EBC22 | Building DeFi Protocols & DAOs

thank you guys that were amazing pitches great ideas it was exciting to to watch you now i want to welcome on stage our next panelists that are going to speak about two very very exciting topics we're gonna wait until everyone comes into the room because we have like a super hot topic and i guess a lot of people want to come in and and listen to it so on stage we will have four panelists that will speak about building d5 protocols and taos so guys thank you thank you guys it's great to see that it will be a full house my name is magnus jones i am the nordic blockchain and innovationally that ey ernst young been in this space since 2015 and working with among others d-file players and also dowels style foundations and that whole ecosystem we have a great set of panelists here but just before we start the introduction round it would be interesting to hear about you guys how many here knows what d5 is actually some hands and then on the dow side how many has a fair overview of that not that many and again down to home many has played with e5 solutions who has actually used d5 yeah good and how many is building in here in this room building d5 solutions yeah cool i think we had a good audience yeah there as well and how many is a member of a dao who has a governance token yeah there's one on the first row two that's good stuff that's good stuff no so i think in general it's a good mixer so just to also get get things started i think we will go and take it pretty easy try to give the high level perspective give over you what defy and dawa is also but first of all we have jason payne here from schnoodle then we have jonathan emmanuel from senate chain and then we have sorry for a pronounced nation but evinia brashvina from hackin try to feel free to adjust it so guys please make an introduction to yourself what you do sure so i'm the founder and cto of schnoodledow which was launched in july last year um and my background is i'm british i'm a software developer so i created schnoodle which some of you may recognize as being a dog breed so we created in july um as a meme token based on the dog meme craze at the time but we're not a meme token and um so my background is banking and software so i've worked in investment banking most of my time i think we're going to talk a bit more about the project shortly so um one thing i will say is schnoodle is probably the like carlsberg say they are the best probably the best lager in the world schnoodle is probably the only dow in existence and i'll explain more about that uh very shortly thank you my name is jonathan monroe i'm the ceo and founder of zany chain uab um i'm from nigeria but currently based in dublin ireland my background is i'm a full stack developer i code in python php and javascript and uh for zenny chain xenic chain is a blockchain company we are based in venus lithuania we offer two products in general we have a blockchain which is an evm hybrid blockchain that supports smart contracts nfts and differ in general we also have a centralized exchange um the purpose of this rise exchange is to bring together the sapphire part of crypto and the d5 part of crypto under one roof so for the central guys part we offer the sports trading and all everything you can see on the central guys exchange and then on the blue five part we support um decentralized exchange nft marketplace a decentralizer browser in plain terms is just a gateway for you to use the app to interact with all web tree applications hey everyone my name is evgenia i'm co-founder of hacken we're a smart contract auditor um my last last 10 years i'm in cyber security and eight years in crypto seen a lot since some winters and uh yeah we're helping different crypto exchanges crypto wallets device l1 protocols to prevent hacks and find vulnerabilities before bad guys exploit them we've been doing this for five years originally from ukraine now based in lisbon and actively growing our team thank you good stuff i see you have supporters there that's great no suggest just as a start to the ones that are not deep in this one as we're talking about d5 decentralized finance which is you can think about it as traditional financial services such as borrowing lending deroute synthetics whatever only that you use cryptocurrencies as the transfer elements of value and that can also include nfts for that part sourcing and uh jason maybe you can give us an explanation of adal what is it actually yeah so ado as many of you probably know it stands for decentralized autonomous organization and in our white paper if you read it we we talk about the dow problem many of you may have heard of the oracle problem but we came up with the concept of the dow problem and that is most dows and not actually dows in fact i've never come across a doubt in my life because the a endow means autonomous and most doubts require well those in principle require that um the governance aspect is manually um implemented so usually if if the dow uses snapshots for example for the voting for the governance then the team will manually fulfill the change to whatever the governance uh people voted on and that could be a change for the contract and interaction with the smart contract an upgrade to the smart contract etc anything to do with the project and that's principally how does traditionally work um but manual intervention by a person or a team is not autonomous so really they're just decentralized organizations not autonomous not in the way i see autonomy um so when i built schnoodle i