3 a lot of the Technologies are not very privacy facing and and even to get into this conference the amount of data that I had to give up about myself was slightly shocking and given all of the concerns around surveillance capitalism and and the lack of privacy on blockchain and crypto can you do we just not care about it anymore and what is your thought about that you were talking about standards and norms and practices do you feel that privacy is just going to die so the question is to whom sorry oh to anyone who wants to answer it okay I'm going to I'm going to give you a simple answer like I was super C I was super CU about my address until one day until one day like the enss got just DM me say suju you're going to have a big air job from us cuz you're the early one of the early unit whatever right and then just keep you know I keep having airdrops even though I I I think dude we we're not raising money we okay you can have a lot of people for air drop but they're like oh your address is on the top early list um I think that seems good little bit because at least there's a price but at least it's a price and I think a lot of people who care about privacy they they have a price inside their heart right say hey if Facebook pay you a million are you going to yeah I mean most people going to say yes instantly and if you pay Twitter $7 are you going to no they're going to not do that so I think the the situation right now in the web3 or or crypto more crypto related decentralized social space decentralized space is because it's so financially related with all the you know all the other the token Market Bitcoin Etc now there's a relatively fashion uh market for some of these price some of these datas and it's just it's not it's not say it's working it's something efficient on some certain perspectives and if we able to scale that to a larger scale um at first we're going to be really um kind of um annoying because you kind of lose some privacy because people going to track your address oh okay suji have a new air job okay that guy is elaborated got a new nft but you also need to remember what once you have a cryptographic address and you know C uh cryptographic labeling you also enable the the the functionality of like private transactions encrypted direct message right you have a key in your hands and and together we efficient market you can price you can say okay just don't talk to me on any my of my data if you don't have 1 million ready for my data or you say hey okay I'm really you know need some like air job um you know few few hundred bucks okay I think once the market is out um yeah certainly a lot of people are going to Welling to hand over their privacy but the the big company going to pay way way more because we are using algorism to to to fight against algorisms right if you just sit a bar say Okay $10 for everyone's address they're going to win because they always have better algorithm to to compete and to to sell you your data at a better price you have to have a grassroot something like you know air job whatever algorithm and to fight against them using the machines ma machine fight against machines and you're going to win you're going to win a little bit say hey okay now you're going to pay a huge price this is my opinion yeah yeah yeah I I mean I would I I think a lot of this can be addressed without necessarily getting into the financial side and I I I think it's a really important question I I was I shared that feeling in registering and often have that feeling interacting with web 3 spaces where you know I degoogle phone and I couldn't like use the first version of warcast because it wouldn't work on it and every other you know app works fine um you know and I'm often kind of appalled by how much you know web 3 is not taking this stuff seriously like why are Dows running on Discord and telegram rather than Matrix which is a you know privacy centered protocol based um you know chat system um you know I think we could be much more intentional about these things um I also think it's important to frame when we talk about social media the question not just as privacy as a kind of unalloyed good right I mean accountability is the other side of privacy and we need systems where people can be accountable for things they say things they do harm they might create um as well as protecting appropriate privacy um and again I I I actually think if we um are able to devel spaces that you know are not primarily primarily financially motivated will be in a better position to address those questions uh appropriately to get that balance right between privacy and accountability thank you any other questions okay we have two in the back maybe make it very brief because we only have five minutes left and also keep your answer short thank you all right um thanks for sharing and my name is ran and we are a small team making some effort in the uh D so on social media space and so so actually um I have a question regarding the like the challenges uh in the decentralized kind of um social space like what would you think would be the kind of a challenge that we need to kind of a tackle so I got some like uh options here so for one is regarding the infrastructure uh to support the decentralized social uh social media and then the second is uh for the an app adoption uh like to make more people kind of use the app or uh we will have some features that can enable people to do something uh that people won't be able to do uh in the current uh social space yeah so uh that that is my question okay one sentence tip I think tradeoffs you know like NASA took off Dam take off thanks to Jack Shin but again if you if you guess the The Da right now on N it's lower than 20K right now because people forgot their keys I I just think like every every every decentral social whatever they need to learn the tradeoffs and again I mentioned gdpr if you if you ever ever put everything on on on Broad chain you're going to have a huge problem you later tradeoffs um I I think most of the time they haven't really think about this in a not in a technical way but in a sociology way okay great we pass to the next one hello uh my name is Daniel um co-founder of surf uh we're building a super app um a mobile superar app that integrates uh lens and forecaster it's like a Tik Tok field with frames uh and all we're trying to build something fun and make more uh experiences so my question to you is um it's about the audience I want to hear your your ideas uh because we know the the user bases of lens and foraster now are really crypto Bros crypto girls you know like the the topics uh that people talk are really specific so we often debate uh about our strategy like what should we do like trying to compete for this users that are already using uh other mobile clients uh like crypto Twitter like pulling them everywhere or to focus on non- crypto audiences that in fact is the biggest space uh so yeah that that's what I would like to to know your opinions about I mean I I think it's a important question and um and I think it's it's worth noting for instance how blue sky I developed for instance targeting journalists and targeting people in you know who who are cultural influencers outside of the tech world you know starting out with people who have networks and interests in conversation outside of that world and I think you know the first crypto app that does that going to be um uh you know it'll have a new chance but at the same time I think it's valuable to incubate these tools among people who are the early adopters in these contexts just because the barriers are going to be really real for other people like you know the frames you know are not going to be useful for somebody in a lot of these cases that doesn't already have a wallet isn't already kind of familiar with nfts so I think actually bootstrapping around particular communities is really important um one way or another um though I you know share the concern like I would love to go open up far or warcast or whatever and like not just see crypto talk yeah I say like crypto social network is a kindergarten because super well founded compared to others yeah right just give you example mes key in Japan is a activity P compatible thing no funding at all M we donate and become largest donor and number two is Samsung right you can't imagine that thing happening in the crypto Twitter so crypto Twitter is the kindergarten but once you out of that you can to face real problem like when we acquire the Japanese mown inance Kapa they got like 1.1 million users we receive some email from interpo that's not fun and and I just say like crypto Twitter it's everyone's so nice they just they probably just going to fight about Bitcoin and ethereum not about Trump on no Trump but if you're out of kindergarten you're facing serious problem it's not it's not the investor talking to you it's the interpo and FBI whatever say hey can you delete that can you just you know took down that thing from the blockchain because the GDP require us if you don't have an answer better train yourself in the crypto Twitter kindergarten that's that g money to to feed you and you can just think about it it's it's a hard problem great thank you all right we wrap up this session and move to the next one and remember mask on lame s when you buil when you build and you have no limits thank you thank you so much I already see so many great social Builders building amazing things within the web three social realm and again if you care about web three social I think mask you should be you should definitely feel Sur 4ed by mask and we have a lot of colleagues on the scene so talk to them talk to us um we want to help um so I have a question um who knows the Bitcoin price right now I'm really curious how much is it how much is it I heard it reached 60k today um I I want to use Bitcoin priz to introduce the next panel topic simply because I often find myself stuck in this dilemma where on the one side I was surrounded by pretty much the most brilliant Builders innovators computer scientist cryptographers in the space but on the other hand often times I find myself sitting in this trillion dollar Casino so do you feel like you're in an Innovation Hub or a casino three of you Casino Casino Casino I'm going to to say Innovation Hub Innovation H okay two two to one fair fair um I'm really really looking forward to this panel topic which is social F versus web3 social so this topic is going to talk about the hyperf financialization of web fre social in the space and we have our great colleague Lawson to moderate this panel and the James Lucas and near to be the panelist um so let's give them a round of applause um really really looking forward to it thank you guys thank you AFA James Young if you're here head on down uh so yeah so we got two of our uh panelist guests um I'll do some intros maybe see if James Young can make it out as well um so yeah so I'm uh Lawson Bay uh founder of r a social curation protocol and that recently last year um joined the mass team as well um I am just incredibly excited about web3 social decentralized social socialy I don't care what you call it um but a social a social media and an internet where we can uh connect with each other and say things that aren't always uh uh you know uh allow for debate open debate and and take Society online and those things online um and so we've designed this panel uh social vers decentralize uh uh social 5 versus web3 social to kind of talk about these ideas of how to strike a balance between the ethos of decentralization and composability and all these like buzzwords we say of why we're in crypto um uh verse uh the financialization um Bitcoin started this um Bitcoin is is money right um and so u in in that kind of straddle um we've struggled I think to uh find ways to both attract users uh while also not feel like it's a car sales lot uh a lot of times the social media we through social uh platforms can feel like someone's always trying to sell you something and as a new user that's not super super appealing um so first I want to do quick introductions um we have near um two seats over to me um founder of the yep protocol um and uh the yep app um yep was a very early um social protocol in the space as well before web through social was even a term um yep definitely kind of paved a lot of the path of honestly a lot of the things we're seeing today um and a year and a half ago I think um they launched the yep mobile app that brings together multiple uh decentralized protocols uh near you want to say hello yeah hey everyone hope you're doing well uh working on yup it's a web3 social aggregator so imagine lens foraster Twitter blue sky and one app uh we see ourselves as a gateway to web 3 social sort of Creator Focus the the key way people use you up today is to cross post between those different platforms and just super excited to be here with some Builders very motivated think this is very much the year for both web3 social and social F whatever we choose to call it right yes yeah so don't care what we call it we just need more users and and need more games to play um very bullish on yep very bullish on uh aggregating and bringing the different networks together um and so next up we have uh Lucas from pods founder of PODS um prior to pods uh Lucas was uh with the bankless team as kind of like probably the top tier media team in the space um Lucas actually helped uh launch and ran a lot of their podcasts and so naturally um he turned that into to a product um Lucas yeah absolutely what's up everyone thank you for coming um so I'm the founder of PODS or pods. media and we help bring podcast on chain so we allow podcast host to easily publish their episodes on chain to bring this new monetization model that's not advertisement based and then also build a social graph of their fans so finding you know the individuals behind their fan base really cool all right um cool so um I'm GNA ask a few questions for the whole panel and then each of you kind of get your own questions and everybody else can kind of jump into a pine on it as well um I guess so just to start off um each of you are building apps uh that maybe have some web 3 social ethos in it um along with some financialization ethos in it um why don't you just briefly tell us uh who's your power user of your app and and what are they getting out of it I would say the the power user of yep is a web3 social Creator someone who's probably spending a majority of their time on a web3 social protocol like lens or forecaster or even more open social protocols like blue sky uh but often is doing that alongside using at least one of these other platforms if it's not Twitter then it's one of these other social protocols and once to be able to kind of do that and engage from one place for example I believe bankless is a is a yep user you know Ryan selus who's a big yep user kind of describes it as a uh insurance policy on his social graph a way for him to without changing his behavior be able to engage with audiences on new protocols uh while still targeting his audience on Twitter uh but over time is building that audience on these new protocols and is able to engage with them through y you yeah so I I really like the the uh proposition um helping people stay in touch with their audiences again bankless where Lucas was previously um has audiences uh across Twitter but on lots of other platforms um uh uh and mask we have a firefly app um which provides a lot of similar kind of keeping in touch with your different uh uh friends and followers uh and and uh the people you connect with in the space across these networks um uh n I'm curious um how much of of your users do you feel like are just trying to keep in touch with their fans or maybe on the other side trying on stay on top of the alpha on the different networks I think it's a it's a good mix of both I think probably right now a bit more on the keeping in touch side it's it's unclear where value will acre I think for web3 social and these protocols I think people see yep as a way to kind of engage with all of them but I think to your point you know we're we're in a place right now where these web3 social Protocols are quite composable and interoperable but we haven't seen certain ones win out and so it's very common for these creators to have like we said about Bist and others to have some of their audience in each of these places right and and to be able to engage with all them from one place is enormous Advantage I would say our killer feature is definitely being able to create content and engage with that audience but we see at scale an opportunity to just continue to be able to like go the audience and see the alpha that's coming from that you know I think what's what a really great example here is like we have a lot of users that were you know forecaster has had a few like really strong weeks and a lot of our users ahead of those weeks has have been able to kind of build audiences on forecaster have a footprint on forecaster before it's gotten larger and potentially even be rewarded for that right in the context of the social F conversation that we're having you know I think dgen is a good example of a meme coin that's come out of foraster that a lot of our users whose primary client or primary protocol wasn't forecaster were able to participate in kind of by using yep and so I think from a Creator angle there's been some interesting Alpha for users who primarily use yep and I think that's really awesome yeah no so I I love that so um you know I I like to think about these different networks is they have superpowers um uh the current superpower of lens for example is everything can be financialized everything can be an nft if you want it to be an nft and it can be a free or it can be a paid Min um uh but it's like native to everything financialization um and and it's almost like the tech is the superpower um while uh uh farcaster on the other side um you know there's good argument that the superpower was the original Network the original people who were inv invited into those spes to create like both A vibe and to give it some sort of weird like Mission alignment um for for me I think foraster uh definitely focused very heavily on bu other builders um to me it feels very much like the 2017 2018 conversations we could have in maybe 2018 2019 conversations we could have on crypto Twitter that got lost when we turned into the the car sales lot the casino yeah but uh uh Lucas I mean what are your what are your kind of thoughts on the different networks and and how you see those U maybe the superpowers of those yeah I mean I think the social graph right now of all these networks is really unique um I think the superpower right now for farcaster was the frames launch and like that was an entirely new primitive that allowed you to interact with an application like pods and mint a podcast directly you know without leaving the application without signing a transaction without paying for gas and those unique Primitives um that are enabled by web3 social I think are the superpowers and we're starting to just uh we're going down that Tech tree right now of just like exploring the possibilities of web 3 social and you know the composability of these social graphs that are being created on these platforms yeah I think that's interesting so um you know just to to really like hit that nail on the head again one more time you you had mentioned dun uh dun was uh given out to people who were in The Dun channel on farcaster and so there was an an alpha opportunity literally an airdrop um I think another good example of that is early Bas announcements and early based features were only given and announced on foraster first um I think it's more of an underexplored um uh use case for networks um a lot of