Why DAOs Matter

[Music] hello and welcome back we have a very exciting conversation in front of us why does matter so we have four experts here paul nirvik max and alfonso alfonso i'm gonna give the word to you and yeah enjoy the conversation thank you thank you very much uh well hello everyone my name is alfonso aruz and i'm a research engineer at protocol labs and first of all i want to thank like the european blockchain convention victorian dania for having me here one more year moderating a panel today we're gonna talk about like decentralized autonomous organizations and for me it's one of the most exciting like concepts because of the impact that it can have around like blockchains and web3 and hopefully like our awesome panelists will be able to give us a grasp of what our dows and what how are they used to and let's have a round of introduction max what about you tell us about you hey guys i'm so happy to be here um so i'm maxenfeld i i come from blockchain in a very different way people you know mostly investors or programmers or engineers i made my own currency in 2007 called viral monetary units um it started start being a bunch of art shows with other community-based currencies and other artists working in the same field so i've i've been involved in lots of early blockchain communities and um you know and i've seen the importance of uh of dallas and i helped support it down in uh 20 2019 the first one on eos mainnet and um and from there i got involved this project called alien worlds um they actually made software that was um supporting daos um and that was too far ahead of its time um so they made this game called alien worlds and i'm here representing alien worlds as a community member today um and and hopefully will share some of my uh my knowledge with with the audience today thank you super cool we're gonna learn a lot and what about you paul yeah thanks thanks also for having me um really looking forward to to talk here with with my my great fellow panelists about daois um i i came to blockchain i guess full-time 2017 had a keen interest well before that and when i started to to build up the first products we we basically came across what is thea today so we had a need of transparent and trustworthy data to use this on-chain so it's pretty absent back then in the space and was just a small product of what we wanted to build but we saw that there's um there was a vast interest in using this i guess this is something um uh you see worked out so there's a group of people who have a common interest and potentially need and uh hence they organizing in a certain format this was also a reason why we back then created the as a dial because it's such integral infrastructure to many we thought shouldn't be in the hands of just someone and by building it with the community and the users so trying to integrate all stakeholders we believe this was kind of the recipe for success um yeah idea i'm i'm as a dow member also and uh in charge of the business development part of the um awesome we'll we'll need to go deeper into what you're doing with dallas and how that has been working so far because that's a really interesting use case what about you nirvik yeah so i started my journey back in 2017 uh uh as paul and um joined matic team very early on uh which is now polygon uh so i joined them in 2018 uh and uh and from there on you know kick started my journey into web3 and blockchain uh and now i'm building that list which is uh the idea is to basically create an ecosystem where people can come in uh work together join contribute collaborate um both for you know for users developers and investors that's it's one single point so we're trying to create a uh to fix the coordination game between all three and yeah and i think dao will probably be a big part of this journey um sooner or later but but yeah uh so yeah it's very interesting to be a part of dao and understand how you know other you know the projects that have been the ogs in the space right so you know being part of those uh uh taos understanding the process and it's very interesting to see how people coordinate without being under one uh single uh you know corporate right uh you know it's self-functional thing so it's very interesting to see how it all works yeah and uh really happy to you know interact and discuss the spot thank you awesome and we are mentioning a lot the concept tao but maybe let's start from the basics and what are dials for you how would you define those let's start with paul and like we can do around because when i talk with people not everyone think in the same way about dallas and like what is what are they used for yeah i think this has already changed uh throughout the not so many years we know of stars or tried to define that i think was like 2013 that there's like the first definition of possibly it's it's older whatever i mean i guess um this will change over time so i i myself try to define it fairly loosely in just um trying to bring various stakeholders together in order to achieve a common goal you could argue that the different organizational forms like a corporation or an association which already have i guess a similar definition um i think with dao it's kind of like this hybrid thing where this is not instead of a cooperation association which is defined differently in different jurisdictions by law endows just like this four concept of bringing people together with a common goal um and this is what what i like as a definition for now because back then i think ada was always like trying to codify these goals i think this is when we look at the from a practical perspective today not so much