wanted to build a trudeau yes i used a meme coin as a backdrop that was really because of the dog craze uh that was going on dog meme craze so that was just to capitalize on on the on the sort of sentiments of the market at the time but i wanted to build the most high-tech dow in existence and that basically means that i as the founder i'm not really an owner i have some tokens it was a fair launch but i'm just a community member and that's what i say to all of our community um we've got one on the front row there puppeteer we've got a couple of team members over there i think there's another holder in here we're just community members that's how we pedal ourselves we're just community members and that's how a dough should be everything's public even the team chats on discord uh when we talk about our backlog um tasks anyone can contribute so i built the protocol i i wrote all the solidity code for the protocol 100 of the code every single line and um i wrote it to be absolutely secure no copy paste of any other tokens if you compare the code in schnoodle to other tokens it's much more minimalistic but it does a lot more because i'm using open zeppelin contracts as the base um to do all the heavy lifting why and reinvent the wheel a dow should be about the business logic about what you're trying to achieve and that's why the schnoodle code when you look at it is virtually 100 business logic what are we trying to achieve and we use an ecosystem of contracts um and this will probably help you understand what a dow should really do so we use a gnosis safe for uh governance we have a small contract called schnoodle governance which manage which is a time lock and that has a 24 hour time lock on it so any change to the contract which is owned by the token contract which is schnoodle which is owned by the governance contract um can only happen after 24 hours um so any upgrades it's an upgradeable contract using the transparent proxy pattern it's an erc 777 for people who know that it's not elc 20 um it's um [Music] voted on by the community through snapshot that's upgrades contract interactions we then use something called the zodiac reality module which is a dell module it used to be called the safe snap down module but what it does is it's an oracle and any votes that are voted on on chain are off chain through snapshot as as many of you know snapshot is off chain voting to save on gas it's executed on chain through the zodiac reality module um execution so that's on chain and it's a simple economic game theory so how do you get off chain votes on chain using an oracle using simple economic game theory i can go into more detail on that later if you have any questions on it but at the simplest level it's someone puts a bond if so if they're lying about what the change was what the outcome of the vote was someone can double up their bond if they are still lying you can double up again so it can go one eighth two eighth fourteenth eighteenth and so on and the person the people is that sound to stop the people who are lying um will not get their bond back we've never had anyone lie about the outcome because it's pretty stupid to lie about the outcome of a vote but the whole point of it is to protect the community that's the idea if anyone lies they're just throwing the wreath away anyway so um um so that that that's why we uh built the dow the way we wanted to build it the way we built it because we wanted to be a true dow and our tagline on our banners is a true progressive dow we're progressive it's true probably the only tr true down existence and i always say um that if every if something is 100 decentralized there's chaos i don't know if any of you are a fan in here of jordan peterson but he often says that put a group of people together you'll find natural order people will look to leadership right so even a completely decentralized paradigm you'll still find people look towards leaders and that and as it happens the community tend to look to the team the founded uh schnoodle as the leaders it doesn't have to be us but we wrote it we know the code inside out or i do the team knows the project inside out so we naturally even though we say we're just members of the community they look to us for guidance and um and and that resulted in me coming up with my favorite saying which is decentralization is a parity between the trusted and trustlessness so you can't have true decentralization and absolute trustlessness it's a parity between those who are trusted and the trust and trustlessness and that means trust is a part of it so crypto is about people so when we talk about dowse we're not just talking about the code and the protocol and what off chain and what's on chain we're talking about the people that make it up the the community and schnoodle has a great community and i've met so many great people here today as well and i'm hoping that they will become part of our community and uh and and you could join a solid community but also a big part of it and this is the last thing i'm going to say before i move on to jonathan uh because he's got some great things to say i've been talking to him for two days um is that um you know the the people really really make um a doubt what it is um and um without the people you you have nothing so uh thank you for listening i'll pass over to jonathan jonathan tell us a bit about your your things that you're working on all right um so basically we're working on um the default part of crypso more like i said before we have an a hybrid chain what we aim to accomplish with