people want to cross poost but I think there's actually really good opportunities to be laser focused on what you're asking those networks to do um uh and and I think Bas did a really good interesting example of that um you know alens the side I I like Lind too um I like the tech I think they've been they've made they made a lot of really big ethos bets that these things will all be on chain and everything should be meable um but you know with that comes with it obviously scalability problems um but you know from from you know if I think about the lind Community um especially in the context of PODS um it's very much like how do we get musicians using this how do we get people who create content to be able to make money um on that um curious like uh yep uh how do you see um people's ability when the creators keep their audiences is there a thought or a process to could they make money using something like yep well I I think I see making money as secondary to achieving I think their core goal was to which is to like reach Their audience and have distribution you know I really want to double click the value of of frames and what we've seen around them over the last couple of weeks I mean I think across the board any project that's built a frame that's kind of kind of relevant has seen like a 5x 10x like increase in their conversion so to the pods example for those that don't know frames they're basically links with actions that you can do directly from forecaster or any forecaster client uh lens has a version of this called open actions but the forecaster one has taken off more because of what Lawson said the network on foraster has been very kind of Builder oriented and so what we've seen is people kind of use these frames and Leverage The distribution and the convenience of a oneclick action from a social app uh to to have just way higher conversion or whatever they're trying to achieve so I think the best example I like to point to is like paragraph and mirror which are essentially like publication platforms web three publication platforms have built out frames that essentially allow you to kind of read the article like if you share an article Link in a cast in a post on foraster uh you can actually read that article directly from the post uh and also subscribe to that publication directly from the post and I think a lot of those uh Publications are seeing a multiple like a multiple increase in the number of people converting to to become subscribers of their publication because of frames uh and I think probably the same is true with with pods the same is true with examples like free mints of various kinds um certainly the case is for yep we've done a few interesting frames in the context of farcaster uh that have had multiples of increase in in conversion versus what we were doing where you kind of had to go click on the link go to the website do something there um and so I think there's we're really at the tip of the iceberg of what can be done there you know I'm surprised we haven't seen a lot of like weight weight list submissions where you could join a weight list directly from a frame things like that I think across the board just multiples of conversion is is really interesting yep did the opposite skip the weight list be able to get into yep with with a frame which I loved right um you know so I'm I'm going to wrap the frames and we'll get I want to do an intro for for James here um I think the one thing that frames really brought that it was super interesting is just reducing the clicks for a call to action that alone leads to Serious conversion um and so super interested to see frames be successful along with uh things like mods and and other groups who are working on protocols that could take it across other networks MH um okay with that um I do want to make a quick introduction uh for James Young I I feel like the super panel for social fi and we do social house now United um I apologize for being full context here uh uh raah R protocol started off very social fi um basically you could make money from nfts going viral and you engaging with those nfts early um launched in the bar market and we've seen that social fi really falls down in bare markets and so we move towards web through social um being able to store data on nfts as third parties and cure those nfts um in a very similar way uh near and yep started very heavily with your protocol uh and rewarding people to curate cool on the internet um with the protocol and uh being able to help bring that up to people in the in the in the yep Community um if other people thought that that was great content then you would get reward for that um and and then the move towards the app really more towards the web 3 social decentralization composability um kind of thought process um and so now we have James up here um James Young founder of collab land uh the largest token gating uh uh uh product in the space um uh really if you've been in a Discord server ever or Telegram in crypto you've used collab land um uh who's also working on a upcoming release on a very interesting social F project thank you and I apologize for being late um so kind of coming in out of context here um I can give you a background of yeah so we were I did intros you can say some about that but we what we were talking about as you L up to it basically who are your power users and are they getting something that's social F out of it or maybe something that's the more of the ethos of composability keeping in touch with your networks yeah so you know I've been thinking about a deep the last couple of days here knowing that I was going to be here and wanting to say something meaningful and insightful and so with that what really and this is just kind of raw off the top of my head here and I would love to get feedback on this as well what I really come to understand is so let me give some background collab land because I come from like the Dow tooling space right just like organizational nerds and I thought that collab land first was just going to be a dow tool we called it Dow Ops and then like Co happen and then you know the defi summer Co and then like these this nft thing happened and it was actually my co-founder who is my wife we've never worked together but we've been together for almost 30 years and she's like there's something here on like nfts I don't know what it is and he's like you shouldn't do or Focus focus on DS you should focus more on these like nfts cuz like she she's not like natively crypto she knew it adjacent to me and she was like I get this I don't get like Dows and voting and all that kind of stuff uh and so you know most of our communities are nft communities and now when I reflect back on that I'm like what happened and I recently watched this uh documentary on hype beast and what I realized was like oh like Co lockdown happened at the kind of same time when all this reselling and supreme kind of was fizzling out and I feel like there is this like art streetwear cultural aspect that just because of covid shifted online and gravitated more toward nfts so when I look at it like I'm wearing Doodles it's like a status thing and when I look at Social I don't and and when I think about it I don't think about it from like a platform perspective CU collab we don't have our own platform we're on Telegram and Discord I think of it more as like social as in like status and it's like and we did these like collab land documentaries and one was with mintage and the guy on the interview mitches was like yeah I can buy like a Gucci jacket or I can for a couple Grand or I can like equip my avatar and I know it's from Gucci and more people are going to see it online right especially during covid then they're going to see it in IRL so you know when we think now fast forward Co is over you know what's happening I think you know what I'm seeing in terms of of Social and you got to be really careful here because you can get a lot of scammers and pump and dumpers but I think you're going to see in kind of when I look at the cabl statistics like January was our largest month in terms of growth then Peak bull wow but it's it and the growth is but the growth is not happening just on one chain so that's why it's a little bit more I think difficult to kind of have a higher level perspective on it but I do see more of these like meme coins and I never really got it but I think now with this like cultural streetwear post blur world I still do believe in nfts but I think there is this cohort of people that are going to come into this next cycle goal on a social status based off of the meme coins that they get into early on and that's what we're trying to do with our new product Tel I love that and I think like to tying back to your point Lawson earlier was like Creator monetization right um and the one thing that's I think is interesting I'm going to tie this back to James's point in a second um but like monetization exists right now for media and for all this stuff like people are making bank off sponsorships so the monetization piece of like web through social and social fi is like it's nice it's a new way to monetize that's not invasive from sponsors anyone can do it that's really powerful um the really big piece that doesn't exist today is the status schem and the social graph um when you're watching a YouTube video you have no way to express your affinity for that piece of content um and you have no way to raise your hand and be like I love this and I have no way to prove that I was here on day one and what putting the media on chain enables is is allowing the individuals to express their affinity for that Creator and gain some status with that Creator you know you can then see that your top collector the person that's been there since day one has collected every single piece of content whether it be $5 or $50 you know you get this granual granular social graph of your biggest fans and that to me is like the biggest unlock of like web 3 social and social fi is being able to identify your fan base and not just monetize them because that exists already I I love this so so this is actually I want to take us to our our second question um in uh uh uh traditional social media Twitter Facebook um and even in web 3 social um we have follow buttons and like buttons and the video game of social is make number go up of how many people can I follow how many people can follow me and how viral a post I can make it go and so the status is follow accounts and a post going viral 15 minutes of fame is the post going viral um and famous is follow count um and so as we move towards uh maybe or financialized things um uh where maybe it's not uh the number of followers or likes um uh it's it's literally uh a number like you've reached a market cap of something you're in uh and you're provably in it early and then this idea of of meme coins and uh socialy being a mechanism to identify status both at you or early um but literally a number that's spendable uh money you've made money I I think it's like I think of it as like skin in the game you're putting your money literally where your mouth is online because otherwise you can say oh yeah I like this love that blah blah blah blah blah or you can bot your likes and your retweets but it's very hard and if you're doing that with your own Capital people are doing those kind of games but it's just it's not as sustainable um so so I I think that there's going to be different types of signals that are going to be rooted in like number go up kind of signals I think it's going to be this next unlock when we have this Narrative of like staking and reaking and yield because what if you're you know able to get some eth lock it up and you're just playing with the yield so it's kind of free money in a way and I think that could help with this Narrative of like okay like I'm learning about crypto and I think but is that social take take it social there what about that social so that that's not social but that frees up the psychological mind space to play games you're not investing you're not like you're not trading cuz I I think like this next cycle if I were to and this is what this hypothesis that we're vetting out through our new app Tel friends is that this new type of Trader is not going to look at Candlestick charts right they're they're not doing ta they're more like collectors like nft collectors like Beanie Baby collectors but they're doing it in this like rare digital kind of or scarce digital asset they're coming in and read in the room and and buying things investing in things because of that and and it's more of a social signal yeah right and so I think that I don't know exactly what it looks like but that's is what it seems like is shaping up here because you have onboarding I think kind of solved in a way with like a account abstraction and there's a lot of teams working on it you have other types of Technology like pasy so you don't have to be so precious about like your seed phrase and your private key anymore uh so I think that there's going to be a whole another unlock of new participants in this cycle so let's let's dig more into the status element of it um sure I'd love to yeah maybe near explain where you feel like the status is coming out of this game and what and how how does that add value to hanging out online yeah so I think there's two other forms of status we really haven't spoken about here one that I think collab land really fits into which is access like I think there's a notion of like fomo about not being a part of a specific community that the token gating mechanism really ties into and I think speaks to the kind of the true fans mechanism but also speaking to what Lucas said I think earliness earliness is a form of status that web 3 is very good at and web 3 social is really good at you have proof onchain that you were early on something that ends up being valuable and that value can happen in a financial sense but I think it can happen in any sense right I mean a good example of this in the context of web3 social is like people really highly value their very low fids on forecaster or lens IDs meaning I was the first 500 users and I think Zuckerberg really picked up on this with Instagram threads where they're actually showing which number user you were when you joined threads directly in your Instagram account and I think it's it's trying to touch into this kind of like hipster I was in before it was cool energy that The Ledger is insanely good at like proving it went immediately to 100 million though so it's like how could you tell difference well I was 200,000 I was there on the first 20 minutes and you know if that be ends up becoming the next Twitter that's a really cool thing to have but I think I I kind of see free mints in this new wave as like checkpoints of the metaverse it's like I was there at this time here's the record of it and now there's also some programmable art to go with that and I think that's kind of a very powerful what's even more powerful what's even more powerful is that that is now composable so I can now reward the first 100 FID people and it's completely public like some reaking protocol could reward you know the early far are users and they don't have to ask permission they don't need like that data is freely available and that fully composable public data set is like such a huge unlock that doesn't exist anywhere and that is like for me the bull case of all of this it's really interesting it just had a a thought there like there is this whole thing where like 120 pages of satoshi's like you know writings came out in the open and he's like if Bitcoin fails the real use case that it will fit into is a Tim stamp totally you had to be there like you had if you if you have a Bitcoin wallet from 2010 that is the ultimate Flex because it's one that cannot be faked right and I think people highly value status symbols that cannot be faked that's I believe why Bill Gates is trying very hard to get a Nobel Prize because I think a majority of the world believes that that's impossible to fake but there's a cost to that right one of my favorite things about the Bitcoin blockchain is like uh addresses did start with a three a one start with a B um I I love like looking at the the address is change over time and kind of like that weird signal as well right I want to go back to the status thing one quick and then go uh to the next question or just I guess make one comment then we'll move on to it um I think I think the interesting thing about status that was in reference to the last questions panel it's all public um when we're talking about status here this isn't this a lot of this does definitely feel like uh quick Buck a moments some time on the internet um but it's not um uh you know before when you wanted to figure out how to be successful you had to go talk to successful people and Trust whatever the hell that they were telling you was true you you literally couldn't see the Playbook you just had to hear it Through the Grapevine um what's cool about the playbook in crypto is you can see it on the Chain um and you can repeat it and you can repeat it without talking to anybody and I think what's I think the most exciting thing about the financialization and just everything that's happening in the space is it's it's basically like there are Peaks and valleys of wealth and people all over the world um but crypto and social fi I think is going to be a really good tool to to level the Peaks and valleys it's going to there's going to be a lot of wealth and there already is a lot of wealth um people who are users of raous protocol are also users of of yubs protocol um these are people who are all over the world in countries uh that it's it's hard to make any amount of money and and socialy and crypto is bringing them up it's leveling them okay so I'm I'm going to switch over I'm going send this next question uh We've briefly talked about it um already but this question starts off for Lucas um there was a meme that was especially popular during uh the bare market after as the nft market crashed um uh and it became very hard to to sell any nfts to anybody um freem mats freem mints became wildly popular or even uh mints that were so cheap they they felt free um zor did it probably the best 0 777 eth um and so for Lucas um I think part of your primary value pitch for pods is it's just another Revenue stream and um and so the meme uh that happened during the bare Market was uh uh minting and and specifically free minting is the new like um is that hurting our value proposition to get new users not at all so I think the completely free mints maybe um but like the Zora model of like a micro payment for a mint is very sustainable um in the sense that let's talk free mints first and then get into the Zoro one maybe just address the free mint pure free and then get into the zor one no cuz like to the earlier discussion like even a free mint still gives you uh social signal or status that you were there um so that still has value to creators and honestly like when I talk to a lot of podcasts like the monetization piece is one part of it and really like that social graph status thing of understanding who's there and who's listening and who's engaging with your content is like the piece that doesn't like I'm I'm broken record right now but like that is the piece that like gets creators fired up because that doesn't exist so even in a free mint world you know that still has value because you're able to build a social graph of your audience of who's engaging with you so um but that said you know I think Zora has the right model of like can we do micro payments share the revenue with the Creator so that there's still Revenue being generated for the crowd why don't you maybe quickly explain how the Zora model works yeah so Zora charges