the case so you don't create one smart contract to achieve one goal but you're using tools such as multisig and and and voting such as tools such as snapshots to to organize the dao but um but i think um as smoothly as defined today um i think it should be uh implemented so yeah fairly loose definition on my end here max there'd be anything to add or yeah i i think my definition of a dow changes depending what the audience is i the simplest explanation is it's it's a pool of community resources or i look at it like as simply as a bank account that have shared permissions that can be dynamically changed or changed uh depending on what consensus method the group chooses and i mean it just gets more convoluted and more complex after that right and let's add a new big if you have anything else to complete the loose definition of tao we are reaching so um so what i uh think is that uh it's uh you know dao can be a member of people you know you know they have a common goal uh a common mission that they're working on so it's it's more about the culture that is defined uh more about the you know the uh or you can say the missions that are defined right and if everyone believes in it they work together uh to to move towards the same code right and i think that makes it more interesting uh in sense that um people believe in these ideas uh that that they believe and that they can uh contribute to right it's similar to how peop how human have been uh organizing themselves right uh since the very when the since the very beginning right um so there are uh so there are different ways to uh probably uh you know say that but but i think in in essence it's it's it's very important and uh how people manage and coordinate uh to achieve that single goal that is defined or probably that is shared by everyone so we could summarize like styles as a way of organizing people with the same goal in mind and then then my follow-up question would be what are the use cases like how can we use dials today i think there are several uh use cases uh in in dao right uh and we kept on seeing them evolving since uh since the deafy summer we saw uh tefi uh dao's being built or governance being uh done around devi and protocols the decisions that uh you know what could be the pool what could be the uh next token that can be added or what could be the new pool that can be created right and from there on uh it has completely evolved we have went into nfts we haven't went into meta wars we have went into uh investment dows uh there are grand thous where basically uh you know the og projects like metacarton right they they they have been they have a significant contribution in interior so uh that's a grand out so they provide grants to uh the projects which are which come and join their uh you know kind of like incubator so there are several uh different use cases in it uh not just one right uh but like all of these use cases they seem to be like the ones that are being uh used right now like governance investment pools or all of this can you think of any like more mid-term long-term project like uh or use case that dao's could have uh max paul anything yeah i mean um soaring um i mean storing funds um i've seen a lot of them storing nfts that's a huge one or you know investment ones where you're buying nfts together um you know holding fractions of stuff to diversify a pool of um of resources um but yeah longer term i mean um like some some governance mechanisms that could be used in um government as well i think that's something that's come up recently for me um that you know smaller communities might opt into these and prefer to use these over uh traditional government services so anyway yeah there's this the sky's limit there's no guardrails with dowels they can um they can be used in in most facets of uh society i think um when we look at this evolution of daos we're currently in a stage where we are this is quite experimental right we need to understand actually how how do dolls work so using a very specific scope of walk one one strict sheet for example buying nft and um the closeness to anything which happens on chain because then i guess a dow provides a lot of value because it tao is yes the organizational form but also the tooling around that so so if you can just if the transfer the purchase of the nft for example um is i guess more immediate uh you know failure than um setting up a dow to buy a company i mean we saw this so i think that's exactly the evolution we've seen here so people come together to buy um u.s constitution documents um but that's the first one i think they're getting the nft dollars and so i guess we'll we'll see how these use cases broaden in complexity what to achieve and also what part of uh society they'll they'll cater to um but looking for example something like as reddit i guess as an example of where people come together they're interested in something specific very nichey um i think to to formalize this for example i think every radical threat could be a dollar so you you could argue and um so i think this will will become quite colorful diverse and like grow exponentially and from uh from a more practical practical standpoint uh because we were talking about like people that organized themselves to towards uh the same goal and so on but how would these be implemented practically so i wanna i don't know like ethereum i wanna direct a lot of funds into ethereum because i think it's the future and i want to to to build it out in order to start investing in ethereum and like like in the evolution of the network how would this work exactly or or from your experience how have like taos or how are