that blockchain is to be able to serve um you know the communities that have been forgotten by other big players you understand and with our blockchain we are able to cost that cut down the gas fee on other um like the gas for another blockchain we've been able to cut that down on our own blockchain and we brought it down to about one gig away when there's low activity on a blockchain and when when the peak is high it's around 10 gigaway at most so which is far less than a cent and uh a single block on our blockchain can process up to about 15 000 transactions in a second and the confirmation takes about three seconds so uh for the exchange when i talk about a gateway to web3 what i mean is for our exchange what we've done is bring in the central guys part of crypto and the decentralized part of crypto under one app under one domain so if um the defy in general you understand uh let's say about 10 years 15 years ago when you talk about finance when you talk about transactions it's it has to be carried out by the big players you know if you want to create a bank if you want to create a financial system you have to have 10 you know professional board of directors and all of that but now with defy we are able as normal people were able to perform transactions ourselves you know cutting out the medium and all of that so with our exchange we've been able to provide on the define part we've been able to provide a decentralized app browser and that decentralized app browser aims to connect with hundreds of um webtree applications so on with a single tab on our app or the xrd website with a single tab you should you you swap into the decentralized part and you can interact with hundreds of applications we actually have a lot of interesting products that are currently being built on a blockchain and currently migrating to this um exchange and again the interesting part about this exchange is um it's multi-chain it's the exchange itself is multichained and also our own blockchain as interoperable so it communicates with other blockchain communications polygon avalanche all the evm chains that you can think of it communicates with it and uh with the exchange you tend to interact with different applications like an application that's currently being built on a exchange which is uh a move to end and a place of end token so you having to use the exchange you know why trading trading your normal tokens on the spot side while using the exchange you can you also tend to end those tokens you know why isn't the exchange it's just a place to end and move to to end talking and also for the blockchain the interesting part also about the blockchain is the speed like i say uh a block confirmation takes around three seconds at most uh to confirm and um i think that's that's basically it's very very interesting to hear and when you when you're talking about sort of building the efi and our ecosystem today we we also clearly see that we we are very early right now we we should take that into considerations of where we are in terms of size of markets whatever um diva market in general is 4.8 million wallets i.e not even around four million uses and if we look into nft markets it's like a million users out there globally maybe core community to 300 000 people only so we need to put things into perspective here also in terms of where it is and that we have also seen of course uh very fast growth in d5 in general where you can get six to sixty percent interest of your returns if you take high risk and of course that attracts people to do both frauds rugbles whatever we see and we see of course lots of attention in the market is of course relating to that one because where there's fast money there will always be some that will trick you regardless of his blockchain crypto whatever it might be so i think an important element to also see this landscape is like you guys have been focusing on security elements building the trust there also so it would be very interesting to hear me being a bit more from your side also in terms of actually the smart contract with you as far as we see it as a very important element of sort of excluding quick fix code and fat fingers but actually knowing what is the executing code out there definitely with this hyper growth everyone tends to forget about security and think about that once something happens and with building defy definitely there is risks of being hacked and as far as a project owner you take the responsibility of someone's money it's important to do everything possible to prevent actually future hacks and the responsibility you have and like users investors and other guys and what we do at hacken we help companies on the different layers to protect their products starting from smart contracts different evm or rust-based chains also what we do we do different penetration testing for crypto exchanges and crypto wallets and the next step usually is bug bounty when we attract ethical hackers to help companies to find vulnerabilities so literally utilizing crowdsource poverty spot vulnerabilities because you can have a lot of consultants but still you need more eyes different mindset approaches to find vulnerabilities and that's usually the third step to address security risks and usually the last one should be insurance because if if you've done everything possible inside and something happened you should have insurance in place in order to cover the losses that you might have and what we see from auditing around 50 crypto exchanges including the major one like ftx huawei gatew and a