a flat fee of triple 0777 eth um which is about $2 right now uh so it's actually gone up quite a bit since you know eth is mooning let's go um add another zero yeah and then uh so what happens there is that Zora charges that flat fee um and then they end up splitting that fee amongst all of the participants so if you were the Creator there you're earning a slice if you referred the mint you're earning a slice if you were the first minor which is actually a really unique mechanism so if you were the first person to Mint that nft and you're actually bringing it on chain you're so you're paying the gas fee with that mint you're actually earning a slice of all future mints um so that really micro payment of like a dollar $2 and then sharing it with the people that are engaging is like such a powerful model that you know is becoming pretty ubiquitous you know among creators right now I love this I'll pass you a second um when you say engaging I actually want to break that one down um I think the thing that social does um today um primarily is it tends to feel a single player game um but crypto helps start to make it feel like a multiplayer game um Dows are people doing something together um and the the zor model is a multiplayer game uh people up and down the stack both other app developers who integrate uh something like uh Zora um to also people who are are sharing something kind of like sharing a link um uh I'm curious does anybody have any kind of thoughts on the multiplayer game aspect of of of that 100 % I mean I think that that referral mechanism and the attribution around it solves a lot of problems that I think webt social hasn't been able to solve and I mean we at y up actually when you cross poost a link from Zora manifold anybody El and anywhere else we'll actually uh reference you as the referral address tied to that post so that if anybody ends up minting that nft because of your post on any of these platforms you'll actually get credit for referring other people to it um and I think that credit alongside with that Mony monetary return are both kind of really important and valuable to that end uh I would also say you know I I think it's interesting that I fully agree with everything Lucas said uh and I think free mins have done nothing but support and help web3 social what I have learned from my artist friends is how Zora's deviation into that Focus which I think has been highly profitable has hurt the oneof one nfts and the Art Space that was emerging and I think maybe we have a terminology challenge within web3 social in terms of how we bump against these other use cases of nfts and we have to think about okay how how can art retain its advantage and how it leverages something like nfts uh even though we're now using it as something that looks much more like aik to your point and I think that's valuable right so finding that middle ground sure so so I I want to go back to Lucas again on this question um uh uh I'm a person with a podcast I'm coming to you you're saying I can make uh uh revenue or uh maybe even anything you're streaming right right um traditionally when it's streamed in uh in web 2 they make money from the stream um to get access to listening listening to a lot of things um you've paid some service normally or you're watching ads on YouTube um H how do you how do you see again the free Min specifically there's no money being made um uh but it's available to be streamed for free do you feel do you hear that push back any um that it's everyone can consume this without pain no I think that's the beauty of it like having maximum Distribution on the content itself is still extremely powerful getting as many eyeballs in front of it is still very powerful and that you know does translate to a free mint you know even if it's completely free you know maybe if it's forever then like some of that value dissipates but if it's a free mint completely free for 7 days you know that value will still kind of acrew as long as that video is still getting millions of millions of views on the back end only 100,000 people you know might own that nft and there's some sort of speculative value maybe on the social F social five side of things you know that can ACR to those collectors so yeah I would say and like even on the back end of that like you can start earning royalties on those free mints um so no I don't think it really hurts at all and there a great example of that is like for example Dan Romero the co-founder of farcaster has released a few free mints one of which was like a farcaster OG nft it was free and only around two people were even able to Mint it but now I think it's going on a floor price of like 2 and a half eth or something very extreme right now I also getting air drops if you have that you got air drops right a bunch of people got air drops based on that a bunch of people are getting air drops on on low fids right and so I think just earliness again is like a very hard thing to fake and people who value that uh are able to show that value in the context of these nfts I think a large large majority of them may end up having no Financial value and just be like a stamp of like I was there to the time standpoint about Bitcoin uh but the very few ones that do kind of represent the time in place that that has high status we'll see that value emerge in the price of the NF I I think that it's really interesting because you know on the tech side what's happening is there like emergence of l3s where transactions are you know micro pennies so there is a game on foraster called crop.

XYZ every single action is like on chain so I think what you'll see is a second order effect that you know instead of these graphs and these events being siloed into the centralized platforms anyone can recompose this network right so what I'm doing listening to something may not be valuable at the very beginning but maybe a year down the line an Advertiser or someone sees that that's the target demo and now you have a composable graph that's just on the shared database right so I think that there's something there to this open graph social concept that I don't in the current lens of monetization we we may we may miss if we don't keep an open mind in terms of what like social really means and I think social means this interconnectedness to either Med Media or to each other or to different Affinity groups later on and anyone permissionless can like grab chunks of that at any time and so I think that then makes me think that like the your address and identity is going to be kind of this next piece and I think that's kind of what is happening at yup here right like tying your different social identities to like a wallet address I think that there's something there that you know becomes valuable at scale and it's hard to just see at it right now cuz we're so early and I think there's enormous amount of equality that comes from that like I would rather leave in a world where people are making money and building status based on their actions rather than maybe what they look like or what background they come from or what like social Community like in in a traditional sense they're tied to but more like this is what I've done this represents me this is unchangeable no matter who would like to miss miss construe this as being something else and that's just feels like a very kind of fair and Equitable social network in various forms yeah it it's interesting that you say that too cu the second order of fact is is that identity is something that you you cannot like really for you internally as a myself I can identify as whatever different people but my race my age all of that is identity put it on me but on chain I can be 100% intentional about my actions speak for themselves right yeah I like yeah so you it's a cons it's reconstruction of identity not based off of history but based off of how I want the world to perceive me it's it I I yeah it's a little esoteric but I think I love the you're writing your own story um it's again back to that in a similar sense of the leviz flattening of the curves of the world um it's doing the same thing for people who don't uh don't look the way they don't look like they should be successful and there's lots of studies that the way you look um can affect your entire career path um and I love that like there there's a lot of leviz in that Anon culture and just really just internet culture as well um so so we're getting uh uh got a few minutes left um I want to get to our last question and then open it up for for panels um so this one question starts off for for near um and then want ibody jump in um uh one of the things the last panel was talking about was uh suji mentioned he was worried that in web 3 we were going to do we were going to make the same mistakes they made you know somewhat recently um where everyone was so focused on um winning in the decentralization that they they fought each other to death and and the and the the movement died it died on the vine um and so um in the space um there's definitely a lot of really great social protocols uh lens and faras are being the largest um but like we've done this before we we have uh EOS uh uh Doo um there's been a lot of uh uh things even in the Bitcoin community that was attempting to do this um and uh it feels like we've have momentum this time and it's really great um the funding's there um and High Caliber teams to build great apps are there um and so the question to you near is um uh where we have decentralized social protocols at the base um but we're starting to I feel like potentially see especially in the foraster warple warcast warcaster model um a potential winner take all Approach at the centralized app layer um are we still decentralized if that happens and and what can we do to make sure it doesn't happen uh I I think that's happening to some extent I mean this stuff is really tiny it it's hard to it's hard to kind of Judge warp casts on what's worked really well for them which is to focus on their client right I mean they've built I would say the probably best consumer app in web3 Social and it's led to the to the returns that we've seen as as another forecaster client we're enormously happy to see the total user base of forecaster users 10x or 100x just solely because of foraster I do believe that like decentralization is is the choice to opt in and the ability to opt out of these networks and these these apps so I do believe that if if Dan Romero or the team at warcast was making like really like dictatorial type decisions maybe the type we see Elon make around like Shadow banning Tesla futters and stuff like that that that people would rise up and build a different client and the ability to do so and that enough is decentralized for them to do so I would point to some really interesting approaches to try to solve this stuff though like I'm a very big fan of what blue sky is doing with their content moderation approach so blue sky basically has instead of one for you feed an ecosystem essentially an app store free feeds that you can decide to subscribe to and on the flip side on the content moderation they have what are called moderation lists which sort of function like uh Twitter lists but in the block sense where instead of you having to like block each individual user or kind of trust Blue Sky the app to decide who who and what to shadowban you can subscribe to someone else's algorithm that is doing a really good job of let's say blocking all this large set of users that are talking about things in a certain way or have certain type of content that you as a user don't want and so when you join something like blue sky there's a default block list that you're subscribed to that's what the team is choosing but you have the ability to opt out of that block list and choose a different block list that you want to subscribe to that's an enormous advantage and I really see as like a fair a fair playing field in terms of how this stuff plays out certainly something that we had y plan on adopting at scale and I think that kind of user choice and and and win by decentralization is the solution to these things and something that I know the foraster community takes very seriously I would agree with that a whole yeah wholeheartedly um in the sense that like as long as the protocol like you can opt out I think it's totally fine and fair for there to be a centralization factor you know for warp cast like there's so many benefits of the centralization piece that we you know they can Implement um you know that maybe is not like loved by the majority of of people that are like hardcore decentralization people but the important part is that the protocol underneath is completely decentralized and you can always opt out of the warp cast thing or and and build your own client that is you know tailored to you know better ideals that's not what Dan Romero decides right sure sure I for the people who maybe aren't on foraster or um uh maybe we should maybe unpack this a little bit um uh nerfing um uh uh dwr founder of forecaster who also runs the warcaster client um uh will talk about and tell people you're going to get nerfed in the algorithm if you're doing in his opinion bad behavior maybe a lowquality reply wow wow um again I I want to press this point um uh I feel like personally that uh uh there's a risk of creating an echo chamber on farcaster when no one's willing to push back against that um if we continue to allow um uh uh founders of protocols like this to do things that feel dictator like um uh maybe that's okay right now because oh they're just building it and like we'll turn a blind eye and we get it we're Founders um but is it is it setting us up to be able to have the debate when we need to have the debate and it really matters um or is that point are they going to do it again we're going to be okay because oh they did it before well I think it's it's hard to compare it to web to social where at any attempt to build a separate client for something like Twitter or Instagram the entire client was nerfed like there was no attempt to really try to compete and here there's like a real checks and balances like for example oh yep we don't Nerf those same users so some if you if you do have a low low low quality reply and Dan and that team decide to Nerf you you at yep we we see that as a suggestion when we look at that API that might be something we agree with and also want to Nerf but it's not something that by default we have to and I strongly think that if and the other thing to remember I think for for every user complaining that that that the nerfing is too centralizing there's a hundred users that are that are churning meaning they're stopping to use any forecaster client because of the low quality those low quality replies or I think in many cases even more like controversial things in the context of like misinformation pornography stuff like that that that users don't want to see and so I I do strongly believe that you know if there was demand for that content that they're choosing to stop we would very quickly see clients emerge I think the market share that warcast has in relation to these other clients actually shrinking not growing and I think that's a very important kind of point to make in this in this thing I think that will continue to be the case especially as we see completely different mediums like an Instagram looking thing where whereas warcast is kind of more Twitter Reddit I think that's going to be like a very interesting uh impact here uh and and lastly I just say like you know users having the choice I think is the most important like markets have a way of correcting themselves I think the forecaster team would not be making decisions that they think users don't want at scale and just because I as a forecaster client don't get to make those decisions for warcast now the crowd now the crowd's potentially taking rights from someone right like we have a Bill of Rights and we have we have individual rights uh in in the meat space for a reason um and so I think one of the biggest risk here is the crowd dictating individual rights and we' make the same mistakes that we've already seen occur in human history I kind of have an interesting take and I think that the central ization is okay you don't want decentralization for decentralization's sake because I think that whatever happens with warcast at the end of the day I can take my graph with me mhm and I think that goes back to like everything being on chain eventually I think next cycle things are going to be cheap enough maybe not this cycle but next cycle things are going to be cheap enough where everything is on chain whether it's a an L3 or just verifiable credentials a sign messages it may not be on a blockchain but it's verifiable right and so you can take that with you and anyone can like use that and so This Moment In Time Warp cast is the thing but later on it may not be but the underlying graph is something that like cuz on on Facebook or on X I can't take my graph with me that I think that is important distinction there I think we're going to see a lot of clients for specific audiences that want certain content right like I believe in a world where like Reddit and Twitter were decentralized Reddit and Twitter like I don't know if many people know but a large percentage of that content is porn like I think Twitter may be like 20% porn I I'm fully confident that yeah it's very high yeah sarcastic he's being sarcastic um I strongly believe that if Twitter was a protocol there would be a porn client there would just be a client for those that want that content and it would I think there would be a crypto Twitter client I think there would be a sports Twitter client and and those things would start to have their own decision- making around content moderation that isn't just a yes no but like is this relevant to what we're trying to serve in the same way that warcast is doing now all right all right I'm going to get a hold of this uh super panel we have 10 minutes left um I do want to give time for people to ask questions um uh n n not here has the microphone if you have any questions for the panel please come up here and if you want to direct it to one of us or to the group just let us know thank you we can keep ship posting here you know we do all keep going is this going to be a pod by the way uh are we recording this we are we can we can do let's put this yeah I want to be the first mint though don't don't try to front run me thank you for uh uh I'm here the question is uh around actually moderation and uh talking about social 5 versus web 3 social do you see any opportunities to use like reward mechanisms to drive like users to Auto moderate or help with the moderation itself so leveraging the casino like gamification for basically making the app whatever better for that specific Community yeah I would love to on the upep side we we have a token and that token actually rewards people not just for earliness but good taste and so I think in the context of moderation like if you're early to say that something is of value or not value you'll actually be rewarded on yep for that and I see that as a form of moderation But ultimately I think leaving that up to the user I really like what blue sky is doing here and you could see people monetizing around that like here's my moderation list that 20% of Blue Sky subscribes to and now I'm going to charge $4.99 for that for access to that moderation list and that users would actually pay those kinds of things yeah I was just going to add that like oh uh I forgot it my bad so um I think that this is a great game to play because you know if you get the incentive designed correct and you have that sustainable model I think that's what we're all looking for something that can meet shortterm kind of like okay