daos now being built from a practical standpoint and like gathering all the community because they're used to organize communities so how are we practically doing this these days max maybe yeah so with uh with alien worlds the game is was actually this uh educational tool to teach people about dials and i think it's partially because the company that made it uh decoco they had made this amazing software called dak factory um it's dax and dial is pretty much the same thing decentralized autonomous community versus decentralized homeless organization but they made a set of tools that allowed you to mint a community-based token and allowed you to distribute them to stakeholders and then also um you could um you could then vote for who's elected and have terms about the election cycle and um and um etc but when when that was released as a product there wasn't that many users like there was like literally i knew like five people that use the software we all had we're we're like nerds you know we're just like fascinated by these concepts because we knew it was the pinnacle of cryptocurrency uh technology um but at the same time it was like when we went to go present them to people in the real world um we we went to walmart and got to present to them the concept of dolls and they're like well why don't we give our our uh our consumers virtual you know equity of sorts into a product or service it didn't make sense to them so dow's uh in my opinion have been um this this cart before the horse and so these these uh kind of terrestrial traditional based communities are not ready for them yet um but now they're starting to see like oh well virtual assets are gonna have significant value and i think that that's where um that's where it makes sense to start to you know to include these in games and then starting to include them in uh like you know virtual products and things like that as well at least an option for community members participate so um yeah the alien worlds game um within the game there's these eight planets that are accumulating the native token trillium and then within those um at some point in the uh in the future people will be able to be elected and take over these individual um wax-based accounts that have you know a significant value of these tokens accumulating so um so the game is you know didactic tool to not just teach people about about dolls but you know how to be a good community leader how to um you know how to be a politician there's all these other factors that that come out of it but i think that's the right way to do it is um you know have a very solid uh use case and um and build incrementally and offer that to communities and see if they can accept those things paul and eric do you want to add something if not i'm going to start opening two questions from the audience because there are a few like follow-ups to this we can start with questions i think all right so there's one like and it's a really interesting one someone is asking like how do you reason about like the governance mechanisms and the structure that a doubt should have and it really links with what i was asking before which is like how do we practically uh organize ourselves in order to build it out because there are a lot of like a query decisions that needs to be big yeah i i i can just speak a bit from from practical experience so as i said we set up here as a dow so it's pretty easy to just attach three additional letters to something and say you are a dao but unless you have a very limited scope of what you want to achieve with that dial so again back to the example of buying an nft then i think you can be a dow um if you just formulate the governing rules and you just go for it when you have a bit more of a complex project there's kind of this trade-off uh where you initially a dao is not usually like the most efficient organizational form to achieve something so if you want to for example write write a children's book which is 10 pages long and should be should be i don't know goal is to have be very cute and or whatever engaging or selling a lot uh probably a team of three experts caters to the to the goal better than being a dow potentially or faster more efficiently but when you for example want to create something like wikipedia um um a dao can be the superior organizational form because this is just something you can't achieve at that scale with um i don't know with a centralized team and um this is uh i think this is also learning we took at idea so just to kick this off coming back to the question how do you how do you how does the process of creating a dar work i think it depends on the use case if we have a bit more of a complex one as ours where where the goal is not um strictly defined and won't change over time there's an evolution of the goal because you need to adjust to the market and uniques and so on the implementation i believe should be gradual so you start with certain elements of what you want to decentralize and hand over to the community and have them have them participate being in invalidating decisions or actively contributing to the product and this is basically what we did so we saw okay what's an area which works well it's um it's the development the integration of new data sources so we're using third-party tools such as a git coin to reach out to a developer community and they're contributing to the dao as they're building the product and today we basically everything we new methodologies we're deploying they're being reviewed by the community voted upon and you basically roll out different functions where you include the dao and then upon them so similar like like uh