lot of others that still there is so many trivial vulnerabilities like typical one is with race conditions when it's there there is wrong logic behind the transactions and you can just mine crypto because of some different specific of that or for example if you know the email of the user you can easily reset password and brute force code and get success to exchange account there or the most interesting part which is also gdpr involvement where you can get access to kyc data that's what we see from different exchanges that they might have qac done by themselves and it's easy with all this uploading documents making photos to get access to that and then get access to all the passports that you might submit to crypto exchange so before selecting the crypto exchange make sure you you check the security of that and see what they do one of our spin-off projects we actually gather all this data about security of different d5 protocols and crypto exchanges it's called cir.live and what we do we gather proof of their security engagements like penetration testing bug bounty iso insurance and a lot of other stuff and it's also part of coin gecko trust core for example for crypto exchanges so you can easily go to can gecko and change a security tab of crypto project to see what they do in terms of security and yeah make your decision whether you want to go with this product or no yeah and definitely there's a lot of problems on the operations side because as you mentioned we're all people and crypt is about people and the typical bach we see that someone like like this court must miss [Music] different rights to this court and some keys are public or to slack so yeah there is a lot of risk associated not only with the product side but also with people and you need to be sure that you do security awareness trainings within your employees and they understand what risks you have yeah i think that's that's very important to take into the whole consideration how we can grow this landscape so we don't end up by sort of being in a category of only fraudsters and rugged pools in terms of the diva products that is having a valued token element in in some way and it's also a difference between sort of saying building a dao was a core community without a token element that gives you a coin that is volatile compared to just doing that part so in in that matter also you mentioned also the kyc part here you know both in d5 and also on the dial side that has sort of been known towards being the anonymous part of cryptoware you can make sort of fast money towards also doing your swaps without identifying yourself being there being anonymous but how do you guys see that part coming up now in terms of you know as the market grows we will see more and more we see investors and all of these coming in uh how do you see sort of the need there in terms of you know the market core market out there is not necessarily right now willing to identify themselves but do you foresee that that will come up in sort of the years to come and and your perspective around that one that that will be a key element or do you believe that you will still run a dao in a totally call it anonymous way well cryptocurrency doesn't mean anonymity uh that's the first thing that that's that's a fallacy if anyone thinks that um you can be as public as you want and one of the things um that i promoted and and advocated as as part of uh the dao i created schnoodle is that we're fully doxxed um the team has nothing to hide we we are open and transparent in everything and that's um i i had a bit of a brain fart earlier but because i was going to say something before i passed over to jonathan and i i realized what it was now and that's openness and transparency and you've got in a dow you know if you've got nothing to hide or you've got you're not doing anything dodgy then you should be open and transparent um obviously um you want to be secure privacy and security are not the same thing either so privacy personally i i think unless you're doing something dodgy why be private but you should be secure and i made a mistake with schnoodle and i'm not afraid to say it because it's public information but um i i built um a dow that protected it from me so if someone could come into my house and put a gun to my head and take all the holders money i literally couldn't um there's nothing i could do i can't rug my own project i don't have the keys um to uh any part of the project and like i explained earlier it's fully autonomous upgrades are done through the uh dow module the zodiac reality module that i explained earlier um but this is why i'm interested in yev's um security audit because some service her hacking offers is is of of course security audits certic also do it other organizations there's also bug bounty schemes which your organization does right and the one thing i didn't protect schnoodle from even though i protected it from me and the team and its own holders its own community um i i i missed one thing i i missed stupidity me being stupid so i can be stupid i'm not infallible and that's why crypto is about people because people are not perfect and we can make mistakes and like i said earlier i wrote 100 of the code that made me a single point of failure i wrote unit tests who knows what unit tests are yeah okay you should write unit tests around every part of your code ideally right i i wrote an override on an open zeppelin based contract that was just a single line of code and i thought that doesn't need to be uni-tested damn right it should have been it