this content is relevant for me but also sustains in the long term and I think we're going to have a whole generation of kids that are you know grew up playing an iPad that have game design thinking from like a very early age and you're going to see a lot of these experiments I'm super excited to see how we can get this incentive alignment because really I think that's what you know web 3 crypto whatever you want to call it is it's like instead of everyone going inside and playing a a video game the video game economics are now in the real world so I think there's that blurring and there's going to be some someone some kid that is like you know 4 years old right now playing on his iPad thinking about you know innately these kind of things old enough to be able to in a permissionless way kind of have a novel incentive mechanism for moderation I I remembered my point and it was um you know there's no reason why that shouldn't be a thing and to the earlier discussion of like opening up moderation to become a multiplayer game is probably a really powerful primitive that will like really help um any of these social clients and it's it's totally possible like you have the eth address you you can reward these people you know inherently for good actions um so I hope that that happens you know sometime soon because multiplayer moderation would probably be like really powerful I want to oh just want to make a caveat that like wealth is not the same thing as social value content and I think both bitcloud and friend Tech have shown us this both of their feeds I would argue are some of the worst content moderated feeds cuz whales aren't necessarily good at creating tweets those things don't go hand in hand so just tying it to a monetary value is not really going to give us the answer we need to find a stronger mechanism that might reward the right people but that isn't just tied to how much money you're willing to stake or how much money you're you can put on the table Yeah finalization of moderation alone is a huge mistake it has to have some social aspects as well some between Wikipedia and a financialized thing needs to probably be where we're at yeah but like people would do you know great moderation if they got the cool moderator badge you know that only people got right like you can bake that into it I wasn't saying that it necessarily has to be financialized but there can also be you know there's very strong social rewards that you can do around that and there's a whole can of worms when it comes to Ai and like tireless moderation tools now that can exist based off of you know kind of predictive analysis and intent so 100% to to near and and blue sky you said I I think I think we're going to head towards a world of diversity of algorithms um the client is just one thing that we can be diverse on diversity of algorithms and uh user uh trained algorithms where there uh I think it's going to probably over time uh lead to where most of the moderation actually occurs um while the signals it's digesting um is just informing it but that was a really great question thank you for that question definitely who here is still active on frch which which one friend Tech friend tech oh no anyone any friend Tech uh people here go ahead can't hear yeah the mic's not working the mic's not working but we're going to relay it I'm I got the gist of the question another great question so her question was um moderation as a multiplayer sport um and and specifically in the reference um to moderation um uh where we're effectively self-regulating in in in her in her words um and I think the question she was asking is is self-regulation and uh enough uh uh in in in an online world where uh uh she gave an example where uh U um online a woman in a metaverse was raped and is that even rape um and so that's a very specific example um that I'm not aware of but I think it's a good question what does everybody think well I think it this is like a good point for decentralized social in my opinion which is like I think government should definitely step in and regulate social and other apps in general like I mean it's such a big part of everybody's lives I I I fully expect governments to do that I think the advantage of having a decentralized protocol beneath that is that you can have a lot more variance in that censorship meaning we should not be censoring American users based on China's standards of what things should be censored but China's users should be able to use the same underlying social graph and content graph in the context of their app and so I think it actually puts even more of an accountability on the clients because they're the ones who are making kind of unilateral decisions on what's being shown on that specific client um and but also at the same time allows for more variety and diversity because across the world different governments have different standards for for this form of content moderation yeah I was just going to say that I think that is kind of to the earlier discussion of like the decentralized protocol what n was saying and the centralized client like that's kind of on the client to set those guidelines of like what is okay and what's not because you know what I think is okay might not necessarily you know be the same thing that near thinks is okay that James thinks is okay and Lawson thinks is okay so obviously like a pure free-to-play you know multiplayer moderation doesn't necessarily work but with guidelines from like some sort of centralized client you know that becomes more powerful right um so yeah I think that's a I think it's a good good place to end it great question um all right thank you all for coming out to our panel web through social vers socialy I am uh Lawson Lawson FM we have James Young up here um collab L and tell friends near with yep yep. and Lucas with pods um check out all of our products we appreciate you and feel free to come up and ask any of us questions uh happy to chat uh make sure toit the Pod when it comes out the let's do a selfie over here all right hello how's everyon doing good have you been drinking water okay make sure to get dehydrated um so I want to tell you about my social media feeds because it's really relevant to the next topic is a couple couple weeks ago during the the Super Bowl time my feet is mysteriously full of Taylor Swift dating the football player it just it's everywhere if I go to Tik Tok if I go to Twitter if I go to even my Chinese social media platform it's it's full of the content homogeneous content and lately during East Denver time I was trying to go back to crypto Twitter to find out some interesting events and people to get to know to or or events to attend my Twitter is full of doing content because I really want to watch doing to my favorite character is Tim Shalom and you know zanda so this is actually introduced to the next topic which is about algorithm and ranking in our social feed um I was reading this New Yorker article called why internet is boring now which says we're leaving the pool internet where we have agent and actively pulling content pulling topics and pulling people into our digital World we're now in the push era where we've been pushed to see many stuff we might not intend to see but they can maximize our dopamine stimulation in our neuros system so the next topics actually relate to this and actually really like the topic name is called building my space and for you pages on decentralized on sorry I'm G to do it again building Myspace and for you pages with decentralized ID where it's going to be moderated uh by my fantastic colleague homing who is the co-founder of NEX ID which is the aggregator of uh variety of decentralized identities uh on page and where you can go to web 3. bio to check it out and we also have Leo from mat tree sahil from Comm 3 Labs uh J Jen yuong from web. as well as ETI from turban uh uh from uh dynamic.

XYZ sorry about uh mispronunciation okay let's give them a round of applause um so guys please take over the stage hello check yeah just like a guitarist I was going to say the mic is right in our face yeah it's a podcast type uh how do you guys feel like um exciting yeah let's do it let's do it that's it um so this is the identity panel so we have uh some of our speaker so I'm homing uh I'm I'm the co-founder of NEX ID which is doing the identity Pro identity management protocol for um like for AI agents for uh the wallet also for the web to hando so basically uh we're doing a new approach and doing a new narrative and uh here's Jen uh web from web o ad from uh like Dynamic and um uh sorry Leo from uh MRI MRI yeah materal and uh sahill from karmas yeah maybe we can just give a quick intro from yeah for sure maybe I'll go first um uh I'm Zen I one of the co- W th off I hope everybody's having a good time in Denver it's a bit cold for me to be honest yeah uh we're we're deleting wall as a service provider um today powering some Brands you guys know and love including animoca safe McDonald's Universal Studios so on so forth um we uh and we're just excited to be here you know yeah cool hi everyone can you guys hear me okay yeah oh sweet okay perfect uh I'm eai from Dynamic uh we essentially do web three authentication so if you go into Stark net in the last drop or if you go into iyk or sound. XYZ or any of those sites and you click log in that entire experience is powered by dynamic or do or pudgy Penguins uh so you click login and whether you have a wallet or you don't have a wallet we kind of handle that we handle user management uh we handle authorization uh pretty much anything you need behind that login button my name is Leo I am from my Tre Network what we're primarily doing at MIT tree is incentivizing interoperability in social media so it's a type of architecture that breaks the win or take all Dynamic that we have in social media so that we can incentivize applications to actually want to interoperate with one another and uh and want to work on it um as you can imagine the identity layer is very near and dear to us uh as it relates to as it relates to social media and one of the things that uh we're specifically working on at the moment is implementing decentralized Community graphs which are kind of like social graphs but different in the sense that they enable us to represent communities um and and membership in communities in a way that it's that that's loose rather than binary you might be part partially a member or fully a member or anywhere along the Spectrum and the governance around that which is allowing ing community members to vote on under members level of membership and and that's where uh identity and reputation systems become extreme extremely important uh as well as Cil resistance um and and and so uh uh this is all this is all very at the core of uh of what we're doing um hey everyone my name is sahil and I'm from Karma 3 Labs um and we're building a decentralized reputation protocol uh so I I love the the topic and the theme mypace and for you I think one of the earliest use cases that we're seeing is that really blockchains or social graph protocols like forecaster or lens have an open data open social graph layer and when you have that then you have the ability to really create custom algorithm layers where developers and users can actually create their own personalized feeds ranking systems they don't have to deal with Spam uh so we're building the compute layer which can power uh these rank ring and recommendation systems for web3 social for onchain communities uh who need uh you know to distinguish between who's a reputable uh person in the community versus a cibil or a spammer so yeah we're in the early days uh and building out a protocol which we'll which we'll share more about so since web stre is natur uh like naturally something with a crypto but I think five of us project like we never launch a token yet so I'm just a real curious like Jen and dynamic like it maybe you guys are partnership together before like doing the MPC wallet implementation and I'm just really curious like how's the like implementation going on and also how do you guys feel like selling the like the onboarding SDK to the to the Enterprises because uh I think to me when I'm talking to more like web the web two companies it's going to be pretty hard like to just convince them uh to do something more with web3 and also to just do the implement yeah so I think um this I really resonate with what you've been saying this cycle especially you know in uh in the 2022 cycle uh for us things the a lot of the growth that we saw and we felt was driven from web 2 companies primarily moving into web 3 all that interest large Brands really wanting and The Innovation Labs wanting to you know try things out um we have been with this cycle we have been seeing that growth as well but the growth definitely is not coming from the Enterprise segment anymore um the Enterprise segment is actually like still very cautious in particular and it's I think it's a combination of like you know the high interest rates the tech layoffs and then like AI basically being the poster child that every Innovation lab really needs to take you know you can't really as a member of like Enterprise get budget for for like a 20-man team do something on crypto at this point yeah I think to your point that what we've seen isn't necessarily growth in Enterprise versus growth in a bunch of startups that are trying to abstract away crypto and to build an experience that is kind of web to in the front uh in kind of crypto behind the scenes so what we're seeing is a lot of kind of growth in you know venmo like applications they are trying to do inter cross country stable coin type transfers uh where there Wallets on both sides or there's off on both sides but an end user doesn't necessarily need to know it's crypto right so we're seeing this like interesting crypto enabled stack uh that abstracts away crypto completely on the front end uh but has all of these kind of capabilities on the back end we're seeing a lot of that so a lot of these startups they are being built whether it's you know um again physical digital experiences like iyk where you you know you scan for those that don't know it's a really cool company you kind of scan a physical kind of NFC chip get a digital experience so that is the microphone okay by the way closer CH is this better yeah okay um so so we're seeing a lot of folks try to build those experiences not necessarily just Enterprises trying to do like a if they do to your point it's more of a kind of a side project innovation teams versus like a core integration so that's kind of the difference for from the last last cycle yeah so I also like talked to sah before because we are also doing a identity layer like identity data also the social graph data so uh we were talking about the part partnership like but I think sahill the karma they are doing something really awesome like they can just use our data to doing some algorithm I think it's kind of like the different approach like some of our like we are doing the like to to web 2 and or we can just directly to do something to web 3 or the unchain data so how do you feel like the future of the data like is like does all the identity will be just onchain or uh it's going to be the like kind of dynamic it's going to be so per my like per my perspective it's going to be three kind of different things maybe AI agents like they can be the identity um also your wallets which is going to be the financial identity and which also we can't just have the web to Identity we can use the OS and uh have the user on board so I really curious like what are you guys doing recently and uh yeah no absolutely so I think the most important thing which has been our thesis and mental model while we're building karmma 3 Labs is how can we address problems in the web 3 context and the web 3 context is you have open social graphs like for caster and lens today there'll be many thousands of of these graphs that can be created over time you have blockchain data which is open you have users who have the sovereignity to control their actions they own the private keys right so within this context if people have to have consumer experiences we need things like what you know II and what we're seeing with web3 o having safe onboarding of users but then the next layer is how do we make relevant experiences for users based on their data which is ly accessible web 2 got this really right Google used page rank for indexing the web and solving search social media companies built up recommendation engines you can see Facebook Tik Tok really Mining and controlling the data so in order to create relevant experiences for users in web 3 our mental model is we need to solve these problems but with a open stack so we think a lot about an open algorithm an open ranking layer for powering social and consumer experiences so in the last one year a lot of our focus is where are those ecosystems like foraster lens metamask optimism which are open communities and they need a ranking a recommendation layer let's work with them let's build open tools open- Source public infrastructure which can help developers actually create a safe environment for users so that's how we think about solving problems in web 3 which could not be solved in web 2 and then need this Computing infra even with AI agents how do you trust One agent over the other right and there's a lot of security attack vectors that you have to think about when solving s so I think a lot of our head is in in a very geeky way go and solve for a compute system which provides verifiable computation on onchain data so that third third party developers can build amazing experiences so so that's how I see in in the next 18 months a lot of innovation in Social and consumer especially with some of the tooling which is now being built out uh but this ranking recommendation is a key piece for web 2 it was important to get a billion users to interact with some of these consumer apps web3 we're far away from that but we know we need to build these tools before we even get there so so that's how we're thinking about what what kind of problems to tackle at karmat 3 and and this year we're moving a little bit from whatever we learned on working with these use case Partners how do we solidify that into a generalizable protocol so that anything third party can use these apis can create their own algorithms without having to ask permissions from a centralized gatekeeper so actually I really love what you guys are working on and we're we're very much on the same team here of trying to solve the same problems um I I love the the page rank approach I think and I think you're in this context you're calling it IG rank is that right yeah igen trust igen trust okay um yeah no that's that's that's a really cool way of of adapting that um I'm curious how how because we've been thinking about the same problem of how do you how do you make sure that people end up with unique accounts rather than creating mult multiple ones so so that's actually a very good question and I think this is the right kind of audience to think about it I think a lot of times we think about hey you'll have embedded wallets how do you tie how basic composability breaks in some way right when you have to create a social graph of one user that may have app specific wallets uh and I I think we're we're not trying to solve that problem I I I do think we have to think hard about how this world would would exist and grow but I think we need need some thinking together what tools will come up to where people might self identify hey this is my did but these are my 10 different EAS attached to a did and it makes sense for me to connect these EAS to one did so that I can get better experiences but it's opt in right Google or