for example ethereum you can improve the dow and the product and so this becomes a i guess it's a self-healing and improving um infrastructure so um so so my advice uh when when uh from from the learnings we made uh when creating a dial which has a more complex goal which changes over time is to to do it gradually and involve the community the dao in this process and and have a feedback loop and sometimes things you see okay they they might not work in a decentralized manner perfectly when you read when you internalize something but you provide a high degree of transparency and basically you let people approve stuff if you if you see it's it's more efficient to have them have them done by a dedicated person or team when you bring the transparency to the dao that's just just a couple of um yeah of learnings we we took and um so it's an ongoing process and in in all of these like structure who will be responsible if something goes wrong and like how can i mean what are the means in which you can implement or something to mitigate risks maybe let's start with nirvik and then there's movies i think this is a really good question um so uh depends on uh you know what what is the what is the case that has happened right so if let's say if it's a i mean if it's something that where the the decision has gone towards uh towards in a wrong decision uh wrong direction then i think it's it's it's a fundamental problem like who are making decisions and uh uh and what what does wrong happen over there right if someone is misusing their words or if there is a manipulation or something is happening at the background right um if there is something let's say funds lost then i think uh it's it's again a major problem where who who all own those uh multiface or who controls that multisig or whether was it proved uh by using the power of the word so the uh the power of vote who votes and what is also needs to be very much diverse in in case that nothing happens like that i mean um everybody is responsible who is contributing to the protocol or to the dow uh who are helping in making those decisions right so i i think it's it's more of everyone who is a contributor to the dao or in terms of making those decisions right so the the the responsible the the ones that are responsible for the evolution of the of the dow is i mean are the actual contributors right that's that's your point but then if there's an attack to the doubt like from a technical standpoint max what are your take here like how can you mitigate risk or how who's responsible like you are at your own sake as a user of the dow yeah i think i think it's important to have a contingency plan or some something that like if this happens then you know we will regroup and we'll make sure that a new set of tokens are issued or have some some rules um a lot of dials have um like a user agreement or a constitution or there's there's different ways to kind of like warn um and just kind of get buy-in from the stakeholders so that there are no unreasonable expectations um it's also important to consider that individuals be personally liable and endow depending on which jurisdiction they're in so there's all these other factors i mean if you can register your your you know your dow in some jurisdiction zone have some type of like uh shielded liability and there's other factors there that i think um can you know prevent some um some serious damage to the the board of custodians but yeah those are real problems um there isn't just a straightforward answer to any of that i agree and then like last question uh related to this can we have fork doubts so let's think about like a bunch of new contributors to a dao that they end up becoming the majority and they want to go like against the goals like the initial goals of the of the community or like they they end up voting something that goes against because it's like a rug uh majority that is coming into the doubt like can we have worked out or how would we like prevent all of these um potential problems or potential like rogue uh contributors joining the the job maybe let's start with paul and yeah so um i mean i think we saw all this so i mean there are forks of dao's thoughts of projects which which are um run in a i guess fairly decentralized manner or with no not one dedicated car team and i think we we've seen it's fairly self-healing so um a consists of of stakeholders willing to engage and are usually just motivated if they see that they're building value mid to long term otherwise they wouldn't be willing to participate so i think it's kind of counter rock pool uh um interest so so so a dao requires more than just three actors so um a bunch of stakeholders a few people can just leave it um ideally and they can fork it i think you i think we saw a couple of projects i don't know if they were if they defined as a dao but uh where uh the core development team changed this over time central something like a sushi swap i think which has very i guess volatile history you see that people take over certain roles it changes over time i think it's not defined as a dow but i think um it has a similar um evolution as as uh as a as a dab where multiple stakeholders contributed to and the community changed over time and uh if people are unhappy they will bank the project and create something something new good job i don't know if uh max or newbie you want to add anything else if not um yep let's go yeah so uh um i would like to say i i would like to add one more thing to it um i mean like you can probably and and i think it's uh uh it's the fundamental part of the overall dow how we structure it right it's not just the product