should have been unit tested it's only one line of code my mistake was virtually a typo and last week we released to bnb smart chain and we upgraded the contract and within 30 minutes some bot on the on the blockchain on the ethereum blockchain because we upgraded the contract on both chains um bnb smart chain and ethereum found a vulnerability and drained uh the liquidity we made it back we got it back we we uh we did some clever trickery um with it within the community we got the community together we made we made our treasury money back uh our liquidity money back and we're relaunching on polygon next month but we've come up with uh several sets of protocols that we're going to do before that as in off chain protocols bug bounties programs peer reviews through the community through other solidity developers um 100 unit test coverage and other different various types of checks um and you can't really expect yourself to be infallible even if you think you're the best programmer in the world i don't by the way a lot of people say that i am like i'm the next andre cronier or i am satoshi um i'm joking but uh some people have joked about that and but i i say no i i make mistakes and this was the first mistake i made in one year since we were launched and we've learned from it the community are very strong and that's what you need in a doubt you need a strong community and the way you get that is through being completely open and honest transparent tell everything as soon as possible and be doxxed look at luna duke juan we all know that story right i think you can just briefly explain it high level to somewhere if they're not updated but i think the majority here knows it material hardware maybe 13 billion dollars wiped off the face of the earth well someone else got it basically um within a few days um i personally lost a six-figure sum from it from my own investors but my own investment but um they didn't communicate duquan sent a tweet every now and again terror labs sent a tweet every now every now and again people were losing their life savings and they were losing faith in the project they were they were stressing there were suicides i think 20 something people committed suicide over the loss of this money this is why those are about people terra labs luna is not a dough but it's a cryptocurrency it's still about people um so i made sure when we lost this money i communicated immediately i was at a wedding that day i released and then i went to a wedding where two hours sleep in between and all the way to the wedding i was communicating with the community i i did a video update whilst i was at the wedding telling my community i i'm distraught i'll figure this out and i did thankfully but um you know um you you can't be that guy you can't be that the guy that leaves your community stranded what he's done now he's released luna 2 what's happened no one trusts it it falls flat on his face it's got no usp ust is removed from the core so it hasn't even got a usp but if people believed in him and trusted him then people might have invested in terror too but he he totally left people in in in muddy water and that's um that's not how to run a dao definitely that you learn this lesson and you will be able you'll wear a bill actually to get some funds back and in next in your next journey you'll definitely do something in the other way and it's good because you know security usually it's something that you think at the last yeah before deploying the contract oh i need audits okay let's go to someone else but you know definitely it's not a good way to do security and you should think about that before you're even starting doing architecture because security should be a part of you of your development life cycle and writing documentation unit tests that's something that we usually discuss a lot with clients and they of course they are in rush in this hyper growth and they don't have time for unit tests and this small lines of codes yeah we just changed a bit opens up a line that's that's usually what we hear and yeah definitely like improving the quality of the products of the coding or architecture helps having unit test documentation and properly what you're going to do because sometimes here projects uh mentioned on the website a white paper they do one stuff in fact we see different functions in the smart contracts and that's a problem because for usual user they don't understand what's going on the contract they invest money there and then it's gone and what we see for like qyc stuff that for last six months i guess it's more teams rather than not because the last last autumn it was like oh my god so many anonymous companies just proton mainly males and all that and you never know who is behind but still they were they were able to somehow get money and what's happened next that's another question but yeah it's good that it's on the right way and we see more regulation uh that's uh needs security and they ask for security for venture funds crypto exchanges ideal platforms they all ask for audits and it's a one step towards secure web three yeah and i think that's also important if you are to build within this landscape that actually set up enough funds to actually execute the smart contract testing but also have the time to get hold of them because like we know it's not easy to get someone who is available in a week notice to get a smart contract review you have to wait six twelve months plus to get someone who actually knows it so that's also a part that you need to definitely include in your project