Apple or Facebook doesn't control that data about me so I think I don't have an answer but that's how I at least think about it today I I I I agree with that I think that's definitely part of the solution which is how do we incentivize people to not create duplicate accounts because linking it all to One account gives you a better experience and gives you a higher level of reputation and Trust to the point that you kind of harming Yourself by doing duplicates at least in most cases in some cases you'll still you know we'll still have the problem of people creating duplicates and one small example is today I can create 10 accounts on Twitter but I might only acrew a reputation on one account and it it's not like if I want to actually if I want people to read what I say I will go to the account which has the biggest blast radius or impact radius versus to an non account which not many people follow right so so these are like Web Two problems also we have to think hard about I think I think it's a very good like it's a very good and active discussion topic that we have pretty much daily um around exactly what you said which is how do you how do you move for instance siloed embedded wallets into Global embedded wallet now I think the first thing is to think about whether you really have to right there's some use cases in which you really don't right so for instance if we think about the decentralized venmo use case case then then really I don't care that my I have multiple identities I just care that I have an account and I can transfer money to you it doesn't have to be connected the resistance comes from the amount of money you have in the account and you can't double spend so yeah that's exactly right right so like that's use case number one where I don't necessarily care uh there's a second kind of bucket which is actually I don't have one identity I have identities right I have my gaming identity I have my social identity and I have my worker identity and they're sometimes separate so in that sense I think okay we might have like three or four embedded wallets or three or four wallets uh where we share identities but then to your point okay but how do you make a not 50 right like that's the problem and then there there's a uh first Shameless plug I'm actually doing a talk on this on Friday so please come listen but it's when when ex I have no idea uh sometime on Friday just show up show up on Friday just show up on Friday and it'll be there be uh yeah just show just wait and then uh but but you know what we're seeing is is there's several approaches um for how you can do this right you can do this one approach for instance is the forecaster approach which is you have a hub which is your identity Hub and then you link a bunch of these wallets to your identity Hub right so that is that is an approach that we're you know we're seeing folks think about and obviously it looks like farcaster whether explicitly or implicitly is thinking about it by adding connect your salana wallet and connect your evm wallet and verify multiple addresses that is an approach a second approach is start with global meaning you log in on website a or log in on website B and you get the same uh embedded wallet or the same thing regardless of whether you want to or not and and so there are like these really interesting uh kind of different paths we can go down as an industry for how to resolve this I I wish I had an answer I don't necessarily do I do have some I am very bullish on the the foraster approach to things which is you I it is easier to build your identity around the place you already spend your time versus try to convince you to spend your time in a new place and so in by H farcaster for instance having the inertia of being the Town Square and the place where you spend your time you might have three forecaster accounts you're putting like Twitter but they might be your hub for three identities where you can connect multiple things whether they're branded wallets or embedded wallets yeah oh that's great I I do feel like back to WEP to because the single SEL is really good and identifiers like Google or even the Twitter it's just so convenient and like the Twitter or Facebook they have the single s now but this based on your social is naturally have your social graph identity graph but for Google it's kind of like it's kind of like the works to it like you so everyone has Gmail so that's why you can just naturally use Gmail to create as many things as you want but like maybe back to web one or web zero there's so many different identities I think single Center solved kind of like the solution just give the one identifier like for just the logging everything but by the way just on that point like even within web 2 you pretty much have like five identifiers right because we all have our Gmail but we also all have Facebook and we sometimes log in with Facebook and we all have apple if you're an iOS user and so you log in with apple and so even there and we might have Steam and you might log into games with steam so even there you actually don't have one single sign on provider you have like five yeah that's possible so uh so per my understanding maybe the future is going to be like the AI agents also going to just get into your data like I'm just uh thinking about how we can just protect our data like there's so many privacy sensitive data like to your credit card info how we can just let your AI agent to access your data and some like given maybe the session key key then revoke the session key like temporarily to access your data Maybe I'm thinking something like this so I mean I for one I absolutely agree with II in that like identity is fragmented and it was fragmented and is fragmented in web 2 if if that's the case already it I see no reason why like there there there's no evidence on why consult validation will occur in web 3 as well in particular um and and I think identity is a little bit like a catch 22 uh especially in kind of like crypto and most uh even in like web 2 like kyc providers wanting to do like an aggregated identity it's a catch 20y too because often people talk about identity and the all initially was actually open authentication for for the sake of like self- Sovereign digital identity but it became SSO only because is the same thing people which kind of came up with oo was like okay we want self- Sovereign ownership but at the end of the day the largest use case for oaf was just SSO and to use your Google account to log in to maintain One account in particular because that's where people at the end of the day like identity doesn't matter until you get the distribution it it it's it's it's not the other way around right foraster and reason why we find it exciting is yes they have a nice distributed like session key setup in particular they have nice read write properties in their identity system but the only reason why we're talking about it lens also has something that's pretty cool uh but the reason why we talk more about faras not lens is because like Bas has more users at this point in time actually using it it's like it's it's it's uh yeah so I mean I just think it's more of like what's metamask going to integrate right what's what's what's what what the wallet providers going to do what what are the people with Tams at this point going to be doing um I can see recently there's more social like a web stre social apps they're just implementing the wallet directly into your social accounts maybe you can just use NPC wallet then just uh like loging to another uh like log into another new platform maybe this can be the new identifiers to just the unified everything but MPC wallet in itself are app scoped right so how do you get that across yeah so I think there's a there's a problem like under my like Perman understand cuz uh like the magic link the webs re like you guys are all doing the NPC wallet but when I'm using like mag. NPC oh yeah okay yeah but uh but anyway there's some so many NPC servers there are so many like NPC wallets like competitors now and uh when you're using the same Google accounts or same emails you just to create like so many different wallets I think it's kind of like uh for the users kind of like bugging bugging themselves like what's the what's the kind of difference because I'm using the same Google accounts but it's just creating the different wallets how we can just manage it I think Dynamics trying to solve this problem yeah I look we we we're thinking through it but it's a it's a non it's a non trivial problem it's not necessarily A non-trivial engineering problem I'm assuming correct me if wrong you know this stuff better I'm assuming you can globally scope an NPC with an if frame and kind of a single origin or thing of uh approaches there but it's more like I keep thinking about the analogy of if I log into my Amazon account right with my Google and I buy something and then I log into my target account and log in with the same Google and I see my Amazon purchases that is super weak weird as an experience that is like a it's a non it's not a technical problem as much as a ux and like education problem of of so in in you know when you log into Google there's a very clear you know expectation setting that Google does with what is shared and what isn't shared and you know as as far as as much as you know I've obviously like hubis that Dynamic is going to be an extremely successful company and so is everyone else here Google has like a billion login like billion Gmail users or two billion at this point and so what's that yeah more they're the identity provider let's not kid ourselves right like them and Facebook and Instagram are the identity providers uh and they're going to remain the identity providers for a very long time and so it's around solving the experience I think globally while using them versus trying to like come up with a new identity provider method which as far to your point like I'm I'm a huge fan of farcaster please follow me by the way uh just itai at farcaster uh but they have like 200,000 users 500,000 users like this is um you know it's still not 2 three 4 billion uh and so that we should like all these like uh you know Global wallets or Identity or things of that sort we should just take with the grain of salt of like still a small industry type thing and yeah I think I I definitely agree with I there because eventually if you go back Google and Facebook became ID providers because they had distribution cuz people were there right and if farcaster and some other utility apps become the place where most people spend their time then that becomes their kind of place uh to build identity from but the cool part here it's not controlled by one company right you can take your social graph away uh and use it in any other way and I think although a Counterpoint is to to to your uh comparison of Amazon account and Target accounts and my purchases I think the beauty of web 3 is composability you could take your reputation or your activity from one place to another uh which is not a new thing for example Airline mild programs also use your your reputation with Marriotts of the world or 10 other places and they compose your repeti to give you some loyalty programs right so how do air drops happen air drops happen by developers saying hey you're reputable here you're reputable there because you did a here B there C there and I know that because it's on chain so let me actually bootstrap your reputation in my ecosystem or Community by using your existing identity and reputation right so the conversation becomes less about global identifiers but more about localized kind of reputation graph graphs in a way right of course which is scary it's open which is a different conversation altogether but it's also maybe it's a feature and not a bug because first time we have an open data layer which which kind of makes us combine and bring this composability I'm not sure if you guys have heard of uh have you guys heard of mastone Maston Maston no no spelled that backwards no I can't it it was it was a it was basically Ally it it's it's I think it came up about 8 years ago in particular um it's they they vly hate crypto the team um but they are basically farcaster uh without like the blockchain component of the commitments being put on chain um so it's open social graph you they they have like their Twitter clones in particular uh they got quite a bit of traction in like the SF community like like four five years ago but then now it's mainly used for like you know unfortunately like you know dubious nefarious activities um you know like but so I I I look at that and then I look at faras though and I just feel like the open social graph isn't a driving Factor if it was Mone would have been popular or maybe it's just timing as well and crowd but you know it's like I it's like I think it's just to make it easier to access but you're right this is another factor to run yeah I I look I mean most most users just they don't care that much about decentralization right we the driving Factor has to be a better product and and and more Innovation um but I I completely agree with you sahil that um we can build a better better identity systems right ultimately Google and Facebook uh they have the distribution but they're they're terrible identity providers especially Google like oh great you signed on with your Gmail that doesn't tell me anything about you and how easy is it to create a fake Gmail right so uh a what's great is that we can vampire attack them by using these single sign on the starting points and then we can build we can build something much better uh that does have reputation systems and that does create like you say composability and competition we want competition and interoperability at all these different layers whether we're talking about identity whether we're talking about social media applications and so on they all be interoperable and we should not have one you know win or take all one or win or take most kind of kind of outcomes like like we did in web 2 so um I don't I don't think just saying you know Google or Facebook uh have got this covered is uh is an acceptable solution uh at all but but it's a great starting point we can we can build off of I I think to your point I I I think maybe to clarify I don't think right Google or Facebook have it covered versus necess I think foraster is a good example for instance uh of the value proposition provides is a vertical Town Square for crypto right that that is the use case the killer use case is essentially vertical Town Square for crypto and so in the same way to your point what I do think will happen is we'll move from a the top five identity providers like the Facebook Google Instagram which is Facebook and app and yeah Twitter to maybe uh 50 identity providers where and that might be powered by wallets for instance right it might be that Robin Hood is your financial identity right and forecaster is your crypto identity provider and um you know you might have uh your steam is your gaming identity provider and so um I do think there's going to be this evolution of additional identity providers that I hope actually use crypto rails to your point on cryp composability I don't think we'll go to like 5,000 right uh but I I I definitely I I think we'll definitely see a login with Robin Hood over time that is your Hub to your point shares more than your email absolutely it could share your kyc right like because there's so many different layers to Identity so you're Absol you're absolutely right it you know it's like is it verifying that you're human is it verifying that you've been kyc is it verifying your uh physical location that you live in a certain country or whatever and all these can then uh you know they can be aggregated by certain uh by certain platforms but again those don't need to those can be competing with one another those don't need to be just one win or take all so I think it's actually cool that you brought that up coinbase might give Robin Hood a run for their money because coinbase recently launched attestations that coinbase.com issues to any wallet on base that your K kyc was already performed yeah and you're able to trade crypto in these countries that's beautiful that's Robin Hood for you but coinbase with with the right kind of privacy protection right hey that's a centralized company they have the data sh they have to run a service in a regulated way but they can extend that to your eoa right and and that's kind of the beauty of it too like we'll see even things like attestations become really good tools to enable such things as well 100% right to your point 100% like we'll we'll see I really hope right two years ago I think Circle and coinbase did the Varity program and I think this is the iteration of that or like a version a future version of that I I struggle with kyc specifically um as the attestation versus other attestations mostly because there's an an inherent incentive for a company to do its own kyc so it can show that it did it own kyc right um and so there's like this weird compliance incentive there but I'm with you I I I completely agree I think like uh um EAS for instance is like a phenomenal platform that I hope we all leverage for this stuff uh or put stuff on ceramic Network or or do that type those typ of Absolut short answerers absolutely I think the observation you made is the critical one which is today with Gmail you pretty much share your email address it should be a much deeper type of like identity handshake uh for what is transferred in a privacy preserving manner yeah and and it youed you touched on a really good point which is the incentive systems here around kyc specifically but I think more broadly I would uh put this question out to to all of you guys which is monetization of the identity layer it it's going to be a hard one to monetize and and I want I want to actually hear all your guys thoughts on this cuz uh maybe yeah um I think like for some reason so we are doing the identity for free like some boarding sdq for free and like we are partnering with uh Karma 3 so we just want to like maybe monetize through the data and that's kind of like the like the business maybe they wanted and I think yeah it's pretty hard to just just only providing the onboarding SDK to just convince uh the Enterprise or the dabs just adopt it and just like giving like the original way like uh in the web two like Aero or OCT they're just a charging for uh usage or something so yeah I think maybe you guys know more because you guys talk to Enterprise more so I mean I think the biggest problem or the biggest problem of monetizing authentication uh is is that like you know the efficiencies through as a user I only want to authenticate once and my ideal is I authenticate once into any app I do kyc once into any app and I'm done that's my internet connection for life right I never do this again that's the ideal because that's the ideal user experience it's the ideal like also like you could argue like data and privacy controls because only one of my data exists out there um it's that that's the idea that we all strive for right can we have the same ideal to uh e Denver side events I just put in my bio once to real man maybe just use this one this is St that use case right um but but uh that that's that's the ideal and um and then I think and that's the ideal that we strive for that's why we like to open protocols that's the value that we ultimately tried to bring through these open protocols um but then when when when you take a look at when you compare like web 3 monetization of like um identity and when we take a look first when we take a look at web 2 if we take a very naive lens to web two and just go okay look kyc people are charging a doar to $2 per pop right you know like