it's the community as well so you can probably fork the product but you can't for the community right so it's it's very important to uh to think through uh before uh anything happens right if the community is in in support of of before right and if something bad has happened then i think it's it's a uh it's a good uh way to go ahead with that and and i think if community disagrees with everything that has happened or or people who are trying to you know sabotage or probably take over uh the doubt then i think they can probably go go wherever they want but community won't follow that right so and i think uh community is one of the biggest part of this whole overall process right now um dao can probably have products doc can not probably have products right so if you look at ygg right it's it's a great example right they are redefining the play-to-one kind of thing and uh it's it's becoming very big right now if they don't or you know they'll probably have a app to log in and to connect wallet and claim rewards and everything but there's no particular app in the background right they they are part of uh part of a guild system where they are playing games and earning rewards in return right uh so it's the community which will probably contribute and be a part of it now so i think uh uh you know probably a product can be formed but community can't be right so that that would be my but yeah in the in the discussion that's a really good point i don't know if you want to add something else max here um yeah that was that was a great great answer um i yeah all i want to say is that a lot of like community tokens are just representations of community interactions and engagement so and those are on chains so theoretically someone could say hey you know we're gonna try to extract value from that community by giving them like a one to one or a ten to one token and you know airdrop them on those individuals but if there isn't like a secondary community that is more engaging and more interactive then there will there wouldn't be a takeover um i think there's some cases where there could be hostile takeovers too if it's like a stake weighted voting system um some people come in and they just buy up all the tokens and then there's massive sell pressure because the price goes so high then people could vote their um you know their friends and families members in to run it or whatever so there's all sorts of terrible things that can happen that um need to be thought about when uh when these things are being built out for sure awesome i would like to open a discussion now around like douse to fund public goods for instance like how would you implement a dao to try and fix uh climate change or to start funding open source projects that have like huge vulnerabilities but has just one maintainer so let's start with max like what are your thoughts on dows to fund public goods actually ethereum could be thought as a public good yeah definitely um yeah or funding collective resource pools or things like that um yeah i mean that's awesome a great example is the delegated proof of stake chains on eosio all at the chain layer they all are dowels and the resource is being able to use the network when you know you use eosio code you can launch your own um your own chain and then on there you you know basically when you're staking tokens it gives you a percent of using that network that's a real practical um like use but applying that to public goods or some other benefits i i think the way to go about that would be to do it in the real world first and then overlay the technology appropriately so uh most people feel like or when they hear about this like oh i'm gonna make a dao and then they just like you know once again go cart before the horse they they think the technology will solve their community problems um it's the same thing that people had in the 90s like i need a website for my brand it's like well are you selling anything yet like no it's like well that's not going to magically help you know create your community so so i think you know first building your community uh providing real world actions you know uh needing um a place to soar your community value and your you know your community resources so i think then after you do in the real world have a real engagement with community members providing actual value to your community or whatever you're trying to to help um and then demonstrating value to them um and then you know seeing if the community can accept these advanced tools you know in some cases they probably will not ever be able to use cryptocurrency so um yeah so anyway put the horse in front of the cart let's come back for one moment to the climate change example because like you mentioned that if you first need to build a community and then uh build like the tools to to empower that community do you think that that because i think that there is already uh for climate change for instance a large enough community that wants to fix it but do you think that dao's could empower either like economically or or in any other way like these communities that are trying to fix climate change or or towards a larger goal like climate change but in the real world not that much inside the blockchain space maybe near big pool and then we come back to max okay so um i think um uh you know talking about climate change right uh there are uh several elements uh added to it right there's there's government there's uh there are organizations there are um there are different factors to it obviously the you know investments can be probably raised to support these uh innovations that happen in you know in in supporting uh