and also for for the material point of view that we have clearly seen from doing also smart contract testing that that the contract of that project might not have any core exploits in it by itself but if you combine it with another third and a fourth and a fifth product you often have sort of people who has done a code within d5 who has not a financial background but they know blockchain or cryptos while someone who knows the mechanism of finance clearly see if i just connect this one with this one and then go then then i can drain the whole of your project without having an exploit in the code so that's also part of the ecosystem that is very important to understand what are you actually building in terms of the product that is more of an extension of the smart contract review per se of code errors also so i think we we have 10 minutes leftish and it seems like there's an audience which is skillful here also so i believe we might have some questions so maybe we should open up for questions from the audience any questions quiet gang there's one hi jason my name is walter my question to you is uh after your event uh how do you build trust back in the community just being completely open and honest like i said um i i woke up i went straight to my laptop that i i i released at 7 00 am um i'd stayed up all night and i went to bed i had to go to a wedding at 12 o'clock um so i had about two maybe three hours of sleep i woke up very excited uh i went to my laptop to look at telegram to see the community talking about the release and well done fantastic came to see people saying um the the token values is tanked the liquidity has all gone from uniform people saying and the devs gone to sleep and uh because i was saying i've got a wedding to go to i've been up all night doing the release testing it with the team the team uh who are here today they were all up all night with me as well and um but they they were they trusted me already they said neo my nickname on the community when he wakes up he'll explain it all it's all fine don't worry about it so they already trusted me they not not a single person thought i'd rub the project right so when i came online i i spent someone even said he was online 15 minutes ago but he's not typed anything i was like yeah that's because i'm looking into it okay right so i was looking into it screaming at uni swap no what's going on my wife was like we've got to go to the wedding i took my laptop as a passenger looking into it and then i finally messaged guys i think we've uh lost our liquidity you know i was open about it um not sure why maybe it's um uh due to the um protocol maybe if i roll back to the previous version it'll be fine but i don't know and then someone pointed out a transaction where they could see a large amount of eth just being sent to a tornado cash wallet i was like okay we've lost liquidity and just i did a video update i did a 30 minute video update do you remember puppeteer we did a 30 minutes update saying with all my emotions on display no editing no cutting just a 30 minute video of me being sorry about what happened not sorry to the as in apologetic but sorry that this has happened like um and and i'll fix it i'll find a solution and people believe to me and you just have to be open and honest um and i found a solution the next day in fact i found a solution do you want to know what the solution was we're launching on polygon next month so we decided to put a position into matic and matic as some of you may know uh rose around 70 in the last week and that was enough to get nearly all of our lost liquidity back but it was in collaboration with the community i didn't unilaterally make that decision we asked the community we deliberated over it on telegram got a lot of people's opinions some people like just go 50 some people like yeah go all in dj move we did we're dog coin after all right so but no we're not anymore but um it was a calculated risk it was a good risk in hindsight it could have gone wrong but we will not make that mistake again jonathan can you slap my wrist don't slap it slap it yeah so i've been punished so but this is what dao is all about that's what strong community is about um um if you join snoodle now and you've probably seen stickers and flyers all over the place even in the toilets if you're a man um over the urinals then um yeah please join because we've learned from our mistakes um we we have uh um a plan of action and uh we're gonna put it together we're relaunching on polygon um we're putting new protocols in place into the uh into the smart contract and the future's bright thanks for your question volta i think it was a great great question and good answer also in terms of that you need to take care of your community that's that's the most important thing because we have also several clients who we're into um to tear luna in some kind of different ways we even had a couple of guys who's building a decks uh who lost almost 80 percent of their funding in it while immediately just responding to the community they understand what's happening actually so i think that's a very important element to take with you if you are to develop within this fear that this is not for sure the last time that something like this will happen because it's a landscape that is under development it's not finished developed so these are instances that will occur we will see more and more things coming up as the community in general grows and and also that i think we should take into consideration that right now it sort of seems like a