wouldn't you as an application want to pay maybe just 50 cents and not do the kyc wouldn't you want to do do that um but then when you take a deeper look into the industry you actually realize that these kyc providers themselves are already actually doing this if if there are two KY if there are two companies using the same kyc provider they only make the user do it once they they have these not all of them but a lot of them do have these fundamental inherent efficiencies Al bit yes in a centralized manner but they already do have these efficienc and that's the market price of what is like of identities like being charged at already right in that in that in that context how do you prevent reselling so I pay 50 cents to you you attest the kyc to me and then now I have that at the station and I go resell it to 50 other guys for one penny a piece uh I mean the way they do it is like data liability like you know just basic SAS contracts and all in a very centralized you're not allowed to resell but but in web 3 yeah naturally like how how would you do that right like because ownership of the credential there's designated verifier signatures I'm not sure vitalic had a post on that which basically I can tell you you believe it but you can't share it using but it doesn't really work um uh but I think yeah I mean they practical open question yeah yeah they're practical technical problems like you say but I think the point that I was uh just trying to get at is that web 2 itself is also attempting this so like us attempting this is also not unique and it's quite I've been trying I don't have an answer here but I've just come when I dive into this problem I just realized that such so much more so much harder to bring out a a 10x product that improves on top of web 2 today because people are already actively trying to do this Al bit in less open manners and to your point by the way on that front I don't know if any web 2 I don't know if the personas or the cognos of the world um you know or atics or whatever when they go and sell uh to your point whether they do this or not I don't think it's a sales proposition I don't think anyone actually cares right what folks care about talk about it they don't talk about it right they talk about hey I can do this faster than my competitor I might save you a couple cents right I can do it with AI I can do whatever I can detect more type of but at the very basic level and I think we saw this I think there are a lot of companies two years ago that try to do onchain kyc and it's worth bringing them and and and talking I don't know enough but I I I I haven't seen for my lens uh do fractal ID does uh Bara yeah Civic yeah Civic EX uh that that might be doing uh really well it just um it's not I don't know if that's the value prop proposition they go to market with versus the value proposition of here's the here's the thing I'm actually solving for you uh which is you know making sure no one fraudulent goes through so that's this interesting thing we we we can solve this in web 3 does it help anyone we solve this in web 3 I don't know yeah so yeah I I think uh we are still waiting for the critical amount of users on any developer consumer app to learn like hey these are the pain points I can't run this infra without kyc Identity or or reputation compute and only that would be the litmus test to understand what is the monetization model I I think a little bit prematur still because we don't have scale yet do you guys think Mika is going to be that trigger what's going to be that trigger uh the markets and crypto assets Bill oh so like uh um in last year uh there there was this bill that the EU passed markets and crypto assets MAA um and uh basically in it comes into effect in January 2025 and basically almost all crypto applications that deal of have a blockchain attached deal of transactions will require kic AML to be published and distributed in Europe in particular in gen 2025 um oh I thought I yeah so like I I heard about mik I did not hear about that requirement and that's coming up fast yeah yeah and all of the kyc providers are talking about it like you know like ZK me ZK pass and all of those guys yeah ZK pass yeah yeah yeah so like I mean I I would it has the same effect as gdpr did on data protection I think that might be a trigger that that might be the use case that you're looking for that forces consumer applications to suddenly go like okay something you know needs to like it just drives adoption for for that right that identity use case I I think one place where we think a lot about value creation and potentially value capture for a protocol is what are the things that are going to just cost too much for a developer to do but are important for them to provide a useful experience right which is a very simple thing that anyone would think about in any startup not just crypto and in our scenario it is hey Google Facebook Apple so many consumer apps have a bunch of gpus they have a bunch of money they control the algorithms they control the computing power and they control the data but in web three the data is open and there are third party developers like all of us which are trying to create meaningful user experiences but everyone having to go and index data on the blockchain running compute to make sense of their data that's costly and that's a high friction thing so what if we could run a compute protocol which could solve ranking and reputation and people would just use you know be able to in almost like a no code way power amazing experiences using this infra so that's how I would think about mon I'm interested to hear your view on uh have you guys explored doing this like computation thing for capture that's a and connection we haven't tried yet but that's a great line of thought it's so like so recapture like cross sourcing like everyone just competing yeah that's that's maybe possible because I I I saw like many new projects they are just claiming they like decentralized Ai and or the decentralized huging phas so they're just providing the data or just providing the like clean data or sorted data then just for different like the uh platform they can just use the data to train their own model or something so I think that'll be interesting because uh uh each of the users they have their own identity like how they just provide the data to the trainer or to the to the to the model trainer yeah so um yeah so I'm still thinking about like how if we can just around a computational layer or maybe the Oracle they can just directly in and so let the data in and out like through the AI agent so maybe the AI agent can just autonomously run on chain to just run some algorithm or to to just interact with a smart contract and yeah basically I think I personally I believe that the future is going to be like the AI agents going to going to just do many things for us and automatically yeah have any has anybody else dived into capture apart from the AI use case AI Ed Case in what way like talk about capture like have you guys like um you know that's there was that was captured first launched by Google I'm just basically talking about like Doos prevention at this point like um what what prevention sorry what prevention Doss Yeahs prevention technically you could use something like the OS algorithm which we're basing our compute on where it was initially used is similar to your capture context it was used for decentralized file sharing networks back in5 where if you download files from a fil prone node Network on the internet you have to just quickly report back if you download a scam file or a or empty file Etc and there'll be an automated feed feedback loop which will rank every single peer in the network or every single node in the network and you could find malicious actors you can find bought Farms Etc so that could be applied in a way but of course I think it will be important to understand what would be the reputation heuristics or what would be this transitive I'm actually figure that from you because yes so so I think if there are so depending on what what use case do you find capture getting dsed and if we we if that data so I mean if we take a look at like web 2 today that data is primarily through like Edge node connections right like uh Amazon has their Edge nodes Cloud flare has their Edge nodes in particular websites like sign up to use these if you're using Amazon you set up your Waf and all that and then they basically collect all of these IP addresses which are connecting to all of their bare metal instances and then they from that run heuristics on it and then detect right it's a little bit of a machine learning trained model that they use with all the parameters that they have masked perhaps yeah and they just they I mean it's all private right they just apply their own and it's it's not just private it's like literally dynamic because it it it it it it they change it as you know it's a cat and mouse game right in particular um yeah I mean I I I was just I I was interested I was just interested to hear your thoughts whether you guys have explored that particular problem down to that not not yet I think so far we've gone deep in anything which where there's onchain data or open data even if it's on ceramic for example and it's peer-to-peer then we could really form a reputation graph we could compute on that graph and then create a ranking system of every single peer in the network so where this is useful is let's say I could rank any I could rank all smart contracts on any chain I could rank any nfts on any chain based off based on transitive transaction activity so because all of that data is open and you could form certain assumptions of what is Cam and not and and just run the algo but with capture we'll have to look deeper into what data is available right so so that's kind of why we haven't gone there yet but we've restricted ourselves to hey how do we solve for onchain reputation since that data is kind of open for for us what would you say is your largest use case right now today where you think the most fraction yeah I think there there are many layers so one layer is really like I was at the metamask security event today and really the big picture is how do you solve for software Security in a completely malicious environment like you know uh Snaps are coming out so metamask is going from a wallet to a platform a platform where it's almost like a execution environment people can ship code which is snaps now if you let anyone publish snaps pretty much like frames but frames right now don't touch your wallet keys right you see it's not a ecds a key but with snaps it's your wallet how do you prevent any malicious actor to publish a snap and and drain your funds so for that you need some kind of a reputation graph reputation system where you can endorse a snap from security research reputable people and people can report if there's a malicious activity happening and that feedback loop is fast it's trustworthy and it's resilient like right now how do we how do we figure out security attacks we go on Twitter all the crypto Twitter people we follow if someone says hey this smart contract was attacked right and this is billions of dollars worth of money lost I'm just talking about that use case where you need a some sort of a peer-to-peer reputation system to bring security measures into crypto and it's needed because it's kind of an open data some sorry go oh just just to clarification just to make sure I understand so they would do it essentially in a decentralized way where everyone can you know everyone can report that an app is a fraudulent sort of like a decentralized flagging of an app right and then if enough people do it over a short period of time and so great great question so everyone can go and report if there's a fraudulent app but everyone's voice is not the same because I might be a better security researcher but you might be even better than me and I if I want to just attack like dos a snap which might be safe I might spin up 100 ,000 wallets and say go and report that snap but guess what the reputation of each of those wallets is near zero because not enough trustworthy people trust or vouch for that user so this whole reporting system is community based but it cannot work without user reputation because otherwise it's dsed or civil prone right so and to build that you need peer-to-peer user attestations vouches using EAS or any other onchain or offchain attestation once you get that system rolling then you have a user reputation which can be used for reporting snaps for airdrops for any of those things so so that's kind of the fundamental layer that we're trying to in know in the stack you know build and also the cavat is reputation is context specific so I will trust a security Auditor's opinion about a fake snap or a frame more than uh just anyone who's active on social right so so that's kind of the thinking yeah yeah I I think that's a security is such a great use case uh and then you mentioned air drops one other one I was going to bring up is governance really online voting right and especially as we're building out these Community graphs uh being able to vote in communities and for for other people's levels of community membership it's really important that somebody can't create a bunch of fake accounts or duplicate accounts to increase the amount of voice they have by casting more votes uh and so um so but really anything that has to do with online voting is prone is prone to civil attacks so yeah and optimism alone as a chain is going to spend $100 million in rpgfan problem is they have to give away money in a distributed decentralized fashion who gets money and who gets to decide both these questions need that fundamental identity and reputation answer to how we use onchain data how we use impact metrics how we use peer-to-peer vouching all of the all of these are answers to it but even solving like just one chain having to spend $100 million that's that's exactly you know one of the use cases exactly yep right I think um we have 8 minutes left so uh since I'm not sure do we have still have the Q&A session or sorry do we have still still have the Q Q&A session or we just uh yeah go okay good yeah um yeah I think uh yeah thank you all for attending our um like a mini Summit and uh yeah you guys just um provided so many New Perspective and ideas to uh the Adin side yeah thank you so much thank you guys thank you so much for having us yeah thank you thank you so much om anybody oh there there's some okay that's cool that's cool yeah I um quick question so um how do we Define like different identities like for example I have my identity at my LinkedIn I have my identity amongst my you know college friends I I have identity amongst my colleagues you know these are all different kind of group of community but I have a different key a private key for um uh for lens protocol and I have different key for uh for Defi and how do we make sure that we cover like um identity as a as a person rather than just fragmented uh category I I can try to take a first stab at this uh you're not going to like the answer uh but we can I don't think we can I think it's going it's like forever going to be chaos uh because I I'll just again let's look at web 2 the way I use Gmail and apple login is going to be different than the way you you use it technically the same systems we're going to use it very differently and the way I used it a year ago is probably very different than the way I use it today so even within just me the way I Define my identity changes over time right and so and the way I have my Twitter identity is different and so I honestly I don't think we can I think it's like identity is a first it's identities right and I think inherently it's chaotic because a person is like evolved over time and not to get too philosophical a network of people evolves over time and so I I don't know if you can I think you can give tools I think they they're going to be more prominent identities I my answer is you really can't Define what is an identity yes I I I think I think that's right but I would I would draw a clear distinction between defining it and aggregating it uh so it's not fragmented right so it's like how do you define yourself as a person um that that sounds like a great essay in a philosophy 10 one class and one you'll never get to the bottom of but how do you aggregate yourself as a person well here I am right so so I think we can we can have a lot of different identities and they can still all be aggregated by certain by certain platforms as as those aggregated providers and then you they can attest for you that you have a certain number of followers on Twitter or that you've been kbed by this in this uh or or that you have a certain reputation in a certain Community giving you uh you know that that you're good at so and so that you're an expert on security or whatever it might be and all these things can be aggregated and you can choose what gets attested in what context as it's needed um without having to Define all of these things that's actually lot lot more philosophical and not really necessary yeah I I think uh my take on this is that uh and and this is a never-ending uh again not to sound philosophical like like all of us but this a never- ending spectrum between so there's two things one is a distinction between identity and reputation I think identity is a little bit more about hey this is who you are and I prove it and uh it's it defines you and it's defined by you in some way reputation is a little bit about what how other people are interacting with you what you're doing in that context and how you build that reputation right so you might have a great reputation amongst your colleagues in your work environment you might have a great reputation as a d farmer in in that environment or as a uh layer to governance Community voting person now they can exist separately and it's really context specific which one gets used if you want to combine and I think that's the philosophical kind of way to think about it is until unless it's required it doesn't matter but the context of which one like you know hey I if you want to go for a job you say hey talk to my colleagues I have good reputation if I want if you want to go for a uh designing protocol uh economics for a D5 protocol and you're a D5 farmer who's AC Creed a lot of reputation you'd say hey check out my reputation so so I think it'll be context specific that way uh to a lot of these points but but I also see identity and reputation a little bit different identity is a little bit more static reputation is a little bit more Dynamic uh no pun intended uh so yeah so that's another kind of way to think about it I I think it's just based on P like incentive like do the the users incentive or the platforms Inc incentive uh like for platforms Maybe they can just like combine all of your identities your uh personas together because they can just do the uh like marketing or the personalized ads uh but for users maybe you want to get airdrop from from the community maybe they like recently stet they just the test are you a like a good um so not only you can just uh so when you want to just get a St Stark net airdrop so you can try to use your like GitHub and you can try to use your uh ethereum like interaction they can just test or are you a good hacker are you uh like interact more with uh e are you eum Builder or are you just like one of the contributor to this Dark Knight so there are so many different like things uh so many different identities but based on your like incentive how like when you have the incentive you definitely want to combine together but you don't have it you want to just keep your privacy or keep it there so there's no incentive so keep it simple I think there's one more