you know these uh initiatives definitely those can be done but uh i think uh on ground those can't be implemented uh using probably a dow as of now right because uh there are different uh governments and you know corporates are involved um you know there are authorities who are involved in uh certain activities uh relating to climate change and things like that uh um but yeah funding those innovations uh can definitely be uh one part of it where does can really be very helpful um you know uh there are great examples like not talking about you know talking about uh specifically to climate change and those innovations but talking to talking about victory um there are communities like metacartel uh there uh there's bitcoin dao which funds uh you know community goods right so there are these great examples who uh you know this is not something that that has not yet happened right this is uh this has already been there and uh things have already been implemented um but yeah what i meant to say is that investment can be one part of it right investments can definitely be there but uh what happens on ground is is a different case right so uh i think we can't probably go over there but uh but yeah funding these goods uh i think there's already a model there's already a structure out there there are already examples set out right so one can go on and you know fund these uh things right there have been cases where um you know people have been raising funds to help people right uh people have been raising funds uh crypto relief fund is one great example uh which was started by sandeep uh he is the founder of polygon right so it's not a dao but he basically uh raised fund uh where everybody uh there are few people who at the multisig level who are controlling the funds and then uh they are making decisions where to deploy these funds to support uh in the crypto relief right uh so those are some great examples definitely uh funding could be one part of it which can be done through a dow but but what happens on ground is more important and how it uh how the funds are probably you know used in terms of actual implementation yeah absolutely agree i think dao shouldn't be like a self-fulfilling reason to just create one so again it's just an organizational structure so does it really is it the the best possible form to get to get a goal achieved and probably for climate change there are other more performant ways of of achieving this but um uh coming back to to what uh you just said i think um dao's can be as they are right now be a a great way of funding public goods as long as it's probably in a certain proximity so for example um blender foundation being being funded by by decentraland when you see okay 3d modeling you could argue it's kind of a common good to advance a more decentralized metaverse um so i think that that's a great first step but it doesn't really require now to use a dowel within the blend of foundation it's a foundation foundation kind of has a similar potential goal like like a dao if you would structure it um so for for this reason i think we'll we'll probably uh hear more of dao's with long web free specific goals um but but in the end it's just the labeling and um and it it won't look very similar to to the type of styles we see right now cool and max there's a question from the audience for you related with the backup backup plan or the background plan that you could have for dallas if something go wrong and i think it's a really interesting question who would approve these these like backup or or like when you found the uh how who's the one that decides the constitution like all of the rules that would be followed by the doubt and and how can you change them throughout the life cycle for that yeah so you know typically people think of um when they first hear of dao is like oh it's just like a bank account and you can send funds and you can you know maybe send nfts now and some of them but you can also perform um smart contract actions or change smart contract parameters so you could literally add candidates or custodians or board members whatever you want to call them you can add community member voting community members you can whitelist them you can remove them if there's a bad actor and you set those threshold permissions in the same regard you can set your constitution or your um you know user agreement through these these parameters as well so yeah i think i think it's just another consensus um mechanism you would you would add your smart contracts um some of them have it you know out of the box in some cases um so i don't and then with the contingency plan it'd be the same thing like let's say you get hacked um you know if you are running your own token smart contract you could theoretically freeze the hacker's account you know if or freeze that token and that um that that that hacker is uh is utilizing and then in some cases if you wanted to you could um mint or issue some new tokens or and that could would also be through um you know a voting process through the candidates or custodians cool um i think we're i don't know if we're running out of time so i'm gonna ask a really quick one i feel like and let's see we have time for more uh if you could immediately convert any existing company that is running today and maybe publicly traded into a dow what company would you choose and let's do around like you have to all choose one i'd like actually to see wikipedia being a dao i think it's pretty close to one but i was always wondering the incentive structure apparently works right i mean there's there's a lot of content which i i believe is pretty accurate or um but imagine you