play learn fail mechanism somewheres while we are also on the other side working with large corporations who is doing sort of the mechanisms of dfi into their supply chains preparing what's coming so i think we should have that in mind also that we at ey we believe that the mechanisms of d5 will become the future of finance and that's not saying the protocols per se that is out there today that is going to run the whole thing but the mechanism in terms of that you will have operationalized supply chains that will use uh the ecosystem of not only a shitcoin ecosystem but you will have a stablecoin which is possibly also issued in a more secure way that we see today but also have the cbdc the central bank digital currency element coming into it and that's what makes it very interesting to see how actors like we work with everything from coca-cola to peyronie to mursk to care for to whatever that is out there who's actually preparing what's coming in three to five years as they see it and you know when just like to give the perspective of uh two and a half weeks ago in davos when the ceo of mastercard was asked the question on panel there do you believe that the swift banking system will be here in five years and his answer was no not in the way that we see today that gives you the perspective that these mechanisms will for sure play a key role of an expanded version of of it so yeah it's an exciting future we have some more minutes if there were any further questions in the back there okay so what is the next step for blockchains to be more decentralized hey i would say our guy in the community to host the value laters because when you open up the vague data to the community to host it makes it um basically impossible for a single organization or a single person to take down the network and you know make changes to read so that's it another question here yep yeah my question is for ishnoodle i know you said it before buddy can you explain it one more time again uh what's so special about schnoodle and why do you believe that you're probably the real only real dao out there yeah uh yeah we can talk about uh off offline maybe later a bit more into depth because uh i i did explain it earlier in um or less full um but um it's it could be hard for uh to understand i don't know how it was received um uh you know but it's um to paraphrase it um it uses a ecosystem of contra con smart contracts to automate the entire process from voting through to deployment so you could write new code of schnoodle submit it on the blockchain um put a vote a proposal to upgrade to that new code that you wrote and and then if people vote on it because of the oracle and the simple economic game theory mechanism um if people like your code it will go through i could have been asleep or at a wedding for example whilst this was happening and i would not know and i'll come back and say oh someone's improved the code so anyone can can change it that's what makes a true down no other does like that as far as i know yeah but that's what i was going to ask shouldn't every doubt be like this and um so there is a risk um you can get 51 attacks you can get flash loans um where people take uh a majority holding of the of the vote it happened to beanstalk recently but the problem they had they had no cool off period um that they the we have a cool-off period it's 24-hour cool-off um there's 24 hours of voting 24 hours on the oracle and then 24-hour cool off um during that cool-off period um there is an intervention that can happen there is multi-sig in place um which i'm part of i'm one of the multi-sig owners but i'm not the only multi-sig owner and we can veto a vote if there's a 51 attack so that is where it goes back to what i said earlier there's a parity between the trusted which is the people at the top of the um the the community and trustlessness if it was purely about trustlessness you could end up with a situation like being stuck so um i think evie dao should be like ours but um understand uh that if they veer from things like cool off periods and things like multi-sig um then they run the risk of chaos which will happen in a purely decentralized place now multisay i don't know if fire blocks is in here uh michael burke from five blocks now um they they approached us they're a diamond sponsor here and they do an alternative to multisig and um that is also something we're going to look at as well because multi-sig is a little bit outdated and has its risks especially if if we're all at a european blockchain convention all the multi-sig owners and uh some man in the balaclava comes in into our hotel room and tells us to give us all our multi-sig keys so um so there's still a risk in theory so um fire blocks has as another solution i'm going to be speaking to them so i've just plugged fire blocks and they didn't even pay me yeah thank you guys we are on time and that's a very good question in terms of take care of the tokenomics understand that one and also understand that authorities are looking into it like only yesterday european commission released a policy paper on those because they see it that you cannot necessarily get away with 40 yourself you need to have some transparency equalization on it so that's a takeaway taken to legal elements for sure when you are moving into either d5 dows play build grow this landscape but don't forget also to take care of the smart contract view and then we will make uh hopefully a financial ecosystem of the future will which will become of defy and also daos so thanks a lot guys thank you