question yeah hello yeah uh more of a follow-up question of the previous one um so uh I absolutely agree with the the fact that you know as far as identity is concerned is very much about application context for example in you got a GitHub handle you got a Linkin handle so the question is in crypto right what what is the best application context um where we can just have a useful identity is it ens is it for defy um and the other side of the question is um say am I going to build a awesome aggregator right what should we use as the ID for the aggregator is a u address um or maybe extend that a little bit it it uh like uh maybe address for a smart contract wallet or or could it be enss so that's a like the two two question I want to ask the application context or and the actual ID we can use to aggregate user data or it could be did World address UNS I'm not sure so yeah that's the question I my lens is that it's going to be your identity in web 3 or like the way like the way you establish your identity in web 3 is going to be based is is going to arise from the apps use more most often on web 3 so I would I I would say let's look at the apps that have the most daily active users and the most time a person spends throughout the day in those apps that's your identity it's not ens right you can buy an ens name it's going to be um you know in web 3 it's either again going to be lens or forecaster it might be the nft marketplaces like magic Eden or an open SE where you spend a lot of your time or it might be you know one more version of that but it's the same way like why is Google your identity because it's tied to your Gmail and you're in your email all day and why is Instagram your identity because or Tik Tok can be your identity because you open and you start your day with that right and so I would say your web through identity will likely tie to that I would argue it's much more likely that um a foraster or a magic Eden become your identity versus a Unis swap where you might trade once a day or once every week versus uh might interact 10 times a day on a magic Eden might interact 100 times a day on the lens right so that that would be my argument for like where your identity would be rooted and then everything is just services on top of it so ans is just a service on top of it but my identity is not my s mys is just a very easy way for me to reflect my name on a magic Eden or um you know a forecaster that that's a little bit how I think about it all right uh time's up so thank you for attending yeah thanks for everyone for listone thank [Applause] you thank you everyone who are still staying here instead of going for dinner we have a 1 hour more of gray panel uh um and then we'll wrap up this mini Summit but before everyone's leaving um many panelist who attended mini Summit today will also be on social Wess day which is happening in Edge City on March 3rd so we will have a full day of events panels and variety of activities but we also have the most importantly the social Oneness hackathon so how how many of you know about social Wess day raise your hand if you know about social Wess day everyone attention okay great great if you don't know it now you know uh go on Luma uh search for or I can I can I can drop a QR code later so you can scan it and register for social Wess but many ogs in the website social space will be there uh on March 3rd okay uh without further Ado I'm going to invite all the panelists to be on the stage okay can you all come I know what I'll next so um one thing I love about web 3 is when you ask someone what are you doing web 3 or who do you know in web3 they usually give you a very very different answer because web 3 has a lot of different facets so the first time when I was told I'm going to moderate this panel I was trying to find some similarity between all the panelists and I realized I really couldn't it's such an ectic panel with diversity of grade Builders and entrepreneurs here so the title of this panel is web three circles so can each of you introduce yourself the stuff you're building and also maybe give a one or two sentence of which Circle in web three you identified to be associated with so I guess I'll start with David hey um I'm David Fong um I'm currently working on frames Js and also open frames which is a way to do frames in any ecosystem um and then circle-wise I'm probably uh somewhat farcast related having been building Mafia something like that hey I'm Sean so I'm the CEO of Salis Sal is a um research driven SEC security firm so we do security audits uh as well as DC research and DC development um as in Circle I guess like whad hacking research a little bit of VC cuz I'm also involved in like investment as well hey hello I'm Joey from sending Labs so we build an instance messenger for the web3 so um I think we just help everyone can just own your social assets and or Community we fight for all the community manager can have ownership or your community so I think we provide infrastructure just like a carrier for the web stre and we also provide an IM messenger Style application for everyone you can use a w address to chat with each other hey hello testing so I'm Sandy from scroll I'm building a ZK evm layer 2 for ethereum called scroll and um prior to scroll I was in investing and I was in a I was a social entrepreneur and um the slightly unexpected thing I was also a um I was also a regulator so I bring a lot of diverse experience to this community building process which is super fun good to be here hi I'm Andreas I'm the co-founder of fers um I'm also finishing my PhD on um autonomous AI agents in hacking operations um and F ver just briefly is a trustless collaboration appli application platform uh so you can imagine notion or G Suite including G dos G drive and all that uh but decentralized and in a way that cannot rug its users ah Social Circles uh for the Social Circles I would say I'm in the angry activists uh part of crypto and unashamedly so um so you know if we talk a bit more about data privacy security and all that I'll get a bit red and uh stomp my feet awesome um I want to steal a question uh I heard from the other panel is I I think it's it's suitable for this diverse uh lineup of the panel which would be uh what kind of a cliche question but also could you guys could give me a really great answer which could be uh in the ideal World in 20 years uh how would you see yourself in that Ideal World and what's the trace of the ideal world would look like you go first yeah I I chose the wrong seat um what what what what what was the question again in 20 years what does the ideal world look like that I'm in yes that you're in like what what role you're going to play I I mean I got into decentralized social because I I thought that was the most broken part of the internet and the internet's sort of a social technology at heart um so would love to see uh barriers be removed from the internet and and have a more open internet specifically um would love to see um the decoupling of um of the network effects from the products um and I think Protocols are a great way to do that I think protocols like farcaster are very promising so we' love to help that happen on the internet in in whatever way I can be helpful can you be more specific like everyone use foraster in the future or like like you you see people on the street like multi- billion people use it or I I think protocols replacing um sort of corporate networks will lead to more consumer choices and more competition and that means better product experiences and that means all the downstream effects of that right like you know even dating apps if if there were open protocols for for that sort of marketplace you would have a lot more innovation you know more people would have great partners that they're happy with right so I I think the downstream effects are across all all things well in 20 years I guess first off hopefully we won't be taking over uh the world won't be taken over from from robots first and then um as a as a security practitioner I hope like to see more like people taking like uh security more seriously is I'm seeing like a lot of this like uh as a security auditor myself like I've seen a lot of these uh hacks happening in the space no matter if it's from Smart contract perspective or like from the frontend backend service side a lot of them can be dealt with if you have like a simple you know precaution and then like do your all do yourself you know risk assessment like carefully so um I would say like hopefully like not even 20 years I I would say like maybe in like nearly like 2 3 years later um like the idea would be like there is no need for us as security orders to be existed yeah of course like that is not uh running a security business that that's not good but like that's the idea what I'm looking at thank you okay so after 20 years I think um we wanted to be the um the carrier for the network States or the whole society because with think right now all the blockchain is a kind of banking system we help everyone to have your asset right you can control your or asset but I think for the human being communication is very important so we want to connect your mouse with your pocket so just like right now you use the IM Messengers or um some Messengers you also can just send message or even send the money I think in the future maybe everything just like you need to pay for the digital content like a music a movie or anything maybe in the future I think all the things we transfer from the messenger like you take photo or sh share some Just sh videos could be a nft or any kind of things so you can just tiping with or the digital assets so we help to build a carrier so everyone has a Messengers so you can send and receive and organize or your community because we think the web stre on the network State Community is very important because we could we call it a Vibe why build foral and why build them everyone is a family right so they get together to build something so I think the community is also a kind of social asset for all owners so like you own your community like whatever in this score or in telegram right now if you be B then you lose everything so I think we help everyone can hold this kind of asset in your wallet so just like the substack it's a kind of email subscript system but right now it's still very popular so I think within maybe next 20 years the things will be changed but the human being to communication Comm um communicate with each other will not change but in a different way um I think in 20 years um a lot of the um menial work and also operational work and repetitive work would hopefully be replaced and um hopefully more of us would be able to spend time with nature and entertaining each other and the kind of um work that requires empathy and forming human connections um will become the predominant use usage of our time and how we associate each other in this world I think um kind of this the the Social Circle you're in and um the social graph becomes both like onchain and offchain and hopefully people live in live in nature and kind of come together in organic kind of ways and in popup cities and um and I think people can manage their own like assets and ideas and um identity on chain in a way that is like um you know respectful of each other and um and and also there is kind of a a governance process where different cultures and and and different types of communities can can somewhat coexist yeah I really like that um it's a bit of the punk uh hippie uh soul that crypto actually has uh in it since the beginning um I would pretty much agree I think that we're definitely going into something that is much more Mutual Aid and and solidarity based in the next 20 years uh I think that a lot of the internet will be hashes uh I think cryptography will play a much bigger role in everybody's individual life I think people will be able to impose uh the terms of their interactions with the world through cryptographic tools that are easy to actually leverage uh rather than having to set up your uh your pgp and trying to figure out how you interact with people that don't have a public and private key um I think that a lot of uh the AI work that we're seeing today is probably going to be invalidated in a few years I don't think that we're going to continue with the add as much compute and data and parameters as you can in a model and it will figure out some World model uh so I think that we'll go into maybe something that is much more efficient um I think that people will walk around with a good set of cryptographic tools and AI agents that are personalized to their needs and uh and things like that I also agree with uh with you that um it will be a lot more protocols on the internet open protocols rather than big corporations that can just randomly decide to take away your right to your own personal data to your bank account to all those things so um yeah I definitely think that it will be a bit more of a free uh free world where you're your identity is uh naturally extended into the internet yeah um really appreciate the answers um and I um actually H want everyone to give some hot takes uh how many of you have forecaster here I think a lot raise your hand if you have farcaster um I think I was talking to a a very respected forecaster the other day and we're just basically talking about what's going to happen in the in the bull market uh and we came to this conclusion that forecaster could be uh an incubator for whatever is going to happen in this bull market because something called frames came out and you can do like a really really easy uh transaction or like airdrop or even token launch with a few line of code uh so I guess um I'm I'm uh David will be my Victim uh but as a as a forecaster Mafia um uh what do you what's your take on uh on this wave of meme coins on farcaster uh are you in it if you're in it like do you think the meme coins is polluting the vision you just gave me you know know the the world you want to see in 20 20 years uh how do you feel feel about this sure thank you um yeah I'm I'm in it uh I was the number five uh airdrop recipient of dgen the initial airdrop um I mean it's it's permissionless right so there's no way to prevent it um and and it was sort of a innovation in trying to incentivize Channel growth um and so I think we're going to see a lot more Channel tokens that align the community around a shared meme um and so I think I think meme coins are actually a very interesting technology for growth they're very simple to participate in um and they're very accessible and it's easy to share them um and so I think we're going to see a lot more of it in terms of whether it's helpful or hurtful um I I think there is a lot of Engagement farming in in the feeds now that is sort of harming the average user experience um and and apps will find antidotes to that um and so it's it's kind of inevitable in permissionless networks that there will be um sort of the the max cassino or Max exploitative plays by people to to get Max engagement farming um and so I I think that's sort of a healthy balance um and I I think most crypto products that succeed are are balance of of sort of the the missionaries and the the sort of mercenaries or or the sort of Casino people um and so I I I think it's fine um and and it's fun um I was I was reading I was reading Chris Dixon's book and he says there's two parties in crypto where is the computer party and there's a casino party uh but I think this division is probably a very confusing one and misleading one because I I see you as a computer person and a casino person at the same time maybe like everyone in this place uh coming to Denver were also embodied those two two features um I I think and the next question I can ask Sandy um is uh for for squirrel you you you're you're launching uh your evm uh and the social is such a uh a great area to grow your your ecosystem so what kind of social project you're expecting to uh to incubate on on scroll and what kind of innovation you eager to see on scroll um so I have a contrarian view on this one um I think the state of blockchain right now um it's going to be pretty hard to convince anybody to tweet or write twice on two different applications um in terms of information sharing there are plenty of web two applic applications that created a fantastic and seamless user experience and so the only reason that would motivate someone to be on a different application and open a different set of uiux and tweet to a new set of people is if there is a a kind of a value layer tied to it so I think you know fret is an example of that and I think forecaster has a lot of like Builder energy which is fantastic but I think a large percentage of people who are on Far forecaster myself included are somewhat there hoping for an airdrop and I think the I think it's important to kind of be realistic and embrace the nature of web 3 interaction and how it differs from purely information sharing and um if it's a i if if the nature of the Crux of web3 social is about kind of um like you you build something and then that Acres value and then the community you build a cruise value I think there are plenty of other um things on chain that can achieve these kind of these types of communication um but having said that there are quite a few kind of social projects attempts at on on on scroll and um we're keen to see how how how they grow so um I think the the super fluid team just launched something today on scroll um I think the goal is to um to to kind of um share um share Alpha and the te the the goal is to kind of um share kind of opportunities I think they're trying to solve the problem where um an ecosystem like scroll has something like a 100 or 200 projects it's still growing and new and and very very nent but it's already starting to have create a problem where users can't find the highest yield or can't find things to do so like I think all web 2 projects how no matter how big or small has like a landing page and an ecosystem page and it has to come up with some sort of formula of ranking which nobody really likes and it doesn't really help the right kind of users discover the right kind of projects so it's trying to solve that problem which I think is um perhaps a niche that needs to be filled I think um very excited about its launch and um and also just genuinely very excited to see kind of um the types of social products that are realistic about why people are on web 3 right now given the high onboard ing friction and if I can kind of interact for free why would I want to pay like any amount of gas to interact so whether that like what offsets that kind of friction and value I think I would love to see um more Builders kind of experiment in that space cool um I want to ask another question just following on Sandy's take about this hyper financialization I remember I entered a crypto space 2022 during East Denver so this is my third East Denver so I was uh definitely a newb uh back in 2022 whenever one need to take a covid test to go into the castle um to in order to get a a free swag into the booth um so during that bull market I probably paid three East for an nft um which is really sad um worst investment in my life but um for this for this bull market what's what's what's your fair I know a lot of entrepreneurs they scar they're scared of bull market so what's what's your attitude of this bull market anyone wants to take um the fear or excitement yeah I'll start with a with a fear the the fear is that uh um so I agree a lot of people are here for the value layer uh I think that it's important that we don't just close our eyes ignore that even if we're building social uh social applications that are leveraging Global consensus uh and blockchains basically uh but one of my fears is actually