would create real economic incentives around that so people are i think i think one could grow even faster to to to set some turkey economics around that and you would get rid of the traditional funding model potentially that constantly needs external capital to to survive and fund the the participants um um working working for for the foundation so we have wikipedia nearby yeah so um uh i have i mean like what i believe uh is that let's say uh there's a corporation which is already public right so there are several um people already that that you have to answer to right so you have your investors you have your backers and then you have your uh uh public which is already owning your assets or owning your equity it's some part of it right so uh going into uh uh even before going into dao right there are several things that needs to be fixed uh before going into that uh transition right people have to agree to that transition that whether they want to switch from their equity to token but then again there are several uh there are jurisdictions that comes comes into the place right so there'll be places where tokens are not allowed and equity is allowed right so then again there's this uh a legal thing that comes into the play right so it's pretty hard to convert a um a institution or a corporate into a dow um it can be done in one sense where we when you go out and say okay we are gonna buy uh all the uh all the query does it that has gone out right and we are gonna we're gonna burn the cash and uh take it all up and then take that uh equity back in uh once you have the hold of it you convert it into a dow and then again redistribute it to the people who are interested to take it forward and then max have you had to choose a company um i mean any social media company um i mean it'd be incredible to have like twitter facebook i mean anything that has generated news i feel like um that's been such a major major problem we don't need to get into but um yeah being able to uh moderate through a dow structure um and then i think about people that have gotten close to something like that you look at like steemit um the block or the steam blockchain you look at like what happened with hive a fork from that um yeah i think there's some incredible opportunities there too but yeah i mean it's it's pretty much impossible to overlay those uh um you know they're they're gone down this one path it's almost like it's better just to build it from scratch i don't know how we would even get to the point of being able to overlay these uh these dow tools um on these traditional monologue corporations totally love it fantastic thank you so much for a great discussion i have a very quick question this is from from my side because i know andres and harwich said recently like they've been investing in different different projects and thousands on that obviously they have a huge amount of like tokens and different projects and they won't be able to to take the responsibility they have with all those votes so they are trying to kind of like delegate these votes to people in the community but my question is like how i know it's maybe not that quick question but like how how do you delegate these votes i mean and who should these people be that should be voting you know on behalf of anderson harwich or other investment funds last question very quickly okay uh so uh what i believe is that uh you know there are several people involved in a16z itself right uh they can probably distribute uh the votes or delegate these votes uh to the people who are part of a16c or they can be uh the civil process when uh the compound uh or these protocols were turning themselves into a dow right there are people coming up and saying okay hi i want to be a delegate delegate the tokens to me and then i'll take it forward right so i think uh uh when you have a vision and uh you know the community aligns with it people come up and take the responsibilities uh the same thing happened with ens there there are several delegates in it where people are taking responsibility and saying okay hey let's uh you know we will help you make the decisions uh you can delegate your votes to us so i think uh a16z can probably have a you know a large pool of members who are ready to take up the uh you know initiative it can be internal also it can be outside people also who are coming up and saying uh you know that they would like to take the responsibility and i think it would it wouldn't be a hard decision to make i think it's interesting if the limited partners at some point will will want to have voting power in in in the dow as a as an ultimate bank official owner but i i guess these large holders they have a specific and much increased responsibility towards the dao and they need to reflect what the overall community actually wants otherwise i think this will create uh strong conflicts um as they might also diverge uh very much what the lp wants from uh a6 when it comes to liquidation other things to to a community member who wants to to build and advanced holding a lot of tokens in different dows it becomes very unpractical at some point like in shares nobody is voting i think we're seeing great tools being being built right now which aggregate all the buildings and give context to what this actually can lead to uh so something much more proof to traditional equity so i'm quite excited about that to actually have people doing taking an educated vote fantastic thank you so much guys thank you max thank you mirpiq thank you paul thank you alfonso we need to continue with the next session thank you guys bye-bye thank you thank you so much thank you [Music]