uh for that to overshadow a little bit a lot of the other value that you can retrieve from Global consensus from objective identity from uh uh from things like that and uh another big fear that just became much uh much more real is actually uh trfy organizations actually eating up a lot of uh what I consider the important culture of the space uh yes I'm very happy to see Bitcoin and ethereum pump today but I'm really afraid of Black Rock owning four out of five of the biggest mining uh firms um of Bitcoin of everyone in the crypto space maybe or every new entrance going through uh ETF uh to buy Bitcoin instead of even being a little bit exposed to public key private key why is it important why should you have a wallet always with you so I'm afraid that this uh Global adoption the excitement that is happening around the current bll market is actually great for the value maybe one of the most scary things that the space uh has had to deal with in a long time where you have big buck big uh um uh big regulators and uh uh big tech companies actually entering the space and telling us what the space should look like in the next five 20 years rather than us doing our thing like usual so that would be fear I would say and just to jump on something that you mentioned before with David I think forecaster is probably one of the most exciting things happening today in crypto uh for one simple reason it's to me or at least maybe it's a simplistic analogy but it feels like what happened in 2020 in the bom Market with uh everybody being excited with the composability of defi protocols you have first had the um compound then you had the so first maker then compound then Ur then a bunch of sushi and and stuff like that and I see that happening right now with the social side of crypto where a user on forecaster can also be a user on ferse simultaneously why because you know it leverages a smart contract of fers but the person stays where they want to be which is on their forecaster feed uh and that really it's we we're creating a feed where people can be in 10 different crypto places at the same time 10 different smart contracts while staying exactly where they want to be where the others are hanging out uh where they might get an opportunity for an airdrop Etc yeah I want to hear from Sean Joey what's your um sentiment about the bull market and because we have experiened um a lot of different Beer Market and po market so um I think we we start to build a startup company from um 2010 so at a time I think we can we can say we've come from the web too so I think the web 2 and web 3 they have um different style so first things you know in the previous version uh region and everyone say I wanted to change the world I wanted to build something so that was well on the web too but you see it finally like the Google Yahoo or every Tech Giant they say they don't be evil but they finally they control control everything they're the biggest evil so I think that was the the tradiction of web to developers but I think in web stre interesting things a lot of people say web stre they have a lot of a scammer they have a rock and pool and something but I feel interesting so every just true Builder they build something in the bare market and then they go up with the the the uh in in the bare Market but they go up in the bull market but in bull market they attract a lot of money energies so a lot of people maybe they they release some just air coin or narrative to get a lot of money but finally when they got the resource and money they feel oh I have the ability maybe I can change the world so every time a new idea new narrative and new scenes always come from the um the bull market and then finally maybe the next round a lot of just blow the bubbles and then they got a lot of lot of True Builders and keep doing the actually things so they build infrastructure they build a particle so give the next round a more opportunity and then the learning they can just have and teach the whole Builders and the whole market so I think I feel the whole web Street they the time is not measured by the air year or second or hour they calculate by the the candle bar they calculate by the regions so I think every bull market and Beer Market we just feel okay we we has passed one year and one generation so I think that was my insight yeah for me I I totally agree so basically the market I've been around the market since like 2015 so been through a few be a few Bulls so um well the Bulls like when there's hype there's going to be correction so like uh when there's hype like people start speculate trading and then there's a little bit of value create value creation and then it goes down when the bare Market start building again a lot more like useful stuff infrastructure coming out um so that's definitely like kind of like you know what what rad say in the in cycle so this is the crypto cycle and um like before I like when I first started in crypto I was a high frequency Trader so I do a lot of Quant quantity development uh one thing one advice I can get give everyone is that um always stay calm like it's good to be excited when you're trading when you're doing this and that but always like try to stay calm when you're doing anything uh because like uh having the too much excitement uh would actually um you know be bad for um you speculate trading and stuff like that and yeah so uh and I and I do agree with what uh what what he said just now uh about the TR five thing one reason I quit uh trading is because like I'm not that kind of person I'm not I don't have that DNA so I start to do more frary market and more secur stuff like start to protect people yeah and yeah so that's pretty much my tech thank you um I want to uh sort of um M make the conversation go back to to foraster uh David you mentioned that the meme coins could potentially Empower channels can you elaborate on that um and how how would you view uh channels and do you think channels on one particular client on forecaster could be who could be somehow Monopoly um or or like taking a lot of power from other builders who could potentially build a client um yeah I mean I I think channels are a great growth mechanism for a social protocol um so they kind of split up um the feed into a bunch of subcommunities that each can have their own culture their own sort of like key people that are pushing it forward that are popular in that ecosystem um and that's also the way in which um forecaster could reach um a non- crypto audience without them having to be exposed to crypto right you could create an app where all the crypto stuff is just hidden and you only see the you know the Food Channel and the fitness channel and and all the other channels that are non- crypto related um and then I I think tokens are just a great way to align the community right like currently there's sort of a moderation question of like how will content in channels be moderated who's going to do it um and there's some experiments happening where in order to post in a channel you have to like pay a dollar and then if you get kicked out you have to pay a dollar to post again um so it's a onetime fee but basically I think I think Channel tokens are are going to be massive um so we've seen this with dgen we're seeing this a little bit but you know channels are a distribution media it's a bit like um subscribing to someone's paragraph or or mirror where convincing someone to join your channel and using some sort of incentive mechanism to proliferate your channel and and get other people to promote it um I think tokens are most likely the way to do it and uh ER c20s are are easier than nfts in many ways um so I I think it's early days yeah uh so before this panel we were sitting on the couch and and talking about basically we we touched upon this one concern which is how to prevent forecaster from behaving evil and I think with you we also talked about the the acquisition of skiff uh being acquired by notion uh which was quite a shocking news for for a lot of uh you know decentralized buers and the cryptographers seeing this amazing gold child uh crypted information sharing system being acquired by you know this company where it's headquartered in San Francisco you know sort of controlled by a lot of um San Francisco regular tacos um so so I guess my question is for both of you like as a a a very influential uh a builder in certain ecosystem like both of you how would you hold a bigger platform or bigger ecosystem more accountable well um I've got a few ideas um just one thing that I remembered while David was talking about forecaster I I saw this statistic two days ago on forecaster that something like 30% of every forecaster user at some point tipped as someone indigen which is crazy you know you you have a app that actually got a lot of people excited even a bit outside of crypto I recommended it to my parents to be on foraster because there is a fitness channel um and uh it's crazy because they're being exposed to this thing that they receive for free and they can uh give to someone else for free as well and it creates this virtual cycle which is pretty cool unless you know pure speculation like we've had in the past so quickly on the channels uh now keeping big platforms accountable you mentioned uh don't be Evo or you mentioned don't be Evo uh you mentioned don't be Evo um I I really like I don't know who said it first in in crypto but the can't be evil so there are ways to actually impose um uh to some big companies uh some restrictions so in the European Union and Sandy as ex- regulator might know a little bit more than me on that but there is something called the right to exit uh it is incredibly important for EU citizen to be able to take all their data take their social graph and Port it from one platform to the other now enforcement has been pretty terrible uh but I really like the idea and I think that the things that all of us are building uh here are actually tools that kind of impose that on uh big companies or big Tech platforms like you're suggesting so I think that us or the crypto space building those types of Primitives that people can take use it as an identity or their main identity rather than email and whenever they log in onto this big platform uh instead of you know creating an entry on their database they're saying hey hey I already have my backpack with me uh here's my data here's what you should know about me here are my restrictions also here's what you can do with my data this is amazing a lot of people are building that in crypto let's see who's the first one to actually uh um get some big Enterprise clients uh uh to have that enabled or maybe we'll actually Force big Tech platforms to adopt our type of tech so pass phrase are a good bridge between those two spaces and an example of what could come about from uh the type of tech we're building and the type of big Tech that people rely on every day yeah okay um I think we still have 20 minutes is there like anything you would love to discuss if no we can maybe have the audience to ask some questions yeah yeah I just had one quick question for Sandy sorry I'm the blah blah blah blah guy here um but so first of all thank you for building on scroll you're welcome I was hoping when when you asked the question of who are you excited about on the scroll ecosystem you would say f verse but it's okay also very very excited about f verse you heard it here folks um shout out shout out to flowers yeah I need to some of the Builder Vibe energy yeah yeah yeah it's uh it's all dog fooding until things actually start start working on their own right at least in the crypto space that's the type of solidarity that is super natural to everyone here like everybody's going to recommend somebody else's project or build on 10 different projects and stack them up um so a quick question I had you you were mentioning that uh a lot of the crypto apps um should actually be a bit more honest with themselves and face the fact that a lot of people come for Value side of crypto and expose them potentially more to the fact that okay there is a gas cost that you need to pay for certain types of interactions uh I think I mostly agree but I also see a lot of the space going towards a model that would invalidate that almost uh with smart accounts with pay masters with subid of a lot of user transaction to get them to enjoy maybe some aspects of global consensus without the cost of yeah yeah that's that's a great question um I think the the the killer expansion phase for crypto will come when the end user doesn't need to deal with pass phases and doesn't need to deal with gas so gas is a major design bug but it exists for a reason it exists because you need to pay for proofs you need to pay for decentralization you need to pay for security there is a tradeoff and a very kind of quick descending order the more you extract the security away from the blockchain and the more you extract decentralization element the cheaper it could be I think salana has already demonstrated this and multiple l1s have also demonstrated this it's kind of this trade-off between decentralization security and scalability so without like so the are things that are like a major breakthrough like like a scientific breakthrough um like I think zkm in some sense is a it's pushing the design space forward and expanding the triangle and then there is the work of just extracting away the the security from the whole stack and and in order to make it cheaper and more palatable and um I think the you know if if you kind of use a different da use a different stack and extract some of this away the the cost can be negligible and then for key users and key use cases it is 100% possible to incentivize and pay for everything on the back and um but I think with all of these tradeoffs there is um you do pay for it eventually there's no such thing as like free things in the world so when when you when you question like where's the product and and and why am I getting this for free this is the same reason why like web 2 is happened like if you don't know like who's paying then you're the product you're the food there there is someone paying like when when when you're using a so-called web3 product and everything is for free either there's a major breakthrough that happen somewhere or somebody's paying for it and then they're paying for it with an incentive in mind and they're paying for it because they're after something else so I think it's very easy in a bull market to forget about these things and in a bare Market or when we're all like a little bit calmer um a little bit more rational um people tend to remember why we're in this place in the first place and I think we're heading towards a year of very very fast kind of new user on boarding and I think the race this on to like acquire new users and and somebody needs to kind of you know I think it's important that some entrepreneurs are trying to kind of push the boundaries while maintaining the principles of kind of why we're here and if you're not honest about kind of why someone would pay for gas then you're not going to get to the Crux of what web 3 can solve so I would very much like to forget about the gas problem it's our number one complaint in the community everyone thinks it could be cheaper and we're working as hard as we could to make everything cheaper and there's a road map to get to 10x 100x cheaper through like optimization and optimizing different side of the stack but if you're compromising security then I think there is a responsibility in terms of you know then then it's like a very different product okay I love it thank you well now I have a question for you uh what's the most exciting thing for you about squirrel um there are a few things actually uh first of all is uh the team um I think that am not trying to be a kiss ass here feel free love it but I I've met a few people people from the team uh I think so last year was my first e Denver uh and the scroll Booth was uh was buzzing uh and uh it was really cool because I was having completely different conversations that I was having in most of the conference uh mainly for one thing and I'm very biased uh they were telling me about privacy uh and this is something that's super core to what FIS is building so it's not something you hear uh enough of I would say in in crypto generally uh for understandable reasons uh so I know that it is under mind I don't know yet what's coming maybe at the uh blockchain layer for that but um it is something that I'm quite excited about the second is uh the scalability of ZK EVMS as I understand them means that the more users you have uh the further the cost will drop actually for for uh for those users and the gas costs and uh and uh all that at least this is how Val validum based uh uh blockchains work uh this is something super exciting for us because uh when you're not a financial application and your users don't come just like six times a week to do a swap and they actually come uh 50 times a day to send a document to someone to do an edit on a on a collab doc or whatever you need need uh more more transactions and transactions that can actually be bundled together that can maybe be represented through some attestations that can be more efficient Etc so scroll is a great place to test a lot of those things um but yeah the it's still it's still open question on which uh blockchain layer is ideal for social uh applications I would say yeah I see thanks for the answer do you have sure I I would take the other side of that I think I think what we've seen with farter frames particularly is that um people don't want to pay for things and there's a lot of like sponsored gas transactions that are very cheap on on l2s or being sponsored by base or pay Moses um and what we are seeing is there's there's like sponsored transactions for you know early engaged Community or some other criteria that's sort of like a civil proof um and then uh everyone else has to pay some gas fee or something and I think especially with social like if we want to reach the masses like it it needs to be free um and we're seeing business models where um clients can monetize more than more than they subsidize right so foraster has a registration fee as a sort of civil Pro protection but warp cast is is basically sponsoring that for uh a lot of like countries right now just based off their calculations of of uh being able to earn that back off of transaction fees and other fees um so I I would say especially in Social like I think gas fees shouldn't exist and a lot of the infrastructure shouldn't be onchain as a result right like parter is is largely offchain um I think I agree it's just that uh there's still the issue that uh Sandy was Raising cing that somebody is paying for it like we did two big forecaster campaigns we had over like almost 10K transactions uh 4,000 unique mentors and we took the cost uh and then we were very happy to get an email by the base team hey do you want to actually uh take arm money to subsidize what you just did uh which is great it is 15 pages of bureaucratic paperwork to get 0.2 e though uh so there is a cost somebody is saying that c no no shade to the B Team thank you for for subsidizing this uh it's just you know they are hidden cost here and there and yeah I I I'm not sure how much of it should be hidden um because it hides some part of you know incentives hidden uh hidden biases hidden objectives uh stuff like that so there is a fine line there somewhere um not sure where it is yeah okay let's open the floor to the audience um anyone has questions for our extraordinary panelists I guess everyone's just hungry who's hungry here okay uh that's give a round of applause to our our panelists uh and thank you for